Silk Road forums
Discussion => Newbie discussion => Topic started by: zzzzzzzzzzzz on June 19, 2013, 10:33 pm
-
Lets talk about drug dogs and weed. Weed is the most popular illegal substance and dogs are the most popular detection tool USPS uses against weed. If we can defeat drug dogs consistently and 100% of the time, we can change the game. Lots of people before me have discussed it but I haven't ever heard anyone come right out and say they can beat the dogs 100% of the time, even if the package is right under his nose.
After you read about drug dogs and their capabilities, there are only two remaining questions before we can render them useless (or almost useless, anyway). Here are the questions that must be answered:
1. What is the absolute lower limit of particles that can be smelled by well trained drug dogs? ie: how sensitive are they? In scientific, measurable terms, where is the cutoff between what they can smell and what they can't. (p.s. just saying "really sensitive" is not helpful. There must be a lower limit by definition, even if it's 1 atom or 1 part per trillion.)
2. How can weed/drugs be packaged so it leaks less than what dogs can detect? MBBs and vacuum sealing are not enough. Packages still regularly get caught if sniffed.
It may take a lot of resources but a package can be made to be perfectly sterile on the outside. Therefore, if you can control the permeability, reduce it to zero leakage, and have a good seal -- we should be able to reduce emissions to somewhere below what dogs can detect.
Discuss
-
Maybe look around in the shipping section, I think a lot of that info is in there already. There were some detailed instructions about sealing it in mylar, washing the outside of the pack, submerging it in water to make sure there are no pinhole leaks, then drying it and sealing it in another mylar bag. And packaging in a separate room or building where no weed is stored. I think you're right it did say that even slight traces on the outside of the bag can alert the dog. I don't know, maybe the dogs are more prevalent for international shipments. Domestic shipments there don't seem to be many people complaining as long as stealth is good.
-
2. How can weed/drugs be packaged so it leaks less than what dogs can detect? MBBs and vacuum sealing are not enough. Packages still regularly get caught if sniffed.
Source for dog sniffing out heat sealed MBBs?
-
mcguire, no disrespect but yea.....I've read the shipping posts too. None of them address these exact questions, I don't think.
random - I don't have a source but reading the news, there are plenty of packages sniffed and detected by USPS dogs. Do you think none of those are MBB's? I suppose that's possible but if it were 100% verifiable and true, I'd think it would be commonly discussed here. Everyone I see discussing it throws out a lot of "most of the time" or "99% of the time".....which is not good enough.
I want to be clear here: I am asking about 100% non-detection. As in, its not possible for the dog to smell contraband. I am not asking about "most" or "its fine if he's far enough away" or something like that. I am talking about an overall emissions level of the package being guaranteed to be below a dog's threshold. Think: nerve gas. If they can contain that shit where one sniff can kill you, then we can contain weed smell.
If we established that MBB's do this, I apologize for bringing it up. I didn't think MBB's were 100% undetectable by dogs but maybe I just didn't know.
-
Nothing is 100%. If it was, nobody would be caught. You have to understand that there is a risk to everything. If you are unwilling to accept those risks, than perhaps SR isn't for you.
-
Former LE dog-handler Barry Cooper has produced info materials you may find useful.
(easy to find)
-
Former LE dog-handler Barry Cooper has produced info materials you may find useful.
(easy to find)
thanks for the info, im on it !
-
I was just about to recommend Barry Cooper, who did the Never Get Busted series. Beat me to it. Pretty much all the info you could ever want on this topic is on those DVDs.
-
Dogs can smell cancer. With that being said, you can vacuum seal all you want. They are trained to smell anything..
-
Nothing is 100%. If it was, nobody would be caught. You have to understand that there is a risk to everything. If you are unwilling to accept those risks, than perhaps SR isn't for you.
Yea, of course. People get caught for all kinds of reasons. I am asking about one, specific, reason that maybe could be avoided if proper precautions are taken. And by "avoided", I mean "undetectable"......not lucky because the dog wasn't working that day.
My comfort level with SR isn't relevant.
-
You guys will be interested in this thread: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=33755.msg384857#msg384857
-
Dogs can smell cancer. With that being said, you can vacuum seal all you want. They are trained to smell anything..
Jazz, again no disrespect meant here.....but if that was true, then dogs wouldn't be able to walk near a nerve gas container or any other toxic chemical storage without dying instantly. Since we know people work around nerve gas and other dangerous chemicals all the time (the one sniff and you're dead kind), there seems to be some are left unexplored.
This is physics. There are substances in the world that we handle where there is -zero- leakage or emissions because they are lethal. Companies spend thousands and hundreds of thousands making sure they don't leak or have emissions. That is one end of the extreme. On the other extreme is "no packaging", which can be smelled a mile away. Vendors selling weed using MBB's and other ways are somewhere between those two extremes.
What else can be done to move to the -zero- emission extreme? I am not interested in manipulating the dog or "tricking" him. I am interested in a package that passes the best dog in the world even if its right under his nose.
This seems possible....
-
You guys will be interested in this thread: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=33755.msg384857#msg384857
Astor - that is the thread that got me thinking about this. If 3 layers will get you 5 days.....then what about 6? 8? 10? What is the limit for "can't be detected for 20 days"?
I would think the community would want this information badly and would test, test, and retest it to make sure all our assumptions are right.
-
Use black pepper where ever a dog may sniff. Thats a trick i heard once from an old timer.
-
zzzetc - The search engine is more effective on this forum if used from the -main page.-
Permeation, etc., have been discussed and I think a lot of your questions may have been addressed, sometimes in Security.
If you want to go on the general web, possibly not from your own usual accounts unless you have a desire to leave a trail of abrupt interest in materials science, look up "permeation" and "terpenes."
The Florida article cited in the thread Astor linked is gold.
see links in this: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=94730.msg961519#msg961519
for more basic principles and enough terminology that you can really do a meaningful search on startpage.
If you do have an example of a canine alerting on a 1) appropriately sealed 2) not-contaminated odor-proof bag, post here. I'm very interested. Contamination is a big issue. The non-working-k9 test with the MBB at my house - bag already clean but then re-decontaminated - went well over 45 days. Glass works well over 45 days too. (I stopped checking at 45 days.) Edit to add: glass jar with glass lid, rubber seal, aluminum clip. NOT a canning jar.
Metal cans work well but aren't practical for most people.
I had similarly brief results to the poster in Astor's linked thread as far as food-type PE using basil and using something analogous to MDMA, although note that some foodsaver-type PE does have SiOx coating on it and seems to perform somewhat better. I wouldn't bet my liberty on it and the difference was not huge; also I've found variance in the coating/material in between identical-looking packages, issues of backstock. Big difference between the home-freezer market and the foodservice industry.
I feel OK about the MBB/OBBs. There's a reason MREs are packed in them. (There's a reason tuna fish and that moist catfood stuff is packed in them, for that matter.)
The community's willing to test, retest, etc. But most of us have other work, and, at least for me, to perform what I thought was a reasonable test of long-term use of -one- type of MBB with -one- substance with multiple packs at once with one (non-professional, hobbyist) dog took... well.. over 45 days. :)
Dogs fatigue after a few minutes. Pros can bang back into it after a break. Pillow Guarding Dogs, not so much. People who have full time outside work also fatigue. So: start testing. Get your results up.
I'd love to check degradation of different coatings with different substances next. (When you get to wine and odor barriers, you'll see why I'm wondering.) However, I don't have a vast drug library or storage facility to allow this. Perhaps some forensics grad student is feeling in need of dissertation, and would like to do this and publish? :D Because samples storage is a very important topic, you know.
K9s and weed... are about to become a messy subject. Cannabis: off the new-dog training panel in 2 states, off the new-dog training panel -for now- in other areas because of the high likelihood of decriminalization. You can always train it (easily) later, but desensitizing to it is a hassle (and expensive, and dogs are not inexpensive to start with, and the desensitization has to be maintained.)
Great, less time/energy wasted on ineffective and evil neoProhibition efforts, fewer people locked in cages for voluntarily ingesting a substance of their own volition.
Not so great: vastly more k9 time and energy available for parcel inspection for other substances (although that's probably a plus from LEA's standpoint.) :S K9s generate a lot of revenue via 'asset forfeiture.' Time for more cross-training, I'd guess, and, since the cathinones are sticking around, I wonder if they'll be branching out and adding methylone or mephedrone onto the panels, at least for customs (that's pure speculation).
If you have a dog, and would like to train her or him in basic scentwork, I'm happy to help you get started. It's quite easy, the materials are readily available.
Be warned though, you will start frothing at the mouth whenever anyone mentions masking scents.
-
I heard that an effective way to hide your weed, after you ofc vacuumed sealed/MBBed it in a sterile environment, is to submerge it into something like a jar of peanut butter or honey, seal it up, and keep it cold. It takes a while for the particles to perforate the cold peanut butter. But it will, like MBBs, not last forever. If you want it to last forever, you could seal it inside a diamond at extreme pressure and keep it at absolute zero degrees. But that just it's very practical.
-
If you want it to last forever, you could seal it inside a diamond at extreme pressure and keep it at absolute zero degrees. But that just it's very practical.
:D
I think it's not -really- impractical til you try to conceal it in the tank with the sharks with the laser beams on their heads. Or inside the shark.
edit: hahaha, all I can say is, nevermind, I guess the shark's been done (you can pretty much discern the story from the URL - mexico-cocaine-sharks-drugs)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/17/mexico-cocaine-sharks-drugs
-
What makes you think that LE would give up the war on weed shipping if people could send 100% effectively.
They might come up with some new method of detection or bust people with harsher time if they send/receive weed.
-
LETS TALK ABOUT HOW TO PROSPER IN LIFE AND BE USEFULL.
-
This thread has most of the information you're looking for - http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=119458.0
I think it really depends how far you're willing to go. The more undetectable you make it, the more it costs. You could put the weed in a airtight container, acetone wash the container, put in a MBB, acetone wash the MBB, put in a second MBB, acetone wash that and then package, and I'd be willing to bet it wouldn't set off a drug dog unless there was residue on the box which there shouldn't be. Less than this is probably necessary to get passed a dog. The chance of your package being sniffed by a dog is pretty low though anyways, so it's really just part of the risk.
-
CHEMICAL BROTHERS VENDOR IS STUPID IDIOT!!!
-
What makes you think that LE would give up the war on weed shipping if people could send 100% effectively.
They might come up with some new method of detection or bust people with harsher time if they send/receive weed.
It has to be worth the cost of interdiction efforts. Are they going to snag enough assets out of it?
Or, perhaps, USPS could get into the weed-shipping business and point out that they offer some legal protection that common carriers don't, if people would just PACK appropriately and not make it bloody obvious. :D
Which brings me, somewhat tangentially, to this surreal USPIS OIG whitepaper on the exciting world of P2P, which, if read in a sleep-deprived state, suggests that some analyst at USPIS OIG was saying, "Guys! Look, we could totally do this!" in a "can't beat 'em, join 'em" moment.
https://www.uspsoig.gov/foia_files/rarc-wp-13-005.pdf
Aside from the identity fixation (which is a big "aside from"), they're, like, really excited about this P2P, anonymous, escrow based system which offers integrated payment.
And digital currency. See U.S. Postal Service Office of Inspector General, Digital Currency: Opportunities for the Postal Service, http://www.uspsoig.gov/foia_files/RARC-WP-12-001.pdf.
Quotes from P2P paper:
While legitimate escrow services exist online, the costs are often prohibitive for all but high-value items such as automobiles or jewelry. This means that buyers and sellers in P2P markets are often required to conduct business directly, exposing personal information (name, email, and shipping address) in the course of completing an online transaction, or meeting in person and handling cash in the case of a local transaction. Both courses of action present a threat to the privacy of participants in P2P markets and, potentially, to their physical safety.
Footnote 29 is interesting: A recent white paper suggests that there are arguments that a number of new products could be permitted under current regulations. Some legal issues may remain open to interpretation. U.S. Postal Service Office of Inspector General, Bridging the Digital Divide: Overcoming Regulatory and Organizational Challenges,
With the repositioning of COD as a "Digital COD" service for P2P, where the buyer does not make a payment until she receives the package, some of the uncertainties inherent in the P2P market would be relieved.35 In a potential Digital COD offering, the Postal Service would act as a facilitator to ship and deliver the product ordered and accept payment from the buyer upon the buyer's receipt of the product. The Postal Service would transmit payment to the seller electronically, via credit card or prepaid digital currency card, less a commission.
Relying on a network of social identity and credit information requires users to expose their identity details to organizations that are not accountable for how that information is utilized, including the use of context-sensitive advertising without consideration of the buyer’s and seller’s personal information. The Postal Service could provide a level of privacy that many of the facilitators in today’s P2P marketplace do not offer.
Postal strategies should focus on complementary services and allow for users to keep both their anonymity and privacy in transactions, while at the same time ensuring the capability of tracking parties in cases of fraud.
Products and offerings in digital identity, in-person proofing, and other services for the peer-to-peer market would help the Postal Service strategically in responding to market needs for privacy and security. These offerings would position the Postal Service more favorably with younger consumers whose lives are focused on digital communications and commerce, either on websites or through mobile and smartphone applications. In addition, such services would further solidify the Postal Service’s role as a hub within the community for facilitating commerce. This would be an extension of the role it has traditionally played in commerce over the years and allow growth of many of its current services, in addition to some extensions of current services.
NO, I don't really think they're getting into the P2P cannabis market or placing themselves for specialty shipping (interesting thought exercise, though, and we do have state liquor stores...), but there's still a top-note to this whitepaper that left my eyebrows raised and thinking SR was originally in their comparisons.
-
Of course a dog is gonna smell cancer on a human being that is not vacuum sealed into an unleakable storage container. Then the person with cancer would die anyways of suffocation and the whole thing wouldnt be great, yes a dog can smell cancer, dogs have great smell, and cancer is a thing that would alter the scent of something. Also, no one has attempted with all their might to cover up this cancerous smell, therefore the dog will smell it every time. People dont use their brains that much.
-
Great info and thoughts here....
Thyme - great post. You dropped some knowledge on me and made me realize drug dogs aren't superdogs or anything. Almost ANY dog can smell as well as a drug dog. I hadn't thought about it that way before but that is game changing because it basically means anyone can train their dog the same way and test it out. Thanks for posting man
and thanks to everyone else for your comments. It sounds like this is a pretty well understood subject so, admittedly, I may not be up to speed on the all the latest info. Time to read some more
-
Dogs can smell cancer. With that being said, you can vacuum seal all you want. They are trained to smell anything..
Jazz, again no disrespect meant here.....but if that was true, then dogs wouldn't be able to walk near a nerve gas container or any other toxic chemical storage without dying instantly. Since we know people work around nerve gas and other dangerous chemicals all the time (the one sniff and you're dead kind), there seems to be some are left unexplored.
This is physics. There are substances in the world that we handle where there is -zero- leakage or emissions because they are lethal. Companies spend thousands and hundreds of thousands making sure they don't leak or have emissions. That is one end of the extreme. On the other extreme is "no packaging", which can be smelled a mile away. Vendors selling weed using MBB's and other ways are somewhere between those two extremes.
What else can be done to move to the -zero- emission extreme? I am not interested in manipulating the dog or "tricking" him. I am interested in a package that passes the best dog in the world even if its right under his nose.
This seems possible....
This post is ridiculous. Nerve gas, toxic chemical containers? Where do you live? In the desert? These types of conditions are not your everyday life..
-
Good info...I gotta do more research on K-9's and their sensitive nose.
-
Jazz....I was only using that example to demonstrate that yes, it is indeed possible to have a completely airtight container so absolutely nothing permeates or leaks. You sort of insinuated that dogs can smell everything (cancer!) and I wanted to lay out an example where that is proveably not true. Nerve gas or other toxic chems was the first thing that came to mind because we know with 100% certainty people work around that shit all the time and there are no, as in -zero- emissions. How do we know that? Because if there were ANY emissions, people would be dead.
I wasn't suggesting that I live anywhere near that shit nor was I suggesting that those same methods are helpful or practical for weed. You gotta start somewhere and I can't think of anything that is more emission sensitive (ie: smell) than nerve gas or toxic chems so that's where I started. Of course, everyone knows we can't wrap our weed in 6in thick metal containers but maybe there are other nuggets of knowledge that may be useful....
Just chatting....
-
@zzz etc: Well, to be fair, not all dog schnozzes are created equal. Some are better than others.
And some breeds have more drive, focus... moxie... whatever.
There's a reason bloodhounds, beagles, etc., get the jobs more often. But even a sinus-infected pug can kick our ass, scent-wise. (That's not just a figure of speech. As a joke, I badly wrapped a "test pack" of ham for a friend and a "placebo pack" the way she thought would be safe. Her snuffly-nosed, sinus-infected, asthmatic pug could find the ham.)
Also, not all scentwork is the same. Packages - smelling static objects - require a different dog personality for a job than SAR - chasing a scent through the woods.
For the purposes of just snuffing at something, fine, a multipurpose pet is a lot better than nothing.
I'm serious about cheering you on. I am all about the community-based testing.
Clicker training is a good place to start. Practice on a child or employer first, or learn the classic way.... train a guppy to swim through a hoop.
Look for Hunter's -Fun Nosework For Dogs- for a basic fun-type introduction (looks goofy, good training book).
One of the US big dog 'chains,' a dog-day-care/training place, had training courses and included a course in scentwork. I don't remember which one, but I'd know it if I saw the name. They were billing it as a convenient way to find your keys/phone. :)
This post is ridiculous. Nerve gas, toxic chemical containers? Where do you live? In the desert? These types of conditions are not your everyday life..
Wow, whole lot of assumptions there. :D
-
NEVER assume ANYTHING, and after you seal your shit up real good, just powder it or make a paste and cover the inside of your package with benzocaine, this is not a chemical a dog should alert too, but should also knockout their sense of smell for like an hour or so, simple fucking shit, noone ever talks about actively knocking out dogs sense of smell, just masking the smell as good as possible, both can be done, cheaply and easily. Interesting enough, cocaine works too, but not before the dog will alert to the cocaine, after that they wont smell shit, but this is super impractical to postal smuggling as there is only 1 package to inspect. But some really fucking simple things that no one thinks about when It comes to a drug dog searching your house or something big like that, if you rub marijauna on literally like everything, the dog will alert EVERYWHERE, the officer will have no clue where to start looking =p (haha I really like that one ;) And then the cocaine thing, put a lil pile of cocaine near your front door, like super small so theres a spec the dog will sniff up as soon as he starts, the dog will alert, the officer will search the floor, possibly rip up the carpet searching under the floorboards or whatever, and then the dog wont smell shit for hours =p Simple ass shit, and cocaine isnt the only thing that will knockout a dogs sense of smell, there are legal chemicals too. I love how some people are under the impression that a dog is like superhero that cant be fooled ever, so funny, a dog is a fucking dog, they are just as trickable as any other organism on this earth, they just happen to have a damn good sense of smell, because they evolved like that.