Silk Road forums
Market => Rumor mill => Topic started by: nomad bloodbath on July 06, 2011, 12:11 pm
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I've taken it upon myself to start weeding through the vendors on SilkRoad that think they can work out side of escrow yet use SilkRoad to sell/scam their wares.
I've already reported vortexmilkman and have my eye on a couple of others.
I'm hoping with this thread I can get some of you SilkRoad users to help catch these vendors working outside of SilkRoad protocol.
You can list the vendors name, profile link and your opinion of any wrong doing you think they might be doing here. I'll send weekly reports to SR himself and link him to this thread.
If we work together on this we can fix it alot faster.
LIST
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vortexmilkman
BarrySneaky
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aromatics. This makes me sad because I really want some of that god damn Fentanyl. :)
He seems like a nice guy but would "rather not have the transaction go through silk road and pay him directly"
http://ianxz6zefk72ulzz.onion/index.php/silkroad/user/2111
Again, I really like this dude and it upsets me.
We've spoken but I am falling back a little on a decision to order, because of his apprehension to use our Market.
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I feel the same way btcfreedom, I really like aromatic and he was never let me down, great guy.
Sadly you are correct he does work outside of the escrow, the listing he has on SilkRoad is at the appropriate pricing. Is it possible that he does do the occasion listing through escrow or does he info in an encrypted message that he only excepts other payment?
The listing:
http://ianxz6zefk72ulzz.onion/index.php/silkroad/item/3907
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nomad, just sent you a PM. He DOES use a PGP key though....
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Well, if nomad wants to do that, I'm sure he can. However if we're to work together, this is the structure we're going to have to deal with for now.
I understand it's a pain but we have to weed out the badness and it can get messy. I'm sure we will eventually have a good list in place, in one place :)
~btcf~
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Please update the original post user list as new names get added for those who do not want to read through what may become endless pages of escrow circumventors.
That was the plan isiredsamai. :D
Also i've added aromatics but have for the time being added an asterisk because i think he will work in escrow if asked, not sure though if he should be allowed to do.
What does the users think?
Majority rules.
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I thought aromatics was legit. does he only work outside the escrow system? as a buyer, Ill be miffed as well if he is a scammer..
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He is 100% not a scammer.
i think he just has a personal issue with escrow and his source for the Fentanyl.
I'm not sure the real for sure, many ppl including myself have ordered and gotten product from him with 100% satisfaction.
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Ok, I misread the post. I feel stupid, lol. You are just getting a list of vendors that don't work thru the escrow system and keeping an eye... Duh!...
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Nomad, I feel aromatics should be given the exception, but as monkey sees monkey does. We may suffer a repercussion from vendors who have gear like his, and want the same option to sell out
of escrow. I also think he deserves the exception for being such a nice guy, and risking selling / sending such a DANGEROUS+DELICIOUS treat to us. ;)
He's doing it to protect his own ass....he's legit, and has a PGP key. However I have to question why any vendor doesn't trust SRM? We're all here for each other.
I would rather sell through the market any time. Only thing I'd consider is trading with a trusted vendor i've done multiple transactions with.
This is a tough call for aromatics. Sigh. :-\ He will offer you a transaction within escrow I'm sure. Very accommodating.
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I'm not going to lie I work outside of escrow (one transaction so far, receiver said they got it) when asked. The crazy BTC fluxuations almost make it easier to work outside of escrow for really big amounts (say $500+ items) where if BTC loses a dollar or two you could be out a hundred or two hundred dollars. But I also have a safeorscam entry with other customers outside of silk road that I work with frequently.
But yeah, going outside of escrow is completely at your own risk and you need to be able to trust the seller to even think about doing that.
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I've talked with aromatics and he assures me that him working outside of the escrow was from a past experience when he had 1000$ worth of btc locked up in escrow.
As his listing in the opioid section of the market on Silk Road suggests he is selling within the escrow and prefers the security of it now.
So he is not on the list, if anyone has a problem with this contact me please. :D
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I have a note listed on my listings for things with a value of over $500 I prefer not to use escrow, which would be my >= 2 ounce listings. I accept escrow for <= 1 ounce, but I just don't feel comfortable having all that money sitting around and worrying about the volatility of bitcoins.
Should I remove my listings that I do not want to use escrow with?
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@MindBlown, I did see this note, good man to have done this. This is your gear and your safety - although customer satisfaction is foremost - safety sits right next to it. I have no qualms with this and would buy from you should my transaction exceed 500.00. I can feasibly understand being on your end.
@nomad, this is difficult right? do you think that the out of escrow transactions might benefit from being capped at $500.00? MB has a very, very valid point. So does aromatics with 1k
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MiND.BLOWN, I have no issue with that type of situation, unless SR contacts me and says otherwise. :D
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@ isiredsami speak for yourself.
- nomad is our mod, we are in the process of discussing this with SRM admins, so please, don't crush the thread.
if you read carefully we are pro-escrow but are in the process of discussing the ethics of having 500-1000$ locked up in escrow. Until this happens to you, please don't try to rationalize.
i respect your solid views on the out-of-escrow issue. but please read the exceptions we are bringing up - carefully.
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I'm confused nomad.
Are sellers not allowed to go outside of escrow?
I never would anyway, but I was under the impression it was allowed.
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I'm confused nomad.
Are sellers not allowed to go outside of escrow?
I never would anyway, but I was under the impression it was allowed.
Sellers should use escrow at all times however for large transactions to existing clients some sellers have bypassed escrow. It's a fine line between strictly enforcing rules and pissing off established sellers or being lenient as sellers are here to make money.
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aromatics can be removed from this list completely. i contacted him and he put a custom listing up for me and others who've been interested.... GOOD VENDOR.
@nomad check his listings now :)
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@b0ng...don't list items that lead to outside of escrow on the SR menu. :D
@Mind.BLOWN...honestly after a good nights sleep I do think you should remove any product listing you plan on using outside of escrow. So remove any listings that lead to escrow.
@isiredsami... I agree with you 100% but these are hard waters to navigate, suggestions rather than sarcasm is much more helpful in this situation.
I'd prefer not to have to be a lone soldier searching out and demonizing these vendors, but it be more of a community effort to keep everyone safe. I myself am busy all day long as a volunteer, trying to make this community as safe as possible and be as helpful as possible. I can't do it alone.
Any listing on the SR menu that leads to outside of escrow payment or other forms of currency used should not be allowed on the SR menu. This is for the safety of everyone.
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btcfreedom I talked to aromatics yesterday and removed him because he was working within SR escrow and has been for a couple weeks, since he started revending onsite.
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Id say its the buyers choice. If the vendor wants certain transactions outside of escrow and the buyer knows the risks and accepts then thats 100% fine with me. We should ban scammers, not people who go outside escrow and deliver good product!
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Id say its the buyers choice. If the vendor wants certain transactions outside of escrow and the buyer knows the risks and accepts then thats 100% fine with me. We should ban scammers, not people who go outside escrow and deliver good product!
That's fine Mitanox but those items cannot be listed on the SR Menu.
It leads to too many ,"What if", scenarios.
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You are right nomad as I get asked if I can do higher amounts than what I have listed (well not listed currently, gotta wait for some confirmations and escrow releases before I can post more warez) and for those high dollar amounts I have to go outside of escrow just because BTC is such a finnicky beast with respect to it's current value (Which I think just jumped up $.30 as I typed this sentence).
I mean would it be a no-no to put my safeorscam profile in my current profile along with my PGP key to show that I do legit business outside of SR as well? I obviously won't be giving out any accounts to that website but I think it's a good website to know and keep up with scammers (Like you should see goldismoney's SOS, it's pretty lol worthy). Again, I know that trust can only be built by actions, but I'd like to know if it's a no-no to link to my actions outside of here to prove that I am what I say I am?
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i'm divided on the escrow system. i made a international purchase from a very reputable seller out of escrow as he felt sending international should be my risk. i had no problem doing so for someone very reputable who would normally not send to me. on the other side i would never go outside of escrow for a reg seller. so i just dont know, i think maybe sr should have a option to go outside of escrow built in so they still get the cut. a warning should pop up when you attempt it. this way sr still gets the 5%, buyer is warned heavily, and feedback can still be left. sr added a send funds option in the account section which i assumed was heading the way i mentioned. i think most can agree under certain circumstances going outside of escrow is ok. i feel like you cant stop outside of escrow deals, so really warning people about the risks and making sure feedback is still involved would minimize the problem.
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You are right nomad as I get asked if I can do higher amounts than what I have listed (well not listed currently, gotta wait for some confirmations and escrow releases before I can post more warez) and for those high dollar amounts I have to go outside of escrow just because BTC is such a finnicky beast with respect to it's current value (Which I think just jumped up $.30 as I typed this sentence).
I mean would it be a no-no to put my safeorscam profile in my current profile along with my PGP key to show that I do legit business outside of SR as well? I obviously won't be giving out any accounts to that website but I think it's a good website to know and keep up with scammers (Like you should see goldismoney's SOS, it's pretty lol worthy). Again, I know that trust can only be built by actions, but I'd like to know if it's a no-no to link to my actions outside of here to prove that I am what I say I am?
Hell yes. Anything that sets you apart from scammers is more than welcome as long as you don't show something that may identify you.
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Anybody on safeorscam have a referral link they can PM me? I've been dying to get on there myself because I am getting some regular customers and I could cut them some discounts if they can pay direct for product (also multi-oz and up domestic shipping).
Would be brilliant :)
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Either that or if someone isnt' comfortable getting me a referral code is there anyway I can get listed on there by someone who is registered?
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so, this is not so much a thread that lists people who work outside of the escrow system as much as its a thread to list those who can convince the staff not to list them when they visibly do not.
of course, with ample justification.
got it.
a totally meaningless thread no one can trust.
although I can understand the need to solidify your relationships with suppliers you may need to use in the future regardless of their selective use of the escrow system, its counterproductive and misleading for those of us who want a nuts and bolts list of people to avoid.
you either work within the escrow system 100% of the time or you do not.
not only selectively and when its advantageous to do so.
I don't agree that the distinction is as how you put it or that this thread is meaningless, but I also think we should include people like b0ng and MiND.BLOWN on there because some consumers care about that. Bbut we should include how they go outside of escrow, as in only for large amounts or something along those lines. That way consumers who think the distinctions are important between how one goes outside of escrow can have information on the specifics in one location. I feel like most sellers and buyers would be happy with this. An accurate and all-inclusive list, without vilifying anyone.
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From a vendor's point of view, escrow is an absolutely horrible way of doing business. Not only does it breed distrust, but it has cost many vendors thousands of dollars, myself included. Honestly, the escrow is the major reason I quit vending. I understand protecting customers from scammers but there needs to be a trust system for established vendors that they can set the option to bypass escrow, and if the customer does not feel comfortable with it then they need not order from that vendor. I would not be surprised to see many vendors quit in the future due to the fact that escrow is bullshit. When this site was designed bitcoin was stable and the community was small. We did not have to deal with things such as 'buyer fraud' or bitcoins plummeting in the span of hours, or hell even minutes. Escrow was fine back then. Then there has been the couple times that SR went down unexpectedly. I had thousands tied up in escrow with no way of knowing if it was lost. I can see all your buyers point of views but everyone really needs to take a look at this from both sides and see the drawbacks. I have lost thousands on SR that I would not have lost had I been selling on the street, or on OVDB. Sorry folks the system is flawed.
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Well: I think we do need escrow. All sellers aren't like you, and for some, it's still the main motivation to make things right...we buyers too have lost plenty, and also not knowing sometimes, where a package is, is just as nervewracking...this site has it's rep because of escrow...
What I"ve been asking for--and I'm a buyer, you know that ;) --is another button, to *lift* escrow for reputable sellers you have a relationship with. I don't expect SR will change it's whole policy just because of honest sellers: I think the escrow system is why only honest sellers thrive here.
But I don't read lately of bad sellers: mostly what I read is just the time and aggravation of the falling price of btc. And all failures--like what happened to you--aren't the fault of bad buyers...not all at once like that, as you've readily admitted...we did what I think we should have done: we started a thread on it, and you replied to us, and we were correctly reimbursed, as it didn't happen on our end...and all of us--at least all that talked about it--said what a standup guy you've been about the whole thing...it sucked for you, but both sides have risks.
It may seem like a small deal, but you gained a damned good reputation for making everything right.
I'd be happy to lift escrow for you, and for a couple of other sellers I'm thinking of, and then when shit goes missing, we just iron it out between us, trusting to good will on both sides. But again, if we lift escrow altogether, then if shit goes missing, buyers don't have a leg to stand on.
Again: I like the system as it is, in general, and it seems plenty of buyers and sellers both are alright with it...but I'd like to see two things: 1) Where buyers can lift the escrow system for sellers they trust. Keeping feedback would be nice, open a couple weeks, but escrow keeps the system honest.
<and/or>
2) Sellers with a certain amount of points/reputation, like you, could post 'no escrow' and buyers would have the choice of not buying, or buying with no escrow. LIke OVDB. But again: this is asking SR to change what their whole reputation is based upon. Some of the sellers wanting no escrow without having proved their credibility though, I think is a non-starter.
See, I see SR's strength as being *non* trusting, and I like that: it is set up to where buyers *can't* rat out their sellers, which is what LE always wants. And it's set up where sellers *can't* burn their buyers. And no matter how smooth a talker we are, we can't fuck with the system.
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@phubaiblues- I agree. I still think my earlier idea of listing everyone in this thread who doesn't escrow is important just because I feel consumer awareness as important. i would love if SR had an option for immediate transfer though since there seems to be a demand from high volume buyers and sellers for it. If you trust your source, you should be able to make that decision.
@envious- Some sellers like it; I see no reason why SR can't have both. I have, however, noticed that sellers who go outside of escrow often have cheaper prices. Mitanox even admitted to upping by 30% v. street prices because of escrow (i don't blame him - his prices are still fair). I guess its a classic risk v. reward situation and some buyers are willing to go for it, so I'm all for it as an option, just not the only option..
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I only did not use the escrow system with moveitnice because this was my first time here and I was not certain to the process. He said he normally does not do that and was actually helping me figure it out. He is on the up and up and a great seller, so I take responsibility for buying outside of escrow. I will be directing more of my friends to this site because of this vendor!
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Well there is a way now to send btc straight to seller. Good enough for me. I figure, a couple of good transactions, and then that's fair. But no crying to SR if the deal goes bad...as they sometimes do. I can start a thread if seller doesn't deliver, but if I willingly bypass escrow, then I also accept the fact I can be SOL if seller does'nt deliver. Bummer is no feedback, tho: that would be nice still...
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I think escrow is needed and should be mandatory. By mandatory I mean that any sellers suggesting going outside of the escrow system should at a minimum have their listings deleted. Without consumer protection we have no real consistent internet marketplace in my opinion. Bottom line as a seller is that it is my responsibility to ensure that my shipments get to the buyer. If a buyer does not get the package, its my responsibility as a seller no matter if it was intercepted, stolen, or lost.
You detracting sellers have absolutely no idea if a buyer is scamming or not. Sure the possibility exists but that is irrelevant, because all you are doing is guessing, using supposition and conjecture to justify your costs of doing business, and make no mistake about it, loss is indeed a part of the cost of doing business. Where's the proof any buyer is scamming you ?? Hey I know that I got buyers who may have scammed when they said a product was intercepted or never delivered, but they are but a minute fraction of the legitimate buyers we get profits from. Most people just want a relatively safe and secure way to stock up without exposing themselves. I would MUCH rather make a little less profit once in a while because of the rare scammer than peddle on the streets opening myself up to physical risks to my health, finances, and freedom.
If your profit margins do not exponentially cover your losses, then you need to adjust your business strategy. For instance, buy in higher bulk quantities at lower per unit pricing or network with others to combine purchasing power if you do not have the money for bulk. This facilitates higher profits for 2 reasons ... more sales volume and higher per unit profit.
A seller with a great supply line, giving great communication, value, quality product, and consistency will always profit in this atmosphere regardless of loss. If you don't, then the problem is not with the SR system or the buyer ... the problem is with the seller being unable to compete.
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Well there is a way now to send btc straight to seller. Good enough for me. I figure, a couple of good transactions, and then that's fair. But no crying to SR if the deal goes bad...as they sometimes do. I can start a thread if seller doesn't deliver, but if I willingly bypass escrow, then I also accept the fact I can be SOL if seller does'nt deliver. Bummer is no feedback, tho: that would be nice still...
That was fast! Agreed though, feedback would still be nice. It looks like the SR admins are reading this thread and taking note, so maybe if enough people ask, it'll happen soon.
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I think escrow is needed and should be mandatory. By mandatory I mean that any sellers suggesting going outside of the escrow system should at a minimum have their listings deleted. Without consumer protection we have no real consistent internet marketplace in my opinion. Bottom line as a seller is that it is my responsibility to ensure that my shipments get to the buyer. If a buyer does not get the package, its my responsibility as a seller no matter if it was intercepted, stolen, or lost.
You detracting sellers have absolutely no idea if a buyer is scamming or not. Sure the possibility exists but that is irrelevant, because all you are doing is guessing, using supposition and conjecture to justify your costs of doing business, and make no mistake about it, loss is indeed a part of the cost of doing business. Where's the proof any buyer is scamming you ?? Hey I know that I got buyers who may have scammed when they said a product was intercepted or never delivered, but they are but a minute fraction of the legitimate buyers we get profits from. Most people just want a relatively safe and secure way to stock up without exposing themselves. I would MUCH rather make a little less profit once in a while because of the rare scammer than peddle on the streets opening myself up to physical risks to my health, finances, and freedom.
If your profit margins do not exponentially cover your losses, then you need to adjust your business strategy. For instance, buy in higher bulk quantities at lower per unit pricing or network with others to combine purchasing power if you do not have the money for bulk. This facilitates higher profits for 2 reasons ... more sales volume and higher per unit profit.
A seller with a great supply line, giving great communication, value, quality product, and consistency will always profit in this atmosphere regardless of loss. If you don't, then the problem is not with the SR system or the buyer ... the problem is with the seller being unable to compete.
Any big time vendor that's the real deal (ie, the actual supplier of the hoffmans/shivas/red star microdots) ain't going to give you escrow services, they'll tell you to pound sand. Almost all vendors outside of silk road work like this.
If Silk Road also used pecunix and still had escrow I'd have all kinds of listings up here all the time, but the fact is any listing that I have up that's worth more than a few hundred bucks of product could significantly reduce in profit from the time it is purchased until the time I can cash the money out due to whats going on with bitcoin. I'm not doing this shit for free, and I'm not doing it to get people high on my own dime.
I'll still list stuff on here, but more than likely it'll just be ounces since the dollars and cents gained or lost due to the fluctuation of bitcoin is nothing compared to if I were putting up listings for entire pounds. Like I said before though, there are other places where you can cross reference vendors and find out if you would feel secure doing business with them like most of their customers do (IE, you pay, they verify payment then ship your product). Not every single person working outside of escrow is a scam artist, and most of them tend to get called out very quickly.
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I think escrow is needed and should be mandatory. By mandatory I mean that any sellers suggesting going outside of the escrow system should at a minimum have their listings deleted. Without consumer protection we have no real consistent internet marketplace in my opinion. Bottom line as a seller is that it is my responsibility to ensure that my shipments get to the buyer. If a buyer does not get the package, its my responsibility as a seller no matter if it was intercepted, stolen, or lost.
You detracting sellers have absolutely no idea if a buyer is scamming or not. Sure the possibility exists but that is irrelevant, because all you are doing is guessing, using supposition and conjecture to justify your costs of doing business, and make no mistake about it, loss is indeed a part of the cost of doing business. Where's the proof any buyer is scamming you ?? Hey I know that I got buyers who may have scammed when they said a product was intercepted or never delivered, but they are but a minute fraction of the legitimate buyers we get profits from. Most people just want a relatively safe and secure way to stock up without exposing themselves. I would MUCH rather make a little less profit once in a while because of the rare scammer than peddle on the streets opening myself up to physical risks to my health, finances, and freedom.
If your profit margins do not exponentially cover your losses, then you need to adjust your business strategy. For instance, buy in higher bulk quantities at lower per unit pricing or network with others to combine purchasing power if you do not have the money for bulk. This facilitates higher profits for 2 reasons ... more sales volume and higher per unit profit.
A seller with a great supply line, giving great communication, value, quality product, and consistency will always profit in this atmosphere regardless of loss. If you don't, then the problem is not with the SR system or the buyer ... the problem is with the seller being unable to compete.
Any big time vendor that's the real deal (ie, the actual supplier of the hoffmans/shivas/red star microdots) ain't going to give you escrow services, they'll tell you to pound sand. Almost all vendors outside of silk road work like this.
If Silk Road also used pecunix and still had escrow I'd have all kinds of listings up here all the time, but the fact is any listing that I have up that's worth more than a few hundred bucks of product could significantly reduce in profit from the time it is purchased until the time I can cash the money out due to whats going on with bitcoin. I'm not doing this shit for free, and I'm not doing it to get people high on my own dime.
I'll still list stuff on here, but more than likely it'll just be ounces since the dollars and cents gained or lost due to the fluctuation of bitcoin is nothing compared to if I were putting up listings for entire pounds. Like I said before though, there are other places where you can cross reference vendors and find out if you would feel secure doing business with them like most of their customers do (IE, you pay, they verify payment then ship your product). Not every single person working outside of escrow is a scam artist, and most of them tend to get called out very quickly.
I agree. That's why I think we should have a central list with explanations; not to demonize, but to allow people easy access to a list they can plug into SoS or something. A side market.
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The whole idea of this site is voluntary trade. SR provides a medium of exchange whereby buyers and sellers have the right to use the services (but not the obligation).
I think a lot of SR_Seller_Accounts post is just arrogance - it's hard to anticipate a massive crash in BTC or a bad wave of scam buyers. Perhaps if you are doing hundreds of transactions a week you can keep the percentage at a minimum, weed out the bad customers (post the scammers in the forum always, including their if anything unusual), and keep a good core of regulars.
But if you have a good core of regulars and both seller and buyer completely agree, there is no reason a seller shouldn't be able to offer a discount for price stability and time premium (rather than having float tied up in escrow for 2 or 3 weeks) for a direct-buy order.
It's great that SR added the direct-to-seller option. Either way everyone has a choice now. Buyers need to post and make a big noise when sellers use the direct-buy to scam, which will automatically deter sellers from even attempting it in the first place. There are built in checks and balances to having a completely open community and voluntary structure, arguably more effective than some sort of verification or vouching process. Trust has to be earned, not thumbs-upped by a third party with a rep.
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I agree: right now seems pretty good...and I"m not seeing many *ripoff* posts, and just same as always: late arrivals, but that's not new, and usually is just antsy buyers...
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From a vendor's point of view, escrow is an absolutely horrible way of doing business. Not only does it breed distrust, but it has cost many vendors thousands of dollars, myself included. Honestly, the escrow is the major reason I quit vending. I understand protecting customers from scammers but there needs to be a trust system for established vendors that they can set the option to bypass escrow, and if the customer does not feel comfortable with it then they need not order from that vendor. I would not be surprised to see many vendors quit in the future due to the fact that escrow is bullshit. When this site was designed bitcoin was stable and the community was small. We did not have to deal with things such as 'buyer fraud' or bitcoins plummeting in the span of hours, or hell even minutes. Escrow was fine back then. Then there has been the couple times that SR went down unexpectedly. I had thousands tied up in escrow with no way of knowing if it was lost. I can see all your buyers point of views but everyone really needs to take a look at this from both sides and see the drawbacks. I have lost thousands on SR that I would not have lost had I been selling on the street, or on OVDB. Sorry folks the system is flawed.
Envious, thank you for posting this. There have been quite a few queries from people asking why you quit selling. Reading the drivel that new buyers and sellers have been making the past few weeks has been a huge test in patience. As an older established seller I respect your opinion even if I don't entirely agree with it.
Honestly I'm surprised that some people have only just come to the realization that escrow does not fit for every purchase. If I am trying out a new vendor I use the escrow service same goes with a new buyer. In your opinion you say it breeds distrust, my opinion differs as I see it as a way of establishing a rapport with a new person. The thing is if I have bought a few grams or 8-balls off the one seller and they have always come through, my larger transactions won't even hit the SR site.
Just look at the street trade, do you go around shopping at different dealers trying to get the best deal or do you generally stick to the one or two guys. The same happens here. This site will only ever be an introduction agency and marketing arena as if you have established trust between two parties, the site becomes redundant. This is also why the site will never be successfully shut down. No vendor is trying to move massive bulk quantities at once, which is what the authorities are after.
As I said Envious, I respect you and your decision 100% and I feel for you over the bullshit that you went through, but I do feel the escrow system although not perfect for every situation does have an important role to play in this marketplace.
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I am a real vendor that works outside silk road. I am offering my services now with alternative payment options. I decided to do this because I had problems getting my bitcoins from SR and I know how to use the other digital or physical $$ transfer services. My rep is 100% with good feed back.
where would the preferable place be for me to list those services here?