Silk Road forums

Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: TravellingWithoutMoving on February 14, 2012, 06:25 pm

Title: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: TravellingWithoutMoving on February 14, 2012, 06:25 pm
Aside from guns and weapons what are the outright unethical business practises / services and items that have no place on Silk Road?
pls  list, it should be quite obvious ones that stand out and probably don't need to generate arguments spanning pages and pages...

my list :
cyanide -discussion or trade..
"selling your soul"
buying and selling of organs or body parts {animal..human...}
paedo's trading in / researching underage porn / sex
anything relating to smuggling of people or the slave trade
radioactive chemicals
bomb making


serious suggestions pls....
 :o
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: tordemon on February 14, 2012, 07:37 pm
If I understand correctly, guns are justified because they can be used in self-defense.
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: nicehs2 on February 14, 2012, 07:51 pm
hitmen and similar services to inflict harm on ppl.
general things that are possibly used for or related to terrorism and things to harm the innocent, example production or info on virus/bacteria, or certain chemicals that are most likely for use in weapons/bombs/poisons.
ddos n such services that can be used for big dmg or death by keeping vital online infrastructure down
politically influencing services/corruption and such
stolen personal info like ssn,names,emails,cards or such
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: watmm on February 14, 2012, 08:04 pm
Things become grey when you consider whether something is "most likely" used for ill purposes.
The line for me is pretty black & white, i.e. involuntary victims must be involved in the production or use of the product/service.
Note the words involuntary and must.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but Cyanide, bomb making materials, and radioactive chemicals have non harmful uses?
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: TravellingWithoutMoving on February 17, 2012, 12:00 pm
- hacking etc is probably something which is part and parcel of SR and security although could be discussed offline which i think is already practised.

-stolen items and CC's, ...suppose as long as items are sold as items seen should cover this...CC's could be a banned item -again not sold in public view is the idea...

- terrorism, hitmen               -seem to be new points.
  bio-chems is now probably an expansion on cyanide and / or "radioactive" which ...perhaps all 3 need to be the banned items....


thanks so far...
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: grahamgreene on February 17, 2012, 01:00 pm
I don't mean to cause any conflict here but why exactly do you want things banned so much?!
An excerpt from something you said yourself in another thread: "...so long as firearms are allowed and discussions on cyanide and where to source it {which 99.9% of SR forum think is fine..}..." (http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=12043.msg114269#msg114269) - if most people seem to take an agorist view on items such as cyanide, why are you looking to get it banned? Simply because you personally disagree with it? (I use cyanide as a representative example in this case.) I understand that you may have moral views on guns etc. which may cause you to disagree with them being listed, but just because you disagree with them doesn't mean they shouldn't be available to others who do agree with them. One may argue the point that listing guns may draw added LEO attention to Silk Road, and one may indeed be right, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there will be any increased risk to Silk Road - if they can't bust us now, what would make one think that they could bust us then?

Getting back to the disagreeing with a particular product - I myself have an issue with heroin because of how the abuse of it by a member of my extended family has impacted on those I love, and personally I would never use it. However, I wouldn't like to see a ban on the sale of heroin because it would go against the agorist ideals of Silk Road, and because it is every person's personal choice what they do with their own body.

Cyanide, for one thing, should definitely be available - if this is an issue about suicide / poisoning, there are plenty of ways to do both without using cyanide. It also has many other uses apart from the historical 'holocaust era' use. Silk Road is supposed to be an agorist marketplace, and this is an agorism-centred community, not a restrictive government-led nanny state. SR/DPR stated as much regarding defeating government restriction in his State of the Road address. Why substitute a government-imposed restriction for a restriction imposed by another entity?!

Radioactive chemicals and bomb-making should also, in my opinion, be available for anyone interested in them (though sending them through the mail would be incredibly unethical due to the harm they would / could cause to unsuspecting people whilst being moved to their destination.)

Again, I just felt I had to speak up on the issue - I fully respect your point of view, although I disagree with it completely. I am, however, curious as to the reasons behind it?

- grahamgreene
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: TravellingWithoutMoving on February 17, 2012, 01:32 pm
- cyanide -i don't , it was an open ended question ....and virtually nobody had any opinions....so it must mean to 99% of SR's think  that cyanide is ok....
{sorry for the confusion...cyanide doesnt belong here...i never claim to want to do harm to any vendor nor buyer...thats not supposed to be the reason we are here
  for...}

- guns, lets just say it has its place...ultimately is not my decision to allow their sale, hence one can express an opinion but one of  my last posts beg the question "..what does DPR think..", why would i say this....because sometimes you have to take into account everyones opinions and i see merit in both sides so to speak...or
  when you have to cater for everyone there has to be a compromise since its a double-edged sword...


Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: anarcho47 on February 17, 2012, 05:39 pm
The fact of the matter is that this issue is entirely up to DPR.  We are all "renting" his private property at the moment, and he could decide to ban listing anything at any time.

Be thankful he usually asks for the community's input before he makes decisions, and that we have been able to influence the course of a lot of the features and changes that have been made to this wonderful place.

Do I think cyanide SHOULD be listed?  Personally, no.  If people want to get together in the forums and discuss sourcing it, that's up to them and I'm sure that's not a big deal because it's just people talking. 

SR's policy since day one has been that no products whose sole intention is to cause harm against a human being's inalienable rights, or is the result of/is used for theft purposes, is to be listed.  And just some common sense things.  No fake currency (Secret Service can stay where they are), no weapons of mass destruction, no stolen credit cards or financial information, no child pornography, etc.  I think a product whose sole intent is to cause harm to another individual or to commit suicide with, like cyanide, has no place being listed on SR (have you ever SEEN what someone looks like after cyanide poisoning!).  Any drug you COULD O.D. on intentionally does not mean you WILL.  the recreational intent is by far the most common.  A gun can be used for self-defense or to protect your property, and on a worldwide scale is used far more for this purpose than to commit murder.  You can't take recreational cyanide, and you can't give someone cyanide for recreation purposes.  It's a kill-pill.  Death (horrible death, if you know what it does) in your palm.

If you read through the seller's guide there is already a pretty comprehensive list of items that aren't supposed to be on here.  I encourage any community member who sees a seller deliberately breaching DPR's right to his property and to dictate what goes on this market, to inform him directly.  He is not a fool, and the choices he makes are what he sees as the strongest for both the survival of SR, and his own survival.  This is no game we are playing here.  This is a long-standing war that has been raging on and off since the first coffee bans in 1500's Europe.

We have breached a centuries-old defense line with what we are doing here.  Every peaceful, mutually-beneficial transaction we make that takes all chance of violence out of the equation literally spits right in the face of the violent state and its legions of worshipful blood-money-paid minions who perpetrate its outright lies and legalism.  We have taken most of the guns out of the equation, which is amazing.  Unparalleled.  There is no reason to risk this and attract hordes more state-resources aimed at the worst kind of violence, just because of a few idiot buyers and sellers. 

Anarcho47
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: TravellingWithoutMoving on March 08, 2012, 06:24 pm
...thanks for prev post...read it when was originally posted, can the banned list / items not be mirrored on the forum when its easy to get to ..what do you think?!


cut & paste from the sellers guide over on SR:-
"Restricted items
Do not list anything who's purpose is to harm or defraud, such as stolen items or info, stolen credit cards, counterfeit currency, personal info, assassinations, and weapons of any kind.
Do not list anything related to pedophilia.

Practically speaking, there are many powerful adversaries of Silk Road and if we are to survive, we must not take them all on at once. Additionally, if you try to please everyone, you will wind up pleasing no one. So certain things are restricted just so we don't scare too many off.

On a moral level, we take the high road, pun intended ;). Those who seek to control the behavior of their neighbors through force are immoral. Silk Road exists to circumvent that force and provide a safe-haven where civilized people can come together in peace for mutual benefit. To allow listings of items designed to defraud or harm innocent people would be to stoop to the level of the very people we are standing up to.

If you are unsure about a listing, just drop us a line and we'll let you know. "

 ;)
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: ianfleming on March 08, 2012, 06:45 pm
people, you should not be allowed to sell people.
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: BenJesuit on March 08, 2012, 07:17 pm
Both Grahamgreen and Anarcho47 summed it up perfectly.

Let's stay away from "banning" things as a community. Leave that up to DPR.

We don't EVER want to get into a situation when a majority's sensibility can disenfranchise a minority.

If you don't like, don't buy it. And if enough people don't like it, it simply won't be sold.

Otherwise, if we try to rule by committee, you may find your drug of choice on the ban block.
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: anarcho47 on March 08, 2012, 08:09 pm
people, you should not be allowed to sell people.

A human possesses his own body, so he could in effect sell himself.  Indentured servitude was extremely common back in the 1600's and 1700's - people would "sell themselves" over to a landowner in the New World, who would pay for their passage and provide them living accommodations in exchange for 3-5 years of full time labor.  Sure we could argue semantics and say that a prostitute is selling services just as an indentured servant is selling labor (service).  Can you really ever pass ownership of yourself over to someone, though? 

besides, what about my Russian mail-order bride!?  Have you seen those pics on the interblags?  They are as legit as legit gets.
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: jpisbetterthanme on March 08, 2012, 08:18 pm
I'm sure Ianfleming was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek but his post combined with BenJesuit's immediately afterward point to an important contrast I think needs to be addressed:
-Don't sell people
-If you don't like it, don't buy it

I don't think it's at all justifiable to have human trafficking involved in this website and I doubt that anybody here would argue with me. So that implies that the Line is drawn somewhere, right?

Well even if we say that Line is "don't hurt anybody" it begins to get fuzzy right away: obviously weapons hurt people (save the "arm the world like we were Swedish so there's no more crime" argument, please). Obviously drugs hurt people (save the "every drug is great and we should put acid in the water supply" argument, please). Obviously that GORGEOUS guitar up for sale on the road now hurts people (save the "Ozzy didn't make that kid commit suicide" argument, please). Obviously . . . . . . 

With that point made, I'll stop joke-exampling :)

The logical train of questions that follows the above logic :
1- If this isn't a democratic issue, can we still democratically decide how to decide it, if not democratically?
2- In that case, wouldn't the only solution be to essentially elect someone to decide for us?
3- To prevent this from becoming a weird dictatorship or something wouldn't it be better if we elected a GROUP of someones to decide for us?
4- How do they decide, if not democratically?
5- Is that not the impetus for the problems that drove us SR Weirdos underground to begin with?
6- Rallying against that happening, is the only other choice sheer anarchy?
7- If we embrace Anything Goes anarchy - I mean *really* anything goes, not just "it's absurd we can't take certain chemicals" - how long would it be before human traffickers and stuff take over the Road and it becomes its own worst nightmare?

I'm sorry but I simply cannot agree with the thinking that seems to imply that there are no real criminals out there doing real terrible things to real human beings. Or that we should do anything to foster that.

Just your Local Friendly Neighborhood Shredmod trying to keep this discussion going. While it is entirely up to DPR like anarch said, we all know DPR listens to us all and needs to be fed with good ideas or ... Well, you've seen Gremlins ;)
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: anarcho47 on March 08, 2012, 09:02 pm
I'm sure Ianfleming was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek but his post combined with BenJesuit's immediately afterward point to an important contrast I think needs to be addressed:
-Don't sell people
-If you don't like it, don't buy it

I don't think it's at all justifiable to have human trafficking involved in this website and I doubt that anybody here would argue with me. So that implies that the Line is drawn somewhere, right?

Well even if we say that Line is "don't hurt anybody" it begins to get fuzzy right away: obviously weapons hurt people (save the "arm the world like we were Swedish so there's no more crime" argument, please). Obviously drugs hurt people (save the "every drug is great and we should put acid in the water supply" argument, please). Obviously that GORGEOUS guitar up for sale on the road now hurts people (save the "Ozzy didn't make that kid commit suicide" argument, please). Obviously . . . . . . 

With that point made, I'll stop joke-exampling :)

The logical train of questions that follows the above logic :
1- If this isn't a democratic issue, can we still democratically decide how to decide it, if not democratically?
2- In that case, wouldn't the only solution be to essentially elect someone to decide for us?
3- To prevent this from becoming a weird dictatorship or something wouldn't it be better if we elected a GROUP of someones to decide for us?
4- How do they decide, if not democratically?
5- Is that not the impetus for the problems that drove us SR Weirdos underground to begin with?
6- Rallying against that happening, is the only other choice sheer anarchy?
7- If we embrace Anything Goes anarchy - I mean *really* anything goes, not just "it's absurd we can't take certain chemicals" - how long would it be before human traffickers and stuff take over the Road and it becomes its own worst nightmare?

I'm sorry but I simply cannot agree with the thinking that seems to imply that there are no real criminals out there doing real terrible things to real human beings. Or that we should do anything to foster that.

Just your Local Friendly Neighborhood Shredmod trying to keep this discussion going. While it is entirely up to DPR like anarch said, we all know DPR listens to us all and needs to be fed with good ideas or ... Well, you've seen Gremlins ;)

Anarchy is you going down to the store and getting a pack of cigarettes.  Anarchy is you meeting up with your friends for dinner and having some good conversation.  Anarchy is just another word for non-coerced voluntary action. 

A private gated community where you have sign a butt-load of contacts just to live there (can't paint your house a certain color, no trampolines on the lawn, have to pay a lawn service to make sure your yard looks good, have to pay for private security firm to patrol, etc) are all completely legitimate under anarcho-capitalism.  This is a 100% voluntary-association based platform, which is what makes it so cool.  DPR is the property owner, and as the property owner he gets a say.  The market's natural mechanisms will take care of him.

If this becomes a nest of deviant CP-er's or human traffickers, the good people will leave.  I would leave.  And because of this mass-migration, DPR would lose a shit-ton of money.

Your arguments about weapons and drugs are perfunctory.  No inanimate object can be wrong in and of itself, no inanimate object can do harm in and of itself.  It requires outside force/choice in order to do that.  ignore the numbers all you like, but I have never heard of a pistol gaining sentience and going on a murder spree.  Human beings harm each other.  Self-OD-ing to suicide is a conscious choice a human has to make, followed by action.

Human trafficking, however, is wrong, because it requires one human being to use violence to deny another human their right to their own body.  That is not the same "wrong" as you label a gun with, because one is a violent action (or actions) and another is a group of tangible materials arranged in a way that allows a user to perform a specific function.  If I use my computer to hack into a bank and empty out someone's bank accounts is my computer evil?

In the 20th century alone, there were dozens of genocides where at least 20,000 innocent people were murdered in cold blood.  In ALL of those instances, without exception, the population was disarmed.

I argue everything from the N.A.P., which is a hardline set of principles grounded in universal morality.  Thus, DPR has full control and ownership of this site and can dictate what happens to it, who uses it, etc.  We, as the "market" (voluntarily interacting humans, including interactions with him) can dictate what he does by voice of opinion or by action.  It is not democratic because this is his property.  Democracy is just mob-rule, where whatever the majority happens to think is "right" (or that small group that "represent", and are chosen by, the majority) is right by rule of law, meaning by force of government guns.  This is why it was a punishable, criminal offense for a black man to marry a white woman less than 100 years ago.  This is why people are locked in cages for making choices with their own bodies.  This is why an entire group of people, like Jews or specific tribes in Africa, can be deemed "not people" and murdered.  Mob morality is fucking scary, when it comes down to it - it's produced the worst splotches on all of human history.  We don't want to adopt it here.
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: TravellingWithoutMoving on March 08, 2012, 09:11 pm
- good idea shredder
- the do's & don'ts ought to be easy to find on forum and not buried in a sellers guide imoa
- the lack of readers seemingly not wanting to support individual posts, doesn't correlate with the sudden out burst to ban X & Y...
- perhaps forum users are not sure of a standpoint?!
- when ideals or principals are left to regulate themselves no wonder it doesn't work itself out and we are left arguing with each other so to speak?!
  these seem to be appropriate "organised kaos"
                                                 "organised crime"
                                                 "anarchy yet with purpose"


thanks
 ;)

anarcho: posted mine secs after you posted your points..
- i understand the direct harm action thing sure
- don't condone genocide etc
- i/we don't expect to sell/buyer what DPR doesn't want..
- perhaps i assume DPR is dealing with bigger issues and doesn't involve himself in squabbles thats why maybe it seems to be left to
  regulate itself.
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: psychedelicbees1 on March 08, 2012, 09:24 pm
I think chemicals of any sorts should be able to be sold here in the interest of those with the love of chemistry.  Cyanide is used in a lot of organic chemistry reactions, and I'm sure there are some home chemist here who might have reason to buy certain chemicals through illicit alleys.  And if someone buys it for other reasons, I'm sure they'll find a way anyway but I don't think a lot of them would think to come here first...
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: BenJesuit on March 08, 2012, 09:25 pm
SR cannot readily facilitate the logistics of trafficking in humans. So that argument is moot.

What's left?

Child pornography. Those crafty degenerates might list their horrible filth in such a way that you wouldn't even know it was child porn. But in their little private club(s) on TOR will say, "look for the listing by **** titled Rudolf the red nose rein deer HD. It's going for about 10 BTC. Be sure to use the code word KIDZRUS in the order box otherwise your order will be cancelled." And none of us would be the wiser.  There's lots of ways these monsters can conceal their trade on SR.

Though, it doesn't hurt to have a rule against selling CP on SR even though they can easily get around it.

What else is left then?

Ah right, stuff sold in the Armory. Same thing as the child porngraphers, they can conceal their listings and require code words in the order box to validate.

So putting up all sorts of prohibitions is just to soothe our collective conscious. But without a way to investigate and enforce what is prohibited from being sold, the prohibitions amount to nothing more than a polite request.

I mean, sure, we can draw a line, but it has to be VERY specific and not based on personal sensibilities. You know, there are some people who wish Meth, GHB and heroin weren't sold on SR but are perfectly fine with most strains of Sativa(weed) and shrooms as these things are all natural. This why I'm saying, we need to be careful with giving place to the idea of the prohibition of things.

I not saying a line can't be drawn. I'm just saying, be very careful with the stick you're using to draw the line. Be mindful of hypocritical positions.

Lastly, we probably don't need to worry so much. For the "bad" things that can be sold, there is hardly a market for it on SR due to the difficult risks in moving such items and the fear of a controlled delivery. Those things work best when conducted face to face and seeing before buying. While everything on SR is sold on a trust basis (with escrow helping to maintain trust), it will be hard to trust someone selling Anthrax or Sarin Gas if the seller isn't known or referred by a trusted someone in that particular underground community. 
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: BenJesuit on March 08, 2012, 09:46 pm

I argue everything from the N.A.P., which is a hardline set of principles grounded in universal morality.  Thus, DPR has full control and ownership of this site and can dictate what happens to it, who uses it, etc.  We, as the "market" (voluntarily interacting humans, including interactions with him) can dictate what he does by voice of opinion or by action.  It is not democratic because this is his property.  Democracy is just mob-rule, where whatever the majority happens to think is "right" (or that small group that "represent", and are chosen by, the majority) is right by rule of law, meaning by force of government guns.  This is why it was a punishable, criminal offense for a black man to marry a white woman less than 100 years ago.  This is why people are locked in cages for making choices with their own bodies.  This is why an entire group of people, like Jews or specific tribes in Africa, can be deemed "not people" and murdered.  Mob morality is fucking scary, when it comes down to it - it's produced the worst splotches on all of human history.  We don't want to adopt it here.

Goddamit this is good shit!

Especially the last sentence.

I think many either forget or just don't realize what the point of SR is. To buy and sell drugs? Yes that too. But they are not thinking of the full situation. Silk Road has to exist because the "democracy" at work in the world prevents us from openly purchasing our drugs of choice or drugs we always wanted to try. And all because of the sensibilities of a few convinced a majority that these drugs are bad. (OK some are. Especially if abused. I'm not going to kid myself).

But that's the point. Democracy sort of sucks. It invariably disenfranchises a minority.

But all that aside for a sec, the main reason why some want to impose a whole host of limits on SR is because they are afraid of losing SR and think some things being sold will hasten SR's demise.

Now that I get. And let's face it - we all share that fear to one degree or another.

But I place my faith in Dread Pirate Roberts. He has the highest LEO price on his head more so than any of us - vendors included. He will obviously do all he can to ensure SR's survival as well as his own survival. So if DPR makes yet another market to traffic in unmentionables, he's doing so not only based on his agorist principles, but also after assessing the risks to himself and SR.

BTW; stock up on drugs. 'Cause you never know. *big grin*
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: jpisbetterthanme on March 08, 2012, 10:00 pm
All I was really saying (beyond playing devils advocate and trying to light a fire to keep this thread going, partly because I feel like I should as a mod but also because I'm curious) was that no matter what if you're saying "yeah but XYZ-Thing SHOULD NOT be available on SR" you are drawing a line. There's no way around it.

Note that I don't think that's a bad thing at all. In fact, if you want to know my opinion,* I think SR should be exclusively for psychoactives and all the other stuff should be segmented off into their own realms that have nothing to do with SR, like the Armory (except that the Armory still says Silk Road on a lot of its pages:)). Either total compartmentalization or none at all. This isn't because of my conscience - it's because my wrists chafe when Men With Sticks put Metal Bracelets on them when they Abduct Me Against My Will And Throw Me in the Rape Cage.

Anarcho - While valid and insightful, your points on anarchy are tangential, I think.  Of course contracts would still be legal .... Too bad ("good thing"?) anarchy is never gonna happen. If it makes you feel better, replace "anarchy" in my post with "mayhem" :)

BenJesuit - Why couldn't SR facilitate the logistics of human trafficking? It's very much like drug trafficking - people are just products in that industry. That's the whole problem!

*Note : Opinions of your Local Friendly Neighborhood Shredmod are not necessarily those of SR or anybody else inn the world :D
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: BenJesuit on March 08, 2012, 10:17 pm
Human trafficing requires face to face meetings within a trusted sub community. Anonymity doesn't work in that sphere of crime. Rep and vetted referrals are a must.

Imagine an SR listing. "Pretty, tanned, dark haired, A cup boobed, Thai ladyboy will do everything up to and including bareback. And she/he cooks. Mostly Ramen though. But learns fast if S&M applied liberally. Has all shots and no STDs" Asking 10,000 BTC. Willing to stay in escrow until delivered and sampled for fit. Care and feeding is the responsibility of the buyer once deal is finalized. 25% discount if finalized early.

Yeah it COULD be done. But in all reality.... :-/  nah.
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: anarcho47 on March 08, 2012, 10:29 pm
All I was really saying (beyond playing devils advocate and trying to light a fire to keep this thread going, partly because I feel like I should as a mod but also because I'm curious) was that no matter what if you're saying "yeah but XYZ-Thing SHOULD NOT be available on SR" you are drawing a line. There's no way around it.

Note that I don't think that's a bad thing at all. In fact, if you want to know my opinion,* I think SR should be exclusively for psychoactives and all the other stuff should be segmented off into their own realms that have nothing to do with SR, like the Armory (except that the Armory still says Silk Road on a lot of its pages:)). Either total compartmentalization or none at all. This isn't because of my conscience - it's because my wrists chafe when Men With Sticks put Metal Bracelets on them when they Abduct Me Against My Will And Throw Me in the Rape Cage.

Anarcho - While valid and insightful, your points on anarchy are tangential, I think.  Of course contracts would still be legal .... Too bad ("good thing"?) anarchy is never gonna happen. If it makes you feel better, replace "anarchy" in my post with "mayhem" :)

BenJesuit - Why couldn't SR facilitate the logistics of human trafficking? It's very much like drug trafficking - people are just products in that industry. That's the whole problem!

*Note : Opinions of your Local Friendly Neighborhood Shredmod are not necessarily those of SR or anybody else inn the world :D

As an anarcho-capitalist who would concede to bare-bones minarchism with some huge caveats against the tiny political class, I always attempt to point out that "anarchy" and "mayhem" are mutually exclusive most of the time.  More so than with any other political system we've had in place up to this point (see:  "Wild" West's ACTUAL history)

Also this site is 100% anarcho-capitalist, which is why it's near and dear to my heart.  As such, I'm going to be tangential from time to time because there are elements of SR that are understood by many, and the core philosophy/morality of its operation are something everyone should at least recognize, even if it's not something we all agree with.
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: redforeva on March 08, 2012, 10:53 pm
Make a Silk Road Gambling website for lotteries I am tired of seeing them, on a side note "Child" is relative to the country of ones home. While filming/photographing adolescents against their own will is wrong on all levels of human thinking. The ability for a "child" to go to an establishment and run nude IE nude resort or ranch, and be photographed and the photographer can claim it is "artistic". Why does this loop hole exist? For the politicians? for the bacon? Why should the sale of information be outlawed out right also? Pertaining to the distribution of SNN# , DOB, MMN and the other information usually associated with fraudulent purposes. But this information could be used for the further hide in the web when buying/selling virtual goods. It is of my understanding that all money spent when a credit card had been stole will be returned to the owner if a police report is filed and they call their bank.. this does NOT apply with DEBIT cards which hold balance.. the funds cannot be recovered from these to my knowledge.
Therefore an attack on someones credit card is an direct attack to the businesses affected by the fraudsters. Since this is true if some company such as "Comcast" attempted to and found a way to refuse TOR connections a way to fight back could be to "steal" cable packages via stolen details and sinking the company into a hole of debt. What are morals to other people if they do not follow them. The fact is it is arbitrary to think that if we change the rules to play a different tune that the "law" will still be broken. When Al Gore claimed to have invented the intranet he must not have seen how the internet would be used down the "road" *silkroad reference* Again.. All i care about is lotteries and vendors being shady as fuck.
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: anarcho47 on March 08, 2012, 11:58 pm
Make a Silk Road Gambling website for lotteries I am tired of seeing them, on a side note "Child" is relative to the country of ones home. While filming/photographing adolescents against their own will is wrong on all levels of human thinking. The ability for a "child" to go to an establishment and run nude IE nude resort or ranch, and be photographed and the photographer can claim it is "artistic". Why does this loop hole exist? For the politicians? for the bacon? Why should the sale of information be outlawed out right also? Pertaining to the distribution of SNN# , DOB, MMN and the other information usually associated with fraudulent purposes. But this information could be used for the further hide in the web when buying/selling virtual goods. It is of my understanding that all money spent when a credit card had been stole will be returned to the owner if a police report is filed and they call their bank.. this does NOT apply with DEBIT cards which hold balance.. the funds cannot be recovered from these to my knowledge.
Therefore an attack on someones credit card is an direct attack to the businesses affected by the fraudsters. Since this is true if some company such as "Comcast" attempted to and found a way to refuse TOR connections a way to fight back could be to "steal" cable packages via stolen details and sinking the company into a hole of debt. What are morals to other people if they do not follow them. The fact is it is arbitrary to think that if we change the rules to play a different tune that the "law" will still be broken. When Al Gore claimed to have invented the intranet he must not have seen how the internet would be used down the "road" *silkroad reference* Again.. All i care about is lotteries and vendors being shady as fuck.

Hey, man lay off of my lottos!

I set up a separate vendor account for them so it doesn't mingle with my actual sales - what more do you want? ;)
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: jpisbetterthanme on March 12, 2012, 02:00 am
@BenJesuit - Who said anything about "reality" ? : ) ... I just think that when it comes to what is possible with technology, saying something is impossible just sets up a foot-in-the-mouth situation. I wouldn't have believed SR to be possible even just a few years ago ........  C'mon, like we could ever put a man on the *moon* ? :)

@Anarcho - You're still missing the point. Ignore my bad English and choose whatever word you want. Point is that if there were absolutely no oversight this would get out of hand very, very quickly. It's not a direct attack against anarcho-capitalism or anything else for that matter - I actually believe the point I am trying to make is sort of tautological.

Incidentally I don't believe this site to be 100% anarcho-capitalist. There are rules. Just because it's underground doesn't mean it's anarchist. I feel like I'm probably misunderstanding you, though, because you seem like you are intelligent and "of course it's not anarcho-capitalist because there are rules" seems like way too basic a thing for you to overlook, especially continuously and with such fervor. So . . .  What do you mean, exactly?
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: anarcho47 on March 12, 2012, 03:38 am
@BenJesuit - Who said anything about "reality" ? : ) ... I just think that when it comes to what is possible with technology, saying something is impossible just sets up a foot-in-the-mouth situation. I wouldn't have believed SR to be possible even just a few years ago ........  C'mon, like we could ever put a man on the *moon* ? :)

@Anarcho - You're still missing the point. Ignore my bad English and choose whatever word you want. Point is that if there were absolutely no oversight this would get out of hand very, very quickly. It's not a direct attack against anarcho-capitalism or anything else for that matter - I actually believe the point I am trying to make is sort of tautological.

Incidentally I don't believe this site to be 100% anarcho-capitalist. There are rules. Just because it's underground doesn't mean it's anarchist. I feel like I'm probably misunderstanding you, though, because you seem like you are intelligent and "of course it's not anarcho-capitalist because there are rules" seems like way too basic a thing for you to overlook, especially continuously and with such fervor. So . . .  What do you mean, exactly?

It is pretty tough to explain in brief, but let's just say there is "private law" and "public law".  Private law is compatible with anarcho-capitalism because it is rooted in negative rights and people have the ability to opt out or are "forced" to remain compliant through non-coercive means.  (An example would be a community where all of the men were expected to take one night a month and patrol against thieves and violent criminals.  If someone refused to do so, the rest of the community might ostracize them and refuse to trade with them, which would "force" that person to either comply or leave and let someone else live there who would contribute).

There are tons of instances, and it gets pretty advanced.  Probably the foremost scholar on private law is Hans Hermann Hoppe, and I would recommend even reading a couple of his essays  to get the idea (he has some specifically comparing public to private in practical terms so the lines are pretty clear).

This is private property we are on.  Any decision DPR decides to make, any limitation or allowance, is all a private matter between us tenants and the ownership.  If we don't like it, we can leave or suffer through it.  If we break these private laws we are forced to leave (scammers have accounts banned, etc.).  Over time if competing sites along these lines come into existence, it will keep a check on the property owners to not become tyrannical and to have the friendliest policy towards buyers and sellers alike, less they lose valuable community members to competing venues.  These are all functions of private law and they play out every day on the internet and in many instances still exist in the brick and mortar world.
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: lex on March 13, 2012, 04:28 am
I'm fucking tired of this stupid childish arguing about what should and what shouldn't be sold here. It is all subjective, a matter of opinion, your own morals that you're trying to shove down others throats. What really annoyed me was all these retards all over the forum "NO GUNS ON SR" that caused The Armory to get created, because selling heroin and meth is fucking harmless. Shut the fuck up....
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: SR_Seller_Accounts on March 13, 2012, 09:02 am
I'm fucking tired of this stupid childish arguing about what should and what shouldn't be sold here. It is all subjective, a matter of opinion, your own morals that you're trying to shove down others throats. What really annoyed me was all these retards all over the forum "NO GUNS ON SR" that caused The Armory to get created, because selling heroin and meth is fucking harmless. Shut the fuck up....

I like the cut of your jib.

Here's my stance. In order to be "free" we must let others be free to do as they please so long as they are not infringing on anyone else in the process. To me, it's about freedom... nothing else.

The potential to "do bad" and "do harm" on another are pitiful excuses to steal the rights we were born with.

No one has the right to tell anyone what they can or cant do so long as there is no injury and/or loss to third parties in the process.
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: TravellingWithoutMoving on March 13, 2012, 05:35 pm
I'm fucking tired of this stupid childish arguing about what should and what shouldn't be sold here. It is all subjective, a matter of opinion, your own morals that you're trying to shove down others throats. What really annoyed me was all these retards all over the forum "NO GUNS ON SR" that caused The Armory to get created, because selling heroin and meth is fucking harmless. Shut the fuck up....

- it wasn't my intention for it to be an arguement in fact I don't see this particular one being so, some decent points of view.

- i ask questions and hope to start civilised debate/discussion on whatever subject, most cases i'm just seeking clarification on I'm not sure of
  or my observations of other postings that seem to be unanswered or queries/points going round in circles.

- I'm no expert on argorism nor anarchism...

 :o


Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: BenJesuit on March 13, 2012, 08:22 pm
I'm fucking tired of this stupid childish arguing about what should and what shouldn't be sold here. It is all subjective, a matter of opinion, your own morals that you're trying to shove down others throats. What really annoyed me was all these retards all over the forum "NO GUNS ON SR" that caused The Armory to get created, because selling heroin and meth is fucking harmless. Shut the fuck up....

That was part of it. But what I found to be the crux of that debate is that people were simply afraid of losing SR. They had the fear that more "heat" would be brought down on SR if guns were sold. It was an unsubstantiated argument based on fear alone since there is no precedent to draw on. And of course, there were also those who tried to inject their sensibility against guns into the discussion.

At the end of the day, what was exposed by all that discussion about guns on SR is an acute lack of faith many have in Dread Pirate Roberts to protect SR from LEO attack. As if LEO hasn't been trying all along and DPR was just lucky Silk Road is still up.
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: bananatinpots on March 13, 2012, 08:39 pm
I was quite scared at first that this place wouldn't last long, I'm still a n00b and I don't know very much about technical issues but I think I've been convinced that DPR knows what he's doing and that we can survive almost any attack by LE.

I am not really for banning anything from SR and I don't think we have the right to make that decision, but I did think that the comments on another post concerning this re the legality of SR do have some relevance.  If SR sticks to drugs then we are all a bit safer, if things like hitmen and child porn are openly sold here then it increases the potential resources that LE could muster against SR, stronger laws and more resources could be applied and our relative safety will be diminished...

Limiting what can be sold here will limit potential LE actions against SR.

That said I doubt it would do much good anyway, since we will get stained with what ever is on Tor by the press anyway, even if we stick rigidly to drugs we will still be accused of facilitating human trafficking, cp and hitmen.

Rationality has never been a strong point of anti-drug campaigners.
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: ilduderino on March 13, 2012, 09:01 pm
I'd say whatever the people running the site prefer, since it's their baby. As for ethics, even hiring a hit man could be justified under some circumstances. I personally feel that anything extremely dangerous or objectionable like poison chems or "terror tools" or illegal exploitation of human beings esp. children would draw unwanted attention from the pigs, so for that reason restricting such things is probably wise. It looks like, for whatever reason, I don't see anything like that offered.
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: TravellingWithoutMoving on March 13, 2012, 09:37 pm
....
At the end of the day, what was exposed by all that discussion about guns on SR is an acute lack of faith many have in Dread Pirate Roberts to protect SR from LEO attack. As if LEO hasn't been trying all along and DPR was just lucky Silk Road is still up.

....
At the end of the day, what was exposed by all that discussion about guns on SR is an acute lack of faith many have in Dread Pirate Roberts to protect SR from LEO attack. As if LEO hasn't been trying all along and DPR was just lucky Silk Road is still up.
- first sign of trouble, first tremours panic sets in.

- suppose people want a access to the marketplace without the risk.
  "i want access to illegals but under my terms.."?!

- if SR is shutdown what is the contigency plan or where does everyone go from being an online community
  to some boring legal highs forum..
Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: alwaystrying on March 14, 2012, 04:04 am
hold on...

who are you to stop me selling my soul if i want to? cencorship is a dangerous road to go down. My understanding of SR's stance on this subject is the harm principle. If it doesnt directly harm other people, its fine by them.

that rules out child porn, CC details and arguably weapons (though thats controversial)

if i want to sell my soul, i can sell it. If i want to sell my spleen and someone will buy in anonymously, you have no right to stop me.

thats what brought us all to here, dont try and enforce your views on us all and ruin it.

Title: Re: Unethical business & items that should be banned -List?!
Post by: TravellingWithoutMoving on March 19, 2012, 10:06 pm
- i    g e t      i t    n o w.

- case closed.

 :D