Silk Road forums

Discussion => Security => Topic started by: hamlet on April 01, 2012, 03:41 pm

Title: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: hamlet on April 01, 2012, 03:41 pm
Sorry if this is an obvious question and sorry if i sound like a cop.

I have been hypothetically growing dope for myself for a few years and currently i sell the
little i don't need at a silly price for safety and convenience.  I understand that getting
to the point where I am a trusted vendor who operates optimally will be necessary before
this is an issue - but it would be nice to have some idea how one would turn SR bitcoins
into cash. Um, hypothetically.

I don't want to buy any proper drugs with the bitcoins mainly because selling them seems
the least secure thing to do with ones hypothetical time. I'm looking for the least risky
and most latent kind of ways that people have heard about people using successfully.

I am in the UK. Hypothetically.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: Reseller on April 01, 2012, 04:11 pm
My preferred methods as a vendor. This might seem like overkill to you, but I do this once a week with several hundred to thousand dollars.

1) Withdraw my coins from SilkRoad to 5-10 instawallet addresses
2) Put coins through Bitcoin Fog for 24H
3) Withdraw to online wallets (Instawallet or Easywallet)
4) Send to desktop based wallet
5) Send to Intersango
6) Sell Coins on marketplace
7) Withdraw cash via BT


Here is a suggestion from Opi, another SR Vendor.
there is aurumxchange.com

you need a utitlity bill and a ID and they wil send you a prepaid visa, its AUTOmatically added cash you pay like 4% to transfer from BTC to USD

and its 25$ for the card
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: Reece on April 01, 2012, 04:37 pm
My preferred methods as a vendor. This might seem like overkill to you, but I do this once a week with several hundred to thousand dollars.

1) Withdraw my coins from SilkRoad to 5-10 instawallet addresses
2) Put coins through Bitcoin Fog for 24H
3) Withdraw to online wallets (Instawallet or Easywallet)
4) Send to desktop based wallet
5) Send to Intersango
6) Sell Coins on marketplace
7) Withdraw cash via BT


You're losing some money through that system (especially if thousands), yet that sounds pretty secure to me.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: SRfan on April 01, 2012, 07:14 pm
My preferred methods as a vendor. This might seem like overkill to you, but I do this once a week with several hundred to thousand dollars.

1) Withdraw my coins from SilkRoad to 5-10 instawallet addresses
2) Put coins through Bitcoin Fog for 24H
3) Withdraw to online wallets (Instawallet or Easywallet)
4) Send to desktop based wallet
5) Send to Intersango
6) Sell Coins on marketplace
7) Withdraw cash via BT


You're losing some money through that system (especially if thousands), yet that sounds pretty secure to me.


Do you have an alternative method you can share?
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: Reseller on April 01, 2012, 08:08 pm
My preferred methods as a vendor. This might seem like overkill to you, but I do this once a week with several hundred to thousand dollars.

1) Withdraw my coins from SilkRoad to 5-10 instawallet addresses
2) Put coins through Bitcoin Fog for 24H
3) Withdraw to online wallets (Instawallet or Easywallet)
4) Send to desktop based wallet
5) Send to Intersango
6) Sell Coins on marketplace
7) Withdraw cash via BT


You're losing some money through that system (especially if thousands), yet that sounds pretty secure to me.

You are losing 2-4% usually. Which can be anywhere from $20-$60 usually. However, this guarantees my anomynoity pretty much and I can actually use the BTC to pay for bills, groceries and more :)
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: googleyed1 on April 01, 2012, 08:26 pm
doesnt withdrawing to desktop purse, generating new purse number, sending to market place to sell,
isnt this all that is needed to clean?
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: Laughing Man on April 01, 2012, 08:53 pm
doesnt withdrawing to desktop purse, generating new purse number, sending to market place to sell,
isnt this all that is needed to clean?
Not even close, those transactions could easily be linked.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: rake on April 01, 2012, 08:58 pm
doesnt withdrawing to desktop purse, generating new purse number, sending to market place to sell,
isnt this all that is needed to clean?

You also want to vary the amounts as well.  If you withdraw 1045.654BTC from SR and 1045.654BTC turns up in your wallet, then its safe to assume that these amounts are linked.  Washing BTC however can be as simple as trading random amounts between different wallets on Virtual Machines.  Completely washing BTC uses a coin tumbler like Bitcoin Fog as the initial transaction path for the coins ends at the tumbler.  You are actually given someone else's coins from the tumbler.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: googleyed1 on April 01, 2012, 09:00 pm
oh ok, good job we cash out only through WU hah ha
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: jochem on April 01, 2012, 09:24 pm
This will leave you with 'clean' coins in the sense that they can't be linked to drugs trade. These are not coins that are 'washed', so if the amounts are large enough (depending on different laws, etc), you'll have to explain your earnings to the IRS/HMRC/tax dude. This can become kinda tricky (although buying and selling BTC would be a pretty good cover). Anyone got some info on how they handle that?
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: rake on April 01, 2012, 09:30 pm
This will leave you with 'clean' coins in the sense that they can't be linked to drugs trade. These are not coins that are 'washed', so if the amounts are large enough (depending on different laws, etc), you'll have to explain your earnings to the IRS/HMRC/tax dude. This can become kinda tricky (although buying and selling BTC would be a pretty good cover). Anyone got some info on how they handle that?

Buy a car wash???  Life imitating art :)
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: hamlet on April 01, 2012, 10:09 pm
Ha! At least i don't have a crackhead partner ;D

Mainly I was wondering if there was an easy way to use the coins to pay for groceries etc and it seems if i research the methods described I would be able to. Many thanks for the detailed replies so far - anyone with any other ideas or tips are always welcome :)

Seems i have a lot to learn and will get Toring - thanks again Silk Road.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: Limetless on April 01, 2012, 10:26 pm
PM'ed you Reseller
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: hamlet on April 01, 2012, 10:42 pm
"7) Withdraw cash via BT"

Apologies - can someone tell me what BT is? I assume it is not British Telecom.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: Limetless on April 01, 2012, 10:54 pm
"7) Withdraw cash via BT"

Apologies - can someone tell me what BT is? I assume it is not British Telecom.

BT means Bank Transfer pal. :)
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: hamlet on April 01, 2012, 11:20 pm
Ah, i see - thank you <3.  Sorry for all my questions, I am rather new to all of this.

I guess I was foolish to think it would be possible to turn bitcoins into cash money without using a bank account! I would be too wary of the taxman to have money coming into my bank account since I would have no way to explain it.

Is it possible to BT to prepaid anonymous cards one could pay for stuff with? I would assume not.

What methods are there to turn bitcoins into cash without using a bank account? Do people sell gold on SR?




Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: Laughing Man on April 02, 2012, 12:10 am
There are various exchangers that will give you cash in mail, WU/MG transfer, etc. for bitcoins. I don't know why you think it's limited to bank transfers.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: hamlet on April 02, 2012, 01:22 am
Cash in mail for bitcoins sounds good. Could someone point me toward a site that would send me pound sterling for bitcoins? A quick Google only found bitcoin vendors.

Thank you again for all your help.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: Limetless on April 02, 2012, 01:24 am
https://intersango.com/

These guys. :)
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: CharasBros on April 02, 2012, 02:38 am
there is many emoneys which been around much longer then bitcoins and many services which offers debit cards to get cash out for those emoney and commission quite low. going that route you, will clean bitcoins same time as you will be cashing liberty for example. and it is "type and go to ATM" operation, with no waiting for bank transfers and cash in envelope. I found this suits me best.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: kakapo on April 02, 2012, 07:18 pm
My preferred methods as a vendor. This might seem like overkill to you, but I do this once a week with several hundred to thousand dollars.

1) Withdraw my coins from SilkRoad to 5-10 instawallet addresses
2) Put coins through Bitcoin Fog for 24H
3) Withdraw to online wallets (Instawallet or Easywallet)
4) Send to desktop based wallet
5) Send to Intersango
6) Sell Coins on marketplace
7) Withdraw cash via BT


Here is a suggestion from Opi, another SR Vendor.
there is aurumxchange.com

you need a utitlity bill and a ID and they wil send you a prepaid visa, its AUTOmatically added cash you pay like 4% to transfer from BTC to USD

and its 25$ for the card

The only flaw I can see is your last step which is the bank transfer.

How are you managing this without using your real name?

Also, your using Intersango. From what I've read you should be very careful using this particular BTC exchange. It appears they're likely to bend over backwards for LE if an investigation takes place.

So, does anyone know how to cash out anonymously?

Lots of people recommend pre-paid debit cards, ones where you can top-up etc. But places like Mt Gox and Intersango require info like your IBAN number, bank acc + sort details.

Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: hamlet on April 02, 2012, 07:57 pm
I had a poke around Intersangos site and saw nothing about cash in the mail? If someone could post a direct link to a site where they offer cash in the mail for bitcoins i would appreciate it.

there is many emoneys which been around much longer then bitcoins and many services which offers debit cards to get cash out for those emoney and commission quite low. going that route you, will clean bitcoins same time as you will be cashing liberty for example. and it is "type and go to ATM" operation, with no waiting for bank transfers and cash in envelope. I found this suits me best.

This is more the kind of thing i was thinking about. I'm more than happy to pay a few points a couple of times if it increases my anonymity. And waiting is always a bit rubbish. Could you point me towards the established emoney brands and the debit card providers who allow you to be nameless? Thanks for posting this its exactly what I was hoping for.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: Laughing Man on April 02, 2012, 08:05 pm
I had a poke around Intersangos site and saw nothing about cash in the mail? If someone could post a direct link to a site where they offer cash in the mail for bitcoins i would appreciate it.

there is many emoneys which been around much longer then bitcoins and many services which offers debit cards to get cash out for those emoney and commission quite low. going that route you, will clean bitcoins same time as you will be cashing liberty for example. and it is "type and go to ATM" operation, with no waiting for bank transfers and cash in envelope. I found this suits me best.

This is more the kind of thing i was thinking about. I'm more than happy to play a few points a couple of times if it increases my anonymity. And waiting is always a bit rubbish. Could you point me towards the established emoney brands and the debit card providers who allow you to be nameless? Thanks for posting this its exactly what I was hoping for.
Liberty Reserve, Pecunix, etc. There's a lot out there.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: DropGuy751 on April 02, 2012, 08:58 pm
I have to disagree with resellers method although it's good it's too lengthy.

Get an LR account.

Withdraw bitcoins from SilkRoad to your own wallet or if your paranoid another wallet on a virtual machine, generate new bitcoin address for every transaction.

Then exchange coins to LR.

Then exchange LR to VCC.

Then buy stuff online for yourself OR buy then sell the stuff and maybe even make a profit with ebay selling or whatever.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: hamlet on April 03, 2012, 12:02 am

Then exchange LR to VCC.


I assume this is not the Vancouver Community College ;P Could you tell me what it is?

Sorry for my lack of knowledge.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: CharasBros on April 03, 2012, 01:56 am

Then exchange LR to VCC.


I assume this is not the Vancouver Community College ;P Could you tell me what it is?

Sorry for my lack of knowledge.


Visa Credit Card - may be
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: Limetless on April 03, 2012, 02:25 am
I have to disagree with resellers method although it's good it's too lengthy.

Get an LR account.

Withdraw bitcoins from SilkRoad to your own wallet or if your paranoid another wallet on a virtual machine, generate new bitcoin address for every transaction.

Then exchange coins to LR.

Then exchange LR to VCC.

Then buy stuff online for yourself OR buy then sell the stuff and maybe even make a profit with ebay selling or whatever.

Actually you if you get a genuinely issued passport with an alternate identity on it, you can open up an account fine and you'll be cushty. Offshore banks are good too.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: Laughing Man on April 03, 2012, 03:01 am

Then exchange LR to VCC.


I assume this is not the Vancouver Community College ;P Could you tell me what it is?

Sorry for my lack of knowledge.


Visa Credit Card - may be
Virtual Credit Card.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: CharasBros on April 03, 2012, 04:51 am

Then exchange LR to VCC.


I assume this is not the Vancouver Community College ;P Could you tell me what it is?

Sorry for my lack of knowledge.


Visa Credit Card - may be
Virtual Credit Card.

thanks, never used virtual one, can it be used to get cash too, same like from plastic?
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: Laughing Man on April 03, 2012, 05:07 am

Then exchange LR to VCC.


I assume this is not the Vancouver Community College ;P Could you tell me what it is?

Sorry for my lack of knowledge.


Visa Credit Card - may be
Virtual Credit Card.

thanks, never used virtual one, can it be used to get cash too, same like from plastic?
It can be used for everything a real one can except in-store purchases.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: jochem on April 03, 2012, 07:35 am
I have to disagree with resellers method although it's good it's too lengthy.

Get an LR account.

Withdraw bitcoins from SilkRoad to your own wallet or if your paranoid another wallet on a virtual machine, generate new bitcoin address for every transaction.

Then exchange coins to LR.

Then exchange LR to VCC.

Then buy stuff online for yourself OR buy then sell the stuff and maybe even make a profit with ebay selling or whatever.
I like this method. I'd suggest still putting your bitcoins through bitfog, but that's easily incorporated in this method.

Two problems with this method, though:
1) You can't use your virtual credit card for everyday shopping (gas, food) or even paying your rent. A physical anonymous card is possible through some shady countries and similar shady lawyers ;).
2) I haven't been able to find a virtual credit card that is anonymous and doesn't make me loose 1/3 of the money I put in. Any pointers to which one I should use?
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: richyrich on April 03, 2012, 09:27 pm
Oops, I just made a thread but after reading every post this is the same topic:

''I opened this thread not for free advice but because everybody who has BTC has the opportunity to get taxfree income but how is this possible in a brilliant way? I was thinking to apply for a prepaid debit or creditcard service and use an ATM to withdraw everything after selling the BTC for a low fee. Of course google came right up with some services but is there anyone who want to discuss this or has any idea, using bank transfer will make you pay taxes in a way after a few years 100%. Please share. ''

I came across bitcoin debit card from panama city which is very interesting but not this part: ''In order to comply with the anti-money laundering and anti-terrorism legislation, including the Know Your Customer (KYC) rules we are required to ask for copys of identification documents. ''

I'll keep looking...
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: Laughing Man on April 03, 2012, 10:05 pm
Those identification documents are pretty easily forged.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: Reseller on April 03, 2012, 11:11 pm
"7) Withdraw cash via BT"

Apologies - can someone tell me what BT is? I assume it is not British Telecom.

BT Infinity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bank transfer haha.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: AbraCadaver on April 05, 2012, 11:22 am
Another idea, but maybe one that's more for the future:

You are your own currency exchange now. Sell Bitcoins to people for cash, in person. Once Silk Road gets more widely known, there may suddenly be a lot more willing f2f buyers than you would have thought...
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: Mister Dank on April 05, 2012, 06:04 pm
Chaumian Blinding
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: QTC on April 05, 2012, 07:03 pm
Chaumian Blinding
I know it's in the spec but I don't think it's actually been implemented yet.
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: MinisterOfAesthetics on April 09, 2012, 06:12 am
so.... i get my btc's through intersango.... in order to fill my intersango account, i have to finance with dwolla.... it's cheap and it's safe, but the problem has always been time.... from dwolla to btc's in my SR account it takes about five days.... the other day, as i was preparing to deposit into my dwolla account, i noticed an option to fill my account instantly.... shit, who wouldn't want that, right??? time saved, main problem solved.... well, i went through their application process and was approved for their little 'credit check'... well it didn't occur to me until just now that dwolla now has my social security number.... can my btc's be tracked back to me if something happens on the sellers end and they find those btc's in his account.... do they have my information on them??? is their any way to launder them that is safe and quick???? i kinda feel like i've been suckered and this instant access to funds was just a ploy to get my social security number.... anybody have any comments or suggestions???
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: Limetless on April 09, 2012, 07:02 am
Yes there is a way to wash your BitCoins, it's called BitCoin Fog, check it out on this URL: http://fogcore5n3ov3tui.onion/?page=index
Title: Re: Hypothetically how would one clean ones bitcoins?
Post by: AbraCadaver on April 09, 2012, 09:32 pm
As far as online wallet providers go, it has to be the blockchain.info wallet service

Main benefits imo:

-no e-mail or details required to sign up
-2 factor authentication (including using hardware Yubikeys)
-Android and iOS apps

Very impressive security features