Silk Road forums
Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: inigo on January 13, 2013, 05:22 pm
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Week 20: The Creature From Jekyll Island (Section VI: Chapter 26 + Appendix)
THIS IS IT! The very last chapter and the last weekly reading assignment of this book.
Chapter 26 starts on page 565 and we will read through til the end, and then there is even an interesting Appendix after it that ends on page 595.
Read those 30 pages and we will have finally finished this monster of a book. :P
I hope you guys enjoyed this wonderfully educational book, and more than that I hope you took away something much more meaningful from it. I truly wish that this book club serves as a source of intellectual inspiration for you, and gives you the food for thought your hungry mind needs to grow into a beautifully wise, aware, passionate, and motivated hero that our freedom movement so desperately needs.
Anyway back to the book, read the last 30 pages we have left, and write up a post here describing the impact this book as a whole has had on you, your opinion of the book and/or the federal reserve, or any feelings you have on the matter what-so-ever.
-Inigo
P.S. - Stay tuned for an announcement on the next book we will be reading. Also, I can't promise this 100%, but we are considering having another Movie Night before we start the next book. PM me with any suggestions or ideas you may have for a movie to watch. Keep the theme of this book club in mind when making movie suggestions. For example, last time we watched "V for Vendetta" (perfect example of the theme we're looking for, but obviously don't choose that as your suggestion since we already watched it :P)
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Week 19: The Creature From Jekyll Island (Section VI: Chapter 25)
Ok boys and girls, we're getting really close to done with this book.
Let's go ahead and read chapter 25, and then next week we'll read the final chapter of the book.
See below for links to free digital versions of the book.
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Week 18: The Creature From Jekyll Island (Section VI: Chapter 24)
This week we will start the final section, and read Chapter 24: Doomsday Mechanisms. There will be two more chapters after this one and then we will be done with the book.
Please read from page 505-536
Again, here are links to free digital versions:
The PDF file that we're hosting can be downloaded from: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/the_creature_from_jekyll_island_GEG.pdf
The EPUB can be downloaded from: http://www.mediafire.com/?8054v223a15fl8i
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Week 17: The Creature From Jekyll Island (Section V: Chapter 22-23)
Sorry for the delay since last update. :-[
We really need to get this book club into gear, and by the time we start our next book I would love to hear any ideas from you guys about how to make this place better, how to swell our numbers and recruit new readers, how to make this place more engaging and exciting. I know I haven't been the best leader, but I promise to dedicate much more time and energy if you guys can show me there are enough of you who would like to see a thriving book club. Please PM me with any ideas or suggestions you have.
As for this week, we need to play catch up a bit, as I'm sure many of you are ahead right now.
Let's read the next two chapters to finish off Section V, Chapters 22 and 23, which span from pages 451 to 503. Then next Friday we will begin the final section. Anybody have anything to add so far about how this book has affected them? What they have learned so far? Anything on this subject burning in your minds, needing a discussion?
Let's make this place a thriving hub of liberty-themed inspiration. I know you guys are out there, the ones who share this passion, and those who don't even know they share this passion yet. ;)
For any of you just joining us, here are some links that you can download the book for free:
The PDF file that we're hosting can be downloaded from: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/the_creature_from_jekyll_island_GEG.pdf
The EPUB can be downloaded from: http://www.mediafire.com/?8054v223a15fl8i
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Excellent book. Another nice summary can be found at this link:
http://mises.org/Books/mysteryofbanking.pdf
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I did find the book on Amazon Kindle, but it is a bit expensive - $23.00. However, I can read it on my home computer and on my smart-ass phone (heh heh).
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I haven't tried yet, but is there a way to post the Kindle edition on this forum? Than way everyone who wants to participate will be able to. Normally I don't go for pirating (not too much, anyway ;) ), but since this is for educational purposes I figure it's cool.
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Fresh outta Newbie Hell and looking forward to participating.
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i found a link to a pdf scan of the whole book and pm'd the OP, hopefully he'll update his post with it.
but you've got to give credit to the guy, its an amazing book. (not that he'll receive a penny of royalties from our purchases)
if anyone does want the link, pm me.
im not sure if the epub includes the images that are in the pdf version of the book.
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OP updated with first week's assignment. Dig in!
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Guess I'll jump in....
I appreciate the writing style and the author's clear desire to communicate the message/issue to the layperson. Academics are entrenched in the very system he writes about, so to write for an elite audience would do little to foster a meaningful conversation. A few points that caught my attention:
1) The quote from Frank Vanderlip's 2/9/35 article in the Saturday Evening Post: "Despite my views about the value to society of greater publicity for the affairs of corporations, there was an occasion, near the close of 1910, when I was as secretive - indeed, as furtive - as any consipirator..." Either he's telling himself he values greater publicity in order to sleep better at night, or the views are legitimate and suggest that even those who are supporters of greater corporate transparency can be co-opted when presented with the right combination of motive/opportunity - a scary but not surprising concept.
2) The bankers' intent to develop a program that would allow for a shift of losses from themselves to the taxpayers, and making it "appear to be a problem of the national economy rather than of private banking practice." That's exactly what has happened over the past few years. I had to check the copyright date and was stunned that this book was first written nearly 20 years ago, well before our current crisis. (Side note: 2013 is the 100-year anniversary of the creation of the Federal Reserve.) That said, I think the public perceives our current situation as the fault of the banks, but sees our government as unwilling (or unable) to do anything meaningful about it.
Anyways, this good introduction, combined with the funny-because-it-is-true Q&A to open the book, tells me I'm going to enjoy seeing Griffin rip the Fed apart - but suspect I'm going to end it feeling frustrated that little if any real change is coming anytime soon. I hope I'm wrong.
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I found it amusing that the author refers to banks as a cartel. Does the recent movement of people taking their money from banks, esp. the large "too big to fail" ones like Bank of America & moving it into Credit unions do anyithing to fight the cartels?
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OP updated for week 2's reading assignment.
Great post impkin! Thanks for starting off the discussion! +1 to you!
bull3gern: I haven't heard about a migration towards credit unions, but that sounds like it would be a great start. can you cite any sources that reference this? I'd love to read more about it.
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Here is an early one from Jan 2010:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-mica/consumers-are-moving----
t_b_414190.html
An older one from :Jan 2012
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-01-30/news/31004672_1_new-bank-
debit-card-fee-big-bank
There are just two, for brevitie's sake. I do recall, as does one of these
articles, that this was when BofA was sticking some type of $5.00 fee per
(non-BofA) buisinesses? Another article from Business Insider mentioned
Chase did some similar stunt.
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Thanks for those!
Everyone should stick to credit unions for their banking needs, that's a great way to take some power from the "cartels" and back into the hands of the people.
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I have heard (most likely from a Ron Paul Youtube vid) about the Fed. Reserve having no oversight, as in the checks-and-balances of the 3 main branches of govt. Who appoints the heads of this bank, is it done from within (the Fed Reserve itself), or are they voted in my a congressional committee, appointed by the Pres.? As I read this book I wish I had read R. Paul's "End the Fed", which has been on my bookshelf close to a year now. I also have some question regarding the FDIC - I had been under the impression (as I don't do investment banking, only commercial) that it was like a trust fund set up to protect induviduals' $$$ in the bank if the bank were to fail. I guess the point of chs. 2 & 3 were that at some point, IOU's issued to cover due IOU's to cover more of the same would cease to work, and inflation (presumably runaway) would result. I think that ENRON referred to these sort of accounting devices as "raptors" - i.e., owning a company whose value is based on how much of your own stock it has, and basing your main company's value by the value of the assets of the held companies. It seems that ENRON went down to hell really quickly after their bubble burst (energy stock bubble? - it's difficult to figure out the bubbles we've been through in the past 15 years).
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Regarding the FDIC, I found the section on moral hazard interesting in that the banks have little incentive to behave properly and that, in fact, "good" banks are essentially penalized and forced to engage in more risky behavior just to keep pace financially. Throw LIBOR manipulation into the mix and good banks stand little chance.
This is where the libertarian argument starts to fall apart for me. Sure, the government doesn't seem to be helping matters, but I fail to understand how a free-market economy would fare any better. The founders of the Fed had to be secretive about it only because what they wanted to do was illegal. In a less-regulated economy, they could have just gone ahead and done it openly, without the backroom dealings. However, in a regulated economy where the regulations are actually enforced (pipe dream, perhaps), these sorts of behaviors could be minimized. Without regulation and enforcement, what's to stop the collusion?
Makes me wonder if civil disobedience via intentional bankruptcies would throw enough of a wrench in the system to fuck things up for the better... or only bring the roof down on our own heads.
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impkin, the bit you said about civil disobedience via bankruptcies makes a lot of sense on a number of levels, some unrelated to this thread. I filed in the late 1980's as did a great many others in this country (I read about the mounting bankruptcies from the news and probably US News & World Report - I can't produce any specific source, but it was common news at the time). I do recall in circa the early 1990's the govt. had passed laws making filing (as an induvidual) a great deal more difficult. There were articles of couples running up credit card bills & routinely filing every 7-10 years, depending on what state they lived in. I got the idea that wealthier folks got sore that the "common man" figured out one of their strategies.
I share your distrust of the libertarian idea at this point as well. Free markets work well if everybody plays by the rules, but there are just enough greedy shitheads around to fuck up the program for most people. I also do not like the idea of no safety net (welfare, unemployment, workmans' comp, etc.), so to an extent I find that I lean a bit to the left, actually am a very left libertarian. But I must add that we would all be better off with about 75% of the federal & state govt. dis-banded due to their constant meddling (and totally screwing up) everything they touch, with the exception of starting a war, we're good at fucking up in that manner.
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This is where the libertarian argument starts to fall apart for me. Sure, the government doesn't seem to be helping matters, but I fail to understand how a free-market economy would fare any better. The founders of the Fed had to be secretive about it only because what they wanted to do was illegal. In a less-regulated economy, they could have just gone ahead and done it openly, without the backroom dealings. However, in a regulated economy where the regulations are actually enforced (pipe dream, perhaps), these sorts of behaviors could be minimized. Without regulation and enforcement, what's to stop the collusion?
The Federal Reserve system relies on the force of government to maintain it's monopoly power on the issuance of money. This is how all central banks maintain their control. Without the state's involvement, people would be free to use whatever currency they like. Historically this was gold. If the founders of the fed tried to do what they did w/o the Federal Reserve Act legislation, and later the Brenton Woods agreement, they would have failed miserably. No one would have bought into their system.
In fact, this is the beauty of libertarianism. The people are free to choose what system they want. No need for one size fits all government solutions. If you want to use a debt based inflationary monetary system, go right ahead, doesn't affect me so long as you don't try to force me to use it as well.
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In fact, this is the beauty of libertarianism. The people are free to choose what system they want. No need for one size fits all government solutions. If you want to use a debt based inflationary monetary system, go right ahead, doesn't affect me so long as you don't try to force me to use it as well.
But doesn't that require that a majority of people pay attention and actually give a fuck? Certain systems (I'm thinking money here) require a critical mass to remain viable, and if large portions of the population can't be bothered to look behind the curtain, won't the business/system with the most persuasive marketing (i.e. propaganda) get the lion's share of the business? Without regulations, what's to stop Merchant Joe from refusing to accept my choice of currency (let's call it gold), thereby forcing me to either shop from a smaller pool of vendors, who may realize they have a captive audience and decide to band together to keep their prices high, or adopting the Most Popular Currency (let's call it skittles) as my own?
Ok, so I tell Merchant Joe to go fuck himself - I'll shop somewhere else - but what if my employer only wants to pay me in skittles? Is he free to do that if he chooses, in which case I then have to find someone who's willing to exchange skittles for gold? Then I'm paying an exchange fee on top of it. Sounds a bit like Bitcoins, now that I think of it....
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None of us would remember as we were not born, but the railroad companies in the 19th cen used to pay their workers in currency that was only good at company-owned stores. These were the days before the dollar was standardized as a currency, and what would happen is that the RR companies controlled the their workforce - the workers could not buy food & clothing anywhere else unless the RR owned it. As I recall from reading American History books (in grade school or some other distant young age) this was some of the reasoning for standardizing or strengthening the dollar - so that it could be used across society and to promote free enterprise as opposed to issuing certificates again usable only in businesses wholly run by the rail companies. Mostly these workers got food, clothes, whiskey & whores only, nevertheless, they couldn't use these certificates anywhere else. Like working at a Wal-mart and being paid with Wal-mart gift cards good for purchases only at a Wal-mart.
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None of us would remember as we were not born, but the railroad companies in the 19th cen used to pay their workers in currency that was only good at company-owned stores. These were the days before the dollar was standardized as a currency, and what would happen is that the RR companies controlled the their workforce - the workers could not buy food & clothing anywhere else unless the RR owned it. As I recall from reading American History books (in grade school or some other distant young age) this was some of the reasoning for standardizing or strengthening the dollar - so that it could be used across society and to promote free enterprise as opposed to issuing certificates again usable only in businesses wholly run by the rail companies. Mostly these workers got food, clothes, whiskey & whores only, nevertheless, they couldn't use these certificates anywhere else. Like working at a Wal-mart and being paid with Wal-mart gift cards good for purchases only at a Wal-mart.
Brutal. I really like this thread. I was going to mention this book in another thread, although I haven't read it. I have, however, been doing research on this stuff for a few years now.
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Great example, bull3gern.
I would argue that there is a need for a one-size fits all government solution to counter the very example bull3gern provided. That said, to DPR's point, there's a strong argument to be made that the solution should NOT be based on an inflationary monetary system. And in fact, as current times prove (BTC, Lindens, various local currencies, etc.), you *are* able to legally use alternative forms of monetary exchange. The only time you are *required* to use USD is to pay taxes; all other times it is your choice whether to engage in USD-based transactions or not. If you can find someone who is willing to conduct the transaction in the alternate currency of your choosing, you are free to do so. In my opinion, using alternative currencies is one of the stronger political statements one can make.
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Insisting that you pay your taxes in their fiat currency is pretty much the main means by which a state enforces its use.
I don't have much to add to the debate yet as only just started book. I will say that it's unlikely that we could go back onto the gold standard as there is nowhere near enough gold in the world to back the value of all current financial transactions; the global economy has expanded exponentially since then. Whether this is a house of cards or not is another matter.
We should remember that no currency has value of itself, even gold(when used as currency) . It is only valuable because everyone agrees to accept it. The US dollar is valuable in US because the government insists in receiving it as taxes; but worldwide it has value because everyone trusts it to hold its value.
Even in the past when gold coins were in use, during the Roman empire for example, often the coins were adulterated and only held their value because of the head of the emperor on them.
I'm just rambling here, I'll read the book and try and contribute further.
But I have noticed a tendency among libertarians to regard fiat currency as in someway counterfeit ?
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^^Impkin, I take your point that you could carry on a business selling goods and accepting payment only in bitcoins, linden dollars, iron nails, livestock, large carved stone discs, etc. But the political protest will be rendered impotent by the fact that the US government will require you to calculate any profit you make from these transactions and convert them into dollars to pay tax on that profit.
I'm not sure how the IRS deals with barter transactions actually.... it's an interesting question. I suppose at the end of the tax year they would just calculate the dollar value of all your stuff, compare it to last year and tax the difference?
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^^Impkin, I take your point that you could carry on a business selling goods and accepting payment only in bitcoins, linden dollars, iron nails, livestock, large carved stone discs, etc. But the political protest will be rendered impotent by the fact that the US government will require you to calculate any profit you make from these transactions and convert them into dollars to pay tax on that profit.
I'm not sure how the IRS deals with barter transactions actually.... it's an interesting question. I suppose at the end of the tax year they would just calculate the dollar value of all your stuff, compare it to last year and tax the difference?
IRS Form 1099-B, Proceeds from Broker and Barter Exchange Transactions. Looks like individuals are considered an "exchange" if they engage in 100+ barter transactions in a given year. Though, to your point - I guess if you can make the case that your exchanges resulted in $0 net gain, then there's no tax to be paid. Would make for an interesting audit, that's for sure.
Makes me wonder whether Bitcoin traders are technically required to pay tax on any gains. Reminds me of a fascinating book: "How I Quit My Day Job and Made Millions Trading Virtual Loot" by Julian Dibbell (might make for a good book club read). If I remember correctly, the author spoke with a tax advisor who concluded that yes, he should be paying taxes on gains he made from buying/selling/ trading World of Warcraft MMO items, but that the IRS had no mechanism (yet) for him to do so.
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I have been wondering if we could return to the gold standard, thinking the same thing - the world economy has become too large. Too many people (2 billion?) in Asia have gotten the west's materialism disease, but this is just speculation.
I didn't specifically know about IRS 1099-B (no surprise, the greedy bastards); I would have assumed that a company would be required to pay a tax on inventory at the end of the year (I recall when working in retail doing inventory on entire warehouses of stuff, all the way down to washers, nuts, screws, etc. Maddening and fascinating at the same time!).
Back in the barter tax, I did make some money (about 5.00$) trading Litecoins earlier, but I don't think the US gov. regards that as a real currency. Not that I'd bother reporting 5 bucks in earnings...
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OP updated for week 3's reading assignment.
Great discussion guys, makes me happy to see you all participating :)
Welcome back Hungry ghost! great to see you with us again, I'm looking forward to your impressions of this book
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I'm not sure how the IRS deals with barter transactions actually
Barter is taxed based on the value of commodities being traded. If you barter too much, you are legally held liable for additional taxes as a penalty for bartering.
The solution is obviously Bitcoin or something like it.
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raynardine, how does one actually set the value of a commodity, zB, sheep and finished leather clothes. I happen to be a sheep farmer in Montana or Idaho who actually trades 1 sheep for 3 leather vests, and never use the dollar (or whatever currency) at all. How would an entity like the IRS, who is using the dollar, put a monetary-based value on that.
What I'm picturing is several native american tribes, one of which is good at making arrowheads but are terrible archers, and another who is really good at hunting but are real butterfingers at making anything tool-wise?
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Well, I've been reading ahead a couple of chapters. I found it interesting the way inflation was regarded as a "hidden tax", something I never thought of. But that is exactly what happens when a govt. prints more money - the monetary unit is devalued as there are more in circulation. Obviously then everybody pays the tax as goods, food clothes, etc are a bit higher. And we know wages will never increase at the same percentage rate as inflation. I plan on looking up a bit more on how the IMF and World Bank operate, maybe find a book on the history of those bodies (something for another book thread?).
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OP updated for week 4 reading selection
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subscribing and joining the club
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Well, I've finished section 1 at this point, and am questioning the whole western world's banking / monetary paradigm. At the beginning of the current recession / depression I remember in the news reports from some congressmen concerning their constituents' opinions of bailing out the number of "too big to fail" jerk-off corporations consisting of replies such as "not no, but hell no!". Yet AIG, GM, GMAC, Chrystler (again), and a few other large investment houses were bailed out anyway. I could see some logic in bailing out GM - the ripple effect through the industries that made, for example, the electronics for the vehicles would suffer. There was some problems along those lines when Katrina wasted New Orleans - (going by memory) I recall some news articles about a GMC truck line held up due to one of it's suppliers in the New Orleans area couldn't make a certain part, and apparently there was not another supplier (for said part). But I have never understood the rational of bailing out AIG or other firms for making bad business decisions. Why did the govt. let Lehman Bros. fail and not the others? Lehman's was the 2nd or 3rd large institution to get in trouble, but not the last one. Did the Fed. Reserve people let it fall in order to say "Look, we didn't bail out everybody. Lehman's is gone, see?" With this kind of govt. shit, there is no wonder conspiracy theories abound.
Oh yeah, Welcome, khorne flake, to the discussion!
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I am still a bit behind as I've been busy; just got to the bit where a audience member on the Donahue show says "But why can't the government pay these debts instead of the taxpayer?"! Classic!
Well, I've been reading ahead a couple of chapters. I found it interesting the way inflation was regarded as a "hidden tax", something I never thought of. But that is exactly what happens when a govt. prints more money - the monetary unit is devalued as there are more in circulation. Obviously then everybody pays the tax as goods, food clothes, etc are a bit higher. And we know wages will never increase at the same percentage rate as inflation. I plan on looking up a bit more on how the IMF and World Bank operate, maybe find a book on the history of those bodies (something for another book thread?).
Yes this is a concept I only came to understand recently; in a different book actually. Inflation is generally just thought of as a fact of life; but in fact it is caused by banks creating money out of thin air. The worst part of this is that the banks have "first use" of the money, before it has caused the inflation. So they get the full value of it, while as it drifts down through society it becomes increasingly less valuable.
With regard to the "too big to fail" blackmail that was perpetrated on the taxpayers of, well, the world recently: it's a key component of blackmail that the consequences threatened by the blackmailer are genuine, or at least perceived to be genuine by his victim(s)
The consequences of allowing all the threatened financial institutions to fail would indeed have been dire; whether it would have been worse for the taxpayer than the huge debt burden that has been placed on our quivering shoulders is a difficult question.
On a personal level, I feel like I'm running to stand still financially. I have a young family and am self employed ( I realize I am potentially deanonymizing myself somewhat, but it doesn't matter, I hardly use SR much these days, can't afford drugs! I come to the forums for the interesting conversation) and everything is more expensive while at the same time customers are more inclined to haggle and drag their feet paying. But at least the banks didn't fail!
I'll try and come back with a more intelligent contribution when I have time.
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A comment on the junk bonds as best as I can recall - Mike Milken of Drexel-something-something back in the late 1980's; were those bonds issued based on the "stellar" performance of Drexel & friends? Again, this is like Enron's "raptors" - valuing a company on stock issued by the company that owns them. In hindsight (which may be 20/20 if you're lucky) that seemed to say "we're running out of money that we're supposed to have" (like a pyramid scheme), so they would count on their good reputation, tricking people to by these bonds just to have them evaporate. I do not recall whether they were called "junk" before or after they imploded, and neither do I recall them recovering (I wasn't a money sort of person).
My opinion of that era was that there was too much trickery going on - bankers & financiers engineering all the money tricks that eventually collapsed. Admittedly, I'm still rather ignorant of how a lot of it came about.
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Let me introduce myself by expressing my enthusiasm for this site (SR) and especially for the forums, and this thread in particular. Three months ago the idea that I would be a member of an online anonymous black market drug community would have been a laughable notion. Even more absurd is the idea that attached to that site is a book club filled with intelligent, articulate, anarchists. To top it all, I'm now reading a book about what is possibly the most banal subject imaginable, the Federal Reserve, and I am unable to put it down.
Good to know that there are so many independent minded people like myself out there.
Looking forward to plenty of good discussion. Now back to reading...
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Wise criminals are safe criminals.
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Week 5 reading selection up
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irreverent and irrelevant, I have been debating reading R. Paul's "End the Fed" along with this one we're reading. I haven't read any Ron Paul yet, is he a tough read?
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Anything by Ron Paul is pure gold!!! One of my top 3 biggest personal hero's of all time. End the Fed is obviously a classic and would go perfectly with what we're currently reading. But if your going to be picking up some Ron Paul books, make sure you grab Liberty Defined. Its a super easy and very informative read that describes his libertarian views and proposed solutions to just about EVERY single issue you can think of, wonderful book for those interested in learning more about libertarian views.
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just started reading. finished chapter 1.. awesome read so into it!
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@bull3gern
I haven't read End the Fed, although I am a huge Ron Paul supporter. Its unfortunate that his son is such a tool. We really need someone young to carry on his message.
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Socialism
G. Edward Griffin seems to have a serious beef against socialism, as do pretty much all of the right wing pundits we see spitting venom every night on the cable news channels. I'm not comparing Griffin to these morons, but I would like to make the argument that socialism itself is not the problem. It seems to me, that the major contributing factors to the problems outlined in this book are government corruption and/or ignorance. Social programs are simply the means by which the "creature" expands its influence on to every aspect of American life. That doesn't mean that socialism is inherently flawed.
Socialism can work, and has in many nations. Socialism will not work here, but I think it is important to point out the real cause of our problems instead of just demonizing a certain type of government.
Thoughts?
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Why would socialism not work here (at least to a bit of an extent)? We have Social Security, Welfare,Medicare & Medicaid. I generally agree that it is the bankers & politicians mucking up functional social programs. At this point I will admit that SS - Medicaid / Medicare are under more stress that people thought about 30 years ago simply because there are many more retirees. Similar argument about prescription drug OD's - more people are taking them, not that people are taking more.
One thing in this book that really floors me is how can deposits in a bank, which are assets, be lent out and become more assets (can my credit card available money be (safely) called an asset, when it will become a liability within 4 weeks of me putting these "assets" to work? This seems to be a good way for the Mafia to run, not a govt.
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The US was built around the concept of individualism. We embrace personal liberty, which is essentially the opposite of socialism. Socialism, to be effective, requires a certain esprit de corps, a sense that the needs of the community trumps one's own needs. Additionally, this country is too large, and too diverse culturally, racially, and in terms of values and beliefs.
1. Part of the reason that the systems you mentioned are failing is that a significant portion of the population opposes any type of social programs. People are unwilling to give the programs the funding they need to function properly.
2. The other reason is that the larger any system becomes, the more room there is for corruption. SS isn't working, because congressmen leach money from the system to fund their own pet projects, and corruption is basically the cause of the current health care crisis.
I'm no expert, but I would imagine that those two problems are less of an issue in small, cohesive nations such as Sweden and Cuba.
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(Damn, these servers are busy - took 3 days to log on!)
It's a shame about how the congressman drain funding for their own projects - seems that was the case recently with some of the Hurricane Sandy reliefe funds - they got a lot of absolutely irrelevant pork attached (I'll look for an example or two, it was quite recent). Cases like that makes one glad the Govt. (is presently) doing little good.
I found the Mandrake Mechanism interesting - we see that everyday - rename something that sounds good in order to get people to accept it. The classic one I remember is calling Ronald Reagan's Contra rebels (non-Communist terrorists) in Nicaragua "Freedom Fighters". Yeah, It was back in the 80's with all the big hair & all, but I recall the political cartoons, one in paticular with one soldier telling another (who had a rifle with no stock) "Yes, the U.S. will get you a new gun, but you must promise to stop cutting a knotch in it each time you kill". Money in the bank = safe thing? No! Excess Reserves (that must be lent out)! And what IS repaid, additional excess reserves. I have a question, does a bank ever replace its balance on it's books, or is money paid back always just excess reserves? Why not simply throw it in the street?
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I have a question for anybody: does the Federal reserve ever take bills out of circulation (not including physically worn out bills)? And if they did, would this counter the hidden tax of inflation? I read a short article online today about failed currencies, most in S. America, but also the Weimar Republic, aka, Germany post WWI? I have never, to my recollection, read or heard about the Fed removing $$$ from circulation.
Just a thought. Now, back to reading...
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Nothing earth-shaking here this time, but I found an article that I hope everybody will find at least a bit interesting:
http://www.cnbc.com/100560304
snack-cracker for thought.
Hope I spelled that OK, I am binging on Vitamine K at this moment........
bulll3gern
;D
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OP updated with weekly reading assignment
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I'm doing my best to catch up with this book and be able to join the discussion. Sorry if I am interrupting the discussion with this post, just wanted you to know that you have a very interested party waiting to jump into the club as soon as he catches up :)
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I'm doing my best to catch up with this book and be able to join the discussion. Sorry if I am interrupting the discussion with this post, just wanted you to know that you have a very interested party waiting to jump into the club as soon as he catches up :)
Your not interrupting anything, which is why I'm so excited to see somebody else interested in jumping in!! Welcome aboard friend! :)
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Thank you, sending you a PM about something off topic, hope u can help! :)
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I'm doing my best to catch up with this book and be able to join the discussion. Sorry if I am interrupting the discussion with this post, just wanted you to know that you have a very interested party waiting to jump into the club as soon as he catches up :)
Thank you so much for the warm welcome, motivation to keep reading!
Your not interrupting anything, which is why I'm so excited to see somebody else interested in jumping in!! Welcome aboard friend! :)
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Guess I'll jump in....
I appreciate the writing style and the author's clear desire to communicate the message/issue to the layperson. Academics are entrenched in the very system he writes about, so to write for an elite audience would do little to foster a meaningful conversation. A few points that caught my attention:
1) The quote from Frank Vanderlip's 2/9/35 article in the Saturday Evening Post: "Despite my views about the value to society of greater publicity for the affairs of corporations, there was an occasion, near the close of 1910, when I was as secretive - indeed, as furtive - as any consipirator..." Either he's telling himself he values greater publicity in order to sleep better at night, or the views are legitimate and suggest that even those who are supporters of greater corporate transparency can be co-opted when presented with the right combination of motive/opportunity - a scary but not surprising concept.
2) The bankers' intent to develop a program that would allow for a shift of losses from themselves to the taxpayers, and making it "appear to be a problem of the national economy rather than of private banking practice." That's exactly what has happened over the past few years. I had to check the copyright date and was stunned that this book was first written nearly 20 years ago, well before our current crisis. (Side note: 2013 is the 100-year anniversary of the creation of the Federal Reserve.) That said, I think the public perceives our current situation as the fault of the banks, but sees our government as unwilling (or unable) to do anything meaningful about it.
Anyways, this good introduction, combined with the funny-because-it-is-true Q&A to open the book, tells me I'm going to enjoy seeing Griffin rip the Fed apart - but suspect I'm going to end it feeling frustrated that little if any real change is coming anytime soon. I hope I'm wrong.
I am doing my catching up with this book and it has been a slow process. Just finished chapter one however and I have the same feeling that you had. That I am gonna finish this book still feeling frustrated that nothing has changed, people are still unwilling to see the truth and too afraid to seek it. I am going to continue to chapter two, will update with something hopefully more substantive in the days to come.
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Thanks for those!
Everyone should stick to credit unions for their banking needs, that's a great way to take some power from the "cartels" and back into the hands of the people.
That's very good advise. I naturally migrated over to a credit union after being fed up (no pun intended) with the banks I was using. I was not as knowledgeable about the system as I am now, but even back then I distrusted the entire concept. Actually come to think of it I never trusted banks, for whatever reason, possibly something I heard in a Western somewhere that stuck. I have been gradually pulling members of my family into credit unions and will continue to sing their prayers and convert as many as possible!
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have been going through a few chapters to refresh my mind, and will continue to do so. I read this book several years ago, it really opened my mind to the complexities of world finance power, and how blood thirsty evil banksters can be. It reminds me of the money changers dvd, which i seen first, which i suggest EVERYONE watch on you tube. All the families griffith talked about are old world aristocracies willing to take desperate measures to remain the axis of power... from what i research those bloodlines are still the movers and shakers of today, albeit not the only ones. They are the ones who benefit from world governments corporate welfare system.
I think this may be ron pauls favorite book.. I don't think a gold standard is what we need, it will eventually corrupt and be replaced like something even more corrupt -like the FEDS, -lesson learned from history.
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I am so sorry for not updating the book club last week! I can't believe I let that happen. I am really sorry to any of you who I may have let down, but judging from the few comments we've gotten since then it seems like some people are actually trying to catch up so maybe it wasn't such a terrible thing. I hope those who were with us in the beginning of this book haven't given up yet! Has anyone just been reading ahead on their own and moving along? Just kind of want a feeling of whether you guys who are reading this want me to keep a slow pace or speed up? Any advice is welcome!
Posting a new assignment now.
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At one time I would have found it difficult to believe that our Govt. would let something like the Lusitania be "put out" in a vulnerable position as bait in order to pull the US into WWI, but after reading in the past week or two about the deal the CIA make with the Pakistani govt. (killing the Pakistani in exchange for air space rights for drone strikes within Pakistan) I may become a conspiracy theorist believer. The whole thing is shocking, really.
>:(
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Sorry to but in, but I think these may be of interest to you all.
Im an economics student from the UK and there is a course in London called Economic Justice for All.
They have some free lectures which I would advise anyone to listen to.
The theme is about changing economic tactic entirely, how to take Opportunity out of Crisis,
is the telling name to one lecture.
I wont say anymore as the comments that follow should go back to your talk,
the link is here and if anyone is very interested they can start a new discussion thread like
I should have ;)
http://www.economicswithjustice.co.uk/download-lectures/
I will have some comments on the book when I get a chance to catch up.
peace x
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I haven't tried yet, but is there a way to post the Kindle edition on this forum? Than way everyone who wants to participate will be able to. Normally I don't go for pirating (not too much, anyway ;) ), but since this is for educational purposes I figure it's cool.
if people didn't want people to read their books, they wouldn't publish them. it has been shown repeatedly by numerous brave authors who have bucked the propaganda about copyright that people having free access to creative and academic works actually increases sales of the physical books and high quality ebook versions. I couldn't give a damn about stupid government propaganda-protected and violence protected monopolies. Have a look at the 'statute of monopolies 1624' - ostensibly under UK law, it should be illegal for there to be ANY government protected monopolies. This is not the case, obviously, but read up on the history of the statute of monopolies and letters patent to see what I mean. Copyright is no different from government protected monopolies on any other industry.
Also, in this case, I think it is vitally important that more people know about the sordid and dirty history of the Federal Reserve bank and Central Banks in general. I think it *should* be sufficient to point out that central banks to control the price of money, and thereby the price of most commodities, is one of the central planks of the Communist Manifesto. The commies have slid in through the back door, and Obama, in particular, would make Stalin proud with all the communist shit he's been trying to force on the american people.
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I am so sorry for not updating the book club last week! I can't believe I let that happen. I am really sorry to any of you who I may have let down, but judging from the few comments we've gotten since then it seems like some people are actually trying to catch up so maybe it wasn't such a terrible thing. I hope those who were with us in the beginning of this book haven't given up yet! Has anyone just been reading ahead on their own and moving along? Just kind of want a feeling of whether you guys who are reading this want me to keep a slow pace or speed up? Any advice is welcome!
Posting a new assignment now.
Seems to be going along naturally at a perfect pace. Just my opinion tho!
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I'm up to date with the readings, is anyone else?
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Time to catch up on some reading :D
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Time to catch up on some reading :D
Do it!
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I am thrilled to see that there are still some of you sticking with it! ;D
Now we just need to start having some discussions again. :)
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Chapter 20 to me comes off as more rules to the game that the banking system plays. What I get from the reading is that there is certainly a way to exploit this system for good. I am not sure if destroying the system as the way we know it is the answer. I think informing more people on the dangers of this one system as well as ways to circumvent and use the system for ones advantage is a better idea.
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it's unlikely that we could go back onto the gold standard as there is nowhere near enough gold in the world to back the value of all current financial transactions; the global economy has expanded exponentially since then.
This is one of the standard objections raised by mainstream opponents of gold-backed currency. If it were true, couldn't you also say the same thing about Bitcoins? Even after all Bitcoins have been mined, there will only be 21 million of them. Surely that's not enough currency units to support an economy of any size, right?
For now, I will leave the solution as an exercise for the reader. Who can tell me what's wrong with this assertion?
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Oh yes I see what you mean. Bitcoin could support any size economy as its price can just increase until there is enough.
The same goes for gold..... at golds current price there isn't enough, but obviously if a gold standard was reintroduced, the price of gold would increase to fit?
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Oh yes I see what you mean. Bitcoin could support any size economy as its price can just increase until there is enough.
The same goes for gold..... at golds current price there isn't enough, but obviously if a gold standard was reintroduced, the price of gold would increase to fit?
YAY - ESSSS !!!!
Ladies and gents, we have a winnah!
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i know its a bit late but im going to try catch up with you all after a few exams i have :)
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It's never too late to catch up, I'm gonna do some reading myself tonight!
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This is the kick up the ass I need.
I confess, I have not been reading of late. Work, moving home, decorating and so on.
But, its all bullshit, I can make the time to read. I watched 3 hr of TV last week - only just occured to me that I could have read a few chapters instead. And I love reading. Just that we all go through that period in which things are busy and we don't read.
So, I'll download this to my Kindle, and I'll join you.
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OP updated, ran out of room with all the previous weeks updates, so erased all the old and I'm only keeping the new.
I mean what I said in the OP, I really want to get this place thriving in time for the next book, I could use some ideas and suggestions. I know you guys have some good heads on those shoulders, PM me with what you got.
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I mean what I said in the OP, I really want to get this place thriving in time for the next book, I could use some ideas and suggestions. I know you guys have some good heads on those shoulders, PM me with what you got.
What is the "time for the next book"?
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I mean what I said in the OP, I really want to get this place thriving in time for the next book, I could use some ideas and suggestions. I know you guys have some good heads on those shoulders, PM me with what you got.
What is the "time for the next book"?
See the OP. Just updated it.