Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: kmfkewm on March 08, 2012, 10:14 am
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http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2012/03/08/walpole_companys_anonymity_software_aids_elicit_deals/
A Walpole nonprofit company, largely funded by the federal government, is inadvertently providing child pornographers, drug dealers, and other criminals around the world with software that allows them to remain anonymous on the Internet.
The little-known organization, Tor Project Inc., says its free program is designed to help people protect themselves from Internet surveillance. Users include those speaking out against oppressive political regimes in other countries, corporate whistle-blowers, law enforcement officials, and domestic abuse victims.
But the software, which can easily be downloaded from the Tor Project website, also is attracting a growing number of people who trade illegal pornographic material and buy and sell drugs on a part of the Web known as the “darknet,’’ according to federal authorities, advocates for children, and Internet specialists.
Its use for illicit purposes creates new challenges for law enforcement officials hunting increasingly technologically savvy criminals, and highlights the sometimes unwanted consequences of protecting free speech online.
The darknet is “a secret Internet,’’ said Chester Wisniewski, senior adviser at Burlington computer security company Sophos Inc. “It’s free speech to the extreme. It’s really tragic there are some sickos using this same technology for their purposes.’’
The Tor Project is widely considered the largest service in the world that allows users to navigate the Internet anonymously. Andrew Lewman, the organization’s executive director, said he is approached regularly by law enforcement officials whose investigations have been frustrated by Tor technology, which hampers authorities’ ability to identify suspected online criminals and masks the origin of child pornography and drug-dealing websites.
But Lewman said Tor Project and its software can’t be blamed for aiding crimes in the same way cellphone and computer makers should not be held accountable for the misuse of those devices. He has rejected informal requests by law enforcement agencies to create a way for them to identify Tor users, saying it would defeat the purpose of the software. But Lewman said he is willing to help investigators better understand the technology, and provides a link on the Tor website for anybody to report evidence of child pornography.
“I’m not going to compromise Tor,’’ said Lewman, who works out of a small storefront office on Main Street in Walpole. “ ‘Good’ is so relative around the world. I bet the Egyptian government didn’t think their activists were good.’’
Tor stands for “the onion routing’’ project, initiated by the US Naval Research Laboratory in the 1990s to camouflage government communications by sending messages through a system of computers. The project was expanded in 2001 by two Massachusetts Institute of Technology students who made the technology more accessible to civilians. An added feature called “hidden services,’’ launched in 2004, allows people to publish and visit websites without being identified.
In 2005, federal agencies started funding the project with the goal of making the technology easier for the public to use, Lewman said. The next year, it was established as a nonprofit.
Government officials say they support the project because it provides potentially life-saving online security and privacy in places - such as Iran and Syria - where political dissidents often are dealt with harshly. The State Department and two federal agencies - the Broadcasting Board of Governors and the National Science Foundation - are major contributors.
The Tor Project currently has a $1.3 million annual budget, with about 15 full-time and contract employees. It also relies on 3,000 volunteers around the world who provide access to their computers. That allows the company to bounce data from one server to another, making it difficult to track.
“Tor is a publicly available tool. It is used by activists and bloggers, by average US citizens protecting against identity theft, and by military and law enforcement officers conducting investigations and intelligence gathering,’’ a State Department spokesman said.
Lisa-Joy Zgorski, a National Science Foundation spokeswoman, also cited the value of the software. “Any technology can be used for ill,’’ she said. “It is not a reason not to fund the science.’’
The popularity of the Tor Project technology among pedophiles gained media attention last fall when a group of computer hackers associated with the online collective known as Anonymous took aim at child porn websites hidden on the darknet. The so-called hactivists claimed to have disabled several child porn sites as part of an effort dubbed “Operation Darknet’’ or “To catch a predator.’’ As part of its campaign, Anonymous posted a video on YouTube pledging to fight sexual abuse.
“The darknet is a vast sea with many providers, however, we fully intend to make it uninhabitable for these disgusting degenerates,’’ a narrator says in the YouTube video. “We will never turn a deaf ear upon the screams of innocent children.’’
John Shehan, executive director of the Exploited Child Division of the nonprofit National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in Virginia, said its investigators first discovered Tor’s software about 1 1/2 years ago after receiving tips about pornographic images of children sent over the Internet by people who could not be identified. Center officials met with Lewman to figure out how Tor worked.
“It confirmed our suspicions that this product masks identity and it will be a major challenge for law enforcement,’’ Shehan said.
Last June, democratic US senators Charles E. Schumer of New York and Joe Manchin of West Virginia called on federal officials to shut down the website Silk Road, which they called an “online marketplace for illegal drugs’’ that uses Tor technology. Schumer and Manchin were responding to an article by the media site Gawker.com that detailed drug dealing on Silk Road using a digital currency called “bitcoins.’’
Despite the senators’ call for action - addressed to US Attorney General Eric Holder and MicheleLeonhart, the administrator of the Drug Enforcement Administration - Silk Road was still up and running Wednesday.
Representatives from Silk Road did not respond to an e-mail seeking comment Wednesday.
DEA spokesman Rusty Payne said the agency couldn’t comment on the senators’ letter because it is “is part of an ongoing investigation.’’
A Boston Globe editor and reporter were able to access the site after downloading Tor Project software and registering as Silk Road users. Described as an “anonymous marketplace,’’ the site promotes its ability to “protect your identity through every step of the process, from connecting to this site, to purchasing your items, to finally receiving them,’’ through the use of Tor technology. The homepage features pictures of various drugs for sale - including heroin and cocaine - and allows buyers to place them in a shopping cart, similar to those on Amazon and other consumer sites.
In addition to drugs, the site purports to provide access to other illegal products, including forged documents, and links to a separate marketplace called the Armory, designated for “small arms weaponry for the purpose of self defense.’’
Federal law enforcement officials acknowledge that Tor technology makes investigations of suspected illegal online activity more difficult, but they emphasize that it doesn’t mean criminals can avoid detection. For instance, they say, even though an online drug deal may be anonymous, real money eventually has to be exchanged and the buyer must receive a physical package.
Investigators also have become more sophisticated in their efforts to hunt down criminals, they said.
“With any technology, it is going to add complexity to the investigative process,’’ said Russ Brown, supervisor of the Boston Cyber Criminal Squad for the FBI. But Tor, he added, “is certainly not going to end our investigative efforts.’’
Mathematician Paul Syverson, an inventor of Tor technology at the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, D.C., said it is unfortunate that the software is used to do harm. But while unsavory people already have various ways to disguise their identities, he said, fewer options are available for Internet users such as domestic abuse victims seeking to avoid stalkers or whistle-blowers trying to dodge online surveillance.
“There are lots of different reasons why somebody wants to protect the network location of what they are doing,’’ Syverson said. “There are people doing bad things, but that is not what we made [Tor] for. There’s lots of people using it for good things, too.’’
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Sigh things like CP and weaponry cause much more attention to be drawn to this whole thing.
Someday maybe we'll live in a country where a man is free to do what he pleases within the confines of his home, harming no one. Let the ones that choose this and overdose without adequate insurance, so be it, its our choice don't tell me you don't understand the risks using substances.. Let me die on the steps of the hospital, I'm fine with that because I'm not stupid with what is used. >:(
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this ain't good news for our community... i hate this pedos who just use tor-network for their cp-stuff, which is disgusting. they should all get imprisoned, cut into pieces and feed to the dogs... i can't explain myself, how such cruel animals are human beings... i hate that too, that there is again such a great attention on tor-network... we don't need that kind of thing, tor is meant to be like a deep water or something and not publicity like... they should better take care of other stuff!
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they should all get imprisoned, cut into pieces and feed to the dogs... i can't explain myself, how such cruel animals are human beings...
Maybe you should ask yourself?
i hate that too, that there is again such a great attention on tor-network... we don't need that kind of thing, tor is meant to be like a deep water or something and not publicity like... they should better take care of other stuff!
Actually people were trading CP on Tor far before anyone was using it for drugs. SR is actually what brought all of the recent attention to Tor, not the CP sites. Fuck SR has gotten Tor more negative media attention than Wikileaks did!
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But the sad reality is that the child porn pedos are less likely to be caught than SR users. Buying something from SR means you have to have Bitcoins, which just might be traced back to you. Also, you have to pick up the package you ordered, which may result in a face-to-face meeting with postal inspectors and your local LE. CP pedos just trade stuff, from what I hear, and never have to deal with the mail service.
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I think its time for a revolution. :)
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But the sad reality is that the child porn pedos are less likely to be caught than SR users. Buying something from SR means you have to have Bitcoins, which just might be traced back to you. Also, you have to pick up the package you ordered, which may result in a face-to-face meeting with postal inspectors and your local LE. CP pedos just trade stuff, from what I hear, and never have to deal with the mail service.
Yeah CP trading is much more secure than drug trading.
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But the sad reality is that the child porn pedos are less likely to be caught than SR users. Buying something from SR means you have to have Bitcoins, which just might be traced back to you. Also, you have to pick up the package you ordered, which may result in a face-to-face meeting with postal inspectors and your local LE. CP pedos just trade stuff, from what I hear, and never have to deal with the mail service.
Yeah CP trading is much more secure than drug trading.
O.K. kmfkewm, enlighten us. Let's say a CP user sticks to using only Tor. He doesn't have to worry about the security issues inherent with the purchase of Bitcoins, & he never has to have a package delivered through the mail, so he doesn't have to worry about postal inspectors opening his mail & seeing what's inside. Why would a CP user have as much to fear as a buyer on SR?
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CP traders don't have nearly as much to worry about compared to drug traders, I agreed with you.
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this ain't good news for our community... i hate this pedos who just use tor-network for their cp-stuff, which is disgusting. they should all get imprisoned, cut into pieces and feed to the dogs... i can't explain myself, how such cruel animals are human beings... i hate that too, that there is again such a great attention on tor-network... we don't need that kind of thing, tor is meant to be like a deep water or something and not publicity like... they should better take care of other stuff!
Hmm... I think you misunderstand much of the problem with paedophiles.
A large number of them want to stop, but they arent given the support to stop, and b) dont know where they could get help if it was offered.
Did you know that in the US, if you are a paedophile and admit to it during a therapy session with a licensed psychologist then they are required to actually tell the cops about it? Then the cops rock up and you get arrested.
This = no fucking support for the people who need it most.
Your attitude is what creates more perverted paedophiles/child pornographers.
Paedophilia is not what irritates me particularly much. But ignorant motherfuckers who dont use their mind to work out that a problem like this needs to be fixed in a different way to the way that we have previously approached it.
Perhaps a government initiative for online counselling over Tor for paedophiles? Perhaps use the funding that is currently used to build prisons to counsel paedophiles and hopefully instigate some kind of social change? Maybe try and be a bit more open minded and empathic about other peoples problems rather than assuming that you are right and they are wrong?
Maybe its just me but it seems that there is too much harsh talk of despicable people and not enough talk of turning them into accepted, productive and eventually loving members of society.
Sorry for the rant, (also sorry for getting off topic)
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this ain't good news for our community... i hate this pedos who just use tor-network for their cp-stuff, which is disgusting. they should all get imprisoned, cut into pieces and feed to the dogs... i can't explain myself, how such cruel animals are human beings... i hate that too, that there is again such a great attention on tor-network... we don't need that kind of thing, tor is meant to be like a deep water or something and not publicity like... they should better take care of other stuff!
Hmm... I think you misunderstand much of the problem with paedophiles.
A large number of them want to stop, but they arent given the support to stop, and b) dont know where they could get help if it was offered.
Did you know that in the US, if you are a paedophile and admit to it during a therapy session with a licensed psychologist then they are required to actually tell the cops about it? Then the cops rock up and you get arrested.
This = no fucking support for the people who need it most.
Your attitude is what creates more perverted paedophiles/child pornographers.
Paedophilia is not what irritates me particularly much. But ignorant motherfuckers who dont use their mind to work out that a problem like this needs to be fixed in a different way to the way that we have previously approached it.
Perhaps a government initiative for online counselling over Tor for paedophiles? Perhaps use the funding that is currently used to build prisons to counsel paedophiles and hopefully instigate some kind of social change? Maybe try and be a bit more open minded and empathic about other peoples problems rather than assuming that you are right and they are wrong?
Maybe its just me but it seems that there is too much harsh talk of despicable people and not enough talk of turning them into accepted, productive and eventually loving members of society.
Sorry for the rant, (also sorry for getting off topic)
tl;dr: "i fuck kids"
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this ain't good news for our community... i hate this pedos who just use tor-network for their cp-stuff, which is disgusting. they should all get imprisoned, cut into pieces and feed to the dogs... i can't explain myself, how such cruel animals are human beings... i hate that too, that there is again such a great attention on tor-network... we don't need that kind of thing, tor is meant to be like a deep water or something and not publicity like... they should better take care of other stuff!
Hmm... I think you misunderstand much of the problem with paedophiles.
A large number of them want to stop, but they arent given the support to stop, and b) dont know where they could get help if it was offered.
Did you know that in the US, if you are a paedophile and admit to it during a therapy session with a licensed psychologist then they are required to actually tell the cops about it? Then the cops rock up and you get arrested.
This = no fucking support for the people who need it most.
Your attitude is what creates more perverted paedophiles/child pornographers.
Paedophilia is not what irritates me particularly much. But ignorant motherfuckers who dont use their mind to work out that a problem like this needs to be fixed in a different way to the way that we have previously approached it.
Perhaps a government initiative for online counselling over Tor for paedophiles? Perhaps use the funding that is currently used to build prisons to counsel paedophiles and hopefully instigate some kind of social change? Maybe try and be a bit more open minded and empathic about other peoples problems rather than assuming that you are right and they are wrong?
Maybe its just me but it seems that there is too much harsh talk of despicable people and not enough talk of turning them into accepted, productive and eventually loving members of society.
Sorry for the rant, (also sorry for getting off topic)
tl;dr: "i fuck kids"
I dont fuck kids.
I was sexually abused as a child as was my sibling.
I dont hate paedophiles. I hate the system that isolates and ostracizes them without providing support.
Stop being a blind unthinking scrotum.
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this ain't good news for our community... i hate this pedos who just use tor-network for their cp-stuff, which is disgusting. they should all get imprisoned, cut into pieces and feed to the dogs... i can't explain myself, how such cruel animals are human beings... i hate that too, that there is again such a great attention on tor-network... we don't need that kind of thing, tor is meant to be like a deep water or something and not publicity like... they should better take care of other stuff!
Hmm... I think you misunderstand much of the problem with paedophiles.
A large number of them want to stop, but they arent given the support to stop, and b) dont know where they could get help if it was offered.
Did you know that in the US, if you are a paedophile and admit to it during a therapy session with a licensed psychologist then they are required to actually tell the cops about it? Then the cops rock up and you get arrested.
This = no fucking support for the people who need it most.
Your attitude is what creates more perverted paedophiles/child pornographers.
Paedophilia is not what irritates me particularly much. But ignorant motherfuckers who dont use their mind to work out that a problem like this needs to be fixed in a different way to the way that we have previously approached it.
Perhaps a government initiative for online counselling over Tor for paedophiles? Perhaps use the funding that is currently used to build prisons to counsel paedophiles and hopefully instigate some kind of social change? Maybe try and be a bit more open minded and empathic about other peoples problems rather than assuming that you are right and they are wrong?
Maybe its just me but it seems that there is too much harsh talk of despicable people and not enough talk of turning them into accepted, productive and eventually loving members of society.
Sorry for the rant, (also sorry for getting off topic)
I have the perfect cure for them all! It's guaranteed to work 100%! 230 grains of lead...
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this ain't good news for our community... i hate this pedos who just use tor-network for their cp-stuff, which is disgusting. they should all get imprisoned, cut into pieces and feed to the dogs... i can't explain myself, how such cruel animals are human beings... i hate that too, that there is again such a great attention on tor-network... we don't need that kind of thing, tor is meant to be like a deep water or something and not publicity like... they should better take care of other stuff!
Hmm... I think you misunderstand much of the problem with paedophiles.
A large number of them want to stop, but they arent given the support to stop, and b) dont know where they could get help if it was offered.
Did you know that in the US, if you are a paedophile and admit to it during a therapy session with a licensed psychologist then they are required to actually tell the cops about it? Then the cops rock up and you get arrested.
This = no fucking support for the people who need it most.
Your attitude is what creates more perverted paedophiles/child pornographers.
Paedophilia is not what irritates me particularly much. But ignorant motherfuckers who dont use their mind to work out that a problem like this needs to be fixed in a different way to the way that we have previously approached it.
Perhaps a government initiative for online counselling over Tor for paedophiles? Perhaps use the funding that is currently used to build prisons to counsel paedophiles and hopefully instigate some kind of social change? Maybe try and be a bit more open minded and empathic about other peoples problems rather than assuming that you are right and they are wrong?
Maybe its just me but it seems that there is too much harsh talk of despicable people and not enough talk of turning them into accepted, productive and eventually loving members of society.
Sorry for the rant, (also sorry for getting off topic)
I have the perfect cure for them all! It's guaranteed to work 100%! 230 grains of lead...
Kilgore has a very good point and you'd all do better listening rather than retorting with hatred in the same manner people react to those "evil" drugs. Take your emotions out of this and have a rational discussion.
The fact of the matter is that human sexuality is diverse. People get off on everything from your regular vanilla straight missionary sex to piss & crap to prepubescent children. Most things aren't an issue except for the latter because children are generally recognized as not having the capacity to consent to sex. With this reality firmly in place, how do we proceed in a rational way in order to reduce harm? Ofcourse when it comes to cases where a pedo has abused a child then I agree that they should be punished. However, in the case of a pedo who hasn't acted out on their desires yet, what is to be done? Should they be sought out and offered help, thus reducing the number of potential child predators or do we entertain talk of "230 grains of lead..."
The latter sounds a lot like the tough on crime BS that politicians spew out when they need to get reelected.
P.S. Let me know when the threat of punishment stops you from doing drugs and I'll gladly concede to all your points.
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CP and drugs, gee, I really hope they shut this Tor thing down. We need these victimless crimes to end now!
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I think Czech Republic has the best method of dealing with pedophiles; harsh penalties for child abuse, legalized CP possession but not distribution or production, 15 year age of consent. The standard libertarian position seems to be that distribution should be legal as well as possession, with only production outlawed. I can entirely see their logic in that position and could probably be converted to it, but I see distribution as being much more grey area than production (clearly not moral) and posession (clearly not immoral). Certainly paying for production should be illegal, and maybe it is unfair regulation to prevent sites that host CP from charging for bandwidth fees or hosting advertisements, but I think the risk of creating a finanical market in child abuse via distributors as a sort of financial middle man, is substantial. There are also issues with violation of privacy which I think are far better founded in cases of distribution versus simple possession. But I can totally understand the libertarian argument (only production and directly paying for production should be outlawed) on a logical level, and unfortunately I am probably falling victim to emotional reasoning :/.
Right now I am certain that the war on CP is largely just another scheme to fill up prison beds, there is no proven correlation between CP possession and child molestation and there are multiple studies claiming both ways. Considering there are numerous examples of fraud from one side of the debate, I tend to automatically discredit their studies when there is any lack of consensus. Pedophilia is simply a chronic mental disorder it is really strange to me when I see people who are so violent and hateful of them. People are not hateful of people with schizophrenia or bi polar disorder are they? As long as pedophiles don't create victims who cares, same way not every heroin user is going to shoot up a gas station for his next fix. They should be allowed to do anything they want that doesn't create victims, and the only even half decent argument against legalized CP possession is violation of privacy, but unfortunately nobody should think that they have a realistic chance of privacy when their photo goes on the internet, and it is the fault of the people who put it on the internet (at least the original poster, possibly secondary as well as per my earlier argument) not the fault of the people who look at it after it is available.
CP makes it easy to find pedophiles via traffic analysis, people hate pedophiles from media scare mongering and propaganda that doesn't reflect reality, people want pedophiles to be sent to prison so they feel safer, LE create databases of millions of pedophiles via traffic analysis and then get ever increasing budgets to be able to put larger and larger %s of them in prison. LE budgets increase, new prisons are built, more law enforcement are hired, more parole and probation officers are hired, software companies get massive contracts / benefits for making counter CP tools for investigators, rehabilitation centers get money, government gets an excuse to monitor us all even closer, tons of completely harmless people go to prison to get a few bad ones. It's such a familiar story.
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The legalisation of CP possession effectively legalises the cause of a substantial amount of CP production. This cause being the profit motive caused by its demand. There is definitely then, a consequentialist argument for the illegality of CP possession even though it doesn't necessarily break the harm principle.
kmfkewm, what do you mean by 'paying for production'? Surely the members of any site with a fee based membership system are, both collectively and individually, paying for production?
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The legalisation of CP possession effectively legalises the cause of a substantial amount of CP production. This cause being the profit motive caused by its demand. There is definitely then, a consequentialist argument for the illegality of CP possession even though it doesn't necessarily break the harm principle.
kmfkewm, what do you mean by 'paying for production'? Surely the members of any site with a fee based membership system are, both collectively and individually, paying for production?
Commercial CP production is actually very rare. There have been some big for profit studies in eastern Europe, but they all were shut down eventually. The majority of profit made off of CP is a reward for the risk of hosting it / advertising its availability to a large enough audience (usually with illegal massive spam campaigns), and providing the required bandwidth, which is paid via membership fees. These days these paid membership sites are few and far between (I believe the last group that was busted running a membership CP network led to 100% of all known for profit membership based CP sites being taken down, they operated a network of several hundred pay sites on a botnet), the vast majority of CP is freely traded on P2P networks. Somebody will probably come to fill their place, but it isn't the tremendous for profit market that it is made out to be. Only slow people / technologically green people tend to actually pay for CP (although there are plenty of these people on the internet...). The for profit sites are just as often not directly associated with production (instead gathering material from P2P networks and Tor and Freenet and reselling it with membership packages to people who don't know any better). Although some for profit sites have been directly tied to production studios, purchasing and funding the creation of original material. It is obvious that the for profit sites that contribute financially to production studios, should be outlawed. It is less clear to me that the sites that do not become involved with production, should be banned from making a profit (and hardline libertarians would say that this should not be outlawed).
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quit lookin at CP bro
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Meh you can learn everything I said here from reading case studies. I have read the case studies of pretty much every major CP operation in USA and lots in other countries as well. There is no better way to see the cutting edge of police operations against cyber crime, the amount of documentation and level of technical detail provided is actually quite substantial.
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Commercial CP production is actually very rare. There have been some big for profit studies in eastern Europe, but they all were shut down eventually. The majority of profit made off of CP is a reward for the risk of hosting it / advertising its availability to a large enough audience (usually with illegal massive spam campaigns), and providing the required bandwidth, which is paid via membership fees. These days these paid membership sites are few and far between (I believe the last group that was busted running a membership CP network led to 100% of all known for profit membership based CP sites being taken down, they operated a network of several hundred pay sites on a botnet), the vast majority of CP is freely traded on P2P networks. Somebody will probably come to fill their place, but it isn't the tremendous for profit market that it is made out to be. Only slow people / technologically green people tend to actually pay for CP (although there are plenty of these people on the internet...). The for profit sites are just as often not directly associated with production (instead gathering material from P2P networks and Tor and Freenet and reselling it with membership packages to people who don't know any better). Although some for profit sites have been directly tied to production studios, purchasing and funding the creation of original material. It is obvious that the for profit sites that contribute financially to production studios, should be outlawed. It is less clear to me that the sites that do not become involved with production, should be banned from making a profit (and hardline libertarians would say that this should not be outlawed).
Interesting read, as you can see I'm not very knowledgeable in this area and didn't know commercial production was so rare. We pretty much agree then, well my old self would agree, I've now moved towards moral nihilism and therefore even though I feel that CP production is disgusting (thanks to evolutionary psychology and current social norms) I can't actually condemn it.
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I think its time for a revolution. :)
Has been for a long time. It's a shame that 50% of us are completely numb to life, and the other 50% are too afraid to stand up for what they believe in. Occupying little parks, holding signs, and shouting slogans doesn't do shit. We need to get that same attitude towards passing bills, and voting. use that same determination when they veto it, and FIGHT BACK. They can't imprison the vast majority of the populace.
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CP may be some nasty shit, but the overzealous response to it does more harm than good. Want a really draconian law passed? Say it's necessary to "end" CP. Don't like someone? Plant CP on their computer; it's literally a digital death sentence in many ways.
If some 45 year old schoolteacher is found with 50GB of this shit, the response is understandable. The problem is that college kids and even teenagers end up being charged with CP-related offenses and receive prison time and sex offender status for downloading a couple of files from a file sharing network, likely by accident. Innocent people are essentially ruined for having old, uncredited pics/videos that were publicly floating around on a P2P network. No CP creators will ever know that these guys downloaded their crap on Kazaa. Many will continue to create it and upload it anonymously because they have a compulsion to do so regardless of how many people they think are watching it.
If the feds can't catch the real perv networks that indulge in CP, they shouldn't take it out on people who just happen to glance at the shit. If I accidentally downloaded and watched horse porn, I guess I'm automatically into bestiality now. What about the people who get off to watching taliban executions or American troops being blown up? I can download, watch, believe in, and even masturbate to what amounts to enemy fucking propaganda encouraging the murder of my fellow citizens, and no one is going to send the partyvan to my door in a hurry. I'll probably be put under surveillance and may get harassed, but I won't face any serious jail time or have to register as a sex offender. On the other hand, you can be 9 years old and download a file of a 9 year old stripping and have a SWAT team come through the roof trying to charge you as an adult, referring to you as a "9 year old pedophile". It's actually kind of hilarious, in a sad, ironic way.
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sourman: you have a good point.
However my original point remains and you guys stray a little. As opposed to trying to instigate social change through punishment of the "guilty", view them as sick until proven unfixable. Some of them might not want to be fixed and thats fine, lock em up. But the ones that want to stop , give them support to do so.
A little bit of social amnesty as well would probably go a long way to help the people who need it.
The easiest way to stop a problem of serial abuse is to treat the abuser.
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CP and drugs, gee, I really hope they shut this Tor thing down. We need these victimless crimes to end now!
Victimless! ReallY? How about the child?
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CP and drugs, gee, I really hope they shut this Tor thing down. We need these victimless crimes to end now!
Victimless! ReallY? How about the child?
Does the act of seeing a visual historic record of victim causing crime create a victim, or must the victim already have been created for the evidence to exist? People argue that viewing CP is an act of so called "revictimization", but not that viewing pictures of the holocaust is. Then they say that it is the act of taking joy from a victim causing crime that causes the revictimization to take place, but it isn't illegal to be happy when a person has been murdered, only to commit murder. I can not logically comprehend what differentiates images of one sort of victim causing crime from another. I can not logically comprehend what differentiates one mans experience of joy from the result of a crime from anothers. I can only use logic to see the analytical flaws of those who do see such differentiations. However, in several cases there is no flaw, as their desire is merely to excuse the injustice that they do to people who they find to be morally disgusting, often for having a mental illness or for not conforming to the baseless and hypocritical standards of synthetically produced American political correctness.
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One could argue it helps create a market and demand for new images which transitively creates new victims.
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And one could break out typologies of CP offenders and show that only a tiny fraction of producers, extreme exhibitionists, produce CP merely because they know others will view it. Some CP is produced for commercial reasons, although this is incredibly rare today. And the payment for child pornography production is an entirely different matter than the possession or distribution of child pornography, these issues are not mutually inclusive. In some cases CP trading groups require the posting of unique material every certain period of time, in order for membership to be maintained. This sort of distribution structure does encourage the creation of new child pornography, as after a while members will have trouble finding new unique material without producing it themselves. From a strict libertarian point of view even this sort of membership structure would not be outlawed, as it merely promotes harm rather than technically ensuring it. From a risk to rights perspective it should probably be outlawed though, simply because it strongly encourages production and is not required for either the possession or distribution of CP. A significant amount of CP is also self produced and in some cases intentionally distributed.
One may also argue that viewing child pornography increases the probability of CP offenders victimizing children.
One may also argue that viewing child pornography decreases the probability of CP offenders victimizing children.
Both people will be able to cite many research papers.
The people who publish the research papers arguing for the first opinion can also quickly have many citations given for instances where they falsified statistics. I also see that they routinely falsify data in all areas in which they operate.
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I actually liked the article very much. It was neutral and informative, and while it did point out (correctly) that Tor is mostly used for trading drugs and CP, it also made a point of explaining that this isn't what the software is for, and underlining how involved the US government was in its inception.
As far as media coverage goes, I don't think it gets much better than this.
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I see CP everytime I walk into the grocery store. Little girls painted up, and dressed up like whores.
I hear it's on the TV, now, too.
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I actually liked the article very much. IT was neutral and informative, and while it did point out (correctly) that Tor is mostly used for trading drugs and CP, it also made a point of explaining that this isn't what the software is for, and underlining how involved the US government was in its inception.
As far as media coverage goes, I don't think it gets much better than this.
I actually liked it too, I don't know why I put called out in the title it makes it seem like I didn't like the article.
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And one could break out typologies of CP offenders and show that only a tiny fraction of producers, extreme exhibitionists, produce CP merely because they know others will view it. Some CP is produced for commercial reasons, although this is incredibly rare today. And the payment for child pornography production is an entirely different matter than the possession or distribution of child pornography, these issues are not mutually inclusive. In some cases CP trading groups require the posting of unique material every certain period of time, in order for membership to be maintained. This sort of distribution structure does encourage the creation of new child pornography, as after a while members will have trouble finding new unique material without producing it themselves. From a strict libertarian point of view even this sort of membership structure would not be outlawed, as it merely promotes harm rather than technically ensuring it. From a risk to rights perspective it should probably be outlawed though, simply because it strongly encourages production and is not required for either the possession or distribution of CP. A significant amount of CP is also self produced and in some cases intentionally distributed.
One may also argue that viewing child pornography increases the probability of CP offenders victimizing children.
One may also argue that viewing child pornography decreases the probability of CP offenders victimizing children.
Both people will be able to cite many research papers.
The people who publish the research papers arguing for the first opinion can also quickly have many citations given for instances where they falsified statistics. I also see that they routinely falsify data in all areas in which they operate.
I don't care about whoever viewing computer generated CP, If there isn't a child involved. But that child/person is still out there somewhere and was exploited? Its fucked up! The Holocaust needs to be seen so we will not repeat it. And its most def not good for the road!
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I see CP everytime I walk into the grocery store. Little girls painted up, and dressed up like whores.
I hear it's on the TV, now, too.
Yeah sounds like maybe its you with the issues, if you regard little girls as whores. Moron
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And one could break out typologies of CP offenders and show that only a tiny fraction of producers, extreme exhibitionists, produce CP merely because they know others will view it. Some CP is produced for commercial reasons, although this is incredibly rare today. And the payment for child pornography production is an entirely different matter than the possession or distribution of child pornography, these issues are not mutually inclusive. In some cases CP trading groups require the posting of unique material every certain period of time, in order for membership to be maintained. This sort of distribution structure does encourage the creation of new child pornography, as after a while members will have trouble finding new unique material without producing it themselves. From a strict libertarian point of view even this sort of membership structure would not be outlawed, as it merely promotes harm rather than technically ensuring it. From a risk to rights perspective it should probably be outlawed though, simply because it strongly encourages production and is not required for either the possession or distribution of CP. A significant amount of CP is also self produced and in some cases intentionally distributed.
One may also argue that viewing child pornography increases the probability of CP offenders victimizing children.
One may also argue that viewing child pornography decreases the probability of CP offenders victimizing children.
Both people will be able to cite many research papers.
The people who publish the research papers arguing for the first opinion can also quickly have many citations given for instances where they falsified statistics. I also see that they routinely falsify data in all areas in which they operate.
I don't care about whoever viewing computer generated CP, If there isn't a child involved. But that child/person is still out there somewhere and was exploited? Its fucked up! The Holocaust needs to be seen so we will not repeat it. And its most def not good for the road!
What about pictures of murdered bodies? Bank robberies? Battered people? Bodies killed in drunk diving accidents? 'Was' is the key word in your sentence, but you are using it to argue for 'is currently being' for some reason.
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Does it sketch anyone else out that Tor began as a government project and is still (at least partially) funded by the government to this day?
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wow it feels like the ice is somewhat thin here to argue. Esp. if English is not your native language but I have to bring my point here.
I love the whole idea of anonymity in the net and therefor TOR. The article said what the main point of tor is: "Freedom of Speech". The right to say what you want and even, or better exactly if it is "HELP US WE GET MURDERED!" (like i.e. in Syrien were Annan tried to calm things a bit down.. and failed)
I like to alter my mind or just to fog it sometimes. So yes, I like drugs. Anonymity through tor and PGP gives me the option to satisfy me. So I use it.
Hey I like sex, too. Sometimes I consume porn. (wasnt the internet made for it?!) youporn redtu... ah you know them all I guess. No problem here, too. Here I dont need tor I just stream this shit. No need to have those files stored.
But after I began using tor I was so excited from the whole new world I just discovered that it was clear for me to look closer at the so called "darknet". So I found the hidden wiki and some DIRs.
looked at some forums and checked here and there.
Was on some forums where they gave, free to read for everyone, instructions, how to kidnap a child and coming away with it. I was so ashamed of myself that I just read it. There are instructions how to get a child to make what you want. :o
No this is def. a no go! But that is what "free speaking" stands for. The right to say what you want.
Now that, this was not the type of information I am searching for. And from there on I never clicked or will click on anything I know there is CP in. It is just not for me. I just feels wrong so wrong.
On the other hand I have seen things way more violent, cruel or freaking. The Inet is full of it.
Real War, murder, accidents, medical things...
Now that I think of it, it seems like CP has an other dimension of "wrong" in my head.
I have seen small kids getting murdered or mutilated in vids and found it hard to watch, but could watch at it. But I dont know if I could watch a movie7Clip of CP. (I mean the pre puberty, babies and so on, not the grils that look like woman).
Tor is important for many reasons and has its downfall, too.
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I see CP everytime I walk into the grocery store. Little girls painted up, and dressed up like whores.
I hear it's on the TV, now, too.
Yeah sounds like maybe its you with the issues, if you regard little girls as whores. Moron
So, it's not badorporn as long as no one is diddlin them? Are you fucking kidding me, moron?!? Someone tries to dress MY daughter up like that, take pictures, enter "pageants", wearing fucking makeup at 3 years old, and doing booty dances on the stage for points? Sorry, it's CP. It's nasty, and it's wrong. Little girls should NOT be subjected to that. It's not me who's fucked, it's the parents....remember Jon Bonet Ramsey???
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I see CP everytime I walk into the grocery store. Little girls painted up, and dressed up like whores.
I hear it's on the TV, now, too.
Yeah sounds like maybe its you with the issues, if you regard little girls as whores. Moron
So, it's not badorporn as long as no one is diddlin them? Are you fucking kidding me, moron?!? Someone tries to dress MY daughter up like that, take pictures, enter "pageants", wearing fucking makeup at 3 years old, and doing booty dances on the stage for points? Sorry, it's CP. It's nasty, and it's wrong. Little girls should NOT be subjected to that. It's not me who's fucked, it's the parents....remember Jon Bonet Ramsey???
I couldn't agree more! But your attacking and calling a little girl a whole? Its the parents with the mental problems not the little girls. I think were in general agreement its your wording is so harsh. I think all child exploitation is wrong! Let them grow up already! I personally feel that it harms SR to have CP, And maybe this is the wrong forum for this debate. And I'm glad I'm not your daughter! You still sound like a moron
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I see CP everytime I walk into the grocery store. Little girls painted up, and dressed up like whores.
I hear it's on the TV, now, too.
Yeah sounds like maybe its you with the issues, if you regard little girls as whores. Moron
So, it's not badorporn as long as no one is diddlin them? Are you fucking kidding me, moron?!? Someone tries to dress MY daughter up like that, take pictures, enter "pageants", wearing fucking makeup at 3 years old, and doing booty dances on the stage for points? Sorry, it's CP. It's nasty, and it's wrong. Little girls should NOT be subjected to that. It's not me who's fucked, it's the parents....remember Jon Bonet Ramsey???
I couldn't agree more! But your attacking and calling a little girl a whole? Its the parents with the mental problems not the little girls. I think were in general agreement its your wording is so harsh. I think all child exploitation is wrong! Let them grow up already! I personally feel that it harms SR to have CP, And maybe this is the wrong forum for this debate. And I'm glad I'm not your daughter! You still sound like a moron
wait, where do we have CP on SR? Or do you mean the .onion network?
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If i may, add my opinion on this sensitive subject.To me CP,the very act itself is,IMO,is just not right somehow.But bear in mind that this behaviour is not a new subject to society in general!During the 70s..there was a magazine or media company called "color climax corporation".It was the first to produce commercial child pornography films!That company produced 30 over or more 10-minute films for its so called "Lolita series".Those films featured young girls, mainly with men, but sometimes with women or other children.The girls were mainly aged 7–11, however some were younger.Now, Im in no way shape or form justifying for these acts!And in no fucking way am i freaking child lover!But there is a read on this kind of behaviour .wikileaks.info/wiki/An_insight_into_child_porn/index.html.
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If i may, add my opinion on this sensitive subject.To me CP,the very act itself is,IMO,is just not right somehow.But bear in mind that this behaviour is not a new subject to society in general!During the 70s..there was a magazine or media company called "color climax corporation".It was the first to produce commercial child pornography films!That company produced 30 over or more 10-minute films for its so called "Lolita series".Those films featured young girls, mainly with men, but sometimes with women or other children.The girls were mainly aged 7–11, however some were younger.Now, Im in no way shape or form justifying for these acts!And in no fucking way am i freaking child lover!But there is a read on this kind of behaviour .wikileaks.info/wiki/An_insight_into_child_porn/index.html.
It is a sensitive issue! and I'm not saying there is already CP on the SR? I'm only saying its not a victimless crime! Is there really a debate here? These are not dead bodies! There active members of society that were exploited as children. Maybe I'm missing something here?
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... while it did point out (correctly) that Tor is mostly used for trading drugs and CP, it also made a point of explaining that this isn't what the software is for ...
Tor is mostly used for trading drugs and CP? I doubt if that's true. There are all types of people using Tor for reasons that are in keeping with the original goals of the Tor project. See
Hxxps://www.torproject.org/about/torusers.html.en
If we let censorship zealots redefine Tor as a network used only to facilitate criminal activity then that makes it much easier to shut down Tor. Tor administrators have made targeted efforts to help activists in China, Iran, and Syria, just to name a few countries with repressive regimes. If I had to guess, I'd say that drug traffic on Tor is but a small minority of overall traffic. Right now the biggest illegal use of Tor is probably for file sharing (such as pirated DVDs).
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... while it did point out (correctly) that Tor is mostly used for trading drugs and CP, it also made a point of explaining that this isn't what the software is for ...
Tor is mostly used for trading drugs and CP? I doubt if that's true. There are all types of people using Tor for reasons that are in keeping with the original goals of the Tor project. See
Hxxps://www.torproject.org/about/torusers.html.en
If we let censorship zealots redefine Tor as a network used only to facilitate criminal activity then that makes it much easier to shut down Tor. Tor administrators have made targeted efforts to help activists in China, Iran, and Syria, just to name a few countries with repressive regimes. If I had to guess, I'd say that drug traffic on Tor is but a small minority of overall traffic. Right now the biggest illegal use of Tor is probably for file sharing (such as pirated DVDs).
+1 I couldn't agree more! :)
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If i may, add my opinion on this sensitive subject.To me CP,the very act itself is,IMO,is just not right somehow.But bear in mind that this behaviour is not a new subject to society in general!During the 70s..there was a magazine or media company called "color climax corporation".It was the first to produce commercial child pornography films!That company produced 30 over or more 10-minute films for its so called "Lolita series".Those films featured young girls, mainly with men, but sometimes with women or other children.The girls were mainly aged 7–11, however some were younger.Now, Im in no way shape or form justifying for these acts!And in no fucking way am i freaking child lover!But there is a read on this kind of behaviour .wikileaks.info/wiki/An_insight_into_child_porn/index.html.
It is a sensitive issue! and I'm not saying there is already CP on the SR? I'm only saying its not a victimless crime! Is there really a debate here? These are not dead bodies! There active members of society that were exploited as children. Maybe I'm missing something here?
First of all CP is not an act or even a crime, it is information that is illegal to do things with. When you group CP related things together into one holy trinity of production possession and distribution (and all of their many forms) it makes it impossible to argue with you or even understand your position. It would be like if I said murder is always bad without expanding on it to say that okay maybe murder in self defense is not bad, etc. Concepts need to be expanded on to be properly and fully analyzed, when you crunch things together you increase your chances of coming to faulty conclusions and misunderstandings.
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... while it did point out (correctly) that Tor is mostly used for trading drugs and CP, it also made a point of explaining that this isn't what the software is for ...
Tor is mostly used for trading drugs and CP? I doubt if that's true. There are all types of people using Tor for reasons that are in keeping with the original goals of the Tor project. See
Hxxps://www.torproject.org/about/torusers.html.en
If we let censorship zealots redefine Tor as a network used only to facilitate criminal activity then that makes it much easier to shut down Tor. Tor administrators have made targeted efforts to help activists in China, Iran, and Syria, just to name a few countries with repressive regimes. If I had to guess, I'd say that drug traffic on Tor is but a small minority of overall traffic. Right now the biggest illegal use of Tor is probably for file sharing (such as pirated DVDs).
I seem to remember a research paper showing that the majority of Tor exit traffic consists of legal adult pornography. In several countries with large Tor userbases all porn is illegal, so it is not really a big surprise.
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OK then! i knew I stepped into to it several post back
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I see CP everytime I walk into the grocery store. Little girls painted up, and dressed up like whores.
I hear it's on the TV, now, too.
Yeah sounds like maybe its you with the issues, if you regard little girls as whores. Moron
So, it's not badorporn as long as no one is diddlin them? Are you fucking kidding me, moron?!? Someone tries to dress MY daughter up like that, take pictures, enter "pageants", wearing fucking makeup at 3 years old, and doing booty dances on the stage for points? Sorry, it's CP. It's nasty, and it's wrong. Little girls should NOT be subjected to that. It's not me who's fucked, it's the parents....remember Jon Bonet Ramsey???
I couldn't agree more! But your attacking and calling a little girl a whole? Its the parents with the mental problems not the little girls. I think were in general agreement its your wording is so harsh. I think all child exploitation is wrong! Let them grow up already! I personally feel that it harms SR to have CP, And maybe this is the wrong forum for this debate. And I'm glad I'm not your daughter! You still sound like a moron
LOL, did anyone take basic English is grade school? I NEVER called the little girls whores. I used a simile, and said they are dressed LIKE whores. Fucking learn to read, morons. Thank you.
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Anyhow, it is for the discussion. My point is that TOR isn't the only place children are being degraded. So, why do people focus on it? Why not call out MTV, or TLC?? Or tabloids and mags?
I guess because it's just easier to call someone a moron when they think differently than you do. Sorry, I choose not to be a clone, thanks for the faggoty negative karma because you simply disagree with me. Like I give a fuck about that stupid shit next to my name. DPR and you might, but to me it's just a digital fairytale.
Now, use your little brains to call me a moron, instead of trying to see from someone else's view.
Weak.
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I seem to remember a research paper showing that the majority of Tor exit traffic consists of legal adult pornography. In several countries with large Tor userbases all porn is illegal, so it is not really a big surprise.
Whaaat?! O.K., even though it's adult porn and not child porn I gotta see this research paper. Now I'm going to do some research of my own but I'd be so disappointed if this were true. I'm a big believer in the goodness of Tor, free speech, and the ability to keep Big Brother in the dark. Don't quite feel as passionately about porn, tho'
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Whaaat?! O.K., even though it's adult porn and not child porn I gotta see this research paper. Now I'm going to do some research of my own but I'd be so disappointed if this were true. I'm a big believer in the goodness of Tor, free speech, and the ability to keep Big Brother in the dark. Don't quite feel as passionately about porn, tho'
http://www.pimenidis.org/research/papers/nordsec09.pdf
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I seem to remember a research paper showing that the majority of Tor exit traffic consists of legal adult pornography. In several countries with large Tor userbases all porn is illegal, so it is not really a big surprise.
Whaaat?! O.K., even though it's adult porn and not child porn I gotta see this research paper. Now I'm going to do some research of my own but I'd be so disappointed if this were true. I'm a big believer in the goodness of Tor, free speech, and the ability to keep Big Brother in the dark. Don't quite feel as passionately about porn, tho'
Porn is free speech. Countries make porn illegal and censor access to it, people use Tor to get around the censorship and obtain porn. That is free speech, that is keeping big brother in the dark and that is combating censorship. Of course Tor is also used for tons of other things. People use Tor to get around websites with geographic locks that block people from certain countries. Journalists are more and more starting to suggest their sources contact them via Tor to ensure confidentiality. A substantial number of Tor users are merely libertarian minded people who want to protect their privacy, even if they have nothing in particular to hide. As previously mentioned, a lot of people use Tor to surf adult porn in places where it is blocked and/or illegal. Law enforcement and intelligence agencies use Tor for open source intelligence gathering and in undercover operations. A lot of people interested in technology dabble with Tor to various degrees.
hell I am pretty much just retyping this more comprehensive (and yet still partial) list of reasons why people use Tor:
https://www.torproject.org/about/torusers.html.en
If you consider yourself libertarian you should really use Tor for all of your non-sensitive (ie: bad if intercepted or prone to get you locked out if Tor exit is used) surfing, the more people who use Tor the better anonymity it offers to all of its users.
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Anyhow, it is for the discussion. My point is that TOR isn't the only place children are being degraded. So, why do people focus on it? Why not call out MTV, or TLC?? Or tabloids and mags?
I guess because it's just easier to call someone a moron when they think differently than you do. Sorry, I choose not to be a clone, thanks for the faggoty negative karma because you simply disagree with me. Like I give a fuck about that stupid shit next to my name. DPR and you might, but to me it's just a digital fairytale.
Now, use your little brains to call me a moron, instead of trying to see from someone else's view.
Weak.
My apologies to SuperDimitri:( I didn't see his smiley face and thought he was serious.....My bad hes not a moron! I am:( sorry again you seem like a very nice person! If i could take back the negative review and give him my one positive one i would ......Peace and i mean it!