Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: tabun on May 14, 2013, 03:44 am
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I believe the current feedback system, or the way we are coerced into using it, is flawed. Almost every vendor says that you MUST leave them a 5/5 feedback or "they will ban you from buying from them and add you to a 'Vendor's Blacklist'." I've even seen feedback that is 5/5 but the comment says, "I left 5/5 but it should really be a 2/5 or 3/5 because blah blah blah... There are a disproportionate amount of 5/5 ratings and I KNOW not all of these are deserved! If everyone left TRUE ratings and feedback, we could sort the truly excellent vendors from the trash, and possibly prevent situations where MANY people end up getting screwed by a vendor because a buyer looked at 3 pages of 5/5 ratings and trusted that vendor when many of those ratings were not accurate. If there is indeed a vendor's blacklist that is comprised of buyers that leave less than a 5/5 score, I think that's hurting the entire SR community as a whole.
Now I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular, because I too am guilty of leaving a 5/5 when it should have been a 4/5 at most.
Take this for what it's worth whether you agree with it or not, but I CAN'T be the only buyer that thinks like this.
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Or you could stop whining and read the reviews on the forum. Or you could bitch and moan on the forum. Or you could buy your drugs in person.
We have options.
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Or you could stop whining and read the reviews on the forum. Or you could bitch and moan on the forum. Or you could buy your drugs in person.
We have options.
Because after all, what's better than options?
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Or you could stop whining and read the reviews on the forum. Or you could bitch and moan on the forum. Or you could buy your drugs in person.
We have options.
If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem. If you don't agree with me then man up and tell me why. If you do agree with me, then contribute in a constructive way. Or you could just post troll-like comments hoping for a response. See? You too have options.
Reviews on the forum are but one of the indicators of vendor reliability, but can be more easily manipulated by people leaving reviews from shill accounts. I rely a lot on vendor feedback because although vendors can set up multiple buyer accounts and buy from themselves and pad their feedback, it is more of a hassle in my opinion.
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I believe the current feedback system, or the way we are coerced into using it, is flawed. Almost every vendor says that you MUST leave them a 5/5 feedback or "they will ban you from buying from them and add you to a 'Vendor's Blacklist'." I've even seen feedback that is 5/5 but the comment says, "I left 5/5 but it should really be a 2/5 or 3/5 because blah blah blah... There are a disproportionate amount of 5/5 ratings and I KNOW not all of these are deserved! If everyone left TRUE ratings and feedback, we could sort the truly excellent vendors from the trash, and possibly prevent situations where MANY people end up getting screwed by a vendor because a buyer looked at 3 pages of 5/5 ratings and trusted that vendor when many of those ratings were not accurate. If there is indeed a vendor's blacklist that is comprised of buyers that leave less than a 5/5 score, I think that's hurting the entire SR community as a whole.
Now I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular, because I too am guilty of leaving a 5/5 when it should have been a 4/5 at most.
Take this for what it's worth whether you agree with it or not, but I CAN'T be the only buyer that thinks like this.
You are free to leave whatever feedback you wish, and you should honestly not feel forced into leaving something that does not reflect your experience. Vendors are completely free to talk amongst themselves - this is a free community, after all, and they are entitled to freedom of speech like the rest of us. If they wish to keep a 'Vendor's Blacklist' amongst themselves, they are free to do so. Buyers are also free to keep a 'Buyer Blacklist' listing all the vendors that partake in such activity if they wish, so it does work both ways.
If you feel so strongly about it, perhaps consider starting a thread in the Rumor mill forum listing the vendors that you have clear evidence for that do this? Freedom ensures fairness!
Libertas
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You are free to leave whatever feedback you wish, and you should honestly not feel forced into leaving something that does not reflect your experience. Vendors are completely free to talk amongst themselves - this is a free community, after all, and they are entitled to freedom of speech like the rest of us. If they wish to keep a 'Vendor's Blacklist' amongst themselves, they are free to do so. Buyers are also free to keep a 'Buyer Blacklist' listing all the vendors that partake in such activity if they wish, so it does work both ways.
If you feel so strongly about it, perhaps consider starting a thread in the Rumor mill forum listing the vendors that you have clear evidence for that do this? Freedom ensures fairness!
Libertas
You make a good point. I was just looking at the feedback on multiple vendors and noticing a trend where the actual feedback comments didn't jive with the feedback score and wanted to know what everyone else thought about it.
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You are free to leave whatever feedback you wish, and you should honestly not feel forced into leaving something that does not reflect your experience. Vendors are completely free to talk amongst themselves - this is a free community, after all, and they are entitled to freedom of speech like the rest of us. If they wish to keep a 'Vendor's Blacklist' amongst themselves, they are free to do so. Buyers are also free to keep a 'Buyer Blacklist' listing all the vendors that partake in such activity if they wish, so it does work both ways.
If you feel so strongly about it, perhaps consider starting a thread in the Rumor mill forum listing the vendors that you have clear evidence for that do this? Freedom ensures fairness!
Libertas
You make a good point. I was just looking at the feedback on multiple vendors and noticing a trend where the actual feedback comments didn't jive with the feedback score and wanted to know what everyone else thought about it.
As do you, don't get me wrong! Buyers should never feel forced into leaving a rating that is not representative of their experience, but attempting to enforce rules forbidding vendors from having their own policies would mean regulating the market - regulation kills competition and has ruined everything it has ever touched. Silk Road is an agorism based free-market marketplace, so such rules cannot and will not be considered. However, as I stated, freedom ensures fairness so buyers ARE able to keep their own list if they wish.
Regarding feedback scores, they are a little more complicated than what's immediately visible, but you can read more about how they're calculated here:
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/wiki/index.php?title=Feedback_Score
Libertas
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Part of the problem is the way the SR feedback system computes vendor feedback. With an "out of 100" feedback system anything less than 5 of 5 negatively affects the vendors rating.
A cumulative system like ebay or (horror) BMR would be fairer and more accurate, in my opinion.
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Part of the problem is the way the SR feedback system computes vendor feedback. With an "out of 100" feedback system anything less than 5 of 5 negatively affects the vendors rating.
A cumulative system like ebay or (horror) BMR would be fairer and more accurate, in my opinion.
I agree, there are definitely 'fairer' systems out there; however, everything is the way it is for a reason, and I fully trust DPR's decision on making the feedback system the way it is for the reasons that he/she saw fit to do so.
Libertas
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I hope nobody thinks that I'm trying to trash vendors as a whole. That was not my intention. I have dealt with a couple of vendors on here that absolutely deserve 5/5 in all categories and then some. I believe in an uncensored system as well. I think that I may have had the wrong idea about the vendor blacklist. I was thinking it was a system-implemented feature where any vendor could add a user and therefore effectively prevent that user from ordering from anyone else rather than just a special thread in the vendors-only section of the forum.
Regardless, I still believe what I originally said about the feedback scores not being entirely honest, and I for one will strive to leave a score which is 100% representative of the actual transaction as a whole. I guess I can only do my part and hope that everyone else does the same. I'm still a n00b here at SR compared to many, but I'm learning more each day.
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I hope nobody thinks that I'm trying to trash vendors as a whole. That was not my intention. I have dealt with a couple of vendors on here that absolutely deserve 5/5 in all categories and then some. I believe in an uncensored system as well. I think that I may have had the wrong idea about the vendor blacklist. I was thinking it was a system-implemented feature where any vendor could add a user and therefore effectively prevent that user from ordering from anyone else rather than just a special thread in the vendors-only section of the forum.
Regardless, I still believe what I originally said about the feedback scores not being entirely honest, and I for one will strive to leave a score which is 100% representative of the actual transaction as a whole. I guess I can only do my part and hope that everyone else does the same. I'm still a n00b here at SR compared to many, but I'm learning more each day.
It didn't come across that way at all, tabun. :) If you have an issue or a gripe with something or someone, you're definitely right in bringing it to the forum for discussion!
I've been here since very close to the beginning, and I'M learning more each day too. We can never stop learning!! Best of luck with your travels on the Road! :)
Libertas
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Or you could stop whining and read the reviews on the forum. Or you could bitch and moan on the forum. Or you could buy your drugs in person.
We have options.
probably one of the people that do that.
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could the feed back system not be anonymous?
I know vendors dont like this.. but as all vendors would be on a level playing field it shouldnt effect them overall.
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This is already a well documented concern.
The reason being is because the way the feedback system is calculated anything below 5/5 is going to lower the vendors rating. There are a bunch of threads complaining about the SR feedback system, but it is what it is.
This is the reason why people give 5/5 feedback even when the comments reveal it should be 4/5 or 3/5..
For example..At one point I had 90 transactions that were 5/5, and was at 100%. A buyer left 4/5 feedback and my rating dropped to 93%
And feedback should definitely not be anonymous. I want to know who thinks what about my product, and decide if I would like to continue business with them.
Personally I think the way the feedback system is calculated needs to be revisited. But as most suggestions, there is just no time for DPR to do them. Just having the site is a blessing, we should be happy for that at least.
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And feedback should definitely not be anonymous. I want to know who thinks what about my product, and decide if I would like to continue business with them.
in other words you want to ban them if they dont give you 5/5.
If it was anonymous it would be a level playing fields. No where near as many vendors would be 99% or 98%.. the average vendor may be 70%.. but thats ok, coz all the other vendors would have to deal with the same issue.
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I support your point tabun. I've been here just over a year, with 80 transactions. (though I change forums names for security reasons). I've been noticing this 'trend' of kissing the Vendors ass with a 5/5, saying (for example) "Apparently it was shipped on Friday, even though it was marked "in transit" on Monday, but at this price, I guess I can't complain"
I disagree. The shipping 5 days after being marked 'in transit' for me, is "minimum" -1 point! If not more.
I guess the higher my stats got, the more confident I was to be critical of poor vendor performance. I rarely have to "go there" but I'm never afraid to
Their 'Big Scary" Blacklist? Doesn't scare me. When your stats speak for themselves. 0 refunds 0 auto finalizes, I would think another Vendor finding your name listed 'once' on some arbitrary list, would at least look up the Vendor in question, and find that it was the Vendor, who should be on a blacklist for being so petty as to not being man enough to own up to his failings. A truly good vendor, would make himself a better vendor for it, and also can court you with an extra bit of what you ordered, in return for you changing it back to a 5. (I've had it happened, but still said "I had a problem, but the Vendor made up for it"
THAT is the way it SHOULD work!
Very legit and worthwhile topic.
Also those 0 refunds, with 80+ transactions, should tell you I had to "eat a few" here or there. Some things get lost for whatever reason, some post worker, stole your goodies, etc. - Some were FE only, and I'd dealt w/them before, it got lost one time, and their attitude was "I can't help what the mailman does after it leaves my hands". So I just let it go. I even ordered again, and it was successful,.
Another one I took to resolution. One of those India Benzo dealers, I've since learned to 'avoid like the plague". When I complained that I only got 80 out of 100 pills, as the DVD case looked like it was damaged, and the 20 pills must've been that powder that disappeared into my carpet upon opening. (no
baggie!-just loose pills inside a DVD case >:() - Bad way to ship, when most Indian benzos are cheaply made, with lousy binders, and crumble easily.
His counter offer was "I'll give you 20 extra with your next order". - I wasn't ordering his shitty Indian pills again, and said I wanted a 20 % refund.
The next day, on the resolution screen, the Vendor was screaming SCAMMER repeatedly - just like that- in all caps! Reminded me of an ambulance chasing lawyer.
I wanted to get away from this cheap bloodsucker from who knows where ASAP!. Something about expatriates living abroad (not exactly a ringing endorsement) So I decided to Finalize, and take my lumps. This guy reminded me of one of those crazy ex-girlfriends, that you just RUN not walk away from. An egomaniac with an inferiority complex, what seems hell bent on burning anyone who doesn't like them. - I left a 3/5- and said- "Got all bent out of shape when asked for a refund for damaged pills. I won't be back. ( Never have! Never will! ;) )
The morale of the story? You can't cry over SPILLED MILK !! ;) (I know someone got that)
-Chip
PS - I've left FB for vendors that were repeatedly excellent, yet had one or two recent bad FB, where the reason given didn't justify less than a 5/5 (didn't like the stealth for instance-yet they got what they ordered as advertized), and I've gone so far as to leave my forum name in the feedback, to show solidarity. I've done it more than once.
PPS - I've seen vendors come back after getting many 3/5's even 1/5s, (like a dozen!) back in Dec, and they now are at 99%. So it really only hurts, if you have low sales. After a while, it's possible to get back to 100%, even with several 3/5's and 1/5's. - Just gotta boost your sales volume!
Great thread! :D
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The feedback system is corrupt as you like - that's why I use the forums to suss out the good vendors from the bad.
I won't name any names here but just recently a package didn't arrive and I was basically bribed into giving them a 5/5 making out it did arrive and was excellent quality on the conditions they fully refunded me. Of course I wanted the full refund so I accepted the bribe - but in hindsight it fucking sucks.
So I usually ignore the ratings and use the feedback - I've seen ratings of quality products getting 1/5, the chances are this is from rival vendors. Like I said the whole feedback system is corrupt.
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I won't name any names here but just recently a package didn't arrive and I was basically bribed into giving them a 5/5 making out it did arrive and was excellent quality on the conditions they fully refunded me. Of course I wanted the full refund so I accepted the bribe - but in hindsight it fucking sucks.
If this ever occurs you should state it to the administrator dealing with the resolution, along with any evidence you may have to support your claim. As it is, buyers and vendors should not be resolving things outside the resolution center - they are free to, of course, but when that happens issues like the one above can arise. During a resolution, keep EVERYTHING inside the resolution center.
If the administrator had seen what was occurring I have no doubt that you would have received your full refund, and the vendor would have been chided for attempting to coerce you into leaving 5/5.
You can return and edit your feedback at any time (within 3 months from the date of finalisation) by clicking:
Account -> view feedback -> edit
None of you should be feeling pressured into giving a vendor 5/5 on a transaction that is not satisfactory. Don't let vendors intimidate you - they should be treating you with respect at all times, and they are actually obliged to do so by the terms of the Seller contract that they agreed to abide by upon purchasing vending privileges.
Libertas
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And feedback should definitely not be anonymous. I want to know who thinks what about my product, and decide if I would like to continue business with them.
in other words you want to ban them if they dont give you 5/5.
If it was anonymous it would be a level playing fields. No where near as many vendors would be 99% or 98%.. the average vendor may be 70%.. but thats ok, coz all the other vendors would have to deal with the same issue.
No..not that at all..
It's for the people who say "DUDE THIS BUD IS SHIT REFUND ME 50% OR I WILL LEAVE YOU 1/5 AND DESTROY YOUR NAMES ON THE FORUMS" and then try and order from you again.
If feedback was anonymous too many people would take advantage of it.
This way I can contact the buyer, see what the problem was, and try and resolve it.
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I think the feedback system works quite well especially the weighted feature which means a regular customers review has more impact than multiple fake buyer accounts set-up by a dubious vendor to manipulate their stats.
The thing which needs improving is the way people use it. Be honest with your reviews and don't leave feedback like FE, even if you have, wait until it arrives or enough time for it to arrive before passing judgement.
I now avoid all vendors that have FE through the majority of their feedback as it simply can't be trusted. I also won't be blackmailed into changing my feedback despite the threats of fox intestines and small house fires from the last vendor who scammed me..
Escrow and your honest feedback will help route out the scammers and clean this place up to make it a better place for everyone.
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I believe the current feedback system, or the way we are coerced into using it, is flawed. Almost every vendor says that you MUST leave them a 5/5 feedback or "they will ban you from buying from them and add you to a 'Vendor's Blacklist'." I've even seen feedback that is 5/5 but the comment says, "I left 5/5 but it should really be a 2/5 or 3/5 because blah blah blah... There are a disproportionate amount of 5/5 ratings and I KNOW not all of these are deserved! If everyone left TRUE ratings and feedback, we could sort the truly excellent vendors from the trash, and possibly prevent situations where MANY people end up getting screwed by a vendor because a buyer looked at 3 pages of 5/5 ratings and trusted that vendor when many of those ratings were not accurate. If there is indeed a vendor's blacklist that is comprised of buyers that leave less than a 5/5 score, I think that's hurting the entire SR community as a whole.
Now I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular, because I too am guilty of leaving a 5/5 when it should have been a 4/5 at most.
If you feel like the vendor deserves 2/5 and you put 5/5 then the fault is yours: or you are a coward or you are so much a slave of your drugs that you stomp your dignity, both of which are naturally pathetic.
I would never give 5/5 when s/he deserves 2/5 to someone just for fear that s/he will put me in the "vendor blacklist", never ever, even if that would mean that I cannot buy anymore in the SR. I'm sorry but certain things are not negotiable and when you begin to negotiate with your dignity you are much better death than alive.
If people instead of bending forward and accepting everything just to have their drugs would instead fight for their rights this would not happen (and the same happens in society with jobs and everything else).
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If you feel like the vendor deserves 2/5 and you put 5/5 then the fault is yours: or you are a coward or you are so much a slave of your drugs that you stomp your dignity, both of which are naturally pathetic.
I would never give 5/5 when s/he deserves 2/5 to someone just for fear that s/he will put me in the "vendor blacklist", never ever, even if that would mean that I cannot buy anymore in the SR. I'm sorry but certain things are not negotiable and when you begin to negotiate with your dignity you are much better death than alive.
If people instead of bending forward and accepting everything just to have their drugs would instead fight for their rights this would not happen (and the same happens in society with jobs and everything else).
Yes, as I've said in the thread, I admittedly left feedback when I first started here that was higher than they deserved, and I also know better now and will not be doing that in the future. (Also stated in the thread)
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People really have to take a look at what Atlantis has done with feedback. Seriously, DPR if you are looking at this, take heed!
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Yes, as I've said in the thread, I admittedly left feedback when I first started here that was higher than they deserved, and I also know better now and will not be doing that in the future. (Also stated in the thread)
The "you" was not meant as you in the personal sense, but in general terms. It was meant for everyone that does so. I did read what you wrote but still it's always good to let know to people that it is against themselves primarily if they leave false feedback for whatever (personal or not) motive.
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I dont know about other vendors but my account reads
If you order from me and give me a rating under 5/5,
without contacting me first and giving me a chance to fix the issue.
I will refuse to deal with you again.
But I have had issues with people leaving a lower rating because something was not right. Mind you, they did not tell me it was not right, they just left the rating and moved on.
Then there are the Ass Hole buyers. I had one who claimed the package never arrived and messaged me about it. The DCN showed delivered but on the chance that it was delivered to the wrong house, I sent him a free replacement.
He then left me a 1/5 saying that what I sent him was fake.
So I can see how some vendors can be put off, I got a lot of stuff like that when I first started. Lots of people threatening to leave bad feedback if I did not send them free stuff or if I did not return all their bitcoins.
MY guess is that a lot of these were written when the vendor was new. I do not agree with leave 5/5 or else but leaving it without giving the vendor a chance to make it right is just wrong.
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I found that vendors can hide the honest feedback. All they do is put that particular listing in stealth, then create another listing. Then the feedback is hidden from public view. I don't think that's really fair.
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The problem with the feedback is that it's totally polarized, but this is not a problem with SR as it is the problem with an unstandardized 1-to-5 feedback system. It's too easy to get a 5 or a 1, when the reality is rarely at those extremes.
What would be awesome is if the SR feedback system calibrated each person's feedback against the history of his or her feedback. In other words, positive feedback from a person who always gives 4 or 5 would have less weight than positive feedback from a person who more accurately rates vendors from 1 to 5, and vice versa. This would encourage people to give feedback that is more fair -- with 3 being a true average, 5 being exceptional, and 1 being totally dismal. I agree it's pretty difficult to pick out "good" vendors when pretty much everyone is >90.
I don't think anonymity would really be a problem -- most online review sites on the clearnet are more or less anonymous to the establishments that are being rated despite there being a real person behind the review. Vendors should not have to fear anonymity because the proportion of honest reviewers greatly outnumber the asshats who leave negative feedback for no reason. They should be encouraged to deliver top notch service even to people who haven't had great experiences with them before. Ideally, the site would flag reviewers who frequently leave poor feedback and reduce the weight of that feedback.
While we're dreaming, it would be great to have multi-dimensional feedback - stealth, speed, quality, communication/service all being factored into an overall rating.
But, I also agree with whoever mentioned that the fact that SR is around is amazing enough, and resources are much better spent at ensuring the security of the site and its customers.