Silk Road forums
Discussion => Off topic => Topic started by: vlad1m1r on May 18, 2012, 03:24 pm
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Dear all,
I was somewhat disturbed to encounter a seller in another online marketplace who flatly refuses to do business with Asian people* in rather rude terms!
Irrespective of exactly HOW he would know the colour of someone's skin I was shocked to see this kind of attitude - have any of you encountered this? I rather thought we'd moved beyond this era!
V.
*Any Americans reading - in British English an Asian persion is someone of Middle Eastern descent e.g Indian or Pakistani.
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Just had a message from the seller in question - apparently he believes that people from "that area of the world" can't be trusted... - I have asked him about the fact his policy presumably also applies to British people of Middle Eastern descent but no details have been forthcoming, such a shame to see people being treated this way.
V.
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Who the fuck is this mug?
EDIT - 2222nd post....spooooky!
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Who the fuck is this mug?
He's not on SR thank goodness. I've offered not to out him if he changes his seller page. No reply as of yet... It just goes to show we've got a long way to come before we tackle prejudice fully in the UK.
V.
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Who the fuck is this mug?
He's not on SR thank goodness. I've offered not to out him if he changes his seller page. No reply as of yet... It just goes to show we've got a long way to come before we tackle prejudice fully in the UK.
V.
Meh, shit like that should get people band. "No you can't have my drugs or services because you aren't the same colour as me" fucking idiot.
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Well said Lim,
Speaking as an SR vendor, I can safely say to everyone the only colour I care is about is the colour of your money! :-D
V.
Who the fuck is this mug?
He's not on SR thank goodness. I've offered not to out him if he changes his seller page. No reply as of yet... It just goes to show we've got a long way to come before we tackle prejudice fully in the UK.
V.
Meh, shit like that should get people band. "No you can't have my drugs or services because you aren't the same colour as me" fucking idiot.
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lol WTF...
How the fuck would this guy even know if they're of Asian descent?
Obviously the name but if somebody really wanted to order they could just put Steve Carroll or some shit...
Either way the guys a prick.
Dank
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I think in this case the buyer's name as you say was clearly not English but then we're a very multicultural race ourselves, no reason to pick on people of Asian descent!
V.
lol WTF...
How the fuck would this guy even know if they're of Asian descent?
Obviously the name but if somebody really wanted to order they could just put Steve Carroll or some shit...
Either way the guys a prick.
Dank
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lol WTF...
How the fuck would this guy even know if they're of Asian descent?
Obviously the name but if somebody really wanted to order they could just put Steve Carroll or some shit...
Either way the guys a prick.
Dank
Exactly. If they want to sell their shit according to Nazi policy they need to fuck off to a BNP or National Front meeting. This place is about leveling the playing field for everyone, no room for this crap here.
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i dont agree with doing that but people in the uk never seem to realize that pakistanis are much more racist than english
if an english guy said to his daughter u carnt date a paki hed probably be arrested and and be classed as a racist but 99% of asians wouldnt allow there daughters any where near another race and if caught dating 1 would end up dead by there own family and even the asian lads wouldnt dare tell there family there fucking a white bird. how come nowt ever gets said about this coz when a white person says there kids shouldnt date asians the media circus goes mad
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i dont agree with doing that but people in the uk never seem to realize that pakistanis are much more racist than english
if an english guy said to his daughter u carnt date a paki hed probably be arrested and and be classed as a racist but 99% of asians wouldnt allow there daughters any where near another race and if caught dating 1 would end up dead by there own family and even the asian lads wouldnt dare tell there family there fucking a white bird. how come nowt ever gets said about this coz when a white person says there kids shouldnt date asians the media circus goes mad
Lol that really isn't the point. I work with Pakistani people and I know full well they can be extremely racist and there isn't any denying that. That being said that doesn't mean that you have to be as bad yourself and being racist in business is completely pointless because you are just standing in the way of profit. It's like the equivalent of a Heroin dealer saying "No, I wont by Afghan smack because I don't like Afghanistanis or Muslims" which is a bullshit attitude because you are just screwing yourself out of buying the best quality product. Absolute bullshit.
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Bullshit indeed but it shouldn't be a bannable offense. The free market isn't just about being able to buy whatever you want, it's also about being able to sell whatever you want to whoever you want. It's the vendors right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. It's the buyers right to come on here and slander them for it
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im really not like that i was just saying . i couldnt give shit about race and weather there forigners who come to uk like some people always bitching about illegal immigrants they think they get out the lorry and walk straight to pick up a giro and house keys which is bullshit ,they spend there time hiding from gov agencies not registering with em
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It's a free market. If someone wants to restrict their own market opportunities for apparently nonsensical dumbfuck reasons that's all on them.
Compete with them. Offer the same products with a big sign that says
"BROWN IS GOOD. BROWN WITH GREEN IS EVEN BETTER. SHOP HERE PLEASE!!!"
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We see shops in the UK making discriminative rules all the time, We have all been in a shop which has a sign saying "NO HATS OR HOODS" yet the old man standing in front in the Que still has his flat cap bonnet firmly on his head.
Vendors have the right to refuse service to whoever they want at the end of the day.
If you don't agree with their policy just don't go their anymore. No need to start a hate campaign against them, you should always be tolerant of ignorant peoples intolerance, otherwise you are just as bad as them ;)
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Racist people are ignorant, insecure and just generally shitty ....but honestly in this situation Im on the "no paki" guys side.He could just be a racist moron but we dont know that maybe all his dealings with pakis have turned out bad so he decided to not deal with them anymore. I was raised in a predominantly black neighbourhood and I dont mean afroamericans like in the states, the guys in my area are FOB somalians, ethiopians, jamaican(ALOT of somalians especially) and growing up I cant think of one thing that went well with an african when it came down to money. Ofcourse theres gonna be people among them that you can have a good deal with but im not gonna get burned 20 times so I can find that one diamond in the ruff. My fiancee's from Ghana and shes the sweetest, smartest , and the most beautiful girl ive ever known but im still keeping my bank account seperate :P
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i have heard of several counterfeit document vendors refusing to work with people who look middle eastern because they are afraid they might sell to terrorists and get CIAPWNT
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To the comment regarding media branding white people racist etc and the example of Asian daughters dating etc. it's all about culture I guess in my opinion Pakistani culture is completely different than white folks culture but I wouldn't see a white folk telling his daughter not to date Asians as racist :)
Also I think a lot has to be handed down to the media and the way they present things if you think about it recently in the media there's been a rise in 'Asian' sex gangs but surely they are the same as a normal sex gang? But because of the media branding it as an Asian sex gang it makes shit look even more fucked up. Like for example you would never see a headline "white sex gang been jailed" etc you get where I'm coming from?
With the original OP about banning pakis yeah it's fine if he doesn't want to deal with Pakistanis but come on man by using the term "paki" is just racist point blank period he should of at least put "no Pakistanis" and maybe explained why? It's like someone saying "no ni**ers" why not just use the proper term?
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I have to be frank in saying I don't agree with you UnLimetless but your post does raise an interesting question. Should we tolerate intolerance?
Perhaps it's one drawback to the kind of anonymity people are afforded on here in that they can feel free to express opinions which are prejudiced.
The point would be moot in any case - if this person ran a garage and put a sign up outside saying "Black and Asian people are not welcome here" for instance, he'd find himself in court.
Of course the fact that it's illegal doesn't necessarily make it immoral!
You might have heard about the Civil Rights movements spearheaded by Martin Luther King in the US during the 60's. At the time bus companies such as those in Birmingham, Alabama operated a policy whereby a black person had to surrender their seat to a white person - that is until an extremely brave woman named refused to give up her seat and sparked a boycott of the bus service by African Americans until eventually the bus companies had little choice but to cave in. The bus companies were by no means the only perpretrators and a number of businesses and government departments practised segregation.
It all sounds very cosy when described in those terms but what isn't made clear is the number of unsuccessful legal challenges made against this company policy and the number of (white) Judges who affirmed it was indeed Constitutional to adopt racist practices in this way. Indeed Martin Luther King himself was jailed for his part in organising the boycott (Further reading : Letter from Birmingham Jail*).
Majority white Christian groups at the time called his actions unseemly, untimely and intolerant. The general consensus was that implementing desegregation on unwilling white people was no more tolerant than segregation itself.
Luther King obviously was able to disprove that point of view in a few short sentences as you will see from the letter. One option caused needless suffering to an innocent minority while the other involved everyone being treated fairly.
I would say the same principle applies here - through allowing racial intolerance we are allowing a minority to be persecuted, by tackling it we can put it to a stop.
As such I've decided to give this seller a chance to read the posts here and decide whether it would be best for his business to change his policy.
V.
* http://abacus.bates.edu/admin/offices/dos/mlk/letter.html
We see shops in the UK making discriminative rules all the time, We have all been in a shop which has a sign saying "NO HATS OR HOODS" yet the old man standing in front in the Que still has his flat cap bonnet firmly on his head.
Vendors have the right to refuse service to whoever they want at the end of the day.
If you don't agree with their policy just don't go their anymore. No need to start a hate campaign against them, you should always be tolerant of ignorant peoples intolerance, otherwise you are just as bad as them ;)
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Thanks for your comments Icon.
For those who don't live in the UK I should explain we've had a growing issue in recent years where gangs of adult men target girls, plying them with drink, drugs and other gifts in exchange for sex.
In a few high profile cases the girls have been very young, white British and usually from an unstable home environment. The men in question have tended to be British-Pakistani or British-Bangladeshi.
In the most recent case I heard about in Southampton I'm convinced that the crimes were opportunistic - they were committed by Takeaway workers as underage girls would often congregate in or around such establishments.
Having said that I did see on the news that some community leaders have frankly admitted there seems to be more of a perception that abusing white girls seems to be more acceptable than harming girls in their own community. I am not convinced the case has been made for this as I think the real reason is that it is simply more likely that a white British girl is going to be alone and away from home more often than in other cultures where women are more likely to be accompanied and there is a taboo on drinking alcohol.
Practising racial tolerance doesn't mean we need to switch our brains off. To move to a more relevant example, many vendors on eBay were shocked by a guide I co-wrote for sellers where I said that simply writing NIGERIA=SCAM is not a safe assumption.
I did this because firstly, even if you do believe that every Nigerian is a scammer, there's nothing to stop them from using false names and addresses in European countries to buy goods! Secondly, the few Nigerians I have worked with have been forthright and honest people, there's no need to engage in racial profiling!
Frankly, I think this seller's attitude has more to do with blind prejudice than a considered evaluation of our respective cultural mores and although he says otherwise, this kind of discrimination is simply stupid and ignorant.
V.
To the comment regarding media branding white people racist etc and the example of Asian daughters dating etc. it's all about culture I guess in my opinion Pakistani culture is completely different than white folks culture but I wouldn't see a white folk telling his daughter not to date Asians as racist :)
Also I think a lot has to be handed down to the media and the way they present things if you think about it recently in the media there's been a rise in 'Asian' sex gangs but surely they are the same as a normal sex gang? But because of the media branding it as an Asian sex gang it makes shit look even more fucked up. Like for example you would never see a headline "white sex gang been jailed" etc you get where I'm coming from?
With the original OP about banning pakis yeah it's fine if he doesn't want to deal with Pakistanis but come on man by using the term "paki" is just racist point blank period he should of at least put "no Pakistanis" and maybe explained why? It's like someone saying "no ni**ers" why not just use the proper term?
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Prejudice is natural. Everyone hold certain preconceived ideas about something based on loose or false information (see christianity, islam, etc).
In terms of business, you can even see clearnet suppliers of legal goods refusing shipping to certain countries because of a high level of fraud. Is everyone in that country a fraudster? Of course not, but based on economics they refuse to do business with them.
On a smaller scale, this vendor clearly doesn't want to ship to certain locations. However he also holds a personal distaste for a certain demographic. You have to consider the resentment created in the 70s between british and pakistani people. There is a lot of history behind the 'paki-bashers'.
Personally, I am what some would consider racist. But I don't meet someone of a certain ethnicity and hate them. I have to see them do something, or act a certain way, or say something to me to hate them. For example the 15-20 year old male somalians you see in city centers, in oddly put together tracksuits, running around stealing and generally being cunts. Whilst all the time receiving benefits. I'd happily press a button to erase those people from the face of this earth. But is it because of their skin colour? No. It's because of their actions, it just so happens they all have the same skin tone. I equally hate the low life white cunts in britain that do exactly the same, scrounging off society and then complaining that things aren't how they want them. That the blacks and browns are to blame for them being complete and utter inbreds.
The issue with racism is, when every member of a certain nationality one individual sees, is up to something they dislike. Their brain creates an association between hating the 40 black individuals, to hating all blacks.
I'm too high to put across my point logically. But basically the human brain is wired towards prejudice. It forms associations to 'chunk' together information. Think of it as instead of a computer adding 1+1+1+1+1+1, it already knows 1+1+1 = 3 so instead (without you knowing) it processes it as 3+3. Due to us being sentient beings, we've given it labels and stigmas, and tried to ban it. But we will NEVER stop racism. Unless we change our neuroanatomy. All we can do is silence it.
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We see shops in the UK making discriminative rules all the time, We have all been in a shop which has a sign saying "NO HATS OR HOODS" yet the old man standing in front in the Que still has his flat cap bonnet firmly on his head.
Yoof discrimination :o
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Certainly prejudice and ignorance come to some people more naturally than others but I wonder where we should run with this logic?
It's also in our nature to lie, steal, rape and kill but we obviously try to stop people from harming others in this way where possible. Indeed, I am sure that no one would say it's realistic to wipe out racism overall any more than it is about crime.
Naturally this man's entitled to his private thoughts but I don't think he's entitled to publicly discriminate against people of a single race. As you say, you might well be unhappy with Somalis who mug people - as I am about Somali Pirates who take people hostage but it would be laughable to suggest that all Somalians are muggers (or indeed pirates!).
People like the BNP here in Britain play upon people's fear and ignorance to make them hateful of foreigners. It's always going to be easier to give in to prejudice than take the time to educate yourself about the realities of the situation e.g in this instance Britain's long history of immigration, the positive role foreigners have played in shaping our country and so on.
This goes back to what we touched on before. One viewpoint is backed up by a large body of evidence and advocates treating everyone fairly - the other is based on untrue notions of cultural superiority and involves discriminating against a certain group or groups of people - I know which one I prefer!
V.
Prejudice is natural. Everyone hold certain preconceived ideas about something based on loose or false information (see christianity, islam, etc).
In terms of business, you can even see clearnet suppliers of legal goods refusing shipping to certain countries because of a high level of fraud. Is everyone in that country a fraudster? Of course not, but based on economics they refuse to do business with them.
On a smaller scale, this vendor clearly doesn't want to ship to certain locations. However he also holds a personal distaste for a certain demographic. You have to consider the resentment created in the 70s between british and pakistani people. There is a lot of history behind the 'paki-bashers'.
Personally, I am what some would consider racist. But I don't meet someone of a certain ethnicity and hate them. I have to see them do something, or act a certain way, or say something to me to hate them. For example the 15-20 year old male somalians you see in city centers, in oddly put together tracksuits, running around stealing and generally being cunts. Whilst all the time receiving benefits. I'd happily press a button to erase those people from the face of this earth. But is it because of their skin colour? No. It's because of their actions, it just so happens they all have the same skin tone. I equally hate the low life cunts in britain that do exactly the same, scrounging off society and then complaining that things aren't how they want them. That the blacks and browns are to blame for them being complete and utter inbreds.
The issue with racism is, when every member of a certain nationality one individual sees, is up to something they dislike. Their brain creates an association between hating the 40 black individuals, to hating all blacks.
I'm too high to put across my point logically. But basically the human brain is wired towards prejudice. It forms associations to 'chunk' together information. Think of it as instead of a computer adding 1+1+1+1+1+1, it already knows 1+1+1 = 3 so instead (without you knowing) it processes it as 3+3. Due to us being sentient beings, we've given it labels and stigmas, and tried to ban it. But we will NEVER stop racism. Unless we change our neuroanatomy. All we can do is silence it.
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Hi vlad thanks for the response! speaking from an asian point of view although I think its nothing to do with seeing white british girls as easy prey its just easier as in like for example a 15 year old pakistani girl in britain is more likely to have older brothers and family members who tend to be very protective as in she probably would not be allowed to go out late evenings etc especially on her own and if there is any type of trouble usually the older members handle it therefore sexual predators tend to usually ignore there own type of girls as the repercussions are very severe while as a white female has a lot more freedom etc allowed to go out etc not many questions asked but no matter what colour the crimes these people were completely wrong! :) and I think you hit it on the nail when your response to racial tolerance :)
Thanks for your comments Icon.
For those who don't live in the UK I should explain we've had a growing issue in recent years where gangs of adult men target girls, plying them with drink, drugs and other gifts in exchange for sex.
In a few high profile cases the girls have been very young, white British and usually from an unstable home environment. The men in question have tended to be British-Pakistani or British-Bangladeshi.
In the most recent case I heard about in Southampton I'm convinced that the crimes were opportunistic - they were committed by Takeaway workers as underage girls would often congregate in or around such establishments.
Having said that I did see on the news that some community leaders have frankly admitted there seems to be more of a perception that abusing white girls seems to be more acceptable than harming girls in their own community. I am not convinced the case has been made for this as I think the real reason is that it is simply more likely that a white British girl is going to be alone and away from home more often than in other cultures where women are more likely to be accompanied and there is a taboo on drinking alcohol.
Practising racial tolerance doesn't mean we need to switch our brains off. To move to a more relevant example, many vendors on eBay were shocked by a guide I co-wrote for sellers where I said that simply writing NIGERIA=SCAM is not a safe assumption.
I did this because firstly, even if you do believe that every Nigerian is a scammer, there's nothing to stop them from using false names and addresses in European countries to buy goods! Secondly, the few Nigerians I have worked with have been forthright and honest people, there's no need to engage in racial profiling!
Frankly, I think this seller's attitude has more to do with blind prejudice than a considered evaluation of our respective cultural mores and although he says otherwise, this kind of discrimination is simply stupid and ignorant.
V.
To the comment regarding media branding white people racist etc and the example of Asian daughters dating etc. it's all about culture I guess in my opinion Pakistani culture is completely different than white folks culture but I wouldn't see a white folk telling his daughter not to date Asians as racist :)
Also I think a lot has to be handed down to the media and the way they present things if you think about it recently in the media there's been a rise in 'Asian' sex gangs but surely they are the same as a normal sex gang? But because of the media branding it as an Asian sex gang it makes shit look even more fucked up. Like for example you would never see a headline "white sex gang been jailed" etc you get where I'm coming from?
With the original OP about banning pakis yeah it's fine if he doesn't want to deal with Pakistanis but come on man by using the term "paki" is just racist point blank period he should of at least put "no Pakistanis" and maybe explained why? It's like someone saying "no ni**ers" why not just use the proper term?
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i have heard of several counterfeit document vendors refusing to work with people who look middle eastern because they are afraid they might sell to terrorists and get CIAPWNT
Thanks for this, most interesting!
For anyone who agrees Racial Profiling is a good method to filter potential terrorists, I suggest you read the great Bruce Schneier's thoughts on the subject:
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/02/racial_profilin.html
V.
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I had to post to this particular thread when i saw it.
Racism is exactly that. Whoever this dickhead you guys are talking about is, basically is a dinosaur, living in the past with all the other BNP, National Front fucks out there.
Get with the times. We are all human beings at the end of the day and if we cant get passed skin colour, as a species we will never evolve.
Plus, what the fuck does this guy think Tor is? He does realise Tor is totally anonymous right?
Either way, sounds like an uneducated retard. Hope something bad happens to him.
Sorry, rant over.
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its a shame that people can hide behind Tor, something built with good intentions; connecting people and giving the little man back some personal power; but like everything good, there carries a small token of darkness within.
what i think were blessed with on SR is a tolerant, educated & informed community (with a few exceptions & trolls) that wouldn't put up with anything like that and if anything like that was ever found here, it wouldnt be around for long.
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You seem like a very educated and astute person Vlad. I enjoy reading your posts.
To clarify my position: I do not judge a person by their skin tone or nationality alone. That is racism. I judge a person based on their actions, attire, manners, education and amiability. But I would like to get your views on a hypothetical situation:
If I were boating on the shores of Somalia and saw a shanty looking boat with 6 Somalians heading towards me, I'd be fucking worried. They could be fishermen, seeing my boat and coming to offer me fresh fish. Would I be racist for my preconceived idea I was about to be the victim of piracy? After all the preconceptions are based purely upon them being black. If I saw six white people coming towards me in a boat, my first thought would likely not involve them having wooden legs and hook hands.
I find the subject of racism fascinating. There are so many variables and components to it. Another thing that puts it into perspective are pet fish. Members of the tetra species that are common place in home aquariums will school together, even though their colours are different (for example Neon, Cardinal and Glowlight). They are not sentient beings, yet when the time calls for it they'll swim together to get out of dangers way. Of course, the Cardinals don't have a handful of members that decided to fly a plane into the Neon's buildings. But that's just humans for you.
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You seem like a very educated and astute person Vlad. I enjoy reading your posts.
Likewise, thank you!
To clarify my position: I do not judge a person by their skin tone or nationality alone. That is racism. I judge a person based on their actions, attire, manners, education and amiability. But I would like to get your views on a hypothetical situation:
If I were boating on the shores of Somalia and saw a shanty looking boat with 6 Somalians heading towards me, I'd be fucking worried. They could be fishermen, seeing my boat and coming to offer me fresh fish. Would I be racist for my preconceived idea I was about to be the victim of piracy? After all the preconceptions are based purely upon them being black. If I saw six white people coming towards me in a boat, my first thought would likely not involve them having wooden legs and hook hands.
Well at the risk of being facetious what you would probably see is several small, speedboats heading towards you if you were sailing the near the Somali Coast but I take your point!
Of course this kind of profiling might be natural but I wonder if it increases your safety?
There are advocates of racial profiling at Airport Security checkpoints on the basis that a 72 year old white Grandmother is less likely to be carrying a bomb in her bag then the Middle Eastern young man standing behind her.
As one of my idols Bruce Schneier goes on to explain extensively in his blog (see link above), the very idea of having a two track security procedure as it is in itself insecure.
The Chechen bombers on the Russian planes weren't searched as they were women. The infamous shoe bomber was not Middle Eastern in appearance (indeed Muslims are to be found in virtually every ethnicity), and so on.
When you decide to create that kind of "fast track" be it literal or in your mind, people with cruel intentions only need focus their efforts on getting into that one zone rather than being subject to more general scrutiny.
Does this mean that a boat of white people speeding towards you from the Somali coasts are as likely to be pirate as a boat load of black people? What I can tell you is that if I were a Somali Pirate and I knew you'd think this way, I'd simply get together a few white hostages and have them pilot the boats to allay your fears.
If you had a more comprehensive policy of viewing ANY stranger boating towards you with suspicion of course this wouldn't work!
I find the subject of racism fascinating. There are so many variables and components to it. Another thing that puts it into perspective are pet fish. Members of the tetra species that are common place in home aquariums will school together, even though their colours are different (for example Neon, Cardinal and Glowlight). They are not sentient beings, yet when the time calls for it they'll swim together to get out of dangers way. Of course, the Cardinals don't have a handful of members that decided to fly a plane into the Neon's buildings. But that's just humans for you.
If you find this subject interesting I suggest you read Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel." I think I've posted about this before. It's written by an American Anthropologist who spends a lot of time with the native people of New Guinea who until recently were at the same level of development as Iron Age people in the Americas and Europe.
The question he answers throughout his book (hence the title!) is why it is that there are some societies which are splitting the atom and some which have never developed beyond the hunter gatherer lifestyle?
Popular conceit amongst Europeans and European-Americans is that people of other races have inferior intelligence and were supplanted by us superior white folk.
What Diamond explained is that the answer is actually a lot more convoluted than this - firstly you need to live in a climate favourable to abandoning hunting as a means of gathering food as switching to farming.
Having excess food from farming means you can support people who have other uses besides gathering food - like inventors to build boats, and writers to create maps for explorers and pass knowledge on to the next generation, as well as import new ideas from other cultures.
Those societies which settled down often domesticated animals like pigs and cows. They soon found many of their germs mutated and "jumped" to humans meaning that European explorers unwittingly became carriers of illnesses to which populations like the Aztecs in South America had no immunities.
Naturally the Spanish believed that the disease that cut down over a million native South Americans shortly after they landed was a sign from God that they were free to subvert the natives and colonise their lands - of course we know better these days!
An example often cited by racists is that of Australia where the European colonists quickly formed a viable society and displaced the Aborigines, who had not even mastered writing. Indeed the fact that this was achieved in the same country would seem to disprove everything I've just said until you consider that the Europeans were actually importing their own culture and knowledge from elsewhere - they did not (and have not!) found a better way to survive than the native Aborigines and there are numerous examples of explorers and Missionaries heading into the outback and having to be rescued by the supposedly more primitive natives(!)
So much for racism.
V.
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You seem like a very educated and astute person Vlad. I enjoy reading your posts.
Likewise, thank you!
To clarify my position: I do not judge a person by their skin tone or nationality alone. That is racism. I judge a person based on their actions, attire, manners, education and amiability. But I would like to get your views on a hypothetical situation:
If I were boating on the shores of Somalia and saw a shanty looking boat with 6 Somalians heading towards me, I'd be fucking worried. They could be fishermen, seeing my boat and coming to offer me fresh fish. Would I be racist for my preconceived idea I was about to be the victim of piracy? After all the preconceptions are based purely upon them being black. If I saw six white people coming towards me in a boat, my first thought would likely not involve them having wooden legs and hook hands.
Well at the risk of being facetious what you would probably see is several small, speedboats heading towards you if you were sailing the near the Somali Coast but I take your point!
Of course this kind of profiling might be natural but I wonder if it increases your safety?
There are advocates of racial profiling at Airport Security checkpoints on the basis that a 72 year old white Grandmother is less likely to be carrying a bomb in her bag then the Middle Eastern young man standing behind her.
As one of my idols Bruce Schneier goes on to explain extensively in his blog (see link above), the very idea of having a two track security procedure as it is in itself insecure.
The Chechen bombers on the Russian planes weren't searched as they were women. The infamous shoe bomber was not Middle Eastern in appearance (indeed Muslims are to be found in virtually every ethnicity), and so on.
When you decide to create that kind of "fast track" be it literal or in your mind, people with cruel intentions only need focus their efforts on getting into that one zone rather than being subject to more general scrutiny.
Does this mean that a boat of white people speeding towards you from the Somali coasts are as likely to be pirate as a boat load of black people? What I can tell you is that if I were a Somali Pirate and I knew you'd think this way, I'd simply get together a few white hostages and have them pilot the boats to allay your fears.
If you had a more comprehensive policy of viewing ANY stranger boating towards you with suspicion of course this wouldn't work!
I find the subject of racism fascinating. There are so many variables and components to it. Another thing that puts it into perspective are pet fish. Members of the tetra species that are common place in home aquariums will school together, even though their colours are different (for example Neon, Cardinal and Glowlight). They are not sentient beings, yet when the time calls for it they'll swim together to get out of dangers way. Of course, the Cardinals don't have a handful of members that decided to fly a plane into the Neon's buildings. But that's just humans for you.
If you find this subject interesting I suggest you read Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel." I think I've posted about this before. It's written by an American Anthropologist who spends a lot of time with the native people of New Guinea who until recently were at the same level of development as Iron Age people in the Americas and Europe.
The question he answers throughout his book (hence the title!) is why it is that there are some societies which are splitting the atom and some which have never developed beyond the hunter gatherer lifestyle?
Popular conceit amongst Europeans and European-Americans is that people of other races have inferior intelligence and were supplanted by us superior white folk.
What Diamond explained is that the answer is actually a lot more convoluted than this - firstly you need to live in a climate favourable to abandoning hunting as a means of gathering food as switching to farming.
Having excess food from farming means you can support people who have other uses besides gathering food - like inventors to build boats, and writers to create maps for explorers and pass knowledge on to the next generation, as well as import new ideas from other cultures.
Those societies which settled down often domesticated animals like pigs and cows. They soon found many of their germs mutated and "jumped" to humans meaning that European explorers unwittingly became carriers of illnesses to which populations like the Aztecs in South America had no immunities.
Naturally the Spanish believed that the disease that cut down over a million native South Americans shortly after they landed was a sign from God that they were free to subvert the natives and colonise their lands - of course we know better these days!
An example often cited by racists is that of Australia where the European colonists quickly formed a viable society and displaced the Aborigines, who had not even mastered writing. Indeed the fact that this was achieved in the same country would seem to disprove everything I've just said until you consider that the Europeans were actually importing their own culture and knowledge from elsewhere - they did not (and have not!) found a better way to survive than the native Aborigines and there are numerous examples of explorers and Missionaries heading into the outback and having to be rescued by the supposedly more primitive natives(!)
So much for racism.
V.
I've thus far swayed away from reading any anthropology books but you've officially sold me on Diamond. It's a question I've always wondered my self but never sought the answer to and your reply has already gone much further than my own mind has ever attempted.
You raise a brilliant point regarding racial profiling and it is one I have often considered. Whilst it may seem counter-intuitive, I believe its mere existence will prevent more terror attacks than it's given credit for. There's a reason that the issue is so hotly debated and that is for exposure.
For example; your stereotypical Islam touting terrorist (think Team America) who wants to carry out a terror attack on any scale, now has to find someone else to do the deed, because just being brown and Islamic is reason enough to search you. This creates several more layers of communication and exposure to find someone who aligns with their ideologies but doesn't match their demographic. I think the important thing to consider with this is what profiles exist that aren't talked about. How many white Americans with ties to Islamic communities are monitored purely because of their beliefs, or because terrorist affiliates have been associated to their mosque? Of course this is entering into the realm of conspiracy theories and that's water I occasionally like to entertain, but do not endorse. However, you need only look into the spending budget of US homeland security in recent years to see there is a lot that goes on we don't hear about.
I will definitely check out that blog when I have some spare time, thanks for the recommendations. You have received my second dishing-out of positive karma, for a very well composed post.
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All quite fascinating stuff Vlad. But since you're on the topic and you're from the UK, I kind of have a related question for you.
Though I'm American, over the last decade I've found myself relying strictly on British sources of world news since the writing is so much more articulate with far less bias and stories have far more depth where as American MSM is so dumbed down and corporate. So the Independent and Guardian are sources for probably 90% of my news including news on the US, and no the irony is not lost. ;)
Anyway, from reading various comments over the years on CiF and elsewhere from primarily UK and other European posters, not often but once in a while I've come across a sort of virulent racism, or at least I think it's racism, that I can't quite put my finger on and was hoping you could better explain it to me. These people seem to disguise their prejudices by being strongly and vocally opposed to multiculturalism and their argument goes something like this:
"Multiculturalism is bad because it breeds division and hatreds within the same society. We are not racist, we just want those of other cultures to assimilate into ours to foster understanding and cohesiveness instead of remain suspicious and divided, which is what happens when the left tolerates multiculturalism with blinders on that allows other cultures to come her and remain in their own communities and breed amongst their own."
I've seen this argument made enough times, from Europeans of different nationalities, and it seems to be a semi-legitimate perspective shared maybe by some politicians on the right? Where did this big anti-multiculturalism push come from and what's it all about?
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An excellent question jpinkman and thanks for asking!
I think it's the racists who would like us to believe that this kind of prejudice is very recent but in fact it's old as the hills.
I can tell you in terms of the UK, there's been increasing resentment since the recession of people from Eastern Europe coming to live and work in our country. This has mainly to do with their strong work ethic and the fact they're willing to do many jobs British people wouldn't want to do e.g work as chamber maids in hotels.
While in fact this has been going on for around 60 years now, it's more of a hot topic since countries like Poland joined the European Union and as such have a right to live and work in any other EU country which includes England - I know that many Americans see Europe as a united politica unit but since you follow world news, you'll know this isn't the case!
There are also of course some British people, as indeed there are some Americans who do not have a very outward view and have received a poor level of education, making it difficult for them to understand the need for immigration and fearful of those who speak a different language for instance.
In the UK this type of prejudice has led to some low level support for the British National Party who want to reverse all non white immigration to the British Isles - I have been campaigning against them since 2004 as if they even win one seat in the British or European Parliament, they will receive large amounts of funding.
As you say their general consensus is that segregation will get rid of many of the supposed problems caused by multiculturalism - of course they conveniently forget that it's people like them who cause fear and distrust between communities in the first place!
The counter argument to this runs very much along the lines you said which is that newcomers to our country don't seem to want to assimilate into our culture.
This point of view shows they haven't done their history!
2,000 years ago my country was an unimportant satellite colony of the Roman Empire.
Go forward another 1,000, nearly half of England was governed by Denmark (it was actually they who implemented the idea of a Jury trial - something I point out to people who boast about the English justice system) - around 60 years later the Saxons (descendants of German immigrants) were conquered by Normans from modern day France who imposed their political system and language upon both the Anglo-Saxons and native Celts.
Fast forward another five hundred years or so you see us conquering foreign cultures right left and centre ourselves, including 300 Million Indians - and of course fighting a War of Independence with a rather upstart colony who believed in no taxation without representation. :-)
This is important because when such people say that foreigners can't appreciate our values, what we find is in fact that our values are actually quite recent inventions, which we in turn have borrowed from other cultures!
I'd be interested to know to what extent this is true in the USA - if anything I'd say your country is an excellent example of the multicultural model. I have read that many Republican candidates have gained popularity through guaranteeing to tighten your borders against Mexican immigration and I did see the LA Times was in a flutter about the number of non white births exceeding white ones in the US but for the same reasons I don't think you need worry!
V.
All quite fascinating stuff Vlad. But since you're on the topic and you're from the UK, I kind of have a related question for you.
Though I'm American, over the last decade I've found myself relying strictly on British sources of world news since the writing is so much more articulate with far less bias and stories have far more depth where as American MSM is so dumbed down and corporate. So the Independent and Guardian are sources for probably 90% of my news including news on the US, and no the irony is not lost. ;)
Anyway, from reading various comments over the years on CiF and elsewhere from primarily UK and other European posters, not often but once in a while I've come across a sort of virulent racism, or at least I think it's racism, that I can't quite put my finger on and was hoping you could better explain it to me. These people seem to disguise their prejudices by being strongly and vocally opposed to multiculturalism and their argument goes something like this:
"Multiculturalism is bad because it breeds division and hatreds within the same society. We are not racist, we just want those of other cultures to assimilate into ours to foster understanding and cohesiveness instead of remain suspicious and divided, which is what happens when the left tolerates multiculturalism with blinders on that allows other cultures to come her and remain in their own communities and breed amongst their own."
I've seen this argument made enough times, from Europeans of different nationalities, and it seems to be a semi-legitimate perspective shared maybe by some politicians on the right? Where did this big anti-multiculturalism push come from and what's it all about?
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Thanks for that informative post. I figured that rhetoric was just the same old racism dressed up as enlightened common sense in modern society. Wasn't sure if that's the standard shrill coming from the BNP these days or other National Front organizations. But, as could be predicted since the start of the recession and the recent double dip you guys are experiencing with all the euro and austerity drama that fascism/authoritarianism is once again on the rise. It's the nature of hard times.
And that was a great British history lesson. It's funny when I hear cries for provincialism and need to preserve one's culture. It's so backwards looking. Part of that is probably being American where culture here is relatively recent compared to the centuries of tradition you'll find in Europe so hearing those kinds of sentiments sounds so foreign. But some of the greatest cities in history that served as capitals of empires were due to their diversity and cosmopolitan makeup, incorporating forward leaning progressive ideas with tolerance and acceptance of all different peoples and cultures. Just look at ancient Rome or Babylon even. I see London as really having achieved that level of diversity and totally commend the British people as a society for seeming to instinctively grasp this sophisticated and very secular truism.
So it's very interesting the anti immigration parallels between your country, with the eastern Europeans, and here the obsession with illegal immigrants from Mexico. Incidentally, I only first became aware that the British had a similar obsession after seeing that bizarre sci fi movie Children of Men. Anyway, yes in many ways this is a nation of immigrants which has been called a cultural melting pot. I think assimilation into American "culture" is far more common here by 2nd generation immigrants than you'll necessarily find in your country where non-European immigrants remain more segregated and more likely to attend their own schools, etc.
But at the same time, America is awash with extreme contradictions. You'll find the most intelligent, progressive, and enlightened individuals here yet also the most backwards, religious, and even inbred fundamentalists. There's such a huge cultural chasm between the modern and secular attitudes you'll find on the coasts and in all major metropolitan cities to the conservative, inward looking, and deeply insidious racism in the heartland and states of the "old south". And this clash of cultures seems only to be getting worse instead of improving and is no better reflected than in the extreme polarities and dysfunction evident in American politics. It's a disgrace really how the GOP has shifted so far right to become a party of such extreme intolerance that shuns the very exercise necessary to a functioning democracy ... compromise.
Anyway, what's really made it worse is the rise of Murdoch's propaganda arm over the last decade that makes a farce out of journalistic ethics yet is lapped up and every word believed by those on the right. This has greatly exacerbated the problem where rank and file republicans literally live in an alternative universe with their own sets of facts. The rise of Fox News and influence of right wing talk show hosts on AM radio has really destroyed the quality of discussion as these demagogues whip up a frenzy from the uneducated listeners and viewers that believe their every word. There used to be a fairness doctrine, much like what Britain has in place, that required media to present both sides of an issue. Reagan scrapped it and it's really destroyed the discourse and intelligence of the general public. It's one of the big reasons American media really sucks.
So, we get to the issue of illegal immigration where right wing demagogues have whipped up frenzy that have led to new racist laws in places like Arizona that allows LE to request, based on skin color, legal documents or be immediately deported. I personally can't understand any of it except as a new, clever way to mask these people's virulent racism and prejudice. The illegals that I'm familiar with are the most hard working, law abiding people I know willing to do work Americans won't do and always at a very competitive price. Yet the bullshit that comes from the anti immigrant crowd is absurd, where they characterize most illegals as hardened criminals who, once here, resort to theft, drug trafficking, and all sorts of hard crime. Just nonsense. They want to get out of that failed state known as Mexico where tens of thousands have been assassinated in the crossfire of the disastrous War on Drugs and make a better lives for themselves and their families in the states. Considering how American policy is responsible for utterly destroying their country I don't blame them one bit.
Yeah the non white births story seemed to feature prominently throughout much of US news and I only see it as a good thing. As you seem to implicitly understand the importance of immigrants to a thriving country, americans of all people should be aware of this. So the massive increase of Hispanic immigration to the US, especially those backass southern states, can only be beneficial in turning those rednecks into minorities in their heartland. I personally can't wait.
An excellent question jpinkman and thanks for asking!
I think it's the racists who would like us to believe that this kind of prejudice is very recent but in fact it's old as the hills.
I can tell you in terms of the UK, there's been increasing resentment since the recession of people from Eastern Europe coming to live and work in our country. This has mainly to do with their strong work ethic and the fact they're willing to do many jobs British people wouldn't want to do e.g work as chamber maids in hotels.
While in fact this has been going on for around 60 years now, it's more of a hot topic since countries like Poland joined the European Union and as such have a right to live and work in any other EU country which includes England - I know that many Americans see Europe as a united politica unit but since you follow world news, you'll know this isn't the case!
There are also of course some British people, as indeed there are some Americans who do not have a very outward view and have received a poor level of education, making it difficult for them to understand the need for immigration and fearful of those who speak a different language for instance.
In the UK this type of prejudice has led to some low level support for the British National Party who want to reverse all non white immigration to the British Isles - I have been campaigning against them since 2004 as if they even win one seat in the British or European Parliament, they will receive large amounts of funding.
As you say their general consensus is that segregation will get rid of many of the supposed problems caused by multiculturalism - of course they conveniently forget that it's people like them who cause fear and distrust between communities in the first place!
The counter argument to this runs very much along the lines you said which is that newcomers to our country don't seem to want to assimilate into our culture.
This point of view shows they haven't done their history!
2,000 years ago my country was an unimportant satellite colony of the Roman Empire.
Go forward another 1,000, nearly half of England was governed by Denmark (it was actually they who implemented the idea of a Jury trial - something I point out to people who boast about the English justice system) - around 60 years later the Saxons (descendants of German immigrants) were conquered by Normans from modern day France who imposed their political system and language upon both the Anglo-Saxons and native Celts.
Fast forward another five hundred years or so you see us conquering foreign cultures right left and centre ourselves, including 300 Million Indians - and of course fighting a War of Independence with a rather upstart colony who believed in no taxation without representation. :-)
This is important because when such people say that foreigners can't appreciate our values, what we find is in fact that our values are actually quite recent inventions, which we in turn have borrowed from other cultures!
I'd be interested to know to what extent this is true in the USA - if anything I'd say your country is an excellent example of the multicultural model. I have read that many Republican candidates have gained popularity through guaranteeing to tighten your borders against Mexican immigration and I did see the LA Times was in a flutter about the number of non white births exceeding white ones in the US but for the same reasons I don't think you need worry!
V.
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I grew up in pretty much all-white areas, super middle class.
Then we had one guy who had just come from Bradford (George Galloway now MP) and he was always bitching about 'pakis'. One thing I remember him saying was 'I don't hate niggers but I do hate pakis'.
I was like 'WTF dude, how could you say that?'
Now I've lived in different areas and countries, and I have a bit more understanding. I'm not going to say 'right on man' to the 'I hate pakis', because I ate in a Pakistani place today, and I don't agree with that. The food is good, they serve well, the guy has a bit of a thing of getting us to order WAY too much food, kinda pushy, but you know, whatever. I actually like these people better than your average stuck up English person. But then I don't live with them (my neighbourhood is white, middle class), so it's a different relationship anyway.
But look if you've experienced doing business with different kinds of people then you understand that some people are just easier to deal with. Maybe not for someone else, but for you personally, and that's your free choice and personal opinion and so what, who cares.
My wife has a friend who keeps pushing out kids even though she's had a fucking rectal prolapse as a result. That's because, in my wife's opinion, she comes from an area where women do what their husbands tell them. And the husband wants more kids, so that's what happens. In my wife's area women are more independent, I can't tell her what to do like that.
Anyway, if you don't like working with a particular bunch of people, feel free to say so. I think it can only be a good thing. Some people will see that and say 'I ain't buying from that racist motherfucker', and so it's useful information even for those who disagree.
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Bradford is colloquially known as 'Bradistan'. Though I've never been, I've always expected there would be a higher level of racism amongst the natives.
I find middle and upper class racism a lot more offensive than working class racism. Whilst that is 'classist' in it's self and only a rule of thumb. I tend to find working class racism represents sheer ignorance. They are less educated, less traveled, and they are working in a sector where unskilled immigrants are part and parcel. A lot of people I've seen making racist comments don't say them with conviction, they feel to me like they are merely conforming to fit in with one or two 'ring leaders'. It also gives them an excuse to sit and claim benefits instead of going out to work:
There was an interesting documentary on channel 4 following unemployed Brits working with polish immigrants. The polish folk worked non stop, start to finish where as the Brits whined and complained and only did half of the work. So it seems it is a self inflicted wound as it were, which grants less sympathy from me.
Middle and upper class people tend to base their racism on more specific, hateful things. I find a lot more almost verbally aggressive racism. There's malice to the derogatory words they say, and you can feel their sincerity. There is a lot less conformity amongst these groups too (intelligence tends to have the ability to counteract the social aspect of conformity somewhat).
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Middle and upper class people tend to base their racism on more specific, hateful things. I find a lot more almost verbally aggressive racism. There's malice to the derogatory words they say, and you can feel their sincerity. There is a lot less conformity amongst these groups too (intelligence tends to have the ability to counteract the social aspect of conformity somewhat).
I found this statement interesting. How do you see middle and upper class racism manifest itself in racist statements made?
Here in the states, with middle to upper class tends far more educated on average and visibly proactive racism heavily frowned upon, racism is less vocal and far more subtle and implied rather than verbal insults directed towards people of color. Like landlords not even considering certain people of color because they consider them higher risk to break a lease. Stuff like that. I'm curious what sort of things you might hear from upper class Brits who should know better?
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Who the fuck is this mug?
He's not on SR thank goodness. I've offered not to out him if he changes his seller page. No reply as of yet... It just goes to show we've got a long way to come before we tackle prejudice fully in the UK.
V.
Meh, shit like that should get people band. "No you can't have my drugs or services because you aren't the same colour as me" fucking idiot.
Christ!! In what fucking century we live?? XIX??
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just about every drug that you will ever come across would have passed through an asian's hands at one point or another :)
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A very good point Googleyed - isn't it something like 90% of Europe's Heroin which comes from Afghanistan for instance?
V.
just about every drug that you will ever come across would have passed through an asian's hands at one point or another :)
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So the Independent and Guardian are sources for probably 90% of my news including news on the US, and no the irony is not lost. ;)
LOL fuck me if you read them you are definitely not getting an unbiased opinion. The Guardian and The Independent are as biased to the left as it gets.
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So the Independent and Guardian are sources for probably 90% of my news including news on the US, and no the irony is not lost. ;)
LOL fuck me if you read them you are definitely not getting an unbiased opinion. The Guardian and The Independent are as biased to the left as it gets.
I don't think The Guardian is significantly different from the BBC.
Which is not to say that The Guardian isn't biased to the left!
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So the Independent and Guardian are sources for probably 90% of my news including news on the US, and no the irony is not lost. ;)
LOL fuck me if you read them you are definitely not getting an unbiased opinion. The Guardian and The Independent are as biased to the left as it gets.
I don't think The Guardian is significantly different from the BBC.
Which is not to say that The Guardian isn't biased to the left!
Yeah the Beeb is probably the most biased news outlet in the U.K apart from Channel 4 news (but then they have always been openly left). The only news program I actually watch and respect is Newsnight with Jeremy Paxman because he rinses the fuck out of anyone.
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Well said Limetless,
I'd described him as the verbal equivalent of Chuck Norris :-D
V.
So the Independent and Guardian are sources for probably 90% of my news including news on the US, and no the irony is not lost. ;)
LOL fuck me if you read them you are definitely not getting an unbiased opinion. The Guardian and The Independent are as biased to the left as it gets.
I don't think The Guardian is significantly different from the BBC.
Which is not to say that The Guardian isn't biased to the left!
Yeah the Beeb is probably the most biased news outlet in the U.K apart from Channel 4 news (but then they have always been openly left). The only news program I actually watch and respect is Newsnight with Jeremy Paxman because he rinses the fuck out of anyone.
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Haha yeah I consider him as a bit of a role-model..... ;)
Well said Limetless,
I'd described him as the verbal equivalent of Chuck Norris :-D
V.
So the Independent and Guardian are sources for probably 90% of my news including news on the US, and no the irony is not lost. ;)
LOL fuck me if you read them you are definitely not getting an unbiased opinion. The Guardian and The Independent are as biased to the left as it gets.
I don't think The Guardian is significantly different from the BBC.
Which is not to say that The Guardian isn't biased to the left!
Yeah the Beeb is probably the most biased news outlet in the U.K apart from Channel 4 news (but then they have always been openly left). The only news program I actually watch and respect is Newsnight with Jeremy Paxman because he rinses the fuck out of anyone.
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So the Independent and Guardian are sources for probably 90% of my news including news on the US, and no the irony is not lost. ;)
LOL fuck me if you read them you are definitely not getting an unbiased opinion. The Guardian and The Independent are as biased to the left as it gets.
I stick to the World sections and out of UK politics. I like, for instance, their pull no punches approach to reporting on the US as coming from an external, more impartial source. US MSM is notorious for not providing the full story on a whole range of topics in order to feed certain aspects of the American myth that serves their interest instead of working to expose myths for what they are in order to keep readers better informed. I really resent this. Also, the writing is not dumbed down and you're not treated like a moron. For instance I was reading a news report on CNN not too long ago where somewhere in the middle it mentioned the word "Zionist" that included an explanation in parentheses what a Zionist is. I couldn't fucking believe the reporter and editor thought so little of the American audience that he thought he needed to explain what the word meant. This wasn't even some op-ed about Israelis and Palestinians but a straight news report where an official mentioned the word in a quote. Totally insulting, but given the current state of American MSM and how poorly informed the general public is, somewhat understandable.
I really like the Indy because they'll have really interesting feature stories about some esoteric yet fascinating aspect of world culture having nothing to do with politics that I just don't see in any other newspaper although I admit this doesn't happen as often as it used to. Its overall quality has gone downhill since getting bought by a Russian oligarch and their recent poor choice of layouts has left me strictly a RSS patron.
I often find charges of bias relative to where a person is on the political spectrum. What UK paper would you consider unbiased? I always thought the BBC was supposed to be committed to presenting both sides of an issue because they have to be due to the fairness doctrine, but I don't patronize them so I wouldn't know. Since I'm not inclined to read op-eds, I just find left leaning publications more committed to journalistic ethics and practices when reporting news as opposed to some Murdoch rag. All are still guilty of sensationalism to some extent in order to sell papers, but I've found it much easier to rely on the accuracy of "left" leaning sites in this context.
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The ignorance of some people can be hilarious and sad all at the same time. Its funny that IRL I know of a middle eastern decent person that is actually one of my best connections on illicit products ;)