Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: Dread Pirate Roberts on January 11, 2012, 11:16 am
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To be honest, I am quite surprised by how negative the responses have been to the State of the Road Address and how little faith you put in me after I feel like I have done so much to deserve it. I chose the words I wrote in the Address very carefully. I reviewed it many times. Every one of them is true, and my sentiment is valid. Go through and re-read it along with the clarifications. Every one of your concerns is addressed if you would only do me the courtesy of believing me. This change IS about scam prevention. We ARE working on solutions to the finalizing early and bitcoin exchange scams. We DID do everything we could to keep the rates low while still addressing the present and future needs of the organization. Everyone WILL be treated fairly under the new rules just as you have been all along.
We also need to be WAY more flexible on this kind of stuff. It would be amazing if we could try out lots of different commission rates, some way too high, some way too low, to try to find out what works for everyone, but the minute we even mention changing rates everyone becomes an expert on the subject and puts up resistance to change. There is lots about this organization that just isn't going to be made public and you have to TRUST us that we are doing our absolute best and will always work toward our stated goals, which include giving people the opportunity to choose freedom over tyranny, and to trade in just about any good or service they wish, securely and privately. Our goals DO NOT include profiting personally at anyone else's expense, or the expense of our stated goals. If I am greedy, I am greedy for freedom. I am greedy for power. Not force over others, but for a world where POWER resides in me and each and every individual, where it belongs. If we can get to that world, I can die happy.
Silk Road is an ENTERPRISE that is just getting started. It could literally change the world as we know it. It is bigger than any one of us, and it is going to take the dedication and will of MANY talented people, a lot of luck, and RESOURCES to get from here to there. Do you want to see this thing go all the way and take the absolute piss out of the power mongers of this world? Do you want to give it every chance it needs to succeed? Why aren't you telling me to raise the commission even further then? I don't hear anyone refusing the commission break on high priced goods. I don't hear anyone saying “don't do that, you need it, you keep this whole thing going, we're happy to do our part.”
As a community, if we are going to survive, we need to adopt a LONG TERM vision. Getting the most out of this thing before it gets taken down is NOT going to bring us success. In that world, Silk Road will be a shooting star that burns out quickly and dies as little more than a dream, swallowed by the nightmare reality of an ever-expanding, all-powerful global oligarchy. Planning ahead and doing everything we can NOW to prepare for the war to come is the only way we are going to have a shot at this. We are still mostly ignored by our true enemies, but this incubation WILL NOT last forever.
I don't like writing this kind of stuff publicly because it taunts our enemies and might spur them into action, but I risk it because the context for what we are doing is too often lost in the day to day stuff that happens here and it needs to be put in from time to time. Silk Road NEEDS our support. It needs everything we have. The return on what we put into it will be immeasurable if we can get through the months and years ahead and gain a real foothold on the global stage. HELP ME GET US THERE!!! Do it for me, do it for yourself, do it for your families and friends, and do it for mankind.
P.S.
Here's another thing that doesn't get said enough: I love you. This is the most fun I've ever had and I feel closer to the people I have met here than the vast majority of people I have to hide all of this from in real life. Stay light, have fun, and please please please take this on as more than a way to score drugs. Stand by me as we stand up for ourselves.
- Silk Road admin
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How about asking for advice from the people who use your site. For example; Paperchasing has an issue with waiting up to 25 days for a payment for international orders. Instead of jacking up the rates (and it is a rate increase for most users) change the auto-finalize routine to be variable. If a seller wants it to be shorter than standard for an order, charge him a fee for the privilege. The vendor can then choose to pass that cost on or absorb it.
What it also means is that sellers would then have an incentive to sell to people like International buyers totally inside escrow as the transaction is slower put more profitable. It's interesting that your new method takes money from the buyers, yet its vendors who are objecting to it.
And on your ebay comparison, As a reasonably large seller on there I get discounted rates from them. Ebay introduced this to ensure their large vendors stick with the site. What is SR doing to keep the top sellers on the site. Hell even the small time sellers on ebay get free $0.99 listings for a whole month occasionally.
What's the old saying... "You attract more bees with honey?"
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I think the negative reaction is because the vast majority of the scamming could be fixed without increasing rates. The forum is filled with potential solutions that have zero cost, just a few policy and code changes.
Users getting scammed aren't directly sending BTC to vendors. The users getting scammed are the ones going through escrow and then immediately finalizing. Do people order large amounts out of escrow and get scammed? Sure. Does lowering the fee for high value trades help encourage bulk orders to go into escrow? Sure.
But the people going around escrow and getting burned shouldn't be the focus of SR's efforts to clean up scamming. If you think about it, they're taking money from SR by avoiding escrow, so why not let them screw themselves? Meanwhile, the people who comprise 99% of the people who have been scammed on here are getting scammed by early finalizing. Again, a darwinistic justice in my book, but if we're to take SR's words at face value, we would have to believe he is more concerned about helping people who don't pay him than people who do pay him, rather than jump to the conclusion that he is just trying to prevent people from not paying him, and also collect more from the people already paying him.
You don't need to be a psychologist or a sociologist or a game theorist to understand people are motivated by money. When somebodies motives can be explained in such a way that reveals a financial incentive, that explanation is usually correct.
Maybe you're not full of it SR. I don't care either way; you have me hook line and sinker. Will I bitch when rates go up? Certainly. Will I stop using the site? Not unless there is an alternative.
You say you carefully considered your words...did you stop to think the users might wonder "Why is he doing this (which mathematically is clearly a rate increase, even if the increase can be made to seem small by converting percentages into dollar figures) as the first step when there are much larger issues facing the community?"
This may have gone over a lot smoother if announced with a host of sweeping changes that truly seemed motivated at protecting your consumers and vendors. Instead, nobody is able to walk away from your message thinking "Well, at least THIS will be better for me, even though it means a slightly increased cost." I would guess that for every order that will be cheaper in the new fee structure, there will be several hundred that will be more expensive. And meanwhile, the people ordering bulk out of escrow are going to continue to do so, they're going to just move it to encrypted email and their bitcoin clients.
I love you too SR. This site really is a revolution. But the devil is in the details!
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I am with you all the way, Cap'n.
With such eloquent and passionate words, it is obvious (to me anyway) that you choose your words wisely and honestly.
After spending way too much time on here, the onion universe, and cyberspace in general, I must say that as the total package of security, selection and amazing community that has formed here is quite unique, there really ain't nothing anywhere to match this level of awesome.
I must admit that I could not possibly find reliable (if any) sources for 75% of the products offered on SR, either IRL or on the net.
I can happily say that with one CFMF exception that was refunded very quickly, I have never had a negative transaction here, though I am only at (a few less than) 20 transactions. I do my homework, the seller did theirs, and I get goodies in my postbox.
(Can anyone here who has followed the guidelines, did their homework, and used common sense say otherwise?)
I can't remotely say that about Walmart or any other retailer, and I have more personal issues with morality when I shop at Walmart than I ever did on SR.
And the biggest issues have been (or are being) addressed, and I expect the overall continuous improvement to keep going.
Still more than I can say about any other place I spend my paychecks.
So thanks, SR, for all the amazing work, the incredible amount of stress you must have, the impressive tolerance, and for giving a crap.
You really are immensely appreciated, even if you don't hear it enough.
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Hey just keep this shit running, and its gravy. If you need more money just say it straight out, instead of some romantic ramble that sounds more like a politician weasling tax hikes.
I'm sure it cost money/time to make this work and thank you for that, but you've really put a hurt on guys like me that cash in @ 300$ and buy smaller amts of multiple things. The big order guys will OOE anyways.
Not my show, not my say. But thanks again.
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As i said earlier i am with you Captain, but i see lots of people complaining about scamming. Isn't there anything that you could do about new accounts with lots of orders being finalized early and people getting scammed?(i don't know the whole SR system so it's a bit harder for me to come up with a solution)
I think people are upset because the only change is in the fees and nothing else. I am sure that if you will come with one or two other fixes then the fee increase will be much more manageable.
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I confess I"m still a bit aprehensive about these changes. But I'm no expert in economics, or in any of the other skills needed to manage something like SR. So I'll trust in your judgement and hope it all works out. Honestly, this doesn't look like it'll have much of an effect on me, personally, at all. Lots of nice suggestions were made in the SotRA thread, but a lot more of the posts were just bashing. Take what you can from the former, and don't let the latter get to you.
Good luck, and fuck the haters.
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Come on people let's show a little support for this place! We're up against an enemy that has UNLIMITED resources! Do you even understand what that means? It means $100,000 means NOTHING to our enemy, and here we are complaining that the only man on the planet willing to lead this revolution is asking for an extra couple of bucks? Are you serious? So many of us are so quick to point the finger and say that Silk Road is just being greedy, and you're ignoring everything he is telling us. How come there are no other websites competing with Silk Road? I'll tell you why, it's because of trust...
Think about this: at any given point in time, how many of our bitcoins is sitting in the SR Escrow system? At any given point in time how many of our bitcoins is sitting in the SR wallet system? It's none of anyone's business, but I bet the amount is at least $200k. And at any given point in time Silk Road could just take that money and leave. Remember what happened when SumYunGai had about $10,000 worth of other people's money? That's right he took it and ran, because he didn't actually believe or care about anything but himself. And here we have an amazing administrator, Silk Road, who is holding onto all of our money and who we should be thankful for, and we're giving him shit when he raises the fee an extra 2-4% or whatever. If he says it's necessary then it's necessary end of story. And besides it's his decision to make not ours, and I personally hope he doesn't back down and decides to stand his ground.
I made it into the top 10, and let me just say, the money is GOOD! SR could take 50% tax and I'd still be making a killing. 8 months ago I was homeless and this place literally saved my life and for that I will always be loyal to this website/movement. I hope many of the other top sellers can come in and voice their opinions and give support to SR too, it's a shame that Silk should feel defensive in any way about implementing new rules.
I also want to say to Silk Road, that if he is banning Out-Of-Escrow transactions, then the simple answer would be to remove the direct transfer option on the account page. The only purpose that serves is for OOE transfers for people who don't want to pay the SR fees. Then if sellers like paperchasing or whoever want customers to send BTC directly to them in order to avoid paying the SR fees, they are welcome to do so off-site where they will have to wait an hour or so for the bitcoins to show up. That seems fair to me. You want to use the convenience and safety features of Silk Road then pay the fee. Seems simple right?
How about asking for advice from the people who use your site.
He did several times. In fact he sent out a message to all the sellers asking what percentage they were willing to pay, and he used the averages from all the sellers. Here's the exact quote:
"We also went to the Silk Road independent sellers to see what they thought an appropriate commission schedule would look like. The average response looked like this:
15% of the first $10
11% of $10 - $50
8.14% of $50 - $250
5.6% of $250 - $1000
3.7% of $1000 - $5000
We looked at past sales data and our current and future revenue needs and were able to bring these numbers down even further:
10% of the first $50
8.5% of $50 - 150
6% of $150 - 300
3% of $300 - 500
2% of $500 - 1000
1.5% for everything over $1000"
Paperchasing has an issue with waiting up to 25 days for a payment for international orders.
Sellers can still ask for early finalization for international orders. That's what I do and it's up to the buyers to choose a seller who they feel is trustworthy.
What is SR doing to keep the top sellers on the site.
The top sellers on this site are making tons of cash trust me.
people are motivated by money. When somebodies motives can be explained in such a way that reveals a financial incentive, that explanation is usually correct.
Speak for yourself.
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I just want to say that its not so strange that SR would get negative response. That is common when somebody rose the prices. I know that SR read all our post, suggestions and feature requests, they just dont stick in discussion. So dont expect to SR answer and discuss with individuals, they look bigger picture and process it as a whole.
I can ask why you started with 6,23% ? How that is calculated and why that number is not round, like to 6% or 6,5%. And I dont expect the answer from SR and also know that they had good reasons why to set 6,23%.
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SR nicely put.
Just a family discussion, sometimes gets too heated.
You have done a good thing, and we should be with you.
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damn dopeboy just got REAL on everybodys ass. well put my man.
-King
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I do want to respond to this, Im ona cell right now so I have to wait till im at a regularcomputer to do so appropriatly.
Let me say this though: SR, I got a lot of love for you too. Truly, we are brothers of the struggle. Dontever think that just because I say something that does not agree with you that I have no love *or* appreciation for you and the things you have managed to accomplish. If I didnt trust you do you think I wouold let my accountbalances reach upwards the 20k range? Ummm no. That dont mean we cant have a discussion about things that we may see differently. Hell, theres probably like 5k in my account right now... so dont think I dont trust you either. More to come, when iget to acomputter I can type on..
I just wanted to dispell any notion that I didnt have love. appreciation or trust in you right away my brother.
Paperchasing
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OK,OK,I will stay on the road,IF Dopeboy comes back from vacation early!! ;)
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Ok, now I can speak without typing from a touchscreen lol..
@SR - I simply just cannot see how any of your proposed legislation prevents scams. Please explain how stopping OOE would have prevented the following:
1) The MP->BTC scam I got took for $400 for or
2) The gummystars scam which was the most successful non-MP->BTC scam to date that I know of.
Now until I can understand that I can only believe that stopping OOE does nothing to prevent scams WHATSOEVER. Frankly, the new commission schedule penalizes the least financially capable of the buyers here the most.
See SR, although it is true, this movement is not ONLY about "freedom over tyranny" (strange that you would say that considering that your contemplating FORCING everyone to buy "protection" from you thru the escrow system) this is also about sick people that NEED THE MEDICINE THEY GET FROM HERE. Sure, some people just are using the site to obtain recreational drugs however some folks use this site to obtain medically necessary items. Most of these people will be ordering in the $10-$300 range NOT the wholesale commission range that a drug distributor business person would be ordering in. If you really got a lot of love for your community then lets figure out a way for the burden to be leveled out across the playing field.
Now, if this is about money, which we all know it is or you would not be talking about money so much, why dont you just say so? I'll back you up 100% cause like I said I'm not doing this shit for free either. I just want you to speak your truth instead of presenting false pretenses that have no apparent correlation to the actions your taking. See, I know people that are all about their money that are constantly on their grind... VERY reliable people... I love them too.. I can predict what their going to do every time because they are ABOUT THEIR MONEY and THEY SAY SO STRAIGHT UP. Simple. Please, It does everyone including yourself a dis-service to continue saying that the commission increase is to prevent scammers from operating.
Now, about the "make people finalize early that you would have done OOE with" stuff:
Problem #1: Several times I have been held hostage by people who said they would follow the early finalize rule if I would ship to them internationally. When I clicked "in-transit" they then was like "im no supposed to finalize till I get it" then I could not cancel it without them 1/5'ing me and putting nasty comments in my feedback. I was straight up blackmailed. So finally I was like look if you want something internationally, send me the BTC and get a OOE listing and ill send it to you.
Problem #2 that I have with no OOE: custom listings non-feature SUCKS MAJOR ASS. Often times people will send me a PM "i have 56.92 BTC for cocaine, make me a custom listing" Well, if you dont know, its like a guessing game to get the number to come out right cause you put your price in the list an item in and then you have to save it and then open the page to see what the FINAL price ENDS UP BEING. What a major pain in the ass. Took me forever and a day to get just one custom listing to come out exactly how much they wanted to spend so for those people I started saying just send me what you want and grab my OOE listing and Ill get it out to you.
Problem #3: What about the deals i make where im re-selling the items here? I dont think its fair to pay taxes on items you plan to resell here and collect taxes on.
Problem #4: What about the BTC's I send out to exchangers? Is that taxed?
Now then, NONE of the above issues have been addressed yet and I would like the courtesy of a response, I believe Ive generated enough commissions for Silk Road to deserve a direct response from you in this matter of mutual concern.
HERES MY SIMPLE-MINDED SOLUTION: Add a button to the account page beside the "send coins" button that says "send TAXABLE coins" that takes your commission out right when the OOE transfer is made. Dont that sound like a better idea than paying for snitches?
@dopeboy - I did not get any PM's about any of this, so far you are the only vendor I know of that has come forward and said that there was a dialogue about this commission/scammer issue prior to SR announcing it. Also, removing the user-to-user transfer option would virtually eliminate the current MP->BTC exchangers as they rely heavily upon the vendors to xfer them BTC's to trade for MP's... stopping them from operating would SEVERELY impact your business as well as SR's overall business negatively in case you did not already know. Also, although its really none of my business however since you threw it out here for open discussion, if SR could take 50% in commission of your sales then you may want to ponder the meaning of the phrase "pigs get slaughtered." Sorry, I call it like I see it and your simply overcharging people if that is truly the case with your sales. Additionally, SR would not be feeling so defensive if he had opened a dialogue about all this instead of impulsively force feeding it to us at the last minute, I think I speak for us all when I say we all support SR whether we argue amongst ourselves or not, that just how a being in a family is.
Much respect to my bro SR,
Paperchasing
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Few month ago were a poll through SR messaging system from SR admin to all vendors about commision fee and what model wold be acceptable.
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Please consider a buyer rating system. Or at least tell me why you will not?
Also this: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=8568.0
Thanks for all your work SR.
Even if I don't agree with any of your rules, I will follow them.
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Dude Paperchasing, with all due respect and in the name of reasonable discourse STOP with the "SR is the same as the government" rhetoric. This is a fucking business and if you don't like it go somewhere else! Or go buy your own server and start up your own site! SR sure as hell ain't stopping you. By all means complain on the forums if you like but the implication that SR = gov't is INSULTING to the people who are spending their LIVES IN PRISON for victimless crimes (or for that matter are now dead).
That said, I agree there need to be changes made. Changes are being made slowly and obviously the more resources SR has at his disposal, the faster changes can go into effect. If it's really that great of an economic profit to run this site, competitors WILL spring up and they WILL do it better! I, for one, trust SR at this time and hope this site remains a leader in the freedom community.
Peace,
sA
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And for the record I dont like discussing this stuff publicly either, as a matter of fact I have refrained from mentioning several important things because public disclosure would not be wise or prudent. It is you alone SR that has the power to create venues for dialogue that is private and shielded ffom LE and potential scammers scrutiny. How about a forum for SR Staff and the top 25 or 50 vendors/buyers to represent the community when contemplating changes such as this?
And how about the courtesy of more than a few days notice so people can calmly discuss the change and possibly present better ideas? After the URL change debacle this should be a no brainer. Really, thats not an outlandish request... Unless you consider this a dictatorship which is a far cry from the freedom of tyranny position you mantian Silk Roads mission is all about, wouldnt you agree?
Paperchasing
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Good luck, and fuck the haters.
Well said Horizons. I would add:
Good luck, godspeed, and fuck the haters.
I can't believe SR is getting shit for positive movements and building a defensible castle to govern this market kingdom.
SilkRoad: You are completely right this is bigger then any one person here. You are completely right that this castle may be attacked by some of the most powerful forces on the planet.
I for one applaud and support your governance. Without you and your team this would all dissolve into a shadowy market of thieves and kiddi3 p0rn vendors.
Keep up the good work, it is worthy of high praise. No pun intended. Also, remember, your most ardent and active supporters and defenders are seldom going to be the loudest on the forums. The psychotic and disillusioned tend to talk the most, but they are always going to be the ones with their heads up against the wall when it really matters.
One more time to make it stick: good luck, god speed and FUCK the haters.
EU
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See, this is what I love about this place above all else....the passion some of you have. I came here for the MDMA when it dried up locally, but I'm staying because of the community.
I'm relatively new here (7 or 8 transactions), so I'm not sure what my opinion is worth. I do know that as a buyer, I will end up absorbing the costs either way. I'm ok with that as long as the good vendors stick around. It does seem like the new structure may create a barrier to entry for new and/or low volume vendors. Maybe the increased rates shouldn't kick in right away or possibly be based on total volume (in USD) of sales? This might give those startups that are working with razor thin margins a chance to get established. At the same time, I would require that those very same vendors not be allowed to go OOE nor ask for finalizing early. If you want/need that reduced commission rate, you should use the escrow system AS INTENDED until you can prove yourself. This would also give some additional protections to buyers, especially us noobs who pretty much have no choice but to finalize early in the current model.
I don't think you can eliminate the scammers on either side completely. It's an underground market. I have no problem finalizing early for say an Ivory, Dopeboy, or Paperchasing. I'm not about to finalize early for some new vendor with 10 transactions and reviews that all look the same. Give the new vendors a break to get them operating, but keep them on a short leash in exchange for a commission break.
Just my thoughts.
SC
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Dude Paperchasing, with all due respect and in the name of reasonable discourse STOP with the "SR is the same as the government" rhetoric. This is a fucking business and if you don't like it go somewhere else! Or go buy your own server and start up your own site! SR sure as hell ain't stopping you. By all means complain on the forums if you like but the implication that SR = gov't is INSULTING to the people who are spending their LIVES IN PRISON for victimless crimes (or for that matter are now dead).
That said, I agree there need to be changes made. Changes are being made slowly and obviously the more resources SR has at his disposal, the faster changes can go into effect. If it's really that great of an economic profit to run this site, competitors WILL spring up and they WILL do it better! I, for one, trust SR at this time and hope this site remains a leader in the freedom community.
Peace,
sA
@societyagrees - Alright, I'm calling you out on that shit. Where EXACTLY did I say "SR is the same as the government?"
Apparently that is your independent conclusion that you have typed, not something I wrote, do not attempt to lay responsibility for what you wrote at my feet. And furthermore, I have numerous fallen brothers (and a few sisters) of the struggle that are in the pen just waiting for them to pop the gate, you are not the only one. It seems like you might should have known that someone that is a veritable clearinghouse of every kind of drug imaginable probably has a few comrades in prison. What the hell does our fallen comrades in prison have to do with the issues at hand here???? Telling me to go open another website does not improve matters, it only alienates us from working towards resolving these issues. I'm very loyal. Sometimes to a fault. Think I could not have opened a website already? Sheesh... right now web designers are literally starving in the streets... What, you think setting up website on TOR is really really super complicated military secret? Oh please, here's my server just idling right now waiting for me to simply ftp the Paper-Mart website in: http://kniixdldjpwaqb3v.onion
Nobody has anyone over a barrel, we're all here voluntarily. We need to work together to make this the best place it can be because [T]ogether [E]veryone [A]chieves [M]ore - TEAM. I share the vision that Silk Road has the potential to change the world, if we can manage to not implode while dealing with the awkwardness of our own phenomenal growth. I've raised some valid issues with regard to these changes, now lets talk about it. I'm not leaving SR unless I'm forced to, like I said, I'm the type that's loyal to the very end, however by no means does that mean I'm a rubber stamp "YES" man either.
@SR Admin - This is a perfect example of why we need a private forum to discuss these type of matters amongst the people whom are most familiar with the operational aspects of Silk Road and its innermost workings.
Paperchasing
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Dude Paperchasing, with all due respect and in the name of reasonable discourse STOP with the "SR is the same as the government" rhetoric. This is a fucking business and if you don't like it go somewhere else! Or go buy your own server and start up your own site! SR sure as hell ain't stopping you. By all means complain on the forums if you like but the implication that SR = gov't is INSULTING to the people who are spending their LIVES IN PRISON for victimless crimes (or for that matter are now dead).
That said, I agree there need to be changes made. Changes are being made slowly and obviously the more resources SR has at his disposal, the faster changes can go into effect. If it's really that great of an economic profit to run this site, competitors WILL spring up and they WILL do it better! I, for one, trust SR at this time and hope this site remains a leader in the freedom community.
Peace,
sA
@societyagrees - Alright, I'm calling you out on that shit. Where EXACTLY did I say "SR is the same as the government?"
Apparently that is your independent conclusion that you have typed, not something I wrote, do not attempt to lay responsibility for what you wrote at my feet. And furthermore, I have numerous fallen brothers (and a few sisters) of the struggle that are in the pen just waiting for them to pop the gate, you are not the only one. It seems like you might should have known that someone that is a veritable clearinghouse of every kind of drug imaginable probably has a few comrades in prison. What the hell does our fallen comrades in prison have to do with the issues at hand here???? Telling me to go open another website does not improve matters, it only alienates us from working towards resolving these issues. I'm very loyal. Sometimes to a fault. Think I could not have opened a website already? Sheesh... right now web designers are literally starving in the streets... What, you think setting up website on TOR is really really super complicated military secret? Oh please, here's my server just idling right now waiting for me to simply ftp the Paper-Mart website in: http://kniixdldjpwaqb3v.onion
Nobody has anyone over a barrel, we're all here voluntarily. We need to work together to make this the best place it can be because [T]ogether [E]veryone [A]chieves [M]ore - TEAM. I share the vision that Silk Road has the potential to change the world, if we can manage to not implode while dealing with the awkwardness of our own phenomenal growth. I've raised some valid issues with regard to these changes, now lets talk about it. I'm not leaving SR unless I'm forced to, like I said, I'm the type that's loyal to the very end, however by no means does that mean I'm a rubber stamp "YES" man either.
@SR Admin - This is a perfect example of why we need a private forum to discuss these type of matters amongst the people whom are most familiar with the operational aspects of Silk Road and its innermost workings.
Paperchasing
Very well said
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Well put Silk! I think you've done a great job and those people bitching and saying negative things can go fuck themselves....i love this site and ill pay whatever commission it takes to keep it up and running...
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i Love you Silk Road. i hope you get filthy rich and maybe someday we wont even need to worry about any commissions because you'll be a billionaire. hopefully the extra money is being used for multiple backup servers so no matter what happens we will always be in business. Full speed ahead cap'n! They may sink a ship, but they will not sink our entire fleet.
p.s. can you make the "withdrawal bitcoins" text box wider so that the whole bitcoin address is visible? thanks. -vic
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My word probably isn't worth much but I would like to both express my thanks to Silk Road Admin for everything that he has done so far (and will hopefully continue to do) and my support for some sort of more interactive relationship between Silk himself and us, the customers and vendors. Maybe have a sort of FDRish fireside chat once a week, a month, or whenever you have the time to tell us what's in the pipeline; maybe when you, Silk, plan on changing something float the idea to us, your brothers and sisters in this revolution, so that we can all (or barring unanimity at least majority) discuss the potential changes in a public forum and come to a mutual agreement.
I know that this particular site and forum are your babies, but the community has matured! We've been through some real shit together, trolls, scammers, LEO, etc. and we are still here! We do trust you Silk or we wouldn't be here, so please, put some trust in us as well.
Long live the revolution and God bless us all!
~MagicMan
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My word probably isn't worth much but I would like to both express my thanks to Silk Road Admin for everything that he has done so far (and will hopefully continue to do) and my support for some sort of more interactive relationship between Silk himself and us, the customers and vendors. Maybe have a sort of FDRish fireside chat once a week, a month, or whenever you have the time to tell us what's in the pipeline; maybe when you, Silk, plan on changing something float the idea to us, your brothers and sisters in this revolution, so that we can all (or barring unanimity at least majority) discuss the potential changes in a public forum and come to a mutual agreement.
I know that this particular site and forum are your babies, but the community has matured! We've been through some real shit together, trolls, scammers, LEO, etc. and we are still here! We do trust you Silk or we wouldn't be here, so please, put some trust in us as well.
Long live the revolution and God bless us all!
~MagicMan
+1 bro... except the mutual agreement part... I think we should all talk, ideas be laid out on the table, intelligent discussion for a week or two unless its an emergency situation and then SR ADMIN MAKES A FINAL DECISION after all issues have had an opportunity to have been spoken. Its the only way it can be IMO. SR has been fair about things in the past, I do trust him.
Paperchasing
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My word probably isn't worth much but I would like to both express my thanks to Silk Road Admin for everything that he has done so far (and will hopefully continue to do) and my support for some sort of more interactive relationship between Silk himself and us, the customers and vendors. Maybe have a sort of FDRish fireside chat once a week, a month, or whenever you have the time to tell us what's in the pipeline; maybe when you, Silk, plan on changing something float the idea to us, your brothers and sisters in this revolution, so that we can all (or barring unanimity at least majority) discuss the potential changes in a public forum and come to a mutual agreement.
I know that this particular site and forum are your babies, but the community has matured! We've been through some real shit together, trolls, scammers, LEO, etc. and we are still here! We do trust you Silk or we wouldn't be here, so please, put some trust in us as well.
Long live the revolution and God bless us all!
~MagicMan
+1 bro... except the mutual agreement part... I think we should all talk, ideas be laid out on the table, intelligent discussion for a week or two unless its an emergency situation and then SR ADMIN MAKES A FINAL DECISION after all issues have had an opportunity to have been spoken. Its the only way it can be IMO. SR has been fair about things in the past, I do trust him.
Paperchasing
Fair enough, in fact, probably better. Viva el camino!
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Problem #1: Several times I have been held hostage by people who said they would follow the early finalize rule if I would ship to them internationally. When I clicked "in-transit" they then was like "im no supposed to finalize till I get it" then I could not cancel it without them 1/5'ing me and putting nasty comments in my feedback. I was straight up blackmailed. So finally I was like look if you want something internationally, send me the BTC and get a OOE listing and ill send it to you.
This is a good point and one I hadn't heard raised yet. Sorry if I missed it in another thread. The system was never meant to support finalizing early, but it has developed in to a common practice and I appreciate the damage it would cause to ban it outright along with out of escrow transactions. So, for the time being, issues like this will persist. Again, we are working on a solution to this and plenty of notice will be given before changes take effect.
Problem #2 that I have with no OOE: custom listings non-feature SUCKS MAJOR ASS. Often times people will send me a PM "i have 56.92 BTC for cocaine, make me a custom listing" Well, if you dont know, its like a guessing game to get the number to come out right cause you put your price in the list an item in and then you have to save it and then open the page to see what the FINAL price ENDS UP BEING. What a major pain in the ass. Took me forever and a day to get just one custom listing to come out exactly how much they wanted to spend so for those people I started saying just send me what you want and grab my OOE listing and Ill get it out to you.
Switch to post-commission pricing on your settings page, create the listing with the price your customer wants to pay. switch back to pre-commission pricing if that's how you prefer it for your other listings or leave it as-is.
Problem #3: What about the deals i make where im re-selling the items here? I dont think its fair to pay taxes on items you plan to resell here and collect taxes on.
For now, that's how it will be, but we are also looking into treating bulk business to business transactions differently, beyond just charging less commission.
Problem #4: What about the BTC's I send out to exchangers? Is that taxed?
I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about here, but the practices of bitcoin exchangers on this site are not affected by the new policies. Again, the site was never designed to support bitcoin exchange, but since people want to use it that way we will accommodate and are presently working on a solution.
Also, you are misusing the word tax which I think is why you were accused of acting like Silk Road is a government. What you are referring to is more appropriately called a commission or broker's fee. It would be a tax if I tried to take money from you based on a transaction I wasn't involved in. You are free to sell whatever you want to whomever without my interference, but if you are going to use the Silk Road platform to meet your customers and advertise your wares, you will need to pay a commission.
Thank you everyone for your support! It feels good to get back into the dialogue here on the forums :)
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SilkRoad: I messaged on SR about funds not showing up and also why is seller registration now closed? I have been setting everything up for 2 weeks to start vending numerous products on here that have no continental supplier with a high demand and now it seems as though it's closed?
User foxymeow sent me 25 btc to my SR account so i could open my vending account and after 24hours it is still not in there (same username on SR as i use on here)
I have a bunch of samples i have prepared to mail out to people who requested it also, but there is no point in sending out free stuff if i can't open a vending account.
Can you please look into why the money is not in my account and why seller registration is closed now please?
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Thanks for the pep talk, Captain. All-aboard, full-steam ahead. Viva la revolution.
Please let us know if you need anything from the community.
I have to give Paperchasing some props for pointing out some of the inconvenience a full-on OOE ban puts on us though. The feedback leverage wielded by buyers can really put a damper on transactions. I've been blackmailed with feedback threats numerous times and while in the larger scheme of things its not really important, it still makes us venders feel violated and abused. 99% of buyers here are awesome, but I wish there was a way to hold those 1% accountable for feedback abuse.
I recommend either enabling buyer feedback or else making buyer's feedback more transparent so that I can spot an asshole by his last couple reviews and be allowed to choose whether I'm willing to deal with that.
Also, custom listings are a pain in the ass even with the post-commission pricing features. I don't really see any way around this though, I guess I'm just lazy.
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Hey Admin. I just wanna say that we may disagree on things here and there, but no matter what, you got a great thing going here. Don't ever feel unappreciated, because this is one of the best things I've ever taken part in. You, and everybody else here, have walked right up to the psychopaths in power, slapped them in the face, and said, "This is OUR life and we'll live it as WE please."
Everybody here has my respect. Oh yeah, and I love you too.
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Just wanted to say a big thank you to Silk Road for building this amazing place where free trade can blossom.
You have my full support, and I plan to be here for as long as possible.
Peace, love and purrs.
Kiki
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Problem #1: Several times I have been held hostage by people who said they would follow the early finalize rule if I would ship to them internationally. When I clicked "in-transit" they then was like "im no supposed to finalize till I get it" then I could not cancel it without them 1/5'ing me and putting nasty comments in my feedback. I was straight up blackmailed. So finally I was like look if you want something internationally, send me the BTC and get a OOE listing and ill send it to you.
This is a good point and one I hadn't heard raised yet. Sorry if I missed it in another thread. The system was never meant to support finalizing early, but it has developed in to a common practice and I appreciate the damage it would cause to ban it outright along with out of escrow transactions. So, for the time being, issues like this will persist. Again, we are working on a solution to this and plenty of notice will be given before changes take effect.
Problem #2 that I have with no OOE: custom listings non-feature SUCKS MAJOR ASS. Often times people will send me a PM "i have 56.92 BTC for cocaine, make me a custom listing" Well, if you dont know, its like a guessing game to get the number to come out right cause you put your price in the list an item in and then you have to save it and then open the page to see what the FINAL price ENDS UP BEING. What a major pain in the ass. Took me forever and a day to get just one custom listing to come out exactly how much they wanted to spend so for those people I started saying just send me what you want and grab my OOE listing and Ill get it out to you.
Switch to post-commission pricing on your settings page, create the listing with the price your customer wants to pay. switch back to pre-commission pricing if that's how you prefer it for your other listings or leave it as-is.
Problem #3: What about the deals i make where im re-selling the items here? I dont think its fair to pay taxes on items you plan to resell here and collect taxes on.
For now, that's how it will be, but we are also looking into treating bulk business to business transactions differently, beyond just charging less commission.
Problem #4: What about the BTC's I send out to exchangers? Is that taxed?
I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about here, but the practices of bitcoin exchangers on this site are not affected by the new policies. Again, the site was never designed to support bitcoin exchange, but since people want to use it that way we will accommodate and are presently working on a solution.
Also, you are misusing the word tax which I think is why you were accused of acting like Silk Road is a government. What you are referring to is more appropriately called a commission or broker's fee. It would be a tax if I tried to take money from you based on a transaction I wasn't involved in. You are free to sell whatever you want to whomever without my interference, but if you are going to use the Silk Road platform to meet your customers and advertise your wares, you will need to pay a commission.
Thank you everyone for your support! It feels good to get back into the dialogue here on the forums :)
First off let me say thank you for taking the time to address the issues I have with this... I know you got to be crazy busy.
Re: problem #1 issue: Frankly, I just didnt want to bother you with whining about some feedback thing that only happened a few times before I was like fuck that, ill just have them pay direct. As you well know, I'm not much of a whiner or problem maker around here. I do think that a "Send Commissionable Bitcoins" button would be a super easy solution and probably very easy to code in beside the "Send Bitcoins" button. And I used the wrong word for your commission, tax is not the right word at all.
Re: problem #2 issue: Ok, I see the button your talking about now, I don't know when you added that feature but that problem was driving me crazy for real. I have not tried it yet, but if you say it work I believe you.
Re: Problem #3 issue: Until this issue is resolved I will suspend selling Mitanox's and Ivory's products.
Also: We need a buyer feedback system for the vendors to post their experiences with a buyer to.. I could make a much better judgement about buyers if I read comments posted by other vendors knowing whom the vendors are. I seriously think that the vendor feedback system needs to be duplicated over to the buyers and the total BTC's they have spent with SR needs to be shown as well. A buyer that has comments from vendors like Pharmville with 23 purchases/265BTC in volume would look much better than a buyer with feedback from a non-recognizable vendor with 23 purchases/8BTC. This change would help me considerably! Also, it would be nice to be able to click an additional link that shows me all of the feedback a certain buyer has posted to the vendors they have purchased from on a separate page.
*** Please make forum for the top XX (10/25/50) number of vendors and buyers to have discussions with you!!! I do not want to PM you unless its EXTREMELY IMPORTANT because I know your busy! ***
Like I have been saying all along, I'm behind you 110% on you getting your commission. Imma get paid, so you should too. I'm also pleased to find that we are able to discuss this and you are taking the issues we bring forth onto consideration, it re-affirms my faith in what we are all trying to accomplish here.
We might fight amongst ourselves now and then, but ultimately we all stand for and support Silk Road,
Paperchasing
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Everyone wants something! Gee whiz!! When I started I was broke and scared. THERE WERE "NO FEATURES"!! I followed the guides and it worked for me. NOT perfectly. I learned and grew. Was I scared to ship a large order and wait? YES. Did it happen? YES. Im still here. Nobody finalized early!! AND OOE was almost unheard of and NEVER TRUSTED!! Even overseas was skeptical but understood and the top vendors from there has come through. AND if you are good you will be rewarded. "ITS HARD!!! EXPENSIVE!!" Yes it is, TOUGH!!!!!!
The site has gone through a myriad of changes in the short time Ive been here. I expect a lot more to come. I WANT AUDIO AND A G** DAMN LE DETECTOR!! Thats all I want. AM I ASKING TOO MUCH?? Please. Just follow the rules and stay informed. We all will be better off. And stop bitching so much.
BUYERS: LEAVE THE FEEDBACK FIELD BLANK OR DO NOTHING. EDIT LATER. EASY :) YOU'RE WELCOME.
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Paperchasing has very valid points. I don't see him being combative or arguing; simply stating his points and suggestions. However we all know this is something that is becoming bigger and bigger. We all need to unite, stay strong, and work as one big don't fuck with us Machine. I enjoy this place a great deal. The things I have learned over the last few months have been refreshing. At the end of the day all we want is peace and fairness. Without both parties buyer/seller this place will not function right.
SR I appreciate your efforts, and I am with you all the way.
I appreciate this place, and the people I have meet. I hope this new year brings us closer to our goals !
- ColdFrost
Love all my fellow members @ SR
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I WANT AUDIO AND A G** DAMN LE DETECTOR!!
-1 audio +100 LE detector
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Silk Road, please, announce ANY changes that are in your control BEFORE they are happening. I am talking about commission changes, closed seller/buyer registrations, address changes, etc.
Thanks
We ARE working on solutions to the finalizing early and bitcoin exchange scams.
That's nice to hear, I am sure most buyers won't mind paying a little extra WHEN we see that something's being done to protect us. Banning out of escrow will have zero impact on scamming.
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For what its worth- as a long time vendor here (since the beginning actually, back when less than 3000 accounts were made) i dont see what all the fuss is about.
I for one will abide by the new no OOE rules, the new fee system is perfectly fair (and should also be implemented in the "send bitcoins" button). If you really are pressed for cash or simply would rather not have 5000+ dollars sitting in escrow you can ask the buyer to finalize early. The important thing is
1) SR gets his cut
2) You get left feedback so you dont end up ripping other people off
This site is the epitome of freedom. You have poor people living in bumfuck nowhere with no connections and they can get anything they want anytime delivered right to their doorstep. This is the very future of the drug trade. No more cartels shooting people, no more traffickers raping and murdering. No more sleezy dealers shelling out 3g as eights. This site is the facebook of drugs, it (even if eventually taken down or transformed somehow) has forever changed the way business is done.
heres to you SR- may we stay online another year!
and another, and another...
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Dude Paperchasing, with all due respect and in the name of reasonable discourse STOP with the "SR is the same as the government" rhetoric. This is a fucking business and if you don't like it go somewhere else! Or go buy your own server and start up your own site! SR sure as hell ain't stopping you. By all means complain on the forums if you like but the implication that SR = gov't is INSULTING to the people who are spending their LIVES IN PRISON for victimless crimes (or for that matter are now dead).
That said, I agree there need to be changes made. Changes are being made slowly and obviously the more resources SR has at his disposal, the faster changes can go into effect. If it's really that great of an economic profit to run this site, competitors WILL spring up and they WILL do it better! I, for one, trust SR at this time and hope this site remains a leader in the freedom community.
Peace,
sA
@societyagrees - Alright, I'm calling you out on that shit. Where EXACTLY did I say "SR is the same as the government?"
Paperchasing
considering that your contemplating FORCING everyone to buy "protection"
tax tax tax tax TAXABLE
What I said was you were using rhetoric that had insulting implications, and asked you to stop. Forcing everyone to buy protection with taxes is exactly what the government does. They call this "POLICE SERVICE". This is a business that is charging a commission and no one is forcing you to pay it. You make valid points but the rhetoric makes you look silly and dramatic, at least in my eyes.
Peace,
sA
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I support the new rules/ regulations with my whole being. This place is like the community I've had dreams about. :-\
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Wow, I had no idea SR - you were right all along... everyone has made it so very clear that there was no need for me to fight for keeping prices down. I will adjust my prices accordingly with that in mind.
10% for SR, 10% for me and an additional 5% for the unappreciated time Ive spent lobbying for the buyers, the ones that have ridiculed and backstabbed me the most throughout this endeavor. Sorry I dont do adjusting percentage schediles, I was skipping class making connections in the underworld while you were taking math class so I missed that class.
So hows that for rhetoric? Like the sound of that better?
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Wow, I had no idea SR - you were right all along... everyone has made it so very clear that there was no need for me to fight for keeping prices down. I will adjust my prices accordingly with that in mind.
10% for SR, 10% for me and an additional 5% for the unappreciated time Ive spent lobbying for the buyers, the ones that have ridiculed and backstabbed me the most throughout this endeavor. Sorry I dont do adjusting percentage schediles, I was skipping class making connections in the underworld while you were taking math class so I missed that class.
So hows that for rhetoric? Like the sound of that better?
I been bitching about prices ever since I joined up. I wrote a big TL;DR a couple hours ago, but my lost my connection upon posting it, and lost it, so I am going to post another. I don't get these exorbitant prices, all replies to my questions on them ALL pointed out the SR fees, shipping costs, etc, and now those fees are going up. I even noticed the schwag is now more than street price? WTF? Off I go to TL;DR land.
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I think the negative reaction is because the vast majority of the scamming could be fixed without increasing rates. The forum is filled with potential solutions that have zero cost, just a few policy and code changes.
Users getting scammed aren't directly sending BTC to vendors. The users getting scammed are the ones going through escrow and then immediately finalizing. Do people order large amounts out of escrow and get scammed? Sure. Does lowering the fee for high value trades help encourage bulk orders to go into escrow? Sure.
But the people going around escrow and getting burned shouldn't be the focus of SR's efforts to clean up scamming. If you think about it, they're taking money from SR by avoiding escrow, so why not let them screw themselves? Meanwhile, the people who comprise 99% of the people who have been scammed on here are getting scammed by early finalizing. Again, a darwinistic justice in my book, but if we're to take SR's words at face value, we would have to believe he is more concerned about helping people who don't pay him than people who do pay him, rather than jump to the conclusion that he is just trying to prevent people from not paying him, and also collect more from the people already paying him.
You don't need to be a psychologist or a sociologist or a game theorist to understand people are motivated by money. When somebodies motives can be explained in such a way that reveals a financial incentive, that explanation is usually correct.
Maybe you're not full of it SR. I don't care either way; you have me hook line and sinker. Will I bitch when rates go up? Certainly. Will I stop using the site? Not unless there is an alternative.
You say you carefully considered your words...did you stop to think the users might wonder "Why is he doing this (which mathematically is clearly a rate increase, even if the increase can be made to seem small by converting percentages into dollar figures) as the first step when there are much larger issues facing the community?"
This may have gone over a lot smoother if announced with a host of sweeping changes that truly seemed motivated at protecting your consumers and vendors. Instead, nobody is able to walk away from your message thinking "Well, at least THIS will be better for me, even though it means a slightly increased cost." I would guess that for every order that will be cheaper in the new fee structure, there will be several hundred that will be more expensive. And meanwhile, the people ordering bulk out of escrow are going to continue to do so, they're going to just move it to encrypted email and their bitcoin clients.
I love you too SR. This site really is a revolution. But the devil is in the details!
This! Out of escrow should be highly discouraged! there are many well established vendors on here who now realise they can only sell small quantitys to keep a high rank (95+) and then once per say, 50 transactions, rip somebody off for $500+. The system has a flaw, and it is the weighing of transactions. High cost should trump low cost.
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Wow, I had no idea SR - you were right all along... everyone has made it so very clear that there was no need for me to fight for keeping prices down. I will adjust my prices accordingly with that in mind.
10% for SR, 10% for me and an additional 5% for the unappreciated time Ive spent lobbying for the buyers, the ones that have ridiculed and backstabbed me the most throughout this endeavor. Sorry I dont do adjusting percentage schediles, I was skipping class making connections in the underworld while you were taking math class so I missed that class.
So hows that for rhetoric? Like the sound of that better?
The problem is it's not rhetoric, it's the truth.
If you are a buyer you must realize the cost will be passed on to you/me.
Paperchasing you are correct, I'm bending over and getting ready.
The problem is add the BTC bullshit it's gonna push people over the edge.
Again, what I'm I getting for "protection" by paying these fees?
Stops scamming how?
Again with full respect for all of your opinions.
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Glad to be apart of this experiment, times are hard! the poorer you are the harder it is to get meds legal. If i were a wealthy house wife i could get all the benzo's i wanted or almost any drug for the matter. The real scam is Big Pharma! Oh the hypocrisy! I really really really want this to work, the LI to go away and do something better with there time instead of stepping on the slaves neck, and the fucking no good for nothing, will do anything for a dime, piece of shit scammers ( buyers and sellers) Long live SR, i love SR and I'm glad its here!........peace....:L
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There's an Old Saying that will always be Valid. "Put your Money where your Mouth is." To back up your words with actions when it comes to Money.
I Love & Dig this Place. I dont have to drive across the river or Tracks and walk into a room full of Paranoid Tweeks and then walk out feeling Lucky cause I just Bought my Drug of choice at lower Quantity than I paid as well as Lower Quality.
Bring it on SR. Charge me..I will likely Never afford to be a Vendor, but I want to be a Consumer here..no doubt.
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Wow, I had no idea SR - you were right all along... everyone has made it so very clear that there was no need for me to fight for keeping prices down. I will adjust my prices accordingly with that in mind.
10% for SR, 10% for me and an additional 5% for the unappreciated time Ive spent lobbying for the buyers, the ones that have ridiculed and backstabbed me the most throughout this endeavor. Sorry I dont do adjusting percentage schediles, I was skipping class making connections in the underworld while you were taking math class so I missed that class.
So hows that for rhetoric? Like the sound of that better?
The problem is it's not rhetoric, it's the truth.
If you are a buyer you must realize the cost will be passed on to you/me.
Paperchasing you are correct, I'm bending over and getting ready.
The problem is add the BTC bullshit it's gonna push people over the edge.
Again, what I'm I getting for "protection" by paying these fees?
Stops scamming how?
Again with full respect for all of your opinions.
That IS the problem, but it SHOULDN'T be! I think there's a better economic system. As a businessperson, one needs to assume the liability of advertising. Advertising is NOT the consumers cost, it is what BRINGS the consumer. By having a seller's account, good feedback, and strong history in the forums, then you now have a HUGE market. As I seen it, most pricing was already exorbitant, save for a few reasonable sellers, who now have also raised their prices. Making the consumer eat that cost is pure greed. Read my TL;DR for more info: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=8819.msg80116#msg80116
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Welllll, if OOE and early finalize are no longer allowed to protect consumer/vendor, then why do most listing still have rules about having to finalize early for under a certain number of buyer stats?
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Welllll, if OOE and early finalize are no longer allowed to protect consumer/vendor, then why do most listing still have rules about having to finalize early for under a certain number of buyer stats?
OOE and early finalize is not the same thing. OOE is banned as transaction is not evident and SR have not his share (fee).
Early finalize is still allowed by SR clearification.
Just to be clear, no mention of banning finalizing early was made. We recognize the cash-flow needs of vendors and are working to address these needs while preventing scams arising from finalizing early. At this point though, while we advise buyers to avoid finalizing early at all costs, vendors are still free to request it.
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thank you mseller
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@SR
I will simply state that while we were able to adjust our pricing to absorb half of the comission change and only passing half to our customers cut things aweful close but we were able to stay close to our intended price point.
My objection to this is that our target market segment is the new users who may not have much bitcoin or easy access and familliarity with it, so this specifically hurts vendors like us the hardest. While I can appreciate that it costs more to support more users I don't think that the new comission plan is low enough at the low amounts, after all this actually hurts SR as much as any vendor.
The majority of transactions I would expect to see on SR are going to be the SMALLER ones therefore the greater volume of SMALLER packages with a lower price would yeild you more profit while the larger ones would yeild less volume but higher profit per sale so your model in effect works against yourself and the new user market segment in general. If this is intended to slow down SR's growth then it is certain to help.
Thanks,
SecuritySolution
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This OOE ban is hard to swallow, especially for B2B. As an OVDB guy making the transition to SR, I gotta say, *forcing* the use of escrow chaffs my ass. I didn't come here looking for this petty boutique action. I want a trusted vendor I can rely on to supply sheets and ounces at a good price. At OVDB, I had that: someone I could trust enough to send $2k and rely on to deliver without even having to worry about tracking and signing for packages and all that shit. As many have pointed out, banning OOE doesn't stop scamming. There's no way in hell a vendor's gonna send me an order like that without getting paid up front. Either via OOE or FE, I still have to risk getting ripped off.
However, after giving it some considerable thought, banning OOE may still be the best course of action for two reasons. One, it at least forces all scamming into the public review of the escrow system. And two, at least one tangible benefit of all scam transactions will occur: at least SR will have gotten a cut, and can apply that revenue towards future solutions. It won't eliminate fraud, but it at least applies additional pressure against it. Banning B2B OOE between trusted vendors still don't seem right, though.
As for SR ramping up the revenue, IMO this is a good thing. We can have a lot more confidence in an enterprise employing several full time sysadmins, security engineers, programmers and administrative personnel.
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Welllll, if OOE and early finalize are no longer allowed to protect consumer/vendor, then why do most listing still have rules about having to finalize early for under a certain number of buyer stats?
Both OOE and "finalize early" are tricks that allow vendors to rip sellers off. Either one requires the buyer to send cash/bitcoins and merely hope for delivery. If we want to remove the seller/scammers, they should both be banned.
Selling OOE harms buyers, but it also it harms SR (since he gets no 10% cut), so he has banned it. Requiring buyers to "finalize early" hurts buyers just as much, but doesn't harm SR (since he gets his cut -- even if the deal turns out to be a scam), so he has let it go on for now for now.
If this place wants to establish a fair buyer/seller equilibrium, it will ban not only OOE, but also any sort of "must finalize early" type sellers.
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Both OOE and "finalize early" are tricks that allow vendors to rip sellers off. Either one requires the buyer to send cash/bitcoins and merely hope for delivery. If we want to remove the seller/scammers, they should both be banned.
Selling OOE harms buyers, but it also it harms SR (since he gets no 10% cut), so he has banned it. Requiring buyers to "finalize early" hurts buyers just as much, but doesn't harm SR (since he gets his cut -- even if the deal turns out to be a scam), so he has let it go on for now for now.
If this place wants to establish a fair buyer/seller equilibrium, it will ban not only OOE, but also any sort of "must finalize early" type sellers.
As a buyer, I can't agree with that. Legitimate vendors are prone to attack by reverse scammers just as much if not more so than we, as buyers, are prone to vendor scams. Think about it. If you were a big dope dealer, are you gonna send someone a bunch of dope and just hope they pay you? Fuck no. You get paid first, then you deliver.
Sure the escrow idea works for the boutique market business, < $100. A vendor might risk delivering 5 - 10 hits of LSD or up to a gram of E up front at a hefty retail price. Exactly like we see is the most common transaction on SR. But there's no way in hell these guys are going to risk sending you a sheet or an oz without payment up front. Not unless there's been some serious level of trust established over time. They would be stupid to do so. You want real, full on escrow, it's gotta go both ways. You gotta middle man the coin AND the dope. And that's not gonna happen. SR might as well buy up all the dope and be the damn vendor, lol.
The way this is supposed to work is the buyer takes the risk. He either gets his shit or he doesn't. And he reports the results so that if he's been ripped off, everyone else knows not to trust this vendor. And if he got proper, he lets everyone know this vendor is legit. Unfortunately, this is the ideal arrangement. It's as good as it gets. The reality is a little more complicated because you have more complex levels of scamming on both sides of the fence. Apparently good buyers who occasionally lie about not receiving a shipment when they actually did, and apparently good vendors who occasionally rip off buyers, usually who are new to the community, whose calls of "scammer" might be portrayed as the rantings of a reverse scammer. Then there's the vendors who build up a lot of reputation, then take payments for as long as they can and just stop delivering until their shits called out and someone would just have to be stupid to send them any more money. Every now and then, God sends us an angel who actually believes in the liberation of the minds of the masses, who actually believes in karma and has no ill will or bad intentions towards his loving followers, who takes small profits to give good deals, relying instead on massive volume to make bank, and he can do that because he's either getting direct from the manufacturer, no other middleman, or he actually is the manufacturer. And all the other vendors hate him and conspire to destroy him until eventually this kindhearted soul trusts the wrong person and he gets snitched out and ends up dead or in prison for the rest of his life.
So, no. You can't ban finalizing early. Banning OOE, while it does chaff the ass as an infringement upon our freedom, does have more residual benefit for the community than not banning OOE. It doesn't prevent fraud, but it does at least apply some pressure against it.
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Higher commissions are for the best. Silk Road is really making a thin profit margin, on slow days as little as $2,000 and on a few lucky days a week $3,000 - $4,000. There isnt a whole lot you can do with $14,000 a month. He really needs this money and I would be happy to pay even more.
FUCK YEA SILK ROAD RULES
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Higher commissions are for the best. Silk Road is really making a thin profit margin, on slow days as little as $2,000 and on a few lucky days a week $3,000 - $4,000. There isnt a whole lot you can do with $14,000 a month. He really needs this money and I would be happy to pay even more.
FUCK YEA SILK ROAD RULES
:o :o :o
SR has 400 trans daily! $20 worth transaction average, $1600 daily and 48k a month. And that is only IF transaction worth $20.
But I dont mind, LET THEM MORE.
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Closer to 4000 transactions in the last week. I'd guess $100 average. I'd guess an average of 6-8& commission. That's $24k - $32k a week.
Maybe more, maybe less. But at $20k a week or more, with 52 weeks a year, that's a cool million a year...at current levels. It's still growing.
Good for SR. Hope they have a good way to deal with all that money.
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I cannot believe the amount of people up in arms over this commission and they have the hide to suggest greed.
Any project like this needs capital. I find most people who have never run a business fail to see the running costs involved. I am sure SR has a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes that costs shitloads of money.
Anyway...one thing I have learned in life is you will always get the complainers... whether they feel genuinely miss treated or have some other agenda, and then on the other hand you get the people that recognize the value of something.
As for scamming... How the fuck does this fall on SR's shoulders???
SR set up the platform, it is up to YOU to use your noggins(head) as buyers.
As for sellers getting scammed, finalise early works, its not fool proof but the majority of non scamming buyers will be more than happy to pay up front.
Love your work SR....X
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if you have a problem with SR's cut make your own marketplace. but chances are you will raise rates too
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Closer to 4000 transactions in the last week. I'd guess $100 average. I'd guess an average of 6-8& commission. That's $24k - $32k a week.
Maybe more, maybe less. But at $20k a week or more, with 52 weeks a year, that's a cool million a year...at current levels. It's still growing.
Good for SR. Hope they have a good way to deal with all that money.
I placed two orders that were 2 hours short of being exactly 7 days apart and in that time there were 4982 orders in that seven days. And this with the listings still below pre holiday levels as I see more and more sellers coming back from their holiday break so you can expect that sales number to continue to rise so that is an average of over 700 transaction per day and will probably exceed 800 when all the sellers are back and fully restocked.
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This OOE ban is hard to swallow, especially for B2B. As an OVDB guy making the transition to SR, I gotta say, *forcing* the use of escrow chaffs my ass. I didn't come here looking for this petty boutique action. I want a trusted vendor I can rely on to supply sheets and ounces at a good price. At OVDB, I had that: someone I could trust enough to send $2k and rely on to deliver without even having to worry about tracking and signing for packages and all that shit. As many have pointed out, banning OOE doesn't stop scamming. There's no way in hell a vendor's gonna send me an order like that without getting paid up front. Either via OOE or FE, I still have to risk getting ripped off.
There are vendors here that will send $2k+ product without seeing a dime up front. Its a beautiful thing and a trust I totally respect. If it is inconceivable for you to shaft a vendor even when you know you could quite easily, it will not take long to build this trust with a vendor.
However, after giving it some considerable thought, banning OOE may still be the best course of action for two reasons. One, it at least forces all scamming into the public review of the escrow system. And two, at least one tangible benefit of all scam transactions will occur: at least SR will have gotten a cut, and can apply that revenue towards future solutions. It won't eliminate fraud, but it at least applies additional pressure against it. Banning B2B OOE between trusted vendors still don't seem right, though.
As for SR ramping up the revenue, IMO this is a good thing. We can have a lot more confidence in an enterprise employing several full time sysadmins, security engineers, programmers and administrative personnel.
+10
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I just want to say thank you to Silk Road for all your hard work and ideology. I am with you. Brothers in arms. I second everything you have to say as well as Dopeboy's post on the first page of this thread. I will do everything I can to do my part. Cheers.
-TB
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I also would like to say how amazing Silk Road is and would support anything that concerns its growth :)
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SR you should spend some of your cut on buying installs for a massive botnet
so we can hit back at the enemy should anything happen.
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SR you should spend some of your cut on buying installs for a massive botnet
so we can hit back at the enemy should anything happen.
Who is this enemy?
And yes thank you Silk Road for EVERYTHING. This site would not be here if it were not for your ambition and dedication to the site. As I buyer I understand if rates must rise. If things don't work out it isn't the end of the road, sometimes you just gotta experiment to find the sweet spot. But I do think there should be a Silk Road..blog, if you will, detailing future updates and propositions.
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I'm on your side here. There's a lot of good things happening here, and I think it should continue. Make it bigger! Stronger! It will take work, but so many people have stepped forward and proven their worth and loyalty already. These things auger well, I should think.
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There's still plenty of room for profit. Problem is it may hurt small-time sellers, but without this site they wouldn't be able to make any money on it anyway.
When the "war" comes though, silk, you better fuckin win it. Otherwise these folks are gonna wonder where the hell their money went. :)
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DPR, I couldn't agree more with what you have written in your post. People need to realize that while Silk Road is up and running and safe for now, at some stage into the future it's going to require a huge injection of funds to enable yourself and your team to update and upgrade the site to protect us against unwanted intruders and any cyber attacks. Myself, and I'm sure many other buyers/sellers on this wonderful site, would be more than happy to pay a little extra on future orders knowing the extra money raised is being put back into the site to ensure we retain our anonymity and the freedom to browse and buy what we want. Thank you DPR.
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I would pay your fees in massages and blow jobs if that's what it took. This is from a straight guy in a long term relationship.
thanks for all you do and keep doing it. regardless of your motivation for being here, i'm glad you are and glad the community is.
down with the haters, bump the circlejerks!
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Just joined a few days ago but I think anything you guys decide needs to be done is fair game. I think we are all just happy to have and know about this hidden gem. This is a whole new level for people to have access to these products at their fingertips with a truly free marketplace. Live long and Prosper SR! I'm moving at the moment so can't order yet but you can believe as soon as I get where I'm headed I will be hitting the vendors up like crazy! Thanks for all your hard work on keeping this site going, its truly the future... :)
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DPR this needs to be stickied. Seriously.
You ever need anything from me I'm here. The people sending hate and shit are disgruntled greedy bastards who are highly un-eductated and don't know their head from their ass. I have an idea of what you might do with the money you receive which if I'm correct in my theories I fully condone and respect you to the fullest.
Long Live SR.
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RV