Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: ~o~WaterWalker~o~ on September 04, 2013, 09:54 pm
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To make life easy for a lot of people to support the TOR network, what about a savvy security chap sets up as a vendor and takes orders of donations to set up more and more TOR relays?
I know there are some nice posts on it, and I am half tempted to just run some servers as relays in my home (not sure it that is a great idea), but I think it would be very popular from buyers/vendors/admins to throw some bitcoin at someone who focuses on setting up relays either in their home or on hosted services.
They don't have to give big details for security sake, but just a running total in their vendor page of how many relays they have running, ballpark costs, and of course they get a fee for their trouble.
Hell I might even do this if I read up on it... I have the starting capital and the time and technically this isn't illegal but people don't really want shout to the world they are doing this
thoughts? would 10 or 20 relays even make a difference? What would that cost a month? How popular do you think this could get? 100 relays?
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Intersting idea. How would the "savvy security chap" prove that he set up a relay using the money that the other person provided?
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The relay list is public. Everyone can just look it up.
Taking donations for this via SR would be pretty stupid though as it would make the legal act of receiving donations to run tor relays an illegal thing because SR gets its share of every donation and by that one is knowingly supporting a criminal organization.
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Suck me off and I'll give you a server... lol
On a serious note, read up on torproject.org, some 'sponsors' are running hundreds of servers.
I think your idea could work though. I've already thought about it in the past. One way could be to charge a subscription to access a bridge relay. These addresses are kept private if you want. Would just have to change IP addresses regularly and only 'tell' the new address to those paying the subscription.
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The relay list is public. Everyone can just look it up.
I think it's possible to run hidden relays. Obfuscated bridges are hidden from public, or they would get blocked in China instantly. And they probably function as relays too?
Though then it's not possible to prove that you actually used the BTC to set up a relay instead of buying weed with it.
Taking donations for this via SR would be pretty stupid though as it would make the legal act of receiving donations to run tor relays an illegal thing
Trusted members of the forum could do it without a vendor account. Then it's not illegal.
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I think your idea could work though. I've already thought about it in the past. One way could be to charge a subscription to access a bridge relay. These addresses are kept private if you want. Would just have to change IP addresses regularly and only 'tell' the new address to those paying the subscription.
Sweet, where do I sign up to pay you to deanonymize me?
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I think your idea could work though. I've already thought about it in the past. One way could be to charge a subscription to access a bridge relay. These addresses are kept private if you want. Would just have to change IP addresses regularly and only 'tell' the new address to those paying the subscription.
Sweet, where do I sign up to pay you to deanonymize me?
yeah seriously...
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And you think TOR is actually anonymous? By using it you've successfully narrowed yourself down to about 1% of drug deals and 0.01% of internet traffic.
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I was thinking of doing this too as I'm pretty ok with all things linux and have a bit of experience in that area.
I was thinking more of making a listing for "Buy TOR relay for 1 year with free setup" kind of thing.
I buy a vps for 1 year with BTC, setup the relay and pass on the credentials after it's setup and running.
Could be expensive however, 1 year vps up front could be at least $120 for decent spec.
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you guys know there is a Tor Project associated organization that takes donations, including anonymous BTC donations, and uses them to host Tor exit and other relays, correct?
https://www.torservers.net/donate.html
I would donate to them well before I would donate to a random noob on SR. I saw someone else with 18 posts in the newbie section offering to run relays for btc, seemed like although he could be legit he could very well just be scamming people as well. torservers.net is legit and the owner is in regular contact with all of the Tor devs. They already host 10% of the bandwidth of the entire Tor networ.
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@kmfkewm
You can't control in which country they set up those Tor nodes however. They might install a relay in the USA or UK with your money, because for Chinese dissidents this is enough.
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you guys know there is a Tor Project associated organization that takes donations, including anonymous BTC donations, and uses them to host Tor exit and other relays, correct?
https://www.torservers.net/donate.html
I would donate to them well before I would donate to a random noob on SR. I saw someone else with 18 posts in the newbie section offering to run relays for btc, seemed like although he could be legit he could very well just be scamming people as well. torservers.net is legit and the owner is in regular contact with all of the Tor devs. They already host 10% of the bandwidth of the entire Tor networ.
Can somebody else confirm the legitimacy of this organization?
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Thanks all for the discussion.. it really is a brainstorming of sorts
the torservers.net donations I will check out..
but- what if DPR used some of the vendor fees to either set up more relays or donate to torservers.net? Even if he added a new fee for it would that bother everyone? (I know the fees are high already from what I hear, just brainstorming)
also, there are SOME legal items on SR so just because something is sold on SR doesn't mean it is illegal besides skirting sales tax, etc.. but donations are free of sales tax anyway so it would be a legit anonymous way of contributing
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They already host 10% of the bandwidth of the entire Tor networ.
But that's sort of the problem. We need to diversify with more independent operators, who run relays and/or take donations.
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They already host 10% of the bandwidth of the entire Tor networ.
But that's sort of the problem. We need to diversify with more independent operators, who run relays and/or take donations.
Okay, where are these operators who take donations to run relays? If I could set mine up, I would but it seems way too complicated and your tutorial only scared me more. I don't have tons of money lying around but I want to help and have pretty much ruled out setting up a relay so how can I help? Do you support people donating to the link kmfkewm posted, https://www.torservers.net/donate.html?
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Torservers.net actually spread the donations amongst other non-profit organisation so they are not running all the servers themselves
How about we call on some vendors to make a percentage % donation of sales to torservers or some other relay group?? Even to tor project itself!
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The Chaos Computer Club also runs Tor relays and will take donations for it. They're based in Germany and run relays in several European countries. They're a large group of whitehat hackers and very trustworthy.
If you want to donate for their relays you first have to write a mail to anonymizer@ccc.de however. They probably won't take Bitcoins.
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We would to donate 1000$ a month minimum.
Last night we discussed the possibilities of an Open Source Project which could "proof" a tor relay is working and running for a minimum time and pays the creator accordingly.
But we did not get that far...
But creating an incentive to build relays and get paid in btc would grow the tor network tremendously and secure everybody
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We would to donate 1000$ a month minimum.
Last night we discussed the possibilities of an Open Source Project which could "proof" a tor relay is working and running for a minimum time and pays the creator accordingly.
But we did not get that far...
But creating an incentive to build relays and get paid in btc would grow the tor network tremendously and secure everybody
good post!
this is like the early 1900's in America. The ones that stand to profit end up paying for early growth in infrastructure to secure more profits, and then at some point it transitions to a tax on the users since that has grown enough to spread out the costs
(and hopefully never like the 2000's were it is all rife of over taxation and abuse)
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I think the best thing that could be done would be for SR to take donations to setup relays.
Think about it most users don't understand how TOR keeps SR alive and just get pissed off when the site is down.
While DPR's call to setup TOR relays on the main site homepage may get some attention I would be willing to bet the average SR user read two lines of it and said "This is too technical"
If there was a simple BTC address posted by DPR for donations to support relays I think it would work just better.
I would even be willing SR's lost profits during the downtime would have paid for quite a few so perhaps it's in their own interest to donate to these groups without our help
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I think the best thing that could be done would be for SR to take donations to setup relays.
While DPR's call to setup TOR relays on the main site homepage may get some attention I would be willing to bet the average SR user read two lines of it and said "This is too technical"
If there was a simple BTC address posted by DPR for donations to support relays I think it would work just better.
I would even be willing SR's lost profits during the downtime would have paid for quite a few so perhaps it's in their own interest to donate to these groups without our help
I really like this idea. Probably will never happen, but I'd donate in a heartbeat. As a vendor, I don't mind paying a big monthly fee if it's not supportable via donations alone.
Most vendors crave the enhanced security a personal tor relay provides but balk at the steep learning curve and technical jargon.
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I think the best thing that could be done would be for SR to take donations to setup relays.
Think about it most users don't understand how TOR keeps SR alive and just get pissed off when the site is down.
While DPR's call to setup TOR relays on the main site homepage may get some attention I would be willing to bet the average SR user read two lines of it and said "This is too technical"
If there was a simple BTC address posted by DPR for donations to support relays I think it would work just better.
I would even be willing SR's lost profits during the downtime would have paid for quite a few so perhaps it's in their own interest to donate to these groups without our help
Yes, goddamnit! DPR, take my fucking BTC and set up some relays, please!
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If there was a simple BTC address posted by DPR for donations to support relays I think it would work just better.
How about this one: 1GvVpDGM426bHp2eXwHzwDNqv8g2xyfznJ
https://www.torservers.net/donate.html
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If there was a simple BTC address posted by DPR for donations to support relays I think it would work just better.
How about this one: 1GvVpDGM426bHp2eXwHzwDNqv8g2xyfznJ
https://www.torservers.net/donate.html
How would I know my donation was actually going to be used to set up relays? Also, how exactly does money=more relays? Are they buying computers to set up relays on?
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Well if DPR + team are already running relays, they're not exactly going to tell everyone now are they?
Besides they would definitely be running a VPN and private bridge network of some sort just to access SR server assuming they don't have physical access.
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How would I know my donation was actually going to be used to set up relays? Also, how exactly does money=more relays? Are they buying computers to set up relays on?
Yes, they rent servers to run relays. Did you read the page? Look over the site? Torservers runs some of the biggest exit nodes, and their non-profit helps to fund several partner organizations that run relays.
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How would I know my donation was actually going to be used to set up relays? Also, how exactly does money=more relays? Are they buying computers to set up relays on?
Yes, they rent servers to run relays. Did you read the page? Look over the site? Torservers runs some of the biggest exit nodes, and their non-profit helps to fund several partner organizations that run relays.
Okay, I'll dig a little deeper. Thanks!
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I'm going to go a bit against the stream here, but I think the very first person that should donate is DPR.
It's not the users' or the vendors' task to provide for a working infrastructure. That's exactly what Silk Road is charging commission for!
Now, don't get me wrong. I think DPR is great, but sometimes people here forget that he's making millions of your drug purchases. Which is legit. But Silk Road is not delivering the service, it's getting paid for.
Thing is, I can very well imagine that DPR is taking measures to help TOR's network. Would be nice though to hear about it...
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Or you could donate yourself because you believe in freedom of speech
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Or you could donate yourself because you believe in freedom of speech
If I'd just have the extra money laying around, I would... after donating first to some other organizations that fight for freedom of speech and other things I believe are even more important :)
Been donating in another way, ever since I use TOR: I setup Vidalia as an inside relay and also let it run when I'm not at my computer or on SR. I know nothing big, but if everyone would do this, we could be streaming HD videos on TOR ;)
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I'm going to go a bit against the stream here, but I think the very first person that should donate is DPR.
It's not the users' or the vendors' task to provide for a working infrastructure. That's exactly what Silk Road is charging commission for!
Now, don't get me wrong. I think DPR is great, but sometimes people here forget that he's making millions of your drug purchases. Which is legit. But Silk Road is not delivering the service, it's getting paid for.
Thing is, I can very well imagine that DPR is taking measures to help TOR's network. Would be nice though to hear about it...
I agree. I appreciate that he started that little thread acknowledging it but it'd be nice to hear something else by now (maybe that he donated a couple thousand dollars haha).
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Been donating in another way, ever since I use TOR: I setup Vidalia as an inside relay and also let it run when I'm not at my computer or on SR. I know nothing big, but if everyone would do this, we could be streaming HD videos on TOR ;)
Thank you. +1
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I don't think DPR should do anything which shows in public where his money goes.
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Now, don't get me wrong. I think DPR is great, but sometimes people here forget that he's making millions of your drug purchases. Which is legit. But Silk Road is not delivering the service, it's getting paid for.
Ummm... When SR gets its commission the service has already been delivered... If it wasn't delivering the service, you'd not even be able to pay.
Also do you blame your grocery store for the roads you use to get there being bumpy?
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Ummm... When SR gets its commission the service has already been delivered... If it wasn't delivering the service, you'd not even be able to pay.
Also do you blame your grocery store for the roads you use to get there being bumpy?
SR service is a bit more than just being able to pay. It's the escrow service, the forums, but most importantly, the fact that vendors can communicate with their customers and see their orders. I've seen vendors close down, because they simply couldn't fulfill orders with TOR not working.
Your analogy of the supermarket doesn't really work because the supermarket is selling something and not just a platform for others to sell. Also, I wouldn't blame the grocery store for bumpy roads, just as I wouldn't blame SR for internet problems caused by my ISP.
However, if the parking lot of the supermarket was so bumpy, that I couldn't park my car, I would buy my groceries elsewhere. The last thing, I would do, is to donate money to some company to fix the supermarket's parking lot.
Yea yea, I know, this comparison also doesn't really work because TOR isn't part of SR and offers more than just shopping at SR, but you kinda get my point :)
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Ummm... When SR gets its commission the service has already been delivered... If it wasn't delivering the service, you'd not even be able to pay.
Also do you blame your grocery store for the roads you use to get there being bumpy?
SR service is a bit more than just being able to pay. It's the escrow service, the forums, but most importantly, the fact that vendors can communicate with their customers and see their orders. I've seen vendors close down, because they simply couldn't fulfill orders with TOR not working.
Your analogy of the supermarket doesn't really work because the supermarket is selling something and not just a platform for others to sell. Also, I wouldn't blame the grocery store for bumpy roads, just as I wouldn't blame SR for internet problems caused by my ISP.
However, if the parking lot of the supermarket was so bumpy, that I couldn't park my car, I would buy my groceries elsewhere. The last thing, I would do, is to donate money to some company to fix the supermarket's parking lot.
Yea yea, I know, this comparison also doesn't really work because TOR isn't part of SR and offers more than just shopping at SR, but you kinda get my point :)
That's a good point about SR being a platform. IMO they provide a valuable service. Your traffic and activities are encrypted while on SR which seems to be true. A built in tumbler when transfering in and transfering out coins. Although from recent studies and research in regards to Bitcoin tracing that tumbler is not enough to keep your coins anonymous nonetheless it's still a feature of the site. Also the enormous task of keeping this hidden service hidden if you will. That in itself could easily take up 50% of the DPR or the other developers time up. Could SR do some things better? Sure just like anything else but let's keep in mind what we're doing here. It's not exactly Ebay even though with the ease of purchasing drugs and the overall friendless amongst ppl here SR almost resembles it.
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LOL supermarket analogy, yeah I see your point but unless the door is closed or the long entry queue is too unberable then you still go in.
Even if police are out the front investigating a broken window - you still might enter but you might slow and turn to look first.