Silk Road forums

Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: Dread Pirate Roberts on August 31, 2013, 01:08 am

Title: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: Dread Pirate Roberts on August 31, 2013, 01:08 am
The latest:

Buyers may remove a rating and/or a review from the "recent orders" link on their account pages

the price of the transaction has been obscured in the same way that buyer stats are when the review is displayed

the style has been slimmed down further

buyer weight now has the same freshness factor included in the rating and vendor weights (old transactions don't count as much toward a buyer's weight)

review sorting (freshness or weight) has been added to the item and user pages in addition to the ratings and reviews page.

Might have already said this, but freshness has been the default sort since monday.

I think this covers most of the problems that have been brought up during this phase of the overhaul.  I haven't had much time to read all of the chatter around this the past couple of days, but I'll try to keep up with this thread.

Thanks everyone for your patience this week.  Once again I am sorry for how rough this transition has been.  I didn't foresee all of the problems that came up, but I hope that the process has been relatively painless for most of you.  I think we've learned much from this experience so far and will be able to handle any changes that we need to go through in the future with ease and a light heart.  And thanks again everyone for your input!
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: plainsman1963 on August 31, 2013, 02:07 am
Thank you DPR. I personally like the direction ratings/feedback are going and these last changes improve them even more.

Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: CaliforniaCannibas on August 31, 2013, 03:22 am
I would like to see all feedback that is 4 months old or older.....not on the first page......
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: pspring188 on August 31, 2013, 03:36 am
definitely moving in the right direction. thanks for giving the people what they want!
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: farmer1 on August 31, 2013, 03:38 am
Awesome DPR!  :)
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: TSCrew on August 31, 2013, 04:38 am
Thank you for the commitment and update.
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: Cimicon-Rep on August 31, 2013, 05:00 am
It's all looking good.

I noticed that vendors have lost the "view feedback link." Nice to have even though "recent orders" link shows score left. So it's still accessible information. Would like to see the view feedback link again so we can see what buyers have commented on.... in 1 easy to use page. Just a time saver. Not a deal breaker or anything since a vendor can just click on their own profile and see. So no worries about it. If you want to add it back, cool. If not, that's OK too.

Like how the feedback slot height has been shortened so more feedback can be seen on the profile page.

Permanent feedback, great. *Applause*
Ability of a buyer to delete feedback, also great. *cheers and "whooop-whoooop."

Now SR is more in line with normal e-commerce sites.


Vendor tools up next? 

We don't need too many. But one that would be nice is the ability to sort out multiple listings to our liking. Not sure how that would be achieved. Maybe using numbered boxes next to listings with the ability to change the number which in turn changes the order?

And maybe check boxes to take multiple listings into stealth mode?

Anyway looking good boss. Looking good.

Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: NorCalKing on August 31, 2013, 06:03 am
DPR, even though we have probably been one of the most vocal DPR, even though we have probably been one of the most vocal in these changes as far as top tiered vendors, we do applaud your efforts to try to make this a better system & then site as a result of the changes.  Everyone has their perspectives which they understand more than likely better than you, since it is their reality, & they bring to the front many of the glaring deficiencies that you might not have seen so clearly, & we appreciate the way you have quietly kept making some of these important changes.

We also understand that for us, many of the changes put in place were to help with a completely different set of problems that some of us even face, & when we see how by employing some of these new practices it negatively impacts us, we are quick to show our displeasure!

So while we are on the subject of making subtle tweaks to the system;

1)  On the vendor's page for feedback there needs to have some options & changes in the feedback realm. 
First of all, there needs to be the option of the same feedback system that was previously employed where all the good & bad feedback was  chronologically listed which gives customers a very good snapshot of what is going on.

2)  Maintain the listed %# right after each vendor"s name (100)  as it also give 10 times a better snapshot view of a vendor's "health"

3)  If a vendor has for instance, 6  4/5 ratings, do not list more than sixth 4/5 on the 2nd page, or any other page as it is grossly misleading.  So if there were 11 3/5's, by the 3rd page of someone looking at the 5/5's the only see the 11th 3/5 on that page as well as it is very misleading & makes a bigger vendor look like shit because simply by sheer volume they will have a larger amount of less than happy feedbacks than most vendors, even though they may have a much smaller percentage of negative feedback.

4)  The feedback should be much more explicitly defined, & then it should be broken down to 10ths as well, as in 4.8/5 and then it can work with the vendor's total #that shows after their name.

5)  Feedback should be able to be changed up to around  6 - 8 weeks later.  However, it can only be the last feedback for a vendor if there are multiple feedbacks, AND, they can only be erased or the # be upgraded (say from a 2.5/5  to a 4.4/5   since the vendor would be trying to do what they could to increase and decrease the feedback # left!

There are a few other tweaks that escape me at the moment, but this would tend to be some of the better tweaks I've seen bandied about in the forums


NCK
Title: Removing feedback ! :)
Post by: maligan on August 31, 2013, 06:28 am
If buyer can remove a recent rating without no trace at all in anywhere .....than I can sleep much better from now on-..

Thank you !
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: Northwest Nuggets on August 31, 2013, 06:45 am
Thanks for all your work DPR!  I think once people get used to it the weighted feedback option will make it easier for buyers to tell if a vendor is selectively scamming.
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: NW Nugz on August 31, 2013, 07:52 am
I appreciate the effort and changes made so far. I agree with a lot of what NCK said above. I realize you are probably trying to protect us from ourselves with some of the policies. I think these 2 issues are crucial though:

1)The extremely "coarse" 5/5 scale is still making me wonder if selling is smart now. If it will get fixed later, it is best to avoid getting damaged by a 4/5 before you fix it. I think NCK above suggests a 50/50 scale (5.0/5.0). I like that, but, if go that far might as well make it 100/100.

2)Vendor page deceptive transaction reporting continues. Because I have only had 2 buyers leave written feedback, the appearance on my vendor page is that I have only had 2 sales finalized in the last 9 days. It suprises me you don't seem to realize how bad that is for sales. I would also like to be able to easily see my recent transactions and the feedback with them.
Maybe buyers can see their own feedback by clicking "Account" and then "Recent orders". That does not work for vendors anymore. You seem to have stripped out the feedback and damaged the usefulness of that page. So, please make it easy for buyers and vendors to see this crucial recent information. If not the default on my vendor page, how about a button we can push at the top of the "Featured Transactions" you are currently displaying.
Thanks for trying to consider everyones feedback as quickly as you can/have been.
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: convergedlight on August 31, 2013, 08:33 am
This looks like some great progress, although I'd still really like to see the review aliases done away with so a user's reviews can't be tracked between vendor feedback pages.  DPR seemed open to fixing this when I mentioned it in the other thread (having the site create some kind of user-specific identifier specific to each vendor), so I assume he just hasn't gotten to it yet.

Also, more on topic now, I looked under 'account' and then 'recent orders' (incidently the page it brings up says recent purchases rather than recent orders) and I couldn't locate the option described by DPR to delete (as a buyer) ratings or reviews.  Am I missing something obvious or is this feature not enabled right now?
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: PinnacleGoods on August 31, 2013, 09:29 am
There needs to be a way to change feedback IFF vendors are going to be permitted to require FE

Couldn't find how to delete feedback either.  Reckon it's something along the lines of:

DELETE from feedback_left where vendor='TheirUsername" and feedback_id='ZZYZX';
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: Jack N Hoff on August 31, 2013, 09:42 am
There needs to be a way to change feedback IFF vendors are going to be permitted to require FE

You don't have to leave a score or review.  You may wait until you receive and/or test the product...
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: PinnacleGoods on August 31, 2013, 09:51 am
But people do leave scores and reviews without finalizing, and they don't want to just totally nuke them.

It's a big change that seems odd in many ways.  One big way is why should cancelled transactions count for anything at all or get to leave feedback or reviews?
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: brainfreeze on August 31, 2013, 10:15 am
DRP im sorry to say i hate the new feedback system, with the old one all i had to do is look at the feedback to see who has FE'ed. Now im finding i cant keep track of who has paid and who has left a comment.
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: astor on August 31, 2013, 06:41 pm
Looks like things are coming together. :)
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: Kiwikiikii on August 31, 2013, 06:53 pm
Quote
Buyers may remove a rating and/or a review from the "recent orders" link on their account pages

what does this mean? that the buyers can now remove a rating they left as a form of resolution or that they can hide feedback left on their account page so it doesnt get cluttered?


I like the new look, if dpr does the buyer+seller hashtag thing we'll finally have meaningful information to go on. The description of the stars needs some work though and the vendor control panel is still lacking.
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: RxKing on August 31, 2013, 09:38 pm
DPR....EVERYONE on this site respects you and your choices...as we all know ....you only care about making this place the best it can be for EVERYONE.

But please read your opening post..... how could you not believe that the post will totally confuse even the most seasoned SR user...let alone a new person...and truth is...the older a member you are on here ...the less this stuff matters ....as you have your vendor picked out all ready....but God help you if you want someone new!

You have taken something that totally worked from day 1.....the 100 score....and made that a 5/5 and that REALLY makes bad vendors not look so bad..as even 4.2 out of 5 looks fine....but a 94 out of a 100 would make any buyer look closer....the only problem was the fact that feedback could be edited  2 years later!!!!And that was the only real flaw with that system....

 Was it perfect NO...but there was a LOT LESS scamming going on because of that system if any at all... The scamming that was going on ....and I think this was almost non existent.... was the ability to make a listing  that was free!....... and then buy that listing with a buyer account you could take 2 min to set up and then pad ones feedback with fake feedback....then change the price to $30 a piece or whatever and try to sell it but the fact is the shitty vendors that did that....had to change the item to like $2,000 and EVERYONE could tell it was phoney feedback and no had had bought that item before...and again that was the only flaw and that could have been fixed....but that never really happened.... and when it did it was easily spotted... ...but any legit vendor would never even think of doing that...as you could lose your vendor account for doing something so petty...and any buyer that brought that up as a potential scam opportunity ....was just totally unaware of the system and how things worked around here. As "fake feedback" was not ever a real problem in the big picture.....and as ALL OF US HAVE ALWAYS SAID...just do not FE...and you WILL NEVER be a victim!!


It was actually really bad for the vendor because of the edit option. And in the past 1.5 years that I have been here....I have seen every single vendor ask about the edit option...and it was never ever addressed...and now this whole thing where you can edit but not but the last one only but not if it is weighted...is NUTS!!!


As you personally know .... the biggest scam is old school vendors using the FE option....though you guys did a great job of catching those ASAP the last 6 months+ ....the reality is even the worse ones.... such as Tony76 had NOTHING to do with the feedback system...and in fact... though those totally sucked...they were a very small %  and the good that came out of it is more people were aware and watching out for them....but again...these had NOTHING to do with the feedback system that was in place.NOTHING!!!


 And if you took a pole...I would bet 90% of seasoned buyers would tell you that the feedback system was great. And 95% of vendors would tell you it only sucked because of the blackmail oppertunities that could have been fixed if you just changed the edit option.



But this new system...and even your opening post(that I totally understood) are totally over the top way to much information and way to difficult for the average user to understand.....I mean it is so much shit that so does not matter and NO ONE could understand it that you HAVE TO take a look at what you have done and PLEASE admit it was a mistake and go back!!! I am all for progression and change....but you have done something that is not good for anyone going forward....and the brand new person that has never known how the old system was....would tell you this new one is totally confusing and gives info that is totally not useful.


Please think about it...and at least run a pole on the main site..so you do not get the "High On's" that do not buy anything taking it...and you will see the vast majority hate this new system.

And I do not think someone could make an argument for how this new system is "better" for the buyers in any way shape or form. If they can and they are reading this...please try...I would love to be wrong.

Title: :)
Post by: maligan on August 31, 2013, 09:40 pm
Well ....

To be honest I have no idea about the whole new concept :) Way to complicated ( for me ) and ain't got a clue why was it created .....
I guess I am old fashioned  or just simple minded :)

Never mind........ I can only hope that I still be able to control ratings............

All I care about is 100 % client satisfaction = 5/5 all the way !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess I am not the only one .......

Cheers

PS

Really curious what % of SR users would vote for.... The old system with a small change (recent feedback can be changed) or the new one ?

Faites  vous jeux madame et monsieur.......:)

Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: SpaceAce on August 31, 2013, 10:05 pm
I have a couple orders that have finalized  but no reviews. One person left a 5 out of 5 but no review shows up or 5 out of 5 on my page. I'm thinking this new layout might reduce the number of reviews untill people read and figure out what to do. not that complicated but some people on here are very lazy. too lazy to even encrypt there address lol...
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: Hungry ghost on August 31, 2013, 10:43 pm
I'm bringing this up again because I'm hoping DPR will see it. The ability to change the LAST feedback with a vendor needs to be reintroduced. Since all other feedback will be fixed a buyer will not be able to blackmail a vendor by changing multiple old feedbacks.
        The main benefit of this pertains to FE. As we all know the main and most successful scam perpetuated by a vendor is an exit scam, where a vendor who is trusted by the community asks a lot of people to FE and then fucks off with the money. Other minor, selective scams rely on FE too. However we all also know that many vendors legitimately ask new untrusted buyers to FE, to protect themselves from scam buyers.
       In the past, the main way of monitoring this was by watching a vendors feedback. If you saw a lot of FE you could watch the feedback for a few days. If the FEs turned into happy customers, you would know all was good. But if many of the FEs turned to 'product never arrived, vendor has promised to resend' you would know to be wary.
       But now, where feedback can only be left once and then perhaps deleted, a customer who is asked to FE has two options:
1)  to leave a feedback saying 'FE'. This is uninformative to other buyers. Even if the feedback is later deleted, another buyer cannot glean much from this.
2) to wait and see, and leave feedback when it comes. This is OK if the stuff comes and hopefully the customer will mention the FE in feedback. However if its a no show we have a problem. No one,  (*).  particularly a new buyer, wants to yell "Scam". You are inclined to give the vendor chance. Since if the vendor is scamming he will string you along with promises, its unlikely you will want to leave a bad feedback until you are sure you have been scammed. This will be far too late to warn other buyers. The problem is excaberated by the fact you cannot tell if others are in the same boat, as they are dealing with same dilemma.

         If it were still possible to modify feedback then the feedback would be:
(At first) 'FE WILL UPDATE 5/5'

(When product is late) 'FE not arrived yet but remain hopefull 5/5'

(When all hope gone) 'FE and vendor lying bastard 1/5'

If this process of gradual disillusionment could be shared with other customers it would help prevent them from suffering the same mistreatment at the hands of an unscrupulous soon to be ex-vendor.

         Like it or not, many new buyers are faced with a choice: FE for a top vendor, or stay in escrow for a more sketchy vendor. I FEd my first 5 orders and got scammed on my 6th. Never FEd since. The inability to edit feedback has an unintended consequence of making FE customers even more vulnerable than they were before.

       I hope I have explained this sufficiently clearly and it can be taken into consideration.


(* except assholes. You always have to make an exception for assholes)
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: NorcoCo on August 31, 2013, 11:05 pm
Because I have only had 2 buyers leave written feedback, the appearance on my vendor page is that I have only had 2 sales finalized in the last 9 days. It suprises me you don't seem to realize how bad that is for sales.

+1

Anyone in sales knows that "social proof" is extremely important. Now that buyers can no longer gauge sales volume for a product by looking at recent feedback, they miss out on critical information that would ease their purchasing decision.

To replace this lost functionality, there should be a way to communicate how "hot" an item is to potential buyers. Maybe a separate metric such as "orders in last 24hrs"?

Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: Hungry ghost on August 31, 2013, 11:23 pm
Just to add to my above post, I remember that before the changes, a typical vendor would have at least a couple of 'FE will update' on his front page, often more. As I explained a lot of these people will now not leave feedback till much later. Add to this the large number of people who are not leaving feedback at all now and we are missing a lot of useful information.
        While we can sometimes learn a lot from 'the dog who didn't bark in the night' in this case it is unsatisfactory
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: convergedlight on August 31, 2013, 11:36 pm
I feel bad for not being able to review right away since it can only be written once, so what I usually do when I receive my purchases now is finalize, give the vendor 5/5, and write the vendor a note thanking them and saying it might be a little bit before I get to a review since I have to make time to try the product, but that I haven't forgotten.

So, there would be some value if all the orders were somehow listed under reviews, whether or not they were reviewed yet, to give an indication to all buyers, especially new users, of the successful sales going on.  Maybe in this hypothetical system if someone wanted to FE, they can do that with no rating, at first, and then provide the numbered rating upon receiving the product even if they can't leave a full review yet.  Of course, if all orders were listed it would be more important than ever for the aliases to not be there next to the orders.  Of course, whether or not the user FEs, there is some benefit to seeing the track record of recent sales regardless of whether there is a full review, especially when reviews can often take awhile now.
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: Kiwikiikii on September 01, 2013, 06:58 am
look at all u dumb bitches moaning about how people dont leave feedback anymore and yet when i suggest that buyer be made to leave feedback after x weeks from finalizing u all scoff. deal with it, buyers aint going to go the extra mile for you and dpr doesnt give a shit about your ratings, just look at your ghey bar graph.
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: Cimicon-Rep on September 01, 2013, 07:13 am
Because I have only had 2 buyers leave written feedback, the appearance on my vendor page is that I have only had 2 sales finalized in the last 9 days. It suprises me you don't seem to realize how bad that is for sales.

+1

Anyone in sales knows that "social proof" is extremely important. Now that buyers can no longer gauge sales volume for a product by looking at recent feedback, they miss out on critical information that would ease their purchasing decision.

To replace this lost functionality, there should be a way to communicate how "hot" an item is to potential buyers. Maybe a separate metric such as "orders in last 24hrs"?



Definitely an interesting idea.

But doesn't any given listing show the most recent sales with ratings and feedback if feedback was left? Not that many buyers actually click on the vendor's profile. Instead, they simply search by category and look at the listings in the category. Then they click on listings to see the particulars of the product. That's where they would see most recent sales at the bottom of the product listing's page.
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: Green-Android on September 01, 2013, 09:39 am
Why is the view feedback option gone? We can only watch recent sales. I want to see an overview from all the reviews I get or do everybody just finalize, giving a number and do not leave any review?
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: NW Nugz on September 01, 2013, 02:06 pm
Because I have only had 2 buyers leave written feedback, the appearance on my vendor page is that I have only had 2 sales finalized in the last 9 days. It suprises me you don't seem to realize how bad that is for sales.

+1

Anyone in sales knows that "social proof" is extremely important. Now that buyers can no longer gauge sales volume for a product by looking at recent feedback, they miss out on critical information that would ease their purchasing decision.

To replace this lost functionality, there should be a way to communicate how "hot" an item is to potential buyers. Maybe a separate metric such as "orders in last 24hrs"?



Definitely an interesting idea.

But doesn't any given listing show the most recent sales with ratings and feedback if feedback was left? Not that many buyers actually click on the vendor's profile. Instead, they simply search by category and look at the listings in the category. Then they click on listings to see the particulars of the product. That's where they would see most recent sales at the bottom of the product listing's page.

Thanks for the support NorcoCo. I like your proposed item popularity metric. I don't usually sell a lot of each of my items, so, an item popularity metric would not solve my NEED to have potential buyers be able to tell NW Nugz has had a lot of 5/5 finalizations recently.

Cimicon-Rep, yes, If written feedback was left, the "recent sales with ratings and feedback" is shown for those transactions. But, only for the rare transactions that the buyer leaves written feedback on. Most transactions are not displayed on the vendor page or on item pages. So, sales seem to be very low even if they are not.
I agree buyers often skip looking at a vendors page when shopping (and usually fail to read most of it when they do look). A buyer looking for a new vendor to buy a relatively expensive product from, on the other hand, will often do much more research than the average shopper. Trying a new vendor of an expensive product is usually a well researched decision, esp. if you are a new buyer and are going to be asked to FE. Currently, I don't think buyers can find out if a vendor has made a lot of sales recently. That metric is so important to their research that they are currently flying blind as far as I can tell. No wonder my sales are still down so much.

EDIT: The current system is great for vendors with almost no current sales as they appear as popular as truly popular vendors. A few fake purchases that leave feedback and some fake anonymous discussion and I think you look almost as legit as a real vendor.
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: SaCr3m3nT on September 07, 2013, 09:09 am
This new feedback system takes no account of errors by buyers in the rating system, and actually penalises the vendors for a buyers mistake.

I have two buyer errors in my vendor feedback, admitted as such by the buyers hitting the wrong button or thinking they were dealing with a completely different transaction. One is unrated and the other is 4/5. Now all parties admit that these are mistakes and have said so - but the ONLY option is to remove the feedback entirely thus penalising the vendor (who has done nothing wrong and in fact is doing everything perfectly!) because they cannot get the two 5/5 ratings counting towards their rating. How is this fair? This system takes no account of human error, and I haven't yet met one that doesn't make mistakes.

This issue needs addressing.
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: SaCr3m3nT on September 07, 2013, 09:17 am
Also if a transaction is unrated, why and how does one get the ability to publicly review that transaction?

Unrated but definitely reviewable on the vendor page?

A mistake somewhere surely?

Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: Jack N Hoff on September 07, 2013, 10:02 am
Also if a transaction is unrated, why and how does one get the ability to publicly review that transaction?

Unrated but definitely reviewable on the vendor page?

A mistake somewhere surely?

Someone felt it would be a good idea to have unrated as an option.  I had a customer that purchased a $4,000 USD listing accidentally click unrated.  He still left a review. :-\
Title: Re: more updates in ratings and reviews overhaul
Post by: SaCr3m3nT on September 07, 2013, 10:24 am
Also if a transaction is unrated, why and how does one get the ability to publicly review that transaction?

Unrated but definitely reviewable on the vendor page?

A mistake somewhere surely?

Someone felt it would be a good idea to have unrated as an option.  I had a customer that purchased a $4,000 USD listing accidentally click unrated.  He still left a review. :-\

I have the exact same problem. Why would anyone want to review something they don't want to rate? And then they write out the rate in the review anyway. It's an obvious mistake but in this sytem there is no way to deal with honest errors. So vendors are penalised as a result. Any system that does not allow for user error is a poor and flawed system, and I should know I design them for a living.

Fucking crazy.