I have no problem taking your words and evidence so far that "pedophilia was widespread and socially accepted for most of human history". The same can be said of many horrific human behaviors including, off the top of my head: slavery, bear baiting, vivisection, circumcision (esp. female), genocide. Our historical views of these practices were clearly incorrect, and the same can be said of CP.
Against Wadozo I never argued that the historic normality of pedophilia made it morally acceptable, I merely argued against his claim that it has been frowned upon throughout history. If he said that slavery has always been seen as immoral and I showed him citations that it was once very common, it would not mean I support slavery. I think 14 is a good enough age of consent and that is the age I have always argued for, that is not legalization of active pedophilia.
When arguing about a disturbing topic such as this, it is *your* responsibility to make clear the context in which you are operating. As I said above, it appears that you simply prefer being controversial over being clearly understood.
I have said multiple times in this thread that I am only arguing that it should not be illegal to look at CP, maybe you should try reading the thread some time so you can understand my position before trying to attack it.
The problem in my mind, hm? I'm fairly sure I granted you that "CP viewing" may indeed be a valid form of preventing pedophiles from acting on their desires. Let's see:
Yes your mind clearly has problems with detail analysis and it is leading you to irrational behavior that causes great harm to many people when society gets behind it. If you think CP viewing is valid outlet for pedophiles and will lead to less molestation, why are you against making it legal? Because you want more children to be molested??
Perhaps if you had a proposal to effectively halt to all new CP production, you would see less vitriolic reactions to your position
I guess that's a pretty soft way of saying it. If it wasn't clear to you before, it should be now.
Yes please be clear with your language from the start in the future, I do not want to try to decipher your implied meanings and will take everything you say at face value like any rational human would do. Saying that people would react better to me if I had a proposal to halt all production of CP does not in my mind translate into "viewing CP could be an effective outlet for pedophiles and lead to lower levels of molestation", so if that is what you mean then just say it.
But we're still left with the problem of CP *production* which, regardless of your attempts toward "seeing the trees", ignores that those trees currently exist in a putrid and very much thriving forest of suffering and despair.
Sure we should cut down the bad trees. I never said that it should be legal for people to molest kids or to produce CP. You want to spray agent orange on the entire god damn forest because some of the trees in it are bad.
This must be solved or at least positively addressed before we can even begin to have the conversation you're attempting to have. If you don't see this you should really sit quietly for some time and contemplate why, because it is *clearly* true.
Talking about ways to prevent the production of CP is largely a different conversation than talking about why it should be legal for people to view CP. The only relationship they have is the studies showing that when people are allowed to view CP, rates of child molestation decrease. You are trying to change the subject, and imply that I argue something I do not (that CP production should be legal), and therefor are kind of engaging in a strawman fallacy.
Please read what I wrote and you quoted again, this time for comprehension. I never said hebe/ephebo-philia are mental illnesses. I said that acting excessively attaching, obsessing over, and acting on those kinds of thoughts are mainfestations of a malfunctioning brain. Ultimately it's the acting that's the real problem here, but the compulsions and obsessions obviously precipitate the actions.
The mental health community does not consider acting on hebephilic or ephebophilic desire to be the manifestation of a malfunctioning brain. No mental illness listed in the DSM has attraction to or sex with those ages 14+ listed as a criteria for diagnosis. Sex or fantasies of sex with those 13 and under is a diagnostic criteria for pedophilia, and actual mental illness, the actual manifestation of a malfunctioning brain.
See the immediately above, and do try to refrain from obsessing over my (admittedly beautiful) ass.
See the immediately above. Having sex with 14+ year olds is not a diagnostic criteria for any \\ mental illness recognized by the professional community, it is only seen as a manifestation of mental illness by lay people.
Pictures of Jews being tortured and killed during the holocaust depict a historical event.
Pictures made with cameras inherently depict historical events.
Playing games with language isn't going to wrangle you out of this corner. You are intentionally misinterpreting my meaning here, but allow me to restate: "Pictures of Jews being tortured and killed during the Holocaust depict a significant and recognizable historical period of human history in which millions of humans attempted to systematically and permanently strip an ethnicity of its dignity, livelihood, and erase it altogether."
How am I playing games with language? You specifically said that a differentiation between pictures of the holocaust and pictures of child molestation is that pictures of the holocaust depict things that happened in the past. I was merely letting you know that all cameras take pictures that depict things in the past, inherently, it is impossible for a camera to take a picture of the immediate present due to the fact that the speed of light is finite, and also the future can not be photographed from the past either. As to your new argument, I already explained that war crimes continue today just as child molestation continues today, and instances of war crimes happened in the past just as instances of child molestation happened in the past. I do not see this differentiation you think you are so clearly showing.
And you believe that the intent behind most CP propagation is to teach each other a lesson about the dangers of human potential when compassion is not held as a high virtue?
I think in many cases people who are against CP have illegally downloaded CP at some point in their lives and confirmed to themselves why they are against it. In fact, many people on this forum who have condemned others for looking at CP have started their argument against people looking at CP with "I looked at CP and it was fucking sick, you should not be allowed to look at it!". But I do not think that it is the primary motivation behind people looking at CP, nope. Do you think if people look at pictures of the holocaust and celebrate them because they are neo Nazis, that they should then be charged with war crimes? Or does it not matter the intent with which a person looks at images of the holocaust with?
You simply do not get to invoke historical documents of collective/species level atrocities (e.g. Holocaust, war crimes, etc) as being equivalent with those committed against preyed upon individuals (e.g. child pornography). This is veiled domain switching, and it undermines anything you attempt to build upon it before your argument ever leaves the gate. In short, you have failed to carve out a valid starting position upon which your arguments can stand.
Fine, forget the holocaust, it is legal to look at the corpse of an individual who was murdered by a serial killer. If I look at such pictures does that make me a serial killer, someone who deserves to go to jail and be treated like a serial killer? What if somebody has a mental illness that causes them to be sexually attracted by dead bodies, if they look at and masturbate to the picture of a person who has been killed be a serial killer, are they then the same as a serial killer?
Children continue to be harmed by war crimes.... (the holocaust is an individual historical instance of a behavior)
Yeah, and that continues to be wrong too.
Yeah, and it continues to be legal to look at the resulting pictures, and nobody thinks we should censor the pictures.
Here you go domain-switching again. You open by referring to a collection of individuals who have already been harmed by saying they are not being harmed by new CP production...COMPLETELY ignoring that there are a continuous flow of NEW individuals being harmed by CP production. You're a smart person, this much is clear. Your empathy, however, leaves much to be desired. This should bother you.
You are the one who set the framework. Your claim was that the difference between pictures of the holocaust and pictures of molestation is that pictures of the holocaust were taken in the past and that the people depicted are no longer being executed. My counter argument was that CP pictures were all taken in the past as well, and many of those depicted are no longer at risk of being depicted in child pornography any more. Are you ignoring that there are still new war crimes being carried out, and that NEW individuals are being harmed by NEW war crimes which result in NEW pictures of war crimes? You tried to differentiate two things and failed to do so, that is all.
Empathy is something that is good to have just as it is good to have some vitamins in your body. Without any empathy you suffer from a disease. On the other hand, too much empathy is poisonous to your mind, just as having too much of a vitamin in your body is poisonous to your body. Having too much empathy leads people to irrationality and rabidness. Most people could stand to have a bit less empathy, and it would be better for the entire world if people had a bit less empathy. That said, I place the empathy that I have with the people who are being systematically hunted down, imprisoned for decades and labeled as sex offenders for life for merely viewing photographs. I think it is better to try to help these people than it is to try to help people who were molested in the past and who are impossible to help without a time machine.
If you've successfully made this argument, I have failed to see it. Please point it out to me.
You: A differentiation between pictures of CP and pictures of the holocaust is that the holocaust took place in the past and no new people are being affected by it today
Me: Pictures of CP and of the holocaust both took place in the past, and in many instances modern CP production has no affect on those who were depicted in CP in the past, just as modern war crimes have no affect on those who were depicted in the holocaust
How do you know that these people are not continuously harmed by the propagation of the CP in which they are involved? How do you know that the very fact that CP continues to be produced (i.e. children continue to be abused in this way) is not increasing the suffering of these victims? Where is your support for this claim?
Where is your support for the claim that CP production today affects those depicted in CP production of the past? A simple proof of my claim is that some of the people who have been depicted in CP in the past are now dead, so modern production cannot possibly have any affect on them.
As for people being continously harmed by the propagation of CP in which they were involved, well I think that this is largely a crock of shit as well. This is a number one argument of those who oppose the legalization of CP viewing. At one end we have the delusional people who say that every time a picture of CP is viewed, the child depicted in the picture is molested all over again. There is not much I can argue with these people because they have no rationality, it is like trying to argue with religious people that God cannot make a rock so big he cannot move it and also move it so therefor he cannot be all powerful. It is impossible to argue with people who disregard reality. On the other hand some of the people who try to be more sophisticated and less obviously retarded try to say that just knowing their CP is being viewed causes stress to the children depicted in the CP. This is an argument I can at least bother trying to argue against, as it is not based on voodoo magic. In these cases I would say that it doesn't matter if people continue to view the CP or not, the child will always have continued stress due to the *possibility* that somebody will view the CP they are depicted in. Let me go back to my PIR example.
Some child molester produces CP of Alice and uploads it to an encrypted keyword search server, tagged with keywords that indicate that it is child pornography. When Bob downloads the CP from the encrypted keyword search server, the server cannot tell that Bob is searching for CP or determine the files returned to him. Now Alice knows that she has had CP of her uploaded to this server in the past, and she knows that people could in the future download it, but she is not capable of knowing that Bob downloaded it. I argue that the mere possibility of the child pornography being viewed is what causes stress to Alice, the fact is that Alice is not capable of knowing that Bob downloaded CP featuring her, and she cannot tell if anybody has ever done so. For all she knows nobody ever searched for CP on the encrypted keyword search server, and nobody ever has seen he picture. But this is not going to remove her stress, because for all she knows somebody has downloaded and viewed her CP. The stress of Alice is not caused by Bob downloading CP featuring her, it is caused by the possibility of Bob or anybody else downloading CP featuring her, and this possibility was created by the person who originally took the photograph of Alice. So the cause of Alice's stress is from the producer of CP, not the people who are viewing her CP. If the stress of Alice is from the people viewing her CP and not from the possibility of people viewing her CP, then it makes sense to completely legalize the viewing of CP so that people viewing it are not arrested and Alice is kept from having awareness that people are viewing her CP. Currently the police inform Alice every single time they arrest someone for viewing CP featuring her, and this behavior of the police would according to you be causing a great deal of stress to Alice, and if it is not the possibility of people viewing her CP that causes stress to Alice then it is fine for people to view her CP so long as she never finds out about it (which is why the police should stop telling her).
So either
A. The stress Alice has from the propagation of her CP is the fault of the person who produced the CP, not the fault of the people viewing the CP
or
B. If the fault is on the people viewing the CP, then it is not the possibility of people viewing the CP that causes Alice stress but her awareness of instances of people viewing her CP, and therefor CP viewing should be legalized to protect Alice from this awareness
Which is why I said "effectively". I'm not naive enough to think we can stop it completely.
So do you want to talk about ways to combat CP production? Because I have some ideas for this as well, but I think this is a somewhat different topic. I think I actually have some good ideas to combat the production of CP though and wouldn't mind sharing them.
Again the problem is "where does the CP come from?". I'm all for destigmatizing hebe/ephebo-philia and possibly even pedophilia in THOUGHT form, and perhaps treatment of the impulses indeed should involve the viewing of CP while under the care of a licensed, scientifically credentialled professional who ultimately bears some responsibility for the actions of the patient. When thoughts become actions, however, that's where we have a problem and that's where your argument continues to fall flat.
hebe and ephebo philia are not even stigmatized in most of the world, especially ephebophilia is legal to act on in almost the entire world including partially in the UK and Australia.
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You raise all these allegations against me which as I stated, were ALL LIES, and days later you still haven't replied to them with any proof to back them up. 
One only has to read the first few pages of your post history and you'll see the absolute shit you post, mostly attempts to bag other members out with your pretentious, obnoxious points of view, all of which fall way short of the mark. 
.