Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: Cgault on November 27, 2011, 06:19 pm
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This post is the summation of a long term trend of discussion concerning the Escrow system. Many of us frequent, honest buyers have had our first bad experiences, and some less experienced newer folks have had a multiple rips on Out of Escrow (OOE) transactions.
"I, Charlines Gault, a member-buyer on Silk Road for more than 5 months, hereby pledge to use the escrow system for all of my SR transactions, and I pledge to not finalize any order early for any reason. I will bring all delivery disputes and other issues to the standard resolution process provided by Silk Road Admins. I also pledge to keep all of my forum postings factual and civil, regarding any vendor that is in a pending process of resolution between myself and the vendor."
I will not indulge myself or the community on the philosophy of escrow, other than the fact that it exists and existed for a long time in this and other trading forums - ad nausea, etc, etc. I am no spring chicken, over 50 yo, and I saw the writing on the wall as soon as I lost my first 80 bucks or so from DQB, and then from Serious Sam. That's not a bad track record out of 50 total transacts over 5 months.
So, here is the bottom line - I am asking all - ALL - buyers to Pledge to use Escrow as if it was a sacred vow. If we buyers unite and take a committed stance on the use of escrow in all transactions, we will have most of the sanity back her on SR in a few weeks or a month, tops.
We have the money, we have the power, and I for one, will never conduct another transaction outside of the escrow system. And guess what? I don't have to, I never had to, I was just impatient in two cases, and the sellers had a seemingly good line of feedback - but, on closer examination, and with ever growing thread count, we had all the proof we needed. Unnecessary!!!!!
Therefore, notice that there are vendors that actually endorse the escrow system (Paperchasing, PartOfTheDance, many others), and guess what? Escrow does not hurt any vendor, as SR allows hedging. Liquidity may be an issue with a marginal vendor with short reserves, but guess what.?
Escrow funds are like money in the bank - please, for the reliable vendors, dont jump on me here - you know there is a real problem brewing, and I for one, as a frequent buyers, am flabbergasted that the SR GM has not stepped in and disemboweled any vendor for asking for OOE transactions. I think that should be a policy. If you are a well proven and reliable vendor, and you have regulars, and you need liquidity - by all means make a private arrangement for an early release of the funds. I wish I could persuade our most beloved vendors to please consider escrow as sacred as your "your holy cow of choice goes here), but there are exigencies in the real world. But, as a policy, I truly wish there was a firm rule that any vendor who makes out of escrow or early finalize a requirement for orders - I would want SR to take that vendor to task by sidelining them, fining, or de-listing.
I promised that I would not philosophize - but there, I did it. Now the pledge: I ask all of the buyers to take a pledge by copying and pasting the words below, with your real SR buyers handle - if we can get a BIG RESPONSE - it will put the fear of Moloch into the less than honest or lazy / dishonest vendors. Then, carry through with the pledge in action. Stick to escrow, as there will be, always, honest vendors that will honor the system as it was intended to operate. Scam buyers are always easier to detect, their damage is smaller, and the stats will always tell.
"I, Charlines Gault, a member-buyer on Silk Road for more than 5 months, hereby pledge to use the escrow system for all of my SR transactions, and I pledge to not finalize any order early for any reason. I will bring all delivery disputes and other issues to the standard resolution process provided by Silk Road Admins. I also pledge to keep all of my forum postings factual and civil, regarding any vendor that is in a pending process of resolution between myself and the vendor."
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its not established, trustworthy buyers like yourself that vendors are worried about, its the new buyers who have no intentions other to scam and try to get free drugs that makes vendors want to go out of escrow / finalize early. Sure, vendors may lose a few sales using this policy, but if having an OOE policy in place also discourages potential scammers, then it is well worth the peace of mind and hassle.
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"I, Charlines Gault, a member-buyer on Silk Road for more than 5 months, hereby pledge to use the escrow system for all of my SR transactions, and I pledge to not finalize any order early for any reason. I will bring all delivery disputes and other issues to the standard resolution process provided by Silk Road Admins. I also pledge to keep all of my forum postings factual and civil, regarding any vendor that is in a pending process of resolution between myself and the vendor."
Did I do it right?
No but seriously, I do agree that there should be an escrow requirement for all those who do not have over at least '3' successful transactions. For those under three, I think forcing an early finalize is still fair. There are plenty of us who have over three successful transactions, so it shouldn't be a problem with legitimate vendors. And those with under three successful transactions will quickly reach three, if dealing with legitimate vendors--which most people should be smart enough to research.
On that note, however, I think there should be a very blatant "YOU CAN BE SCAMMED IF YOU DO NOT DO SELLER RESEARCH"-type post on the front page of the SR marketplace, with a very clear link to the "rumor mill" forum. I think many people simply don't even know that a SR forum exists.
I also personally believe that the rumor mill should be split into categories for vendors--just as the marketplace is. Cannabis category, Stimulant category, MDMA category, Psychedelic category etc. Through doing something like this, it'll be substantially easier for people--especially those not very educated in forums--to find information on those vendors they're looking to research. Vendors should also put a direct link at the top of all of their marketplace ads, as well as their profile, to their vendor feedback thread.
I feel like all of this is basic stuff to make the system a lot easier and safer--is it not? Wouldn't take a huge amount of effort.
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Respectfully disagree. I'm an avid buyer and I respect my vendors enough to do what they wish. If the vendor wants it this way then so be it. You don't have to buy from them, and they don't have to keep selling on here for us. A lot of them lose / break even, but are supporting a great system. I support escrow for much of every other circumstance, with unknowns.
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Respectfully disagree. I'm an avid buyer and I respect my vendors enough to do what they wish. If the vendor wants it this way then so be it. You don't have to buy from them, and they don't have to keep selling on here for us. A lot of them lose / break even, but are supporting a great system. I support escrow for much of every other circumstance, with unknowns.
If the vendors keep their normal profitable price, but their SR price is just their normal price+SR's escrow price they aren't exactly losing money. They're getting the exact same amount of money as they would otherwise. If they lower prices on SR more than they'd like, well, then it's just free-market capitalism at work. The whole "you don't have to buy from them" thing is true, however solely by having less regulation it opens up the gates to more scammers infecting the community. Don't take this to the extreme thinking I'm saying "regulate everything," but I do believe there are a few small steps we can put into place to at least make vendor reviews more readily available--thereby allowing people to make their own choices through others' personal experiences.
Such as in my above post.
I personally refuse to buy from any vendor without a very good amount of both forum feedback and sales numbers, and research every vendor substantially on both their service and their product before deciding to buy. So far I have yet to be scammed.
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also one of the problems of allowing newusers to finalize early was shown recently with the scammers on SR. They would finalize early and leave a 5/5, receive their package, then go back and change the feedback to 1/5 and demand free product/money/whatever. and because this avoided SR resolution, the seller was forced to either give in to the scammers demands or face getting a 1/5 feedback. combine this with the fact the scammers were keeping all their orders small, vendors would rather say fuck it and give the scammer 10btcs or a free package, than take a hit on their ratings. Also since none of these transactions are going to resolution, the scammer keeps his account looking spotless, with no refunds, while he can move on to the next vendor to pull the same scam.
Yeah...That's fucked. Seriously, scammers are sacks of shit. If you can't afford the drugs don't try and get them, or find a way to afford them like making a contribution to the community around you. (Aka, selling drugs) It's just a shame some people are such pussies. Such flaming, raging, useless pussies. I've got a very strong opinion towards scammers after being robbed myself, and I personally feel as if anyone who scams or robs someone else solely for personal gain deserves to be shot.
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I have asked one respected vendor to allow me to finalize after receiving orders, and he agreed. Order was placed.
Another one declined, I understand and respect his policy, so now I'm still undecided, though I really want his product.
In the end I think I should stick with escrow no matter what. I believe I deserve it.
In both cases I've told them that I am good buyer known by other respected sellers in SR.
I think the more we communicate and interact here in the forums, the more sellers get to know buyers and vice versa, thus avoiding any potential problem like scamming and low feedback blackmail.
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I like Dopeboy's profile:
DO NOT FINALIZE EARLY! Wait until you receive your order successfully!
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Bravo Cgault!! Standing applause for your courage, taking a stand and making a Vow. I just saw this and if I was'nt so stoned at this moment I would personally make a similar Vow as a Buyer. SR started as a place where burden of proof was on Buyer. It's time to be able to put Balance of Power and Obligation on the Buyer now. If your a Scamming, Thieving, Ingrate you are daily Creating not only bad Kharma for yourself, but Ensuring you will Also get Fucked down the Road when you least expect it. Right now I'm just a Buyer and I want vendors that can see in black and white how I conduct myself when buying someones Fruit of their Love and Labor. I say Rank Buyers and make it a Privilege to be able to be part of this great venture. When a cool place starts to be over run by Thugs and Riff-Raff, that will be it's Demise.
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I see the fork: Scammer buyers and scammer sellers - Two worlds. Same bullshit. Escrow is supposed to address both because a seller knows his ship / receive rate overall, and the resolution process is supposed to provide some seller protection - I think that SR could go even further in seller protection (Note, I don't sell here so I am guessing some things), by asking for Proof of Delivery. Yeah, scammer sellers could send bogus packs, but who would do that for all the effort, exposure.
Bottom line for me: 50 orders, 11% refund rate, and 0% auto fin - and, that 11% is not my real refund rate - two sellers inexplicably canceled without a peep - and I got the money back, but never requested. I suggested to SR that a vendor initiated cancellation and refund not be placed on the buyer's stats....but nooooooo. I figure my average buy is 175 ish x 50, do the math. I am a good repeat customer to my go to guys. I am a regular, 30-45 day purchaser. I don't carp about prices, I don't drive my boyz batshit with bullshit. I pay.
And I will keep paying to my guys. Also, I am not saying that this advocacy campaign for the stipulating of absolute escrow is anti-vendor - we are all smart enough to know (intuitively), that there are shitheads on the buy and sell sides. However, I want to not even feel one whit that I or anyone has to apologize for insisting on escrow. And that's my thing now, because that was SR's intent - buyer protection. Now, enhanced seller protection against dishonest buyers should be another thread - why? These are two distinct issues with different remedies.
A scam buyer gets a real package and claims no receipt or poor quality. Now, instead of me answering on the issue of seller remedies.....how about a seller (one of the well known vendors) chime in. Or not. It may be irrelevant in the context of the buyers escrow.
I will of course state the obvious: I do not want my vendors to be ripped off, but I still want my transactions to be in escrow.
Hey, here is a good question: let's say I have transacted a dozen times successfully in escrow with a given vendor - at that point, we have proven each other - what purpose escrow. I used to release funds for a certain vendor all the time before I got that goods, because he always sent me the tracking. I didn't consider it "early release", I just finalized it because I was getting my PM with the Tracking number, and I was logged in already, and with Tor being occasionally flaky....I just hit the finalize button for our mutual convenience.
What say the parliment?
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I PLEDGE to STAY IN ESCROW! As a buyer i have 15+ successful transactions. And unfortunatly even buyers you have had much success with in the past can decide to cash out with one last round of early finalizations and make out with a huge chunk of cash.
Idk i just think people need to stop doing the out of escrow thing. Like with that Joelson fellow selling H, i hate to say it but alot of the ppl who finalized early with him brought that lose of cash upon themselves, i mean jesus guys, i seen like 15 ppl at least who finalized early with really no feedback aside from 1 guy who just happened to live in turkey as well lol.
I dont mean to sound like an asshole but with sellers who want you to go out of escrow, if you see someone finalized early and said they will update when recieved, then WAIT!! Dont go and do the same thing, its bad enough one person losing a bunch of money but person after person lining up to hand cash over to some sketchy dude standing in a dark ally saying yeah i can get you some bomb shit, just gimme the 100$ bill first and ill be right back. I dont feel comfortable doing that in real life with people i know.
So plz come on guys, new sellers with no feedback(or 1 or 2 that look sketchy) should not ever be finalized early with. I think SR should institute a policy where a vender has to have 10 positive feedback before being able to let people finalize early. Ugh this issue just really irks me.
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I also Agree with Dillinger. Fiscusfucker was another example of a Vendor who had a decent rep, claimed he was getting out of the Opiate Biz and then Demanded Early Finalizing cause he was losing Money? How many Buyers got Fucked by him as he bailed? Had it not been for several postings by ever vigilant SR Posters, I would have fallen for it hook, line and sinker.
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As a well regarded (we believe) vendor on SR, Ben and I have actually come up with a plan to stop the scammers and presented it formally to SR. As we believe that C. Gault has the basics of the problem correctly defined and the appropriate parameters set, all that's left is to name the thing that needs to be done. In our 15 years on drug forums we have only ever seen one tactic that got rid of scammers: starve them to death.
It will work even better on SR than it has on any previous forum because on SR getting a sellers account *costs money*.
The last time I looked, which granted was a while back, a sellers account was about $150. Given that the average size order a new vendor with no or little feedback gets is only $30-50 there is a simple solution to this problem: every person who gets scammed has to send a pm immediately to SR with the heading "SCAM NOTIFICATION: " followed by the sellers name. Once SR gets three of these, even before he has fully investigated even the first complaint, he needs to freeze that sellers account. All of it. No orders in or out, no BTC in or out, flat out fucking nothing in or out.
The scamming seller doesn't stand a chance against that system properly implemented and carried through by the buyers who get scammed. He can't make a profit, unless some dodo head has sent him $500 up front for the "drug deal of the century". And so he moves back to OP or Topix or whatever other hole he crawled up from to gather the much lower hanging fruit.
On the issue of escrow, we have a very simple policy: if you are in ANY way uncomfortable with finalizing early, don't do it. Take all the protections provided you by the escrow system here at SR, it is part of the core group of tenants and benefits that exist here. C. Gault also said "If you are a well proven and reliable vendor, and you have regulars, and you need liquidity - by all means make a private arrangement for an early release of the funds" and having gone through the initial stages of selling here we can tell you that it is that liquidity that is the make or break point for most vendors. You *have to* build up trust with a core group of people who won't take 7+ days to finalize their orders or you will never be able to replenish your stock in time to keep in stock for the next orders. Keep in mind too: we vendors can't just call up Drugs R Us and get what we want any time we want it. Many times we get asked "I got it, you want it, pay now" and if we can't pay RIGHT THAT MINUTE we don't get the goods. and that's that.
While we haven't yet made an operating profit here at SR, we are much better capitalized than when we started and the liquidity issue is not as acute as it was in the beginning. But if you want to see more and varied vendors coming on board *and staying on board* then some people will have to pay up front, finalize early, or whatever you want to call it so that vendor can survive the first 90 days until they get well known enough to get bigger and better orders, more frequent orders, and some real cash flow going.
I don't mind admitting that we are the vendor who has refused Mito an escrow order, but that is because Mito is an out of the USA buyer and has nothing to do with the escrow system per se. Our sellers page clearly states that the responsibility of delivery for foreign orders is with the buyer, not us, and the buyer finalizing when the order ships is simply the tangible acknowledgement of that shifting of responsibility at the time of departure and not the time of arrival.
I am deeply saddened every time (and it happens almost every day) that a buyer pm's me and says they want to order but they've ordered once or twice already and been ripped off one or both times. I know what they want to hear: that our feedback is true and unadultered and we really will do as good a job for them as we do for all those people who wrote all those nice things about us. And I tell them that. And they get their order on time and intact and now they can start to have the SR experience they were supposed to have right from the beginning. We don't have any policy about brand new buyers, we ship 0/0 folks every day without problems. I even tell them we're honored that they picked us for their first shipment, and we mean it: they had 200 choices and they chose us. We feel like the Belle of the Ball. :)
BTW, we recently drastically changed the way we process overseas orders and everyone is really pleased with the results. Now, instead of having to pm and get a shipping quote we've just taken an average and allowed the buyer to pick their shipping choice like any other item. As soon as their order appears I mark it "in transit" and pm them to finalize, once they do we pack and ship their order. The buyers are happy because it's taken 2-4 days out of the order-shipment timeline, we're happy because it's much less pm's to deal with, and everything runs smooth as silk, so doing an overseas order is now just as easy as doing a domestic one. WITH ONE BIG EXCEPTION: I don't know how other vendors handle it, but we give our foreign buyers something very valuable in return for taking the responsibility of receipt. Ben can pack a domestic order, having now done so many, in 10-12 minutes, no sweat. Each and every foreign order, whether it's $30 of M S Contins or $900 of OC-40's gets the same super stealthy treatment. And that takes him about 45 minutes to put together properly. So we make a huge time investment in each and every foreign order we take so we can honestly feel we've done absolutely everything we can to make sure that order gets to the buyer unmolested. Stealth is expensive: in materials and in time, but that's our commitment to our foreign buyers: we will do everything we can to make sure you get your pack because you paid for it. Period.
The last thing I want to make public is the incident that made it so that I would no longer bend the rules for someone like Mr. or Ms. Mito. A guy sent me a pm wanting some valium. He said he was 12 hours into withdrawal and he only had about $80 to spend, could I help him. Well, we were sold out, I checked the box and thee were just 8 lonely little blue pills staring back at me. But I felt for the guy and knew how bad that was going to feel and he was close by on top of it so I knew I could get the stuff there in about 12 hours. So i told him "ok, help is on the way. He said he had to move the bitcoins from some other place and couldn't pay till the next day and i said don't worry about it just get them here as soon as you can. And I went to my personal stash and got out 32 more, put together a 40 pack and overnighted it to him. At $1.25 each that's a grand total of $70 with shipping. Yeah, I even gave him the 100 pack price, figuring he was probably not rolling in dough at the moment. So I sent him a pm asking him to please send $70 worth of BTC's and here's his tracking #. I then sent three more pm's, one each for the next 3 days. And I never heard from him again. His name was YouWillNeverKnow #38952 and the only thing I will never know is the warmth of that $70 in my hot little hands. Now I still will take a payment out of escrow for Express shipping that's one BTC short and ship it and I'll take one that's 3 BTC's short and put a note for you to pay it later and let it go and get it from you when you have it to send. But what I *won't* do ever again is ship a whole order that's supposed to be paid up front. And it's not Mito's fault, it's that fucktard YouWillNeverKnow's fault but it changed the empathy factor permanently in that regards.
C Gault had a good idea when he started this thread. There has been so much talk about scamming on the forum the last three weeks that I basically just quit reading it because it's boring and depressing at the same time. :) People need to remember that the word "relationship" means the same thing on the Internet that it does in the real world. Getting one successful shipment from a vendor is no more a relationship than having a good one night stand. Getting a second shipment is just like having a repeat performance when you hook up again. A relationship is when two people are doing something together over a period of time that is lengthy enough to make it significant. The Internet has a way of compressing time to where we all sometimes tend to forget that fact. If every would-be scammer comes to these forums and sees that the entire community is staying alert and aware and reacting promptly to scamming behavior, they will just give up and move on to other, greener pastures. Ben and I want a "Starve the Scammers" program and we want one that has real teeth and stops those guys in their tracks before they have a chance to get started. Anyone who was here for the Barry Sneaky fiasco knows what happens when nothing is done. I really wonder how many other scammers were encouraged by his obvious and flagrant success.
Stay in escrow or don't stay in escrow but whatever you do make sure you have researched your vendor to the degree that you are comfortable with your decision...and then live with it. Ben and I wish you all the best in finding vendors that will treat you with the honesty and respect that you deserve. Because buyers are a sellers raison d'etre. It's as simple as that. >Alex & Ben<
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God damn it I love Silk Road.
Escrow = safety. STAY SAFE!!
-RI
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YES, all buyers should be required to take the escrow pledge!!
As a vendor, using the escrow system protects us both. If you claim to not get it, and you finalized early, there can be no documented resolution process.
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Fuk'n Ah Pharmville. Starve The Scammer Idea will surely clean up the Hood. Over Seas Scammer's Like Mr Turkey H Vendor may be a bit of a Challenge as 7-14 days may actually be part of shipping process. Lot of Damage can be done before SR get's those 3 "I've been Scammed S.O.S's.
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I read Pharmville's very thoughtful and well reasoned missive, and stood up at my desk, , myself alone, with only the cat as witness, and gave a standing ovation. The cat thought it was weird. But, what struck me was that we are here to do business, and doing business via the Internet is not much different than in person - the illegal trade of drugs means we can't do many Point of Sale transactions where fraud prevention is handled via a Paypal or merchant account services. But, SR has done a creditable job in making escrow available, but if escrow is not used, it can do us no good.
We need to go one step further to close the loop on fraud, and we need folks like Pharmville and others to convince SR to come up with workable ways to intervene in making transactions safe for honest buyers and vendors, always with an eye to strengthening that precious relationship that Pharmville so eloquently outlined.
I have no doubt that the very useful and in my case, medically essential services that we obtain here will evolve and we will overcome these temporary setbacks and look back on this era as one of SR's growing pains. My very first two orders were no shows, and SR admins intervened personally in the claim process as there were unequivocally respected vendors that had been with the site a long time before me - and they simply had like 20 packs go AWOL. Adn these things happen, I got full and partial refunds, and all was well in ESCROW.
We can get there, almost certainly, starting with the embrace of escrow with gusto, as never before. The buyers have much power, they make the market. When next confronted by an out of escrow or early release of funds request, simply and politely state. "sorry, only use the escrow system". Eventually, the scammers WILL go elsewhere, as Pharmville rightly concludes.
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I agree about escrow. I rarely ask for it up front. The only two reasons are if you've had ZERO- I was burned like 3 times my first month by new people. Using DCNs stopped that, but it is still needed, although most of the new folks have a better understanding, and I have a pretty good track record...unfortunately for some people they must type addresses in wrong or their friends take their packages or something, because if it goes into resolution and I have my DCN and it shows delivered to that person, well, I'm still getting paid. Unfortunately that leads me to get a 1/5, but most of those people want either a) their money paid back IN FULL or b) a FREE RESHIP. Sorry, if that DCN says it was delivered to the place I sent it, especially since I cut and pasted the address, there is neither. Those #'s don't lie, I did my part, and SR will agree to a 0% refund. I have offered people a deal on another order and strangely they don't want that, they want the freebie. That, folks, is a buyer scam. It is usually someone with no buyer stats. And that is the reason I have it set that way.
The other is a foreign delivery, and I must admit, selling acid across borders, esp. to CA, is not a big deal. I was just sketched as I had never sent across borders, and it did take me longer to send b/c I was trying to find the best way to do it, and it turned out to be the easiest way, and the guy at the Post Office told me...:) I was researching b/c I didn't want to lose but I am so used to having the tracking, it makes me feel so much better. I have lost very little if anything since I started with DCN all the time, but not having the DCN with Canada sketched me out a bit, even though I love Canucks...:) I do LOVE HOCKEYTOWN!...:) GO RED WINGS!...:D
I have no problem with escrow. I don't ask people outside of those two things to release early, a lot of them do anyways, but I don't ask...I have been thinking about taking the 0/0 buyers off since I have the DCN, but I feel like they may still drag it out the full amount of time, and sometimes I need that money. With my LSD almost gone I have to figure out what to do, which will involve flipping money instead of already having the product. Again, I may just wait til next year when LSD is back again.....Don't forget! 100mcg is STANDARD in USA! But some will give you LESS but never more...I promise.
There will always be some kind of scam folks. When one gets found out, another gets made. Or they use the same ones....why not? they keep on working. I don't ask people to give me money early, they do cause they trust me. I appreciate it, but never ask for it. I let mine go early too if I remember...I only really order my valium and have no problems with those boys, they're like my brothers...:)
Otherwise escrow is good. Knowing how (as a seller) to protect yourself will cause you no problems. It really is the folks I see trying to make a quick getaway or whatever...without being known expect to use escrow.
EnterTheHegemon is a good candidate for a scam alert. I AM IN NO WAY SAYING HE'S A SCAMMER!!! I HAVE NEVER DEALT WITH HIM NOR HEARD OF HIM SCAM. I want everyone to see that b/c I am not accusing him of anything. But he follows the same path of every scammer- hard to get products at regular prices if you take the escrow and very few that don't need to be in escrow. Most all his orders that are DECENT prices are sounding like they need to be paid in full before shipment. I am (sorta) following his thread at OVDB and it is kinda following the same line as here. He wants large orders, although he is unknown, and is not wanting to do small orders to build trust, which is the way they work over there (and over here if you're in the know). Here we use escrow, ESPECIALLY with an unknown person. I will never send $400 to someone I don't know with no rating unless we use escrow. It remains to see if he's a scammer or not. The first smaller orders always go through...its the ones that are higher or are afterwards that we need to worry about.
I hope he revamps his process in the VERY near future. When I started I always used escrow, never expected a thing ahead of time. My rep for having bomb LSD all the time and being cool with all the great people here is what changed that.
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Hi there to The Munchies et al.
I've got no problem with the way you addressed my unique situation, and I have to agree with you that parts of my business probably raise an eyebrow. That's fine with me, and as more orders come in, I hope to lower those eyebrows.
The OVDB experiment was a bit of dud, but I learned a lot from it. The strange thing was, as soon as I offered some samples and severely reduced pricing, I didn't get any sort of feedback. But yeah, I started off coming on a little strong there, and probably stuck to my "no samples" guns a little too long. I still check my listing over there everyday and would still relish the chance to make folks happy over there.
So far all of my orders here have qualified as in-escrow orders. My profile states that 200usd is the upper limit, but I have had no problem shipping one 260usd and one to microRNA before I ever saw the money. Those bigger listings are there to generate interest in dealing with me on a more long-term basis and should NOT be ordered as a first order. (That means you, guy-who-tried-to-order-100-Opana!).
Two folks have been cool enough so far to release escrow early without my asking them to, which is awesome, encouraged, and certainly not required.
Thanks for the feedback Munchies, let me know if I can answer any more questions. Or if you'd like to place an order, as an emissary from both board, please feel free to let me know and you will be discounted and loved-on accordingly.
Cheers!
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At this point, I don't trust a lot of the so called "reputable" sellers on this site. Seems to me that I was lucky to get in early because if I had to pay the fee only to have a bunch of cops rip me off and slander my feedback, and then have their buddies on this forum try to slander me more over it, even though I've proved I got scammed, I'd never have made ANY money on here.
As long as cops can alert post offices to your packages, and as long as their is no way to check buyer feedback and only sell to buyers with a good history, this site will continue to get infiltrated by LE.
Buyers are already protected on this site - just use escrow. Its the vendors that are getting screwed
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I take the escrow pledge. Lovin' the idea. Pharmville as always is articulate and to the point.
I don't make tons but the people I get to work with make it the small profits worth it. I'm happy to be here.
Peace,
DigitalAlch
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The man himself, taking the pledge. YEOW!
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Not a vendor, just a buyer here. Have had a dozen successful transactions from all over the globe using the ESCROW system and have felt secure that if something does go wrong there will be a fair and partial intermediary who would help come to a solution.
But with this sudden and dramatic movement away from ESCROW even by one of the BIG sellers has me extremely nervous.
I'm sure this comment will make a lot of people angry but who protects the buyer now?
What's stopping a normally reliable and solid vendor from deciding to dump a few orders in the bin now and again? Grab the money and run scenario. And if they have there own bunch of fanboys then the buyer is likely to have even more doubt cast upon them so it becomes a case of 'he said, she said'.
After previous successful orders within the ESCROW with a certain Top 5 vendor my latest (and largest) order was done out of ESCROW due to their new policies.
I believe its delivery is now well overdue and feel really let down that there is nothing I can do but plead for some sort of resolution.
Is an out of ESCROW system really workable in the environment we deal with? There are so many variables in any SR transaction that I believe both parties should have to shoulder part of the responsibility simply as the price of doing business here.
Could there ever be an insurance-type system implemented on SR? Could a buyer pay an xx% premium which would help to refund his money should the shipment not arrive.
That all being said my 1st order with a different vendor was done out of ESCROW and arrived safely and quickly (ordered later, arrived earlier, same country) but this sort of illustrates my point. ESCROW is only important when we need it.
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I think there issues brought forth by Mitry are very valid. The solution in most cases is for all buyers to insist on Escrow, and if a vendor will not comply, do business with one who does.
As far as an indemnity pool, My thinking is that such a pool can only be successfully administered by a trusted fiduciary, and that such a pool would have to be run according to strict underwriting rules no less formal than a mutual insurance co. (an insurer whose equity is held by policy holders).
Such an indemnity pool would only trigger a claims process after the escrow system had been given time to work, and the payouts would take a minimum of 60-90 days, pending investigations - no other way to run such indemnity offsetting systems.
Policies can be purchased, with different deductibles and minimums, and certain standardized data items pertaining to each claim would have to be submitted, like proofs of delivery and the surrounding actuarial environment. If a claim is for a total loss of 500, and the escrow system results in a minimum claim of 250 (a 50% resolution), and the circumstances surrounding the vendor clear possible collusion or gaming, then a table can give the result minus the deductibles, while the payout data adjusts the back-end and premium float.
But.......we are getting ahead of the game here. SR is letting its escrow system slip away, incrementally. There is nothing wrong with escrow for a professional vendor in it for the long haul. Early unproven buyers are a risk factor, and maybe a risk pool is better targeted at vendor indemnification. That is a very creative spin on indemnity of transactions conducted within a blind market.
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Escrow will prevail, the buyers have the $$$, and the loyal, repeatable buyer /seller relationships can withstand the ship time / finalize cycle. My 3 or so top notch reliable vendors that are my go to boyz are like family I have never met - but they can count on me hitting that finalize link the minute I pickup that package. I don't ever wait more than half and hour. My loyalty is theirs for as long as they deliver.
Attitudes like that crap above net this community nothing.
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Long live escrow!
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I will try. I might finalize early for small order but other than that it will be escrow only.
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I don't do oaths.
I do as I please, so long as I don't initiate aggression against others and their property or allow my actions to unintentionally damage them.
Well, or get myself stomped by the police state.
I love escrow but I do have a couple of trusted vendors that I would just as soon see get their coin as soon as possible.
It helps keep them capitalized and insures that if SR goes down for good (or gets hijacked to some strange new url) that the ones who came through reliably were taken care of in advance.
Someone new? No way. I learned in my first 2 weeks (my first attempt at a buy actually) how that can go.
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If a vendor is so great, then you shouldn't have to finalize early for them. If they can't wait 2 days to get their coin then don't do business with them.
I don't like the concept of finalizing early because its the main argument for having unlimited feedback changes. I'd like to see feedback unalterable once a buyer finalizes, but people are using early finalization as an argument for feedback edits.
There should be no early finalization and no feedback edits - Keep it simple.
The way it is now is just being abused by scammer buyers.
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If they can't wait 2 days to get their coin then don't do business with them
I do as I please
8)
Not all of my vendors are 2 days away. Some are 2 weeks.
And if I want to help a startup by providing capital that's my business. Not that it has happened yet but it's still my choice.
And what about the recreational acid head with a responsible job? Is he supposed to drop that shit right away because he wont get a chance to edit his feedback if it turns out to be bogus?
The loss of feedback editing would likely lead to more finalizing at the last moment or auto finalizing.
You have to watch out for the unintended consequences of tooling around with something that for the most part works.
If SR decides he want's to do it your way that's his business.
If you don't like the site's system and the owner doesn't care to change it then don't do business on it. I'll do the same if it gets unacceptable for me. Like sudden freaky url changes and unverifiable pgp signatures becoming the norm.
I agree the feedback is unreliable. Good (well not really, fraud is initiating aggression against others in the form of theft of property so not good but....) People need a shot of snake oil from time to time to remind them that nobody but themselves has their own back. To keep them vigilant and awake.
The flame wars are a bit immature but such is the price of liberty......tolerance of others even when they are dicks.
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Right on bp. That's a very levelheaded way of thinking.
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Escrow will prevail, the buyers have the $$$, and the loyal, repeatable buyer /seller relationships can withstand the ship time / finalize cycle. My 3 or so top notch reliable vendors that are my go to boyz are like family I have never met - but they can count on me hitting that finalize link the minute I pickup that package. I don't ever wait more than half and hour. My loyalty is theirs for as long as they deliver.
Attitudes like that crap above net this community nothing.
with the latest incidents for example the Dummy Gummy stars saga plus the other about the sr geek who ripped off a grand total of $9000, it seems the select few are spoiling it for everyone perhaps escrow is what everyone needs to stick to, so shouldn't this turn into a poll where we can all vote on it ?!
{quite clearly there is no alternative current way of dealing with this, individual sellers are losing out, commisions are going up and sellers are having to recoup their costs which ends up being paid for by the buyer...}
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That's pretty clear thinking, MXE or no.
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I would love to take the pledge if I only knew what the hell Escrow is. Can someone please help me make this transition from visiting SR to purchasing on SR?
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Only buyers w/ high refund rate would I even consider asking for an early release. Even then I think that I'd just not deal w/them. Funk the dumb shite! You cannot follow the simple rules... C-ya.
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If ever Silk Road would have a virtual board of directors / advisers, Mr. Ddro would be the Chairperson, the leading policy setter, the free market go-getter.
Let each person define their own destiny, manifest their free will, and control their personal economic decisions. Let no government stand in the way of the sovereign. I say in my native language a special thanks to my Mr. Ddro, and all SR vendors of goodwill:
Merci à vous monsieur, émérites du marché libre et souverain, et notre humanité !!!!!
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+1!
Ever since I got scammed by Mr Crane (lying sack of shit never sent my OX80) and lost my coinz I've been using escrow with Pharmville and Mr.DdroMcGillacutty and few others and never had an issue!
Escrow makes this site run smooth!
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Amen bothers and Sisters - take the pledge.......pass the hat.......finalize ASAP when you get your shit.
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I like this idea, I have always thought it was dumb to take the money out of escrow anyway. You're just asking to get scammed... ;D
Good luck to you, Cgault, and thank you for protecting our buyer's rights.
I suppose the only way to gain credibility as a buyer is to make purchases so hopefully our community can continue to grow with a core of regulars.
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I am just speaking up - for us all, but some may not agree with me. There is no super secret sauce to protecting the buyer / seller relationship, and escrow is only one piece of the puzzle - SR really needs a automatic fraud detection / prevention system - a machine learning heuristic layer that reads and matches, weighs stats and language, # of posts, number of Pms, topics, etc.
That's the way Paypal started, with a better way to detect and avoid card fraud.
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I will never go out of escrow unless it's with my most trusted sellers, and even then they better have a good reason.
Going out of escrow is a sure way to get yourself scammed. I doubt it's worth the stress anyway. It's much easier to have successful purchases on SR if you place an order with a reliable seller. The best things take a little time as they say.
Just say no to out-of-escrow.
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manage his risks far better. Dealer #2 makes more money, has less risk, works harder, has less money laundering issues.
I think SR should ban finalize early as a matter of policy or develop/allow sellers to develop a fixed, disclosed, payment, refund, policy. I would be happy to pre-agree to only get 1/2 refund if the item did not arrive or post additional funds in escrow as a performance bond should I not leave feedback. I have received a empty box from a trusted source forum vendor, whom I had met in person, right before they dispersed. $700 down the drain. So there is no easy fix to this issue, the ability to rapidly spread the word on vendors in a trusted way seems lacking, thats why we escrow. The ability to make tons of fake accounts and run up your feedback for low cost compared to your scam profits is a major issue. There are better options then the finalize early that has taken hold here, lots of new people come here and quickly fall victim to scamers. In the old days of SR almost every vendor had reviews on safeorscam, now almost none do and I find myself adding most of them.
- confirmed tracking and delivery + escrow ......would be the ideal solution.
- its also about balancing regular buyers with some newbies.
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I'm a newbie here and I have been scammed out of several hundred dollars. Although, I don't have over three successful buys, I am not finalizing early. Instead, I will find a vendor who respects the rules here and eventually I will get the numbers required. There are plenty of guys on here like the usual suspect who will work with newbies.....Thank You Unusual Suspect.....
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who's being scammed when a buyer receives his goods, but says it never arrived and demands a refund?
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I like Dopeboy's profile:
DO NOT FINALIZE EARLY! Wait until you receive your order successfully!
How about my profile????
http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/index.php/silkroad/user/106849
Peace out;
Christy
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Great idea. I definitely take the pledge.
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This pledge is pointless no thanks.
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With all the recent shady stuff going on here,
NO MORE FINALIZING EARLY,
Even if escobar or hofmann were to be the #1 coke and lsd vendors
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I am just speaking up - for us all, but some may not agree with me. There is no super secret sauce to protecting the buyer / seller relationship, and escrow is only one piece of the puzzle - SR really needs a automatic fraud detection / prevention system - a machine learning heuristic layer that reads and matches, weighs stats and language, # of posts, number of Pms, topics, etc.
That's the way Paypal started, with a better way to detect and avoid card fraud.
yeah, I'm sure that couldn't be rigged. What a great idea to model after Paypal, btw. NOT
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who's being scammed when a buyer receives his goods, but says it never arrived and demands a refund?
No one. Send with DCN, and if the DCN says delivered, end of story.
Your feedback might get dinged anyway, but there is no perfect system to protect against that.
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I've been a member for 5 months, with 11 transactions, and I've never finalized early for a transaction. I honestly don't think I ever will. I've never been scammed and have received all of my packages. ;D
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I've been a member for 5 months, with 11 transactions, and I've never finalized early for a transaction. I honestly don't think I ever will. I've never been scammed and have received all of my packages. ;D
;D
Glad to hear you've had such a great time here, the past couple weeks have sounded really bad around these forums.
We should all strive to keep such a successful transaction rate! 8)
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I have always and will always stay in Escrow, if a vendor asked me to go out I would just cancel. Even if I have used them previously I will always do it, they could get busted before posting it for all I know. Always better to stay safe :)
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I have a view from both sides of this fence .
I used to ask New Users to FE , it helps cash flow , it meant that that I could welcome New Users without fear of not getting paid . As a responsible vendor if things went wrong I would try to smooth things out . However what happened was I started to "lose" a percentage that was clearly at odds with the norm , it then occured to me that the buyer could change feedback but if I refunded or resent after FE that it wouldn't show on their stats . Consequently I altered my T's n C's so as much as I understand why a vendor ask for FE I think its self defeating .
Then we have my buyer account.
It has some GREAT stats
1000 BTC + spend
NO refunds
NO autofinalization
But I still get asked to FE and that really pisses me off . I do as asked but I agree with the OP , if we work within the SR rules it will be better in the long run .
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I think the escrow system is great as long as the seller has a way of knowing 100% sure that the product arrived or didn't, like a tracking number or delivery confirmation. As a seller, as long as I know that a buyer isn't lying by saying that they didn't get their stuff, then I have no issues leaving $ in escrow. Why should the buyer have to pay for something before receiving it? I guess maybe not all sellers share the same opinion, but the way I've done things so far is that you finalize when you receive it, and if you don't get it and I can prove that you did then you'll have some explaining to do.
buyers and sellers need to cut each other some slack but still be careful
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just read this under feedback for Ivory's listing of 1gram MDMA:
"Finalizing early upon sellers request. Even though i have 50+ transactions. Hope it comes soon."
WTF????? First, why the hell would you finalize early for anyone when you have 50 transactions?
Second, why is Ivory asking someone with 50 transactions to finalize early on a measly gram?
god, it hurts to read shit like this
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I'm glad to see this thread is still going strong.
I am a relative old-timer on Silk Road (member > 12 months) and would never consider going outside escrow. It's just not worth the risk of losing my hard-earned bitcoins. (Granted, I have never placed an order for more than 1/2 oz. of weed -- not an especially high-value transaction around here.)
I urge new buyers: please don't agree to finalize early, before you have received the product. Agree to low-bitcoin-value transactions to build reputation if you must, but don't mindlessly agree to give away your one and only piece of leverage: your money.
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I, anonymous buyer, hereby pledge never use the escrow system, especially buying from Swazibudbud888 who sells good commercial mid-grade bud at outstanding prices, who also required Early Finalization.
Here's the deal...
I dont mind taking responsibility for my decisions.
If you do mind taking responsibility for your decisions, leave the road and dont come back, or only buy from sellers who do not require FE.
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I haven't formally taken the pledge, but I am right now. Why is early finalization even allowed/required for anybody? I understand that new buyers or even old buyers may buy a product and then lie to get a reship or their money back, but that doesn't warrent EVERYBODY with under 10 transactions literally gambling with their money.
In the real world, drug dealers have to deal with fucking losers who pull this kinda shit. IMO, the best policy for buyers would be one along the lines of reserving the right to decide on the refund based on the buyers history and stats. But if I have to put $200 in the hands of somebody who might just decide that he can royally fuck me and have a great night, no thanks.
Please, please, please get rid of this FE bullshit. I will never do it.
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I'll take the pledge.
But I have to say, some of the vendors would really prefer FE for shipping to high-risk countries. Perfectly understandable, since the buyer knows that the chance of the pack being intercepted is very high.
In addition, vendors shouldn't make all newbies FE. If they provide DCN for all orders, FE wouldn't be necessary for people with less than 5 transactions, and all feedback trolling could easily be dealt with if the vendor shoots a PM to the administrators probably?
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I am just catching this, and I am confident I am dumbing it down a bit, but isn't this the same as fronting? Like escrow is your friend. Trust your friend. If you want to risk it FE.
IDK I will read the rest of the posts after this bowl. But to each their own. SR gives you the choice, and thats important I think.
F&H
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Face it, you will never get away from scammers 100%. It's a pipe dream. That's like saying wal-mart will stop shoplifting. Verndors and buyers need to realize this. If I were a vendor, I would account for this in my business model, just like any other business accounts for losses (breakage, theft, etc.)
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Face it, you will never get away from scammers 100%. It's a pipe dream. That's like saying wal-mart will stop shoplifting. Verndors and buyers need to realize this. If I were a vendor, I would account for this in my business model, just like any other business accounts for losses (breakage, theft, etc.)
exactly. all retailers have to face the fact that no matter what, there will be shrinkage of inventory. if you can't handle it, you probably should get out of retail
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I'd like to take the pledge. Yes I feel that FE is a type of fronting. Yea I feel that when a vendor has to wait on escrow then it's a type of fronting with some differences. I mean, a buyers money is tied up in escrow and if the product arrives and is as stated then the vendor gets paid. There has to be some kind of trust and it has to start somewhere. The real uniqueness to this SR site is it is a place where honerable vendors can hook up with honerable buyers. If they get enough of those buyers to suit there needs, they can go into stealth mode and stay off the public/scammers radars
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Wow, it just broke my fucking heart to see this thread for the first time, see Pharmville post in the thread and realize it was from November of last year. Member for 9 months, and just saying no to FE since 4/20.
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I'm not signing shit.
Finalizing early is a great way to ensure a good friend or long standing connect securely and quickly receives their funds.
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Take the FE pledge and get your money first and cut out 80% straight up of lame scamming buyers..
I'm not signing shit.
Finalizing early is a great way to ensure a good friend or long standing connect securely and quickly receives their funds.
lol tell it how it is mate.
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just read this under feedback for Ivory's listing of 1gram MDMA:
"Finalizing early upon sellers request. Even though i have 50+ transactions. Hope it comes soon."
WTF? ??? ? First, why the hell would you finalize early for anyone when you have 50 transactions?
Second, why is Ivory asking someone with 50 transactions to finalize early on a measly gram?
god, it hurts to read shit like this
Well yeah, you also have to realize that your dealing with people with a taste voor good living and substance abuse, either can be detrimental to judgement and logical course of action.
Remember that fruitcake you'd sometimes meet at your dealers house, back in the old days when it was still on te street (and not in a mailpouch sack, well that fruitcake, he never went away. So if there is somebody who wants to seperate from his (perhaps not so) hard earned cash after 50 transactions to his name for a gram of MDMA, that must be some good crystal and hey he might have been on it. i remember deals and concessions that were made to people on E that were not followed up on and caused a lot of friction afterwards. ( Maybe we should have that security system that google has for late night emails, Its an option. Before you're allowed to send the mail after 11pm, they have you make 5 simple calculations that you have to answer. If you fail, the mail will not be sent... (i installed thunderbird after failing three times). It protects people against those drunk-regret emails that have caused a lot of problem, or it's at least a barrier.
Wouldn't work for me, 11pm is just an arbitrary moment behind my computer and an indication of the incandescence outside.
But ultimately i don't think that that is what the problem is on the Silk Road at the moment. It's quality and pricing. There is the issue of syntethic drugs, they can be tested in the Netherlands, and why can't there be a panel of individual dutch people that have the drugs testd and then return the results in the 12 different provinces of the Netherlands, if the results are the same (they are kep encrypted and secret until all three have their indepdendt shipment tested, and then revealed. If the three results are very similar, this can be said about that product, vendor and price. It's a coordinated system of anonymous timed investigation that are witness to eachother.
If i buy 4% amfetimine i would like to pay the market price for 4% amfetamine and according to the EMCCDA (http://emcdda.europa.eu/) the street price of amphetamine in the Netherlands is 10 Euros, i expect my amphetamine to be 50% pure, (i won't coplain about 30%) but I still buy it because i have no choice. That's exactly why people would flock to SR, they have the choice ,except the stuff they sell here (with ridiculous claims of 80% purity etc.) and then send speed that makes you fall asleep - that is exactly why i don't trust easily anyone vending amphetamines .
Then why do we need to make so much money in this distribution chain, it's a business. In the very musically ecclectic (country acid house, i tell ya) as well as lyrically poignant "Bourgeousie Blues" of Alabama 3, there is a line where Lenin says "Selling third world drugs at first world prices!, what a society we're living in."
Prices can easily be 20-30% lower than they are offered now, quality in certain area should improve. If the good lords willing and the creeks don't rise, i'll see more poeple making the switch to Silk Road. I had my first Dutch customer for hashish because of the license and registration system of the coffeeshops (and the de facto closing of the shops as such) come 1st jan 2013.
It looks like even the Dutch will be on the road again...Coffeeshops make good money, they have rent expenses, employees. It can be done at least at the same price as a coffeeshop or a good connection in Amsterdam.
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I'm not signing shit.
Finalizing early is a great way to ensure a good friend or long standing connect securely and quickly receives their funds.
It's also a greater way to get scammed.
Let's be honest for a minute,
we're not here to become "friends" with our vendors.
Of course they're going to sound nice and friendly before getting the btc because their top priority is to sell as much product as possible.
They're drug dealers for fucks sake.
Just so you know, many vendors were the coolest peeps around before going to the dark side.
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I'm not signing shit.
Finalizing early is a great way to ensure a good friend or long standing connect securely and quickly receives their funds.
It's also a greater way to get scammed.
Let's be honest for a minute,
we're not here to become "friends" with our vendors.
Of course they're going to sound nice and friendly before getting the btc because their top priority is to sell as much product as possible.
They're drug dealers for fucks sake.
Just so you know, many vendors were the coolest peeps around before going to the dark side.
Agreed.
However stating that simply because a particular person was scamming that the finalizing early option should be removed is brazen.
Personally I feel as though if a buyer doesn't support this particular feature, they are within their rights, and should simply ignore it.
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I'm not signing shit.
Finalizing early is a great way to ensure a good friend or long standing connect securely and quickly receives their funds.
It's also a greater way to get scammed.
Let's be honest for a minute,
we're not here to become "friends" with our vendors.
Of course they're going to sound nice and friendly before getting the btc because their top priority is to sell as much product as possible.
They're drug dealers for fucks sake.
Just so you know, many vendors were the coolest peeps around before going to the dark side.
So what your saying is that deep down, all vendors will rip you off and scam you given the chance.
And that all vendors top priority is btc
and that we are not here to make friends with our vendors
Wouldnt it be great to link SR forum usernames to SR marketplace usernames ;D
It is interesting you say that some of the vendors were the coolest peeps around before going to the darkside.
One theory I have is they had every intention to deliver and satisfy customers and maybe in the end with buyers scamming them and writing up lies in their feedback that just maybe they had enough and lost faith in DPR and SR protecting them from scumbag buyers and so they go to the darkside.
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I'm not signing shit.
Finalizing early is a great way to ensure a good friend or long standing connect securely and quickly receives their funds.
It's also a greater way to get scammed.
Let's be honest for a minute,
we're not here to become "friends" with our vendors.
Of course they're going to sound nice and friendly before getting the btc because their top priority is to sell as much product as possible.
They're drug dealers for fucks sake.
Just so you know, many vendors were the coolest peeps around before going to the dark side.
So what your saying is that deep down, all vendors will rip you off and scam you given the chance.
And that all vendors top priority is btc
and that we are not here to make friends with our vendors
Wouldnt it be great to link SR forum usernames to SR marketplace usernames ;D
It is interesting you say that some of the vendors were the coolest peeps around before going to the darkside.
One theory I have is they had every intention to deliver and satisfy customers and maybe in the end with buyers scamming them and writing up lies in their feedback that just maybe they had enough and lost faith in DPR and SR protecting them from scumbag buyers and so they go to the darkside.
Don't get me wrong man, I've been on SR for some time now and have very nice relationships with some vendors.
I even used to finalize early for a couple trusted one after having built solid relationships with them.
But look at what happened last month.
Tony, Noriega, USDirect.
3 vendors of the TOP 1% and 6% vendors on SR scammed buyers around 100000$.
T and US were considered "trusted" in our community.
I've been scammed for a considerable amount too and I learned my lesson the hard way.
I'm won't finalize early ever anymore.
I've spent over 9K here and have 0% refund and auto-finalize rates because I always did my research and knew who to deal with.
But fuck it, if a vendor don't want my business so be it, others will be happy to sell.
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That would probably be the best policy in regards to business dealings here.
I for one have no intentions of finalizing early for any product or vendor that I do not have a long standing reputation with.
However I am interested in high level narco traffic such as from Columbia to the Eastern US seaboard so even paying out right for my dope is a little silly.
I do however support the active efforts of the members as well as vendors here I am just looking to sell a "shit ton" of dope lol.
cocaine, ecstasy, ketamine, heroin, rc's, lsd, etc...
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It's more or less all about your comfort zone whether to be in or ooe.
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Even though I am a new seller (like 5 transactions), I've been a buyer on SR for a long time. As a buyer, a selling asking me to Finalize Early instantly put up a red flag. I did in the beginning because I was new (For some sellers its a requirement to Finalize early if you're a new buyers.), and didn't really know any better. Out of 50+ transactions I was scanned once by "Gekko" for like 3 BTC, so not a deal but it still pissed me OFF! Finalizing early is essentially like using Topix (if you know about it) to buy drugs.
ANYWAYS, I'M A BUYER AND WILL NEVER REQUIRE MY SELLERS TO FINALIZE EARLY!
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PEOPLE, THIS IS FROM THE SELLERS GUIDE
Cash advance
From your account page, you may accept advance payments on your orders that are currently in escrow. You'll see four numbers and a form field in a “cash advance” control panel. The first number is your limit. If your total outstanding advance payments meet or exceed this limit, you may not accept any more cash advances. The next number is the total of your advances currently outstanding. The third number is the difference between the first two, the total still available to you. The fourth number is the current fee for taking a cash advance. When you put the amount you want advanced to you in the input field and click go, that amount is immediately credited to your available account balance. This credit comes from the expected payments of your most recent transactions. When those transactions are eventually finalized, your account is not credited for them because you have already been paid. If a full or partial refund is issued for one of the transactions, your account is debited by the amount you were advanced plus the fee (or a prorated amount in the case of a partial refund).
For example, you sell a 20 btc item and then a 10 btc item. Your account page tells you that you have a 15 btc cash advance limit and the fee is currently 10%. You need all 15 btc, so you enter in 15 and click go. First, you are advanced 9 btc from the most recent 10 btc sale (10 btc minus the 10% fee). Then you are given a partial advance from the previous sale: 6 btc for a total of 15 btc. Let's say the 20 btc sale goes off without a hitch and the buyer finalizes the order. At that point, you would be paid 20 btc minus the 6 you were advanced, minus 10% of 6 (0.60 btc) for the fee, for a total of 13.4 btc. Next, let's say the 10 btc sale goes to resolution and you give your customer a 100% refund. In this case, you've already been advanced 9 btc and need to pay the 10% fee for a total of 10 btc, the original price. Therefore, 10 btc will be subtracted from your available account balance. If this causes your account to go negative, then any future deposits or payments will go toward reducing that negative balance.
The limit and fee are both self-adjusting according to a few simple parameters. The limit is governed by how much recent business you've done, and how much money you are expected to be paid from escrow. The fee is determined by the supply of and demand for the funds available for cash advances.
THIS IS FROM THE SELLERS GUIDE.
I'm not sure how many people realize this! If a vendor is that short of money he has to ask to FE on small items (firstly, should he really be a vendor on here at all), he could have a +10% listing price for customers willing to PAY not to FE. This does happen. Then the vendor gets his cash advance (without losing 10%), the buyer stays in escrow, no FEs and everyone's happy!?! I know there's a limit to the vendors advances, but surely something can be worked out.
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PEOPLE, THIS IS FROM THE SELLERS GUIDE
Cash advance
From your account page, you may accept advance payments on your orders that are currently in escrow. You'll see four numbers and a form field in a “cash advance” control panel. The first number is your limit. If your total outstanding advance payments meet or exceed this limit, you may not accept any more cash advances. The next number is the total of your advances currently outstanding. The third number is the difference between the first two, the total still available to you. The fourth number is the current fee for taking a cash advance. When you put the amount you want advanced to you in the input field and click go, that amount is immediately credited to your available account balance. This credit comes from the expected payments of your most recent transactions. When those transactions are eventually finalized, your account is not credited for them because you have already been paid. If a full or partial refund is issued for one of the transactions, your account is debited by the amount you were advanced plus the fee (or a prorated amount in the case of a partial refund).
For example, you sell a 20 btc item and then a 10 btc item. Your account page tells you that you have a 15 btc cash advance limit and the fee is currently 10%. You need all 15 btc, so you enter in 15 and click go. First, you are advanced 9 btc from the most recent 10 btc sale (10 btc minus the 10% fee). Then you are given a partial advance from the previous sale: 6 btc for a total of 15 btc. Let's say the 20 btc sale goes off without a hitch and the buyer finalizes the order. At that point, you would be paid 20 btc minus the 6 you were advanced, minus 10% of 6 (0.60 btc) for the fee, for a total of 13.4 btc. Next, let's say the 10 btc sale goes to resolution and you give your customer a 100% refund. In this case, you've already been advanced 9 btc and need to pay the 10% fee for a total of 10 btc, the original price. Therefore, 10 btc will be subtracted from your available account balance. If this causes your account to go negative, then any future deposits or payments will go toward reducing that negative balance.
The limit and fee are both self-adjusting according to a few simple parameters. The limit is governed by how much recent business you've done, and how much money you are expected to be paid from escrow. The fee is determined by the supply of and demand for the funds available for cash advances.
THIS IS FROM THE SELLERS GUIDE.
I'm not sure how many people realize this! If a vendor is that short of money he has to ask to FE on small items (firstly, should he really be a vendor on here at all), he could have a +10% listing price for customers willing to PAY not to FE. This does happen. Then the vendor gets his cash advance (without losing 10%), the buyer stays in escrow, no FEs and everyone's happy!?! I know there's a limit to the vendors advances, but surely something can be worked out.
Didn't know that, helps me understand why some people need FE.
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hey, we should all make a pact that if we absolutely MUST finalize early, we leave 1/5 feedback until the product arrives in proper form
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I do solemnly swear that this thread is ridiculous because if people just used their common sense there wouldn't be a need for this thread anyway. So help me god. LOL
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I do solemnly take all of the above under advisement.
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BUMPITY BUMP!!!!