Silk Road forums
Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: pspring188 on July 07, 2013, 04:06 am
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hi SR drug safety experts, I am looking for a benzo alternative. I love klonopin as a sleep aid as it quickly calms my mind and I can usually fall asleep without a doubt. my dr gave me seroquel(horrible) and gabapentin(no real affects), but am trying to find something that will quickly help calm my mind, or induce sleep, without any nasty side affects. I've tried ambien also, which may be an option but I'm not a huge fan. I really love klonopin but dont like the long term side affects
any other recommendations?? i am looking for fast acting drug when I am at my tails' end running mad in bed. I also don't want to be heavily sedated/knocked out for 12hrs. Something more to shut my mind down. thanks for any support
-pspring
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If you tried benzos, ambien (z-drugs) and seroquel (snoozeberries) you're pretty much screwed.
Your alternatives are essentially valerian root and kava kava and melatonin and promethazine.
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Dormicum [midazolam] is superb, but pricey. I carry it.
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thanks for the response! kind of what I figured.
i tried kava kava years ago and didn't notice anything but mouth numbing, maybe it needs a revisit. I've never tried valerian root, I will research that. I've tried melatonin via ZMA MAX(melatonin/zinc/magnesium) and it seems to help, but nothing really shuts down my mind like a benzo.
this will motivate me to try some things out, also I take 5-htp as a precautionary but it does not seem to have any noticable affect.
thanks,
-pspring
(edit: midazolam is a benzo, but thanks)
(edit2: BC, I became a fan since I cant +1, thank you !! )
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Fellow insomniac here myself.
Klonopin and Xanax work well but the day after brain fog always bothered me. Have you tried taking a half dose of something like diphenhydramine(antihistamine/benedryl) then taking a smaller dose of Klonopin or xanax right before you lay down. My problem was Xanax's short half life always had me wide awake about 4 hours after the first dose.
Personally, I've always stayed away from zolpidem and lunesta because I would wake up with the absolute worst acid reflux in the morning, not to mention mild hallucinations before falling asleep.
I know people hate hearing it but 1 hour or more of cardio (running, elliptical) after a good workout(weights) helped me when I had the time for it. Also, no falling asleep to TV.
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Fellow insomniac here myself.
Klonopin and Xanax work well but the day after brain fog always bothered me. Have you tried taking a half dose of something like diphenhydramine(antihistamine/benedryl) then taking a smaller dose of Klonopin or xanax right before you lay down. My problem was Xanax's short half life always had me wide awake about 4 hours after the first dose.
Personally, I've always stayed away from zolpidem and lunesta because I would wake up with the absolute worst acid reflux in the morning, not to mention mild hallucinations before falling asleep.
I know people hate hearing it but 1 hour or more of cardio (running, elliptical) after a good workout(weights) helped me when I had the time for it. Also, no falling asleep to TV.
have you tried etizolam. im not super into benzo's but etizolam seems to help me sleep without giving me a "fog" the next morning
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I've always heard of it but never paid attention to it since alprozolam and clonazepam is fairly cheap.
I did just read and article earlier today about it. Definitely intriguing. I'm not big in to benzo's either but anxiety is a relentless asshole and I refuse to take SSRIs.
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yea +1 Mcrad I agree etizolam is great for sleeping with out any hangover effects like xanax
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Etizolam or hydroxyzine as well. Mentioning etizolam is sort of like arguing semantics because it technically isn't a benzo. etizolam has weird ass SSRI effects though. It's related to Zyprexa.
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GHB has not been mentioned here yet. Works excellently for this application.
Dosage should determined by experimentation - will be in the 1g - 3g range. You should take the lowest amount possible that is just enough to tip you over edge to allow natural sleep to happen.
This is sustainable and will tend to entrain your brain to start falling asleep naturally especially if you take it at a similar time every night (assuming your life is routine enough for that). In time you will find that you need less and less, rather than becoming dependent on it for sleep.
It will also allow and support the full process of natural sleep (stages 1-4 and REM), rather than simply making you "unconscious", which is very different physiologically to actual sleep.
Further questions - just ask...
BG
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Fellow insomniac here myself.
Klonopin and Xanax work well but the day after brain fog always bothered me. Have you tried taking a half dose of something like diphenhydramine(antihistamine/benedryl) then taking a smaller dose of Klonopin or xanax right before you lay down. My problem was Xanax's short half life always had me wide awake about 4 hours after the first dose.
Personally, I've always stayed away from zolpidem and lunesta because I would wake up with the absolute worst acid reflux in the morning, not to mention mild hallucinations before falling asleep.
I know people hate hearing it but 1 hour or more of cardio (running, elliptical) after a good workout(weights) helped me when I had the time for it. Also, no falling asleep to TV.
+1 it will be difficult to improve on this response.
Try not to get dependent on the benzos it is a nasty road to travel.
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I tried prescription Temazapam briefly, then read how awful it is, not asking for a repeat... yeah left me foggy too..
Best natural methods are hard weight training to the point where your muscles feel sore - it stimulates deeper better sleep through growth hormone release I think - and just feels great - and avoid blue light and all the modern techno shit crammed in to our lives these days. TV is just shit.
Light is a big factor, look in to that, especially the effect of blue light at night which is TV's, bright screens and so on.
Just try to lead a natural life as possible, as close you can to what we did tens of thousdands of years ago before all this modern shit like TV's, sugar, shit food, sitting on our fat asses all day wondering why we're depressed and feeling shit, the list goes on..
Just think to yourself... what would native man have done 10,000 years ago, how did he live... what did he eat... what didn't he eat (which includes bread and junk food and other crap)..
You will be surprised how much of effect all this can have on us..
A bit of TV is fine but our home lives revolve around it these days, it's almost all pointless cheap garbage and makes people really boring to talk to anyway... Just keep TV like chocolate... a bit is fine but every day will make you brain fat and slow and sleep deprived and no one will want to talk to you because you are boring and brain fat..
Go for a run, pump some weights or go hang out with friends instead. You will also spend less money not feeling shit all the time about not having that latest new car or whatever other crap they keep telling us we absolutely must have to be happy... because.. apparently, we were utterly miserable for 10,000 years until they invented their shit. And in six months, we will be miserable and depressed again because we don't have their latest new shit.
Throw it out, you won't miss it... you will read more and have more friends instead because you can actually hold a conversation again and enjoy life more, and sleep better, and have less expensive shit to worry about all the time when you are out with your friends. And friends rarely care what shit you have anyway..
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From my experiences, extended workouts a couple hours before bed, meditation prior to sleep, good chill music that makes you feel good, melatonin on a daily basis at a regular time (after taking melatonin remove or heavily reduce lighting, and don't watch TV/computer). Obviously no sugars before bed, and no caffeine after about noon (if sleeping in pm).
-PB
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It's not as strong as a benzodiazepine, of course, but I find that over the counter Benadryl (or anything with its active ingredient) or Unisom works. I particularly like that they are not habit-forming since I've gone through the wonderful (read HORRIBLE AWFUL NO GOOD VERY BAD) benzo withdrawal.
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That's like asking, "what's the best antibiotic for a fever."
There are a couple of things that can cause insomnia, two to consider off the bat are bipolar disorder and anxiety. Main difference being, bipolar gives you periodic insomnia.
Sleep onset insomnia is typically due to anxiety IME. Psychologically, what it shows is that your system is too complicated and high energy. Everybody has anxiety, everybody has a system for dealing with it. Some people deal with stress the way a football player gets pumped up for a game. When you relax to go to sleep, you let your defenses down, and then the anxiety comes back. A few seconds after you go to sleep, boing! Panic attack.
These people, more or less consciously, perceive the need for something to get them through that transition, safely past Stage 1 sleep and then they're fine. Of course, then they have dreams to contend with. Hence the preference for dream suppressants like clonazepam.
Look, all mental health drugs are drugs of abuse. Didn't use to be that way. When the shaman sent you out past pluto on mescaline, she expected some permanent change for the better, without you having to take mescaline every durn day of your life. Now, we don't really expect people to change, we just dope them up and hope for the best.
This is why God made psychologists. Insight is the answer. Mindfulness. The truth will set you free. To be clear, it won't make you happy. It just sets you free.
Till then, well, use drugs, I guess. How come nobody mentioned cannabis here?
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You could try something like soma, flexeril or zanaflex. Flexeril is sometimes prescribed for insomnia and works quite well for that, it also doesn't have any bad side effects, it's actually kind of pleasant. I don't think you could get prescribed soma for insomnia but it works extremely well...
I agree with cirrus on unisom, it's pretty effective but it will leave you pretty tired the next day, and benadryl is even worse.
GHB doesn't work at all for me, it does more the opposite but I guess it works for most people :P
Maybe you could get your doctor to prescribe your flexeril, it's unscheduled so it won't be sketchy if you ask for that.
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A vendor here (international) has Zopiclone, which is basically Lunesta (one isomer of it). Lunesta is MUCH better for sleep than most benzos, even. I'd definitely look into it.
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GHB 100%
It's a great sleep aid. I use it regularly. As an added bonus, take a slightly higher dose and be blessed with an erection that's ready to rock before lights out :)
All in, a great euphoric deep sleep with the added option of some great sex makes GHB the bomb for bedtime IMO.
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I am a fellow insomniac as well.
One thing to point out about exercise is that ( for me anyway) working out too close to bed time would make my insomnia so much worse. I keep my working out to early evening.
During times when insomnia is too much to bear I do take ambien. I found that if I take benadryal about 30 min or so before taking ambien I don't wake up in a couple of hours.
It is important to look at the causes of insomnia and develop healthy sleep patterns but some times you need to get some sleep.
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i've been taking minor doses of ambien for sleep. i don't know about anyone else, but i'm usually sleepy during the day and wide awake at night.
btw, have you considered provigil to keep you awake for the nights when you can't fall asleep?
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Using GHB for sleep is worse than using benzos. GHB is barely used medically.
Lol get some phenobarbital or etizolam.
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During times when insomnia is too much to bear I do take ambien. I found that if I take benadryal about 30 min or so before taking ambien I don't wake up in a couple of hours.
Antihistamines like benadryl and doxylamine are actually fairly decent sleep inducing agents, especially when combined with a moderate dose of alcohol. Upside this that they are generally available OTC at very low prices, downside is that you will develop tolerance rather quickly.
I am allergic to mosquito bites, and take antihistaminics after being bitten a couple of times. The exact antihistamine doesn't really seem to matter much, cetirizine, doxylamine and diphenhydramide all do the job just fine. As mosquitos are quite seasonal where i live, i notice the sedative effects appear much stronger in the beginning of the season despite taking equal doses throughout the summer. In winter the tolerance rebuilds i suppose as i don't need them for allergies when there are no mosquitos around.
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I'm no expert like you are asking for but ghb or alchohol are my faves. I normally drink a pint of rum almost every night and drift off to sleep.
Ghb will put u to sleep and wears off in about 6 hours and there is no hangover. I'd highly recommend BlueGiraffe. just don't mix with any other depressants...
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I'm sure GHB will put you out eventually, but it may be overkill if you just want to sleep.
Recently i've seen some listings for mogdon (nitrazepam) on SR. That would be one of the best benzo's for inducing sleep you could get, and due to its short halflife cause little problem the next day.
You should note that insomnia comes in more that one form though. Something like nitrazepam is excellent if you have trouble falling asleep, but keep sleeping once you are asleep. If your problem is that you fall asleep just fine but wake up way to early it would not be the drug of choice at all.
You should also consider the use of sleep in the first place - simply taking something tat knock you out for the night may work on the short term, buy you need proper REM sleep over longer periods of time.
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Avoid alcohol, it may get you to sleep but totally screws up your sleep, big time, and makes you fat over the long term.
Try basic sleep discipline instead. Blue or bright light at night is a huge problem these days - like TV's, house lights etc. Try getting some cheap blue blocking glasses. Melatonin is cheap (but research how to use it properly as it's not a drug, it's a clock sync type thing).
And of course exercise. Weight training is famous for stimulating quality sleep by releasing hormones etc.
But avoid alcohol. The stuff is toxic at the best of times, and just destroys sleep if it doesn't wake you up completely in the middle of the night as your liver fires up trying to process all that shit you just pumped in to your body.
Magnesium / calcium sleep powders are highly effective too, and cheap.
I found the best solutions were actually the cheapest in the end, without making you fat and sick and foul tempered the next day.
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How come nobody mentioned cannabis here?
i am an occasional insomniac and an infrequent cannabis user. given the absence of any tolerance, a couple puffs of some high grade is the best way to fall alseep imho
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Weed is MUCH better than benzos, for sure, but can supress dreaming and over a long term really does turn people in to dopey forgetful lazy losers. Every now and then it's fine, probably for even longer than benzos.
Vape don't smoke though. Invest in a high quality vaporiser.
Thanks for reminding me, I should get some more too.
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I produce a supplement blend for this purpose, called ChillPill; it contains bioidentical and bioavailable vitamers and metabolites, along with somniferous herbal extracts. Hundreds of SR users have tried it, with 100% satisfaction.
Product:
http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad/item/4dc5679867
Reviews:
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=3299
In general, insomnia is produced by a hyper-excitatory, often hypo-thyroid state. Aspartame, glutamate, estrogens, adrenalin, and tryptophan are common culprits. Factors that antagonize these will help with insomnia; benzos are just about the crudest way to accomplish this, but it causes collateral damage and is not sustanable. Lay off the diet coke, the sugarless gum, the soysauce, and the hamburgers and your insomina will improve. Many flavonoids ('plant hormones', highest in fruit and some leaves) have direct "benzodiazepine-like" effects on neurons, and other are aromatase inhibitors that reduce the activity of estrogen. A deficiency of niacin may also exacerbate insomnia; insufficient energy production prevents neurons from remaining in the high-energy 'resting' state required for sleep.
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That would depend entirely on how bad your insomnia is, and how gullible you are.
People that suffer from serious, diagnosed, insomnia do not have this problem because they put some sweetener in their evening tea, they actually suffer from medical conditions like delayed sleep phase disorder or such. Ingesting some, or even a whole bottle full of, melatonin will not provide any relief.
I see he supplements your are offering contain a very large number of extracts, some of which may actually be effective. The key would be to discover which ones actually are. To get a good review of this we would need to test each ingredient individually and rate its sleep inducing properties. I noticed many of them are plant extracts, so it would be useful to clarify which one is actually responsible for the mechanism of action.
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People with 'serious, diagnosed' insomnia have this problem because the tonic level of stimulation in their brain is too high at night. Nothing more, nothing less. To the extent that aspartame contributes to their excitatory burden, it is a contributor to their insomnia. Needless to say it's never the only factor involved.
The herbal extracts I use are all effective; there are scientific papers describing the effects of all of these plants as pertains to over-stimulation and insomnia, and most have been 'traditionally' used for such purposes as well. Each plant would affect each individual differently, and including a variety of plants should provide the most benefit for the most people. Our ideal diets would contain a wide variety of physiologically active plants, so my capsules do as well.
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People that do not ingest any atrificial sweetener, aspartame or otherwise, also suffer from sleep disorders. This should be a pretty good hint that these are not actually the culprit.
As for the herbal extracts: Perhaps there is some compound in them that actually induces sleep. If that is the case, lets find out which substance it is exactly and market only that substance, or the herb that produces it if it cannot be synthesized or isolated.
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People that do not ingest any atrificial sweetener, aspartame or otherwise, also suffer from sleep disorders. This should be a pretty good hint that these are not actually the culprit.
As for the herbal extracts: Perhaps there is some compound in them that actually induces sleep. If that is the case, lets find out which substance it is exactly and market only that substance, or the herb that produces it if it cannot be synthesized or isolated.
Many factors, endogenous and exogenous, contribute to neural excitation. I used aspartame as an example because it's a potent excitotoxin, but obviously it is not the only one. I mentioned other excitatory factors in my post, but you ignored them in your response. Are you suggesting that over-stimulation does not cause insomnia?
All plants, including the herbs I use, contain thousands upon thousands of physiologically active substances, all of which contribute to the herb's effects. Any substance that is isolated from an herb will exhibit only some of the properties of the whole herb, and the properties of combinations of constituents are more than the sum of their individual parts. Modern research on the constituents of the herbs informs my formulations, but since the herbs I use all have a long history of traditional use as whole herbs, I use polar extracts of the herbs rather than their isolated constituents.
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GHB has not been mentioned here yet. Works excellently for this application.
Dosage should determined by experimentation - will be in the 1g - 3g range. You should take the lowest amount possible that is just enough to tip you over edge to allow natural sleep to happen.
This is sustainable and will tend to entrain your brain to start falling asleep naturally especially if you take it at a similar time every night (assuming your life is routine enough for that). In time you will find that you need less and less, rather than becoming dependent on it for sleep.
It will also allow and support the full process of natural sleep (stages 1-4 and REM), rather than simply making you "unconscious", which is very different physiologically to actual sleep.
Further questions - just ask...
BG
I would highly advice against using GHB to fall a sleep, plenty of people slip into coma's and die that way. I have even saved some people that were going to die if it wasn't for me to safe their ass.
I have no idea what the dosage is with powder since i have only had my hands on liquid.
My advice would be: Wake up early, go to work / workout / jog for a few miles, just so that your body is tired at night. Also don't watch tv in your bed or anything else besides sleeping (and wrestling with your wife/husband)
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I don't know how severe your insomnia is, but the 1st generation antihistamines (doxylamine, diphenhydramine - Benadryl) work for me. They're also cheap and widely available OTC. Although sometimes (particularly with Benadryl) I find the amount I need to take to make me sleep leaves me foggy headed and a bit shambolic the next morning.
I'll only turn to something like Xanax if I'm really wired (I know when doxy's not gunna work) or have to be up early next morning with a clear head.
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People that do not ingest any atrificial sweetener, aspartame or otherwise, also suffer from sleep disorders. This should be a pretty good hint that these are not actually the culprit.
As for the herbal extracts: Perhaps there is some compound in them that actually induces sleep. If that is the case, lets find out which substance it is exactly and market only that substance, or the herb that produces it if it cannot be synthesized or isolated.
Many factors, endogenous and exogenous, contribute to neural excitation. I used aspartame as an example because it's a potent excitotoxin, but obviously it is not the only one. I mentioned other excitatory factors in my post, but you ignored them in your response. Are you suggesting that over-stimulation does not cause insomnia?
All plants, including the herbs I use, contain thousands upon thousands of physiologically active substances, all of which contribute to the herb's effects. Any substance that is isolated from an herb will exhibit only some of the properties of the whole herb, and the properties of combinations of constituents are more than the sum of their individual parts. Modern research on the constituents of the herbs informs my formulations, but since the herbs I use all have a long history of traditional use as whole herbs, I use polar extracts of the herbs rather than their isolated constituents.
Insomnia can have many causes, many of them psychological and not linked to ingestion of any specific substance. If you can find and treat the cause of the insomnia that is the best possible option, but that is a rare occasion.
As for plants, or their extracts, containing thousands of different substances: This is absolutely true, but it also complicates matters. Most of these substances will be inert or simple dietary sources of energy, the ones that exhibit any neural activity can beneficial, or detrimental.
One extreme example would be the digitalis plant, from which digoxin is extracted as a medication for certain heart conditions. Eating the whole plant to get sufficient levels of digoxin would probably be fatal since it produces a more than one active substance, and some of the others are a bit less friendly and a bit more deadly compared to the one you want.
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I'm currently experimenting with GHB, sleep onset is good but I wake up too fast. Seroquel works pretty good if you can survive the first 2 weeks of feeling like a zombie lol (I started at 25mg and currently take 100mg for sleep), maybe the XR version might do the trick. I also take fish oil, 5mg of melatonin, and NAC at night. It's a bitch figuring out a good sleep cocktail, best of luck man.
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Melatonin and/or 5-HTP, ambient or downtempo, chill music, relaxation techniques (deep breathing, positive thinking, yoga, stretching, meditation, etc), and a good exercise regime have all done wonders for me.
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Kratom especially Red Vein Borneo/Bali/Indo varieties. Really takes the edge off and helps with sleep and RLS.
Must have to keep around.
Plus it's great for withdrawals and stomach aches. Decent pain relief as well.
Super medicinal, and goes great with pot.
Vanquish
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GHB has not been mentioned here yet. Works excellently for this application.
Dosage should determined by experimentation - will be in the 1g - 3g range. You should take the lowest amount possible that is just enough to tip you over edge to allow natural sleep to happen.
This is sustainable and will tend to entrain your brain to start falling asleep naturally especially if you take it at a similar time every night (assuming your life is routine enough for that). In time you will find that you need less and less, rather than becoming dependent on it for sleep.
It will also allow and support the full process of natural sleep (stages 1-4 and REM), rather than simply making you "unconscious", which is very different physiologically to actual sleep.
Further questions - just ask...
BG
I would highly advice against using GHB to fall a sleep, plenty of people slip into coma's and die that way. I have even saved some people that were going to die if it wasn't for me to safe their ass.
I have no idea what the dosage is with powder since i have only had my hands on liquid.
My advice would be: Wake up early, go to work / workout / jog for a few miles, just so that your body is tired at night. Also don't watch tv in your bed or anything else besides sleeping (and wrestling with your wife/husband)
Tosh on the coma stuff. No-one in the history of the universe has ever died from taking "too much" GHB alone. Combined with other CNS depressants at high doses for sure it can be potentially dangerous. But on it's own at the kind of doses used for sleep it is 100% safe.
Your other advice was great...
BG
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I'm currently experimenting with GHB, sleep onset is good but I wake up too fast. Seroquel works pretty good if you can survive the first 2 weeks of feeling like a zombie lol (I started at 25mg and currently take 100mg for sleep), maybe the XR version might do the trick. I also take fish oil, 5mg of melatonin, and NAC at night. It's a bitch figuring out a good sleep cocktail, best of luck man.
If you're waking up too fast it often indicates that your initial dose is too high. Try take the smallest amount possible that just pushes you over edge...
BG
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Weed is MUCH better than benzos, for sure, but can supress dreaming and over a long term really does turn people in to dopey forgetful lazy losers. Every now and then it's fine, probably for even longer than benzos.
Vape don't smoke though. Invest in a high quality vaporiser.
Thanks for reminding me, I should get some more too.
I concur. When I smoked cannabis heavily I realized the dream-killing effect and have always been very wary of that. It must have some degree of negative consequences when you never remember your dreams. Other than that, it is very benign in my opinion, but the dream thing makes me think twice about abusing it chronically.
Also you are correct that the only sustainable solutions for sleep issues are the least "easy" and also the cheapest. That said, magic drugs definitely work like magic for a while. But it is unsustainable. I would include benzodiazepines, opioids, alcohol and cannabis in this category. All of these drugs have many good uses, but chronic use to induce sleep is not going to end well.
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Also you are correct that the only sustainable solutions for sleep issues are the least "easy" and also the cheapest. That said, magic drugs definitely work like magic for a while. But it is unsustainable. I would include benzodiazepines, opioids, alcohol and cannabis in this category. All of these drugs have many good uses, but chronic use to induce sleep is not going to end well.
Agreed and well said, +1.
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Anyone already mentioned sex?
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No, but you are right to mention it, as, at least for men, it does have a sleep promoting effect.
This effect is not strong enough to overcome serious insomnia however. It may make you fall asleep before you had fallen asleep on your own naturally by an hour or two, but it will not put anyone to sleep that suffers from serious insomnia and would hardly sleep at all regardless of having sex.
I suppose we should make a distinction between things that are sleep aids, and things that will put you to sleep whether you want them to or not (strong narcotics).
Things like sex, 50 mg benadryl, a bottle of wine or 20 mg of valium are essentially sleep aids. They may help you fall asleep, but you can fight them if you want to (individually, not all 4 combined perhaps). People that suffer from serious insomnia do not fight them willingly, but often do a better job of it compared to non-patients trying their best regardless.
Strong narcotics are substances you cannot fight - they will put you to sleep if you like it or not. In large doses alcohol certainly is one of them, but at such doses using it regularly is taxing on the liver and brain. Another example would be IV propofol, which is often used to induce narcosis for surgical procedures, and puts you out within seconds regardless if you fight it or not. Solvent inhalation can be strongly narcotic too, although its mechanism of action is often just displacing oxygen to the point where you faint.
All that said, there really is no solution for those that suffer from serious insomnia. Substances that are sleep aids do not work, and strong narcotics become ineffective over time and/or pose severe health risk. Producing a substance that would put anyone out cold without any harm would instantly make you one of the richest people that ever lived - but it seems impossible.
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I'd have to put my vote in for hydroxyzine and/or melatonin. Although melatonin gives me really awkward dreams after a while....
I'd say benadryl but I only take it if I plan on sleeping 9 or more hours.
I love hydroxyzine because it takes away my allergy irritations and my anxiety. I can take it and decide whether I want to sleep or not.
As for the weed dream killing affect, I experienced that for about a year. And then my dreams started flowing back to me. Vivid colorful, almost lucid dreams.
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Melatonin does nothing for me. I can down a bottle of a hundred doses of that without any effect at all. Perhaps it would be effective it somehow ended up in my brain, but taking it orally does not seem to produce any effect.
As far as antihistamines being useful, i fully agree on them doing what they are supposed to do. I am allergic to mosquito bites, and taking diphenhydramide (or cetirize, doxylamine etc) is a very effective treatment for the allergic reaction itself. I might have died if not for those antihistamines.
But the question here would be how good of a narcotic they actually are. And i'ld personally state that by themselves, they are not very good ones. Taking something like 200 mg benadryl does not put me to sleep, although i may lapse into daydreams at such doses.
Combined with alcohol the sleep inducing properties go much further, and i have even experienced some mild hallucinations on the combination. This may seem like something interesting to explore, but i doubt you will like the morning after.
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I suffer the same as the OP. If you don't have the problem, its hard to understand. For me its like the sleep switch won't turn on unless I use Ativan. Even when I'm not thinking of a bunch of things, I can not get to sleep. It just doesn't happen.
I can't use anything heavier like Xanax. I've tried every single one of the remedies mentioned (except special blend herbs) and none work. I mostly use a very small dose, .5.
I would love to find a natural remedy because I believe all the years of Ativan have adversely affected my memory, intelligence and cognitive functions.
I'm thinking of visiting a compounding pharmacist. I saw one years ago and he worked some good magic. I don't know why I didn't speak to one about it a long time ago. <<<See? Duh! :-)
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Why would you think ativan has damaged your brain to the point where you lose cognitive functions?
It can surely impair cognitive function when you are on it, but there is no reason to believe this loss of function is permanent. You should recover to your previous state when you stop it quite quickly. This is not comparable to, for example, long term alcohol abuse that actually does physical damage to the nervous system resulting in irreversible syndromes like korsakov.
The problem is that you cannot actually verify this: If you were to stop taking ativan, your insomnia would get worse to the point that you would be cognitively impaired from sleep deprivation - possible worse compared to the effects of ativan.
If your main issue is falling asleep rather than staying asleep, i would suggest getting a very short acting benzodiazepine instead. Midazolam may be a good choice, as would oxazepam or triazolam. These may be more difficult to obtain on SR or otherwise, but if you are being treated with ativan by a physician, you could ask for a change in treatment regimen with those drugs.
The goal would mainly be to get a hypnotic effect that is as good as your current lorazepam provides you, but from a substances with a shorter half life so that most of it has been cleared from your system by morning.
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I would love to find a natural remedy because I believe all the years of Ativan have adversely affected my memory, intelligence and cognitive functions.
Interesting.
Have you tried Kratom or Kava Kava?
I find Kratom especially handy for falling asleep.
It allows me to enter a trance like state of relaxation and it feels natural and mixes extremely well with cannabis.
The Red Vein varieties especially, RVB/Indo/Bali etc.
Great for headaches, stomachaches, chronic pain, insomnia, depression, anxiety, coming down, etc.
Extremely medicinal just like Marijuana.
The stuff should be in everyone's toolkit, as it's extremely versatile and a lifesaver in a pinch.
Took my 2 year Suboxone maintenance withdrawals and smacked them in their ass.
If you need more recommendations, or vendor suggestions feel free to shoot me a PM.
Oh, and about the Ativan, how long have you been taking it and at what dosage?
Thanks, and +1.
Vanquish
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You've got a good point there. I used to be able to remember everything and I mean everything. I was very sharp. As you said, how would I know if there is permanent damage if I have not gotten off of them? And yes I do have trouble staying asleep too. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try anything.
Why would you think ativan has damaged your brain to the point where you lose cognitive functions?
It can surely impair cognitive function when you are on it, but there is no reason to believe this loss of function is permanent. You should recover to your previous state when you stop it quite quickly. This is not comparable to, for example, long term alcohol abuse that actually does physical damage to the nervous system resulting in irreversible syndromes like korsakov.
The problem is that you cannot actually verify this: If you were to stop taking ativan, your insomnia would get worse to the point that you would be cognitively impaired from sleep deprivation - possible worse compared to the effects of ativan.
If your main issue is falling asleep rather than staying asleep, i would suggest getting a very short acting benzodiazepine instead. Midazolam may be a good choice, as would oxazepam or triazolam. These may be more difficult to obtain on SR or otherwise, but if you are being treated with ativan by a physician, you could ask for a change in treatment regimen with those drugs.
The goal would mainly be to get a hypnotic effect that is as good as your current lorazepam provides you, but from a substances with a shorter half life so that most of it has been cleared from your system by morning.
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Hi! I have tried Kratom but only for a few days and I bought it at a head shop so I don't know how good the quality was. Kava Kava I tried long ago but will put it on my list to try again.
I've been on the Ativan for almost 15 years. My dosage has varied but hovered around 1mg. Currently using .05 but I wake up a lot with that dose so some days, I use 1mg.
+1 right back at cha! Thank you for the offer to PM you for info. You will probably be hearing from me.
I would love to find a natural remedy because I believe all the years of Ativan have adversely affected my memory, intelligence and cognitive functions.
Interesting.
Have you tried Kratom or Kava Kava?
I find Kratom especially handy for falling asleep.
It allows me to enter a trance like state of relaxation and it feels natural and mixes extremely well with cannabis.
The Red Vein varieties especially, RVB/Indo/Bali etc.
Great for headaches, stomachaches, chronic pain, insomnia, depression, anxiety, coming down, etc.
Extremely medicinal just like Marijuana.
The stuff should be in everyone's toolkit, as it's extremely versatile and a lifesaver in a pinch.
Took my 2 year Suboxone maintenance withdrawals and smacked them in their ass.
If you need more recommendations, or vendor suggestions feel free to shoot me a PM.
Oh, and about the Ativan, how long have you been taking it and at what dosage?
Thanks, and +1.
Vanquish
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You should give some high quality real high potency kratom. The stuff from the head shops is almost completely devoid of mitragynine the main alkaloid.
It's not expensive, but it can be habit forming due to how well it works.
As long as you don't have a gigantic opiate tolerance it should be pleasant.
I really like it, and it mixes well with lots of things.
Give it a shot.
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I will definitely check it out. I guess I have to wait until I have 100 posts for that +1. Thanks a bunch!!!
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Zolpidem is the BEST for a quick long nice sleep. It works in your GABA receptors. Not a benzo.
Down the road Tryptamine's Chill pill is great.
I would suggest a Chill pill and later Zolpidem when you want to pass out. And wake up amazingly fresh.
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You've got a good point there. I used to be able to remember everything and I mean everything. I was very sharp. As you said, how would I know if there is permanent damage if I have not gotten off of them? And yes I do have trouble staying asleep too.
There are several things that affect your experience here: First of all, your idea that your memory is worse than in was before is entirely subjective. You would need to do a series of memory tests to actually show a difference, and i assume you have not done any before using benzo's, so there is nothing to compare your current state to.
Also, your memory changes as you age - and i don't mean geriatrics here, it changes all your life, also from, for example age 25 to 35. This change does not mean impairment, but sometimes just selectivity - as you gather more experience in life, less important events can get discarded and seem impossible to recall when asked to.
If you are worried about your mental capacities you could have them tested and compared to what is normal for your age, gender and living conditions. Subjective self-analysis really isn't any good. Perhaps free online tests could give you a bit of insight, although i must stress many of them are irreliable and mostly designed to lure you into purchasing a detailed report.
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If someone wants a benzo alternative to sleep, Zolpidem is NOT the answer. Sure, you're technically correct that it isn't a benzo, but it is chemically very similar to benzos, has a similar mechanism of action, and has similar issues with dependency and subsequent withdrawal. Its adverse cognitive effects should also scare off anyone who wants it just to sleep (as opposed to using it recreationally), ie serious memory loss etc.
If OP wants to avoid benzos, Z drugs like Ambien/Stilnox (Zolpidem) are NOT sound alternatives. Just another side of the same coin, really.
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That may be true, but what alternative would you consider?
Substances that work like benzo's, but strictly are not, like etozolam are the first to come to mind. Barbiturates may be a step up in potency, but also in risk.
Finding something that puts you to sleep legally and reliably is downright impossible, unless you consider alcohol. Given the longer terms of negative effects of alcohol i would not recommend that either, leaving a void that needs to be filled.
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You're shitting me, right? Hell, some of the 1st generation anti-histamines are great sleep aids. Doxylamine and diphenhydramine (benadryl) will do the job for most except perhaps chronic insomniacs - in which case the antihistamines may be of limited use, but then so would alcohol. Ambien, too, as it doesn't sustain sleep.
Ambien/Stilnox is very much a short term solution to insomnia, assuming you want to avoid dependency issues. I do agree that etizolam is less habit-forming than most benzos, but the risk profile is still there.
Straight up, if someone's trying to avoid benzos, zolpidem is really not a good alternative at all.
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If someone wants a benzo alternative to sleep, Zolpidem is NOT the answer. Sure, you're technically correct that it isn't a benzo, but it is chemically very similar to benzos, has a similar mechanism of action, and has similar issues with dependency and subsequent withdrawal. Its adverse cognitive effects should also scare off anyone who wants it just to sleep (as opposed to using it recreationally), ie serious memory loss etc.
If OP wants to avoid benzos, Z drugs like Ambien/Stilnox (Zolpidem) are NOT sound alternatives. Just another side of the same coin, really.
Technically since when did Zolpidem work in the same pathways as benzo's, it has no similar properties. Benzo'swork on the GHB pathways and zolpidem works 'almost' like a GHB.
Memory loss, shud I assume benzo's have no impact with memory loss? I THINK THE QUESTION IS which causes more.
Avoiding benzo's zolpidem is not right, cause they are VERY different,
And as for the health issues I was recommending ChillPill by Tryptamine, as it's combination of Ashwagandha to Valerial roots and the addition Vitamin B12,it will take off the negative effects which is caused by the benzo or zolpidem.And the inclusion of Noopept it will decrease memory loss.
Say with regard to the OP's question I would say my remedy is far effective.
ChillPill24-Bottle: http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad/item/4dc5679867
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You're shitting me, right? Hell, some of the 1st generation anti-histamines are great sleep aids. Doxylamine and diphenhydramine (benadryl) will do the job for most except perhaps chronic insomniacs - in which case the antihistamines may be of limited use, but then so would alcohol. Ambien, too, as it doesn't sustain sleep.
Which is exactly the problem. If you are not suffering from some form of chronic sleep disorder, downing 50 mg of diphenhydramide with a bottle of beer is more than likely to put you to sleep. Even less-drowsy newer antihistaminics such as cetirize have that effect, i've seen people go down from just 10 mg cetirizine without any alcohol involved at all.
Insomnia is a more difficult situation however: you'd basically need a drug, or combination of drugs, that would put you out cold even if you are fighting it is best you can to accomplish the task. Combine that with tolerance, and you are up for a serious battle.
I suppose it is difficult to explain to anyone not suffering from this problem, but the amount of intoxication required to put an insomniac out cold is just insane comparable to the average person. Insomnia sometimes comes down to fighting sleep to a degree someone not suffering from it could not possibly muster... but not voluntarily so.
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I'm sure you're correct, but we don't know if OP is a chronic insomniac. All I can say is that if they're looking for a benzo alternative sleep aid, that would suggest to me that they have concerns regarding the side effects of benzos, which is why they're seeking to avoid them. In that case, Ativan would be a foolish alternative even though "it's not a benzo". I don't think this is a particularly controversial observation.
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For those like me all these suggestions do not work.
Alcohol
Antihistamines
Ambien, Lunesta, Rozerem
Weed<< but it helps to facilitate the benzo
OTC Melatonin
Doxepin
@Vanquish, I ordered some high potency Kratom to try and it made me have nightmare like thoughts with the weed I was smoking. No more of that for me. It also kept me up all night! I can't believe it. I was actually laughing at the irony.
I'm going to try Kava kava next.
Thanks for your suggestions. I didn't mean to high jack the thread. Guess I did though. Apologies to OP.
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Insomnia comes in many forms, some of which are quite easily treated with simple remedies, while others are virtually untreatable.
In some cases people resort to the most drastic of measures, which can be effective but also dangerous.
I suppose one interesting example of going to extremes is Michael Jackson. Besides taking benzo's in serious quantities, he resorted to having propofol administered IV.
For those unfamiliar with it, propofol is often used when inducing narcosis for surgery, and it really is fast and effective. Doctors often ask the patient to count down from 10 at the moment of administration, and most do not make it to 7 (or swiks). For those that have had surgery done, it's the substance that produces that nastly stingy sensation in your arm just before you pass out.
The problem is that this cannot really be self-administered. You could theoretically inject yourself with propofol IV, but if you tried you would wake up with the syringe still in your vein since you'll be out before you have a chance to remove it. You're down in 3 seconds, not a minute.
Another option would be to use nitrous oxide gas, which you could breathe in from a balloon until you pass out. It would have to be a rather large balloon to actually knock you unconscious - the amount in a 'standard' balloon is enough to get you acting dumb and all (its called lauging gas for that reason) , but insufficient to put your lights out. I suppose this would be a safer alternative as you'd probably just awake with a large balloon beside you in bed, but at least not a needle in your arm that may do some serious damage as you toss and turn.
Downside of both approaches is, however, that they will have very detrimental effects in the medium-to-long run. This seems to be an everlasting problem however: there just is no way to reliably put any person suffering from serious insomnia to sleep on a daily basis without serious damage over a fairly short (maybe months) amount of time.
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Ben, I'll send you a free sample of my ChillPill in exchange for a review (be it positive or negative).
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I would be interested in trying it and give a review about it.
However, what kind of test are you looking for? Comparison to placebo, to something like 10 mg diazepam, 50 mg benadryl, or perhaps a different test where i take it in the morning and see if it actually knock my out at times few other things would?
If you want it to be against placebo i suppose you need to send at least 2 capsules, one with the active ingredients in it, and an other that contains some inert substance.
Also, it would actually require 2 identical looking capsules in any case, so that i can take one of t hem and have the other analyzed for actual content if any odd effects occur. This is mainly a safeguard - if they prove to have any narcotic effect i'd like to be able to analyze the contents to verify it doesn't actually contain any typical narcotic.
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Nearly all of my reviews are based on 'open-label' use, so I'd be willing to try a placebo-controlled trial. The 'placebo' would contain ~570mg refined sugar (or odorless pseudo-inert substance of your choice) along with 20mg each of holy basil and damiana extracts (or else the distinctive odor of the ChillPill would unblind the trial).
I will send you 3 chillpills and 3 placebos. Take one capsule 1-2 hours prior to going to bed. The following night take one capsule from the other bag. Record your (approximate) sleep latency and energy level in the morning. If you find that there was no difference between the capsules, take both remaining capsules on subsequent nights; otherwise, continue taking one at a time.
If you're unable to fall asleep within an hour of going to bed, feel free to use whatever sleep aid you would normally have taken.
Also: insomnia is in many cases related to disruptions in the circadian rhythm of melatonin, from excessive exposure to artificial lighting (in particular glowing screens) after sundown. To eliminate a potential circadian contribution to insomnia (which would differ between nights), it would be best if you also took ~1mg of melatonin on all trial nights.
As for analyzing the content of the capsules, what did you have in mind? Do you have a GC/MS or other analytical equipment? If so, I'd send an extra capsule to have it tested; if you're just using a colorimetric reagent, open the capsule and pour out a bit of powder.
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Use this listing:
http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad/item/38a69cf3c6
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Apart from OTC stuff (antihistamines - promethazine, diphenhydramine), the current favourite is the family of Z drugs, which are still habit forming and work on the same GABA receptors as benzos. I take them (zopiclone) for up to 6 weeks at a time, and then have some time off - sometimes as long or even longer off. There is always at least 2 days of rebound insomnia when stopping taking zopiclone for me, so I always stop on a Friday. I usually only start taking it again if I'm in an unusual setting (e.g. holiday or staying somewhere strange), or if I have stayed up so late on the computer, and it's 3am, and I know I'm too buzzed to get to sleep, so I might not get to sleep 'til 4am or even later, and I have to be up for work. So I take the zopiclone at 3am to make sure I'm right off to sleep. That's usually the start of an at-least-6-weeks nightly zopiclone "habbit" though (it just seems easier to carry on taking it IYSWIM).
Other than that, first generation tricyclic antidepressants tend to be prescribed. I can't quite remember for sure, but I think trazodone is used for sleep, and might induce harder erections which could be cool, and also maybe amitriptyline. You'd have to check up on that though. Both are available from a reliable well known Internet pharmacy.
Melatonin doesn't make you drowsy but I suspect it can help you feel more refreshed in the morning, and have a bit of a placebo effect too. I had some of it but ran out and haven't been bothered about getting more - I read that it can do good things in combination with buspirone, which I take.
I would try to avoid all benzos except diazepam if possible. The shorter acting ones are so much more problematic for the nervous system in my experience. Diazepam is a bit weak for anxiety - the level of drowsiness vs. anxiolytic effect is poor, i.e. to prevent panic attacks you have to take a dose that makes you drowsy, unlike, say clonazepam which eliminates anxiety but is relatively unimpairing of mental functionality, and it's not so dope-inducing to be a good sleeping pill (unlike temazepam which knocks you out nicely and leaves the system at about the right time), but it's slow onset and offset makes it much safer to take somewhat-regularly than the other benzos.
Regarding zopiclone, the special thing about it is that the typical 7.5mg dose leaves the system after about exactly 8 hours, and when it leaves the system, you just wake right up! I sometimes feel a bit floaty for the rest of the day, but that's always nice. On the other hand, if you take only half a tablet, which I often try to do in an effort to avoid dependance, i.e taking as little as possible, well, it seems to leave the system after half the time, so you wake up after only 4 hours!
Anyway, hope you find something. I find zopiclone to be good. I sort of like the metalic taste. Do not purposely stay awake after taking it. Definitely do not stay awake after taking it and drinking alcohol. You'll do weird shit and you'll have no memory of it (doing things, going places, sending messages, etc.).
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Reading a book has always sent me to sleep too BTW. I haven't tried in quite a while though.
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If someone wants a benzo alternative to sleep, Zolpidem is NOT the answer. Sure, you're technically correct that it isn't a benzo, but it is chemically very similar to benzos, has a similar mechanism of action, and has similar issues with dependency and subsequent withdrawal. Its adverse cognitive effects should also scare off anyone who wants it just to sleep (as opposed to using it recreationally), ie serious memory loss etc.
If OP wants to avoid benzos, Z drugs like Ambien/Stilnox (Zolpidem) are NOT sound alternatives. Just another side of the same coin, really.
You're right, and they shouldn't be taken for more than a few months at a time unless you want the *possibility* of benzo-like withdrawal problems. Short term (few days) rebound insomnia is guaranteed for sure upon discontinuation of even a 2 week course.
Don't forget though, that all of the benzodiazepines also cause amnesia when mixed with alcohol, and possibly without too. This is the method of action of rohypnol as a date-rape-drug, but the same applies to xanax with alcohol, and all the other benzos and non-benzo gaba-affecting chemicals, to varying degrees.
All I can say is that if they're looking for a benzo alternative sleep aid, that would suggest to me that they have concerns regarding the side effects of benzos, which is why they're seeking to avoid them. In that case, Ativan would be a foolish alternative even though "it's not a benzo".
I suspect you meant to say Ambien (american name for one of the z-drugs. I love how they're called Z-drugs BTW - zzzzzzzzz sleep :) ),
Ativan (lorazepam) is indeed a benzo. A fast acting one at that, and definitely best avoided. It was my first experience of an actual benzo dependance that I wasn't even aware of until the doctor pointed out that my state (uncontrollable tears during the consultation) was obvious benzo dependance. I switched to diazepam and tapered slowly, using strawberry flavored liquid diazepam from a needleless syringe and reducing the dose every second week by a milliliter of the juice (which equated to something like 0.2mg of diazepam every two weeks - was easy).
I've been on the Ativan for almost 15 years. My dosage has varied but hovered around 1mg. Currently using .05 but I wake up a lot with that dose so some days, I use 1mg.
I wonder if this is the root of your problems. Ativan is quick-in, and quick-out. The nervous system really notices when it's goes away.
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Ghb and/or ketamine/mxe (over)doses work perfectly! ;)
Excersice (yugh)
When I smoke weed I feel more comfy in bed but time till sleep takes longer.
Melatonine only works if you don't make enough yourself, and even then it just takes a few minutes away from time until asleep...
What also helps is not thinking you need a minimum of 8+ hours. 6 is good enough. Then if you only get 6 then you wont be stressed about it. Some hot milk, chocolate..
Enough info that (does not) work online ;)
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after getting (over?)-involved in this thread, I looked at Wikipedia's Ativan article, and then I looked at the insomnia article too.
Then realized how good they were (the articles).
For the 15-year Ativan user, please read the second paragraph (lorazepam specific) of the "Tolerance and Dependance" section of Wikipedia's lorazepam page. Second paragraph of this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorazepam#Tolerance_and_dependence
For the original poster with the insomnia problem, please read the wikipedia page on insomnia, specifically the Treatment -> medications section (kind of on topic for this site), or the general treatment section if you're open to non-medical remedies as well.
We all appear to know nothing that Wikipedia didn't already know (except I think a previous poster mentioned Kava Kava), which disappoints me greatly considering I thought I was giving advice/knowledge that took me some time and experience to find out,.. but nevermind! ;)
For me, benzos should always be on hand, but they should be seen as an emergency treatment. One should feel a sense of self-disappointment for having to resort to them, have an ultimate aim of being able to survive without them, and always work towards that aim.
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Use this listing:
http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad/item/38a69cf3c6
I just did. To be clear, for me to draw any conclusions i would need 2 capsules of active and placebo at the very least. These capsules should be identifiable as being identical to me. I do not need to know which set are placebo and which set are not, just which ones are identical to the other. So if i find an effect for one of them, i have another identical pill (placebo or active doesnt matter) to have it analyzed.
I do not have the equipment at home to detect the substances, but can call in a favour easily to have a the samples examined for common narcotics using ir/uv/vis spectroscopy as well as hplc with uv/vis detection, and, if need be, nmr.
I will not use this to discredit you in any way, only to verify that the active capsules (if they work) do not contain pharmaceutical narcotics along with any herbal ingredients.
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Get some Xanax, the bars which are the 2 mg and break in half to start.
Snort the Xanax and take Tylenol PMs with it.
Knocks you right the FUCK out!
Just be careful because you are going to run out of Xanax eventually (until you purchase more) and when you start your tolerance of taking two bars a night to sleep, then its time to go down.
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You do realize that snorting xanax is not more effective that just swallowing the tablets, right?
Virtually all benzodiazepines are absorbed in the gut - there is no reason to snort them, and chewing them down doesn't do much either: perhaps the onset in marginally faster if you do so on an empty stomach, but otherwise it'll just be unpleasant with no benefit at all.
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Melatonin doesn't make you drowsy but I suspect it can help you feel more refreshed in the morning, and have a bit of a placebo effect too. I had some of it but ran out and haven't been bothered about getting more - I read that it can do good things in combination with buspirone, which I take.
Melatonin works great for me. Stay clear of any stimulants well before bedtime, and after taking it stay off of computers, tv, and reduce or eliminate ambient light. Use it daily and at the same time so your body adjusts to this circadian rhythm.
-PB
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I wonder if it is the melatonin working then - all the other stuff is good advise and would for numerous people as-is.
Apart from the obvious point of taking no stimulants that will still be active by the time you will want to fall asleep, avoiding looking at computer or tv screens, or ambient light, is a bit if a tricky thing. You cannot do anything online, cannot watch tv, and probably not even read a book as that requires some light too.
Perhaps is it possible to be bored to sleep, i just wonder how long it would take ;)
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I wonder if it is the melatonin working then - all the other stuff is good advise and would for numerous people as-is.
Apart from the obvious point of taking no stimulants that will still be active by the time you will want to fall asleep, avoiding looking at computer or tv screens, or ambient light, is a bit if a tricky thing. You cannot do anything online, cannot watch tv, and probably not even read a book as that requires some light too.
Perhaps is it possible to be bored to sleep, i just wonder how long it would take ;)
Honestly a book and an easily switch-off-able bedside lamp is just fine. You start reading, after a little while your eyelids get heavy and you just click the bedside lamp off right at the moment you feel the eyelids start to get heavy, and go with it.
TV, music and computers are definitely are no-no though.
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I'm not that sure about music really: In dire situations such as on aircraft plugging in some earbuds and playing a list of tracks i like does seem to help. The important thing is to set it on infinite repeat though, otherwise you'll probably be awakened by the lack of sound once the playlist runs out.
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I've had sleep issues for most of my life and I think you are asking the wrong question.
Sure take Melatonin for sleep -but what you should be asking is about waking up. Take armodafinil right when you wake up in the morning. In fact, just set your alarm and have an armodafinil pill by your bed with a glass of water. When your alarm goes off -just take the pill and go back to sleep. You will wake up without tiredness.
Which is the point -right?
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Kratom is really useful, been using it for 5 years now. It can be tricky to find a strain and a dosage that works well for what you want it to do, and tolerance builds pretty noticeably if you use it every day. For a while years back I was getting regular bouts of sleep paralysis/half-awake nightmares and all of that fun stuff. It only happened on nights overdid it on kratom.
I don't take it every day like I used to but have tried lots of different strains/extracts and a half to full teaspoon of white vein indo/red vein indo seems to fit best. Relaxing, and goes well with a little alcohol and weed.
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Kratom is really useful, been using it for 5 years now. It can be tricky to find a strain and a dosage that works well for what you want it to do, and tolerance builds pretty noticeably if you use it every day. For a while years back I was getting regular bouts of sleep paralysis/half-awake nightmares and all of that fun stuff. It only happened on nights overdid it on kratom.
I don't take it every day like I used to but have tried lots of different strains/extracts and a half to full teaspoon of white vein indo/red vein indo seems to fit best. Relaxing, and goes well with a little alcohol and weed.
Amen. Kratom is truly a miracle plant. The most medicinal plant imo, besides Cannabis of course.
I find my tolerance stays pretty relative, though I usually take the same dosage 3x per day.
Energetic strains in the morning, and Red Veins/Bali at night. Mix in some Green Malay or Green Vein Borneo for longer legs.
For tolerance, Ashwagandha is a god send. Taking 3 grams will really negate any tolerance build up.
Plus you are absolutely right, it's one of the best things ever to mix with Cannabis.
The medicinal benefits are crazy good, it's safe to mix with almost anything, and the only negative is physical addiction.
Plus it's extremely cost effective if you're ordering it directly from Indonesia.
I fucking love kratom!
Vanquish
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Cannabis (indica or close) or melatonin work for me. I dont do pharma stuff.
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I wonder if it is the melatonin working then - all the other stuff is good advise and would for numerous people as-is.
Apart from the obvious point of taking no stimulants that will still be active by the time you will want to fall asleep, avoiding looking at computer or tv screens, or ambient light, is a bit if a tricky thing. You cannot do anything online, cannot watch tv, and probably not even read a book as that requires some light too.
Perhaps is it possible to be bored to sleep, i just wonder how long it would take ;)
The things I listed are a good things to do for getting to sleep, in addition to exercise, drinking plenty of water, a good diet, meditation, etc. The melatonin is an extra step to assist in getting a desired circadian rhythm, but can be made useless through excitation of the body or mind, or high ambient light.
For anyone that doesn't know, melatonin is naturally produced in the body to tell it "it's time for sleep". The body always wants to produce melatonin, but the production is inhibited by light (natural or man-made) passing into the eyes.
I read with a lower-wattage lamp at bedtime with no problem.
I recommend anyone to try it. I use 1mg / night when I feel I need it. It has to be used on consecutive days and around the same time. Melatonin supplements are for re-adjusting circadian rhythms, not for putting you to sleep at wholly unnatural times.
-PB
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Which still comes down to the placebo effect really. If melatonin really was that good a sleep inducing agent, shouldn't a 100 or 1000 times the dose you suppose is effective knock me out cold?
The evidence that oral melatonine has any effect at all is very slim, at best.
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Amen. Kratom is truly a miracle plant. The most medicinal plant imo, besides Cannabis of course.
I find my tolerance stays pretty relative, though I usually take the same dosage 3x per day.
Energetic strains in the morning, and Red Veins/Bali at night. Mix in some Green Malay or Green Vein Borneo for longer legs.
For tolerance, Ashwagandha is a god send. Taking 3 grams will really negate any tolerance build up.
Plus you are absolutely right, it's one of the best things ever to mix with Cannabis.
The medicinal benefits are crazy good, it's safe to mix with almost anything, and the only negative is physical addiction.
Plus it's extremely cost effective if you're ordering it directly from Indonesia.
I fucking love kratom!
Vanquish
So pardon me if this comes off as threadjacking, but what are your physical withdrawal symptoms? I have never experienced physical addiction with kratom before but have a friend who gets sucked into it pretty rapidly. I've watched him withdraw from it before and though it wasn't opiate-level wd symptoms he did appear to be extremely uncomfortable and irritable as fuck for a few days. Dude always has stomach problems though so it was hard to gauge in that respect.
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So pardon me if this comes off as threadjacking, but what are your physical withdrawal symptoms? I have never experienced physical addiction with kratom before but have a friend who gets sucked into it pretty rapidly. I've watched him withdraw from it before and though it wasn't opiate-level wd symptoms he did appear to be extremely uncomfortable and irritable as fuck for a few days. Dude always has stomach problems though so it was hard to gauge in that respect.
I use Stem and Vein to completely negate my withdrawal symptoms.
Plus I take Kratom almost every day, so really the breakthrough withdrawals are very similar to 40-80mg of Hydrocdone.
You may find my Short Comprehensive Guide to Kratom helpful.
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=207409.0
Vanquish
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happy to see this thread is still going. lots of useful info in here. personally whats worked in the last few months is taking melatonin around 11pm, also big thing is completely cutting out benzos. i actually broke down and took one the other night after a long night of partying, but for the most part ive tried to cut them out completely and not use them as a crutch.
also valerian root but im not sure how much of an effect it has. i will have to try tryptamines pills also, thats been on my list.
thanks to all, i bet a lot of us could benefit from this thread!
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I know that this has probably been said multiple times already, but etizolam is a fantastic sleep aid/benzo substitute.
I've binged on etizolam twice (~200 mg over 3-4 weeks or so) and never got any withdrawal symptoms at all, even quitting cold turkey.
Xanax, on the other hand, has given me nasty withdrawals even after just 2 weeks of regular, lighter use.
There's actually numerous studies now that confirm the lack of physical dependence of etizolam vs. traditional benzodiazepines.
Another oddity of etizolam is that it becomes more effective with continued use, unlike pretty much every benzo which start building a tolerance the first time you take them.
Needless to say, etizolam is not a perfectly safe drug. If you push it way overboard, you can end up with awful withdrawals just like any benzo would do to you.
However, I'm welling to bet that it's the safest option for a fast acting sleep aid/anxiety medication available right now.
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I'm not really that convinced of the difference really.
Technically etizolam is not a benzodiazepine, but it's mechanism of action is the same. I would expect some cross tolerance between for example alprazolam and etizolam as well, where you could substitute one for the other keeping withdrawal at bay or desired effects in place.
That said, etizolam would not make a bad benzodiazepine if it was a true one at all. Time of onset is reasonable, and it is short lived - very good for a narcotic or a means to deal with anxiety for a situation you can see coming.
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I'm not really that convinced of the difference really.
Technically am is not a benzodiazepine, but it's mechanism of action is the same. I would expect some cross tolerance between for example alprazolam and etizolam as well, where you could substitute one for the other keeping withdrawal at bay or desired effects in place.
That said, etizolam would not make a bad benzodiazepine if it was a true one at all. Time of onset is reasonable, and it is short lived - very good for a narcotic or a means to deal with anxiety for a situation you can see coming.
There is some difference in the mechanism of action of thienodiazepines vs benzodiazepines. Although there is little data considering thienodiazepines are novel drugs, early research has shown that physical tolerance builds more slowly on etizolam than other benzos.
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When I was younger and in rehab, I was supplied Trazadone for sleeping. Apparently that medication is categorized as an anti-depressent, but the drowsiness side effect was so intense that it acted like a sleeping aid. I used to lie and say I grew a tolerance for it so they'd up my dose and man, towards the end of my stay I was getting like 4-5mg of the stuff nightly. Idk about the exact amount but it KNOCKED me out!
They say it's non habit-forming too so thats good. The only thing that worried me was the fact that Trazadone is an anti-depressent. I got really paranoid thoughts (my personality) thinking they only offered that as sleeping aid to alter my mindstate and subliminally influence me or some shit....I had fun staying up on it though although it's really hard to stay up. You get loopy as hell ahaha.
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I suppose most if not all narcotics build tolerance, and sometimes dependence.
I remember an event a long time ago where i found out that i am allergic to mosquito bites, and also to what extent. I was camping (not to be recommended) in eastern europe where the river danube had flooded a month or so before. This resulted in enormous amounts of mosquitos being around, biting the hell out of me in Slovakia.
A shot of epi saved me that night, but the doctor also prescribed me cetirizine to reduce effects of future attacks. In itself cetirizine is a pretty innocent antihistaminic, but when combined with alcohol it makes a very decent sedative. Obviously i was not told about this since the conversation was difficult due to the limited level of english for the doctor and my inability to speak the local language at all.
One thing i discovered was that taking a double dose of cetirizine combined with a bottle of wine proved to be an excellent narcotic.
Fast forward a couple of years and i discovered that cetirizne is a 'non drowsy' antihistaminic. Earlier generations of antihistaminics such as diphenhydramide proved to be much more potent as narcotics in combination with alcohol. Even with more potent drugs readily available to me at the moment, i still like the combination as a hypnotic today.
I would not recommend that you ever combine antihistaminica with alcohol though - for me it works pretty well, but it is also dangerous, something i was not aware off at the time.