Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: HEATFan on May 23, 2013, 02:53 am
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I've been thinking recently about a rule provision which allows a vendor to sell their account. I don't really see how the community benefits in any way by allowing this practice. I know that it is going to happen in some cases anyways but I feel like allowing it encourages and justifies the practice even further.
There are already too many scams that happen on SilkRoad and allowing unscrupulous vendors to buy accounts basically allows them to buy trust and makes it easier for them to perpetrate things like FE scams or selective scams or scams in general.
If a vendor bond is reimbursable I see no reason why someone would want to buy an existing vendor account unless they were looking to buy trust. Trust should be earned not bought.
That's how I feel about the issue and I'm curious to see how the community feels. Does this rule need some revision?
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I don't think there's much of a chance of getting DPR to change this policy.
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I think it's pretty ridiculous too.
And why would DPR be against changing this policy? I think it would be good for him to weigh in on this issue.
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I don't think there's much of a chance of getting DPR to change this policy.
I'm curious as to why you think that?
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I don't think there's much of a chance of getting DPR to change this policy.
I'm curious as to why you think that?
Because he has several times recently clarified to me/us that selling vendor accounts is allowed. The only things not allowed are those which sole purpose is to harm others. If you want more clarification, I can certainly ask again, but my feeling is that this is in line with the rest of SR's free market policies.
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I don't think there's much of a chance of getting DPR to change this policy.
I'm curious as to why you think that?
Because he has several times recently clarified to me/us that selling vendor accounts is allowed. The only things not allowed are those which sole purpose is to harm others. If you want more clarification, I can certainly ask again, but my feeling is that this is in line with the rest of SR's free market policies.
Um, so, what is the benefit to selling an account other than if it was being used to deceive others aka "harm" others?
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Yes only if once the account is sold the account forever has some kind of signature or counter on it's page that shows how many times it's been sold. The buyer should have the right to be made aware of when a vendor account is being operated by different people. I don't know if something like this already happens or not, but if people can sell their vendor accounts it should.
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I don't think there's much of a chance of getting DPR to change this policy.
I'm curious as to why you think that?
Because he has several times recently clarified to me/us that selling vendor accounts is allowed. The only things not allowed are those which sole purpose is to harm others. If you want more clarification, I can certainly ask again, but my feeling is that this is in line with the rest of SR's free market policies.
Um, so, what is the benefit to selling an account other than if it was being used to deceive others aka "harm" others?
A vendor account doesn't harm others - an asshole scammer running a vendor account does, but a vendor account itself does nothing to deceive or harm others.
I let DPR know that you all want him to chime in, and sent him a link to the thread.
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No.
Why would you make it allowed for someone to run up the stats on a vendors page, earn customers, earn reviews (100) rating, then just make it open to any Tony76 to buy up the account, and pull a bunch of shit from the once trusted vendor.
This would cause loads of trust problems among the community and loads of problems for the already busy staff...
Just my .2 BTC..
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A vendor account doesn't harm others - an asshole scammer running a vendor account does, but a vendor account itself does nothing to deceive or harm others.
I let DPR know that you all want him to chime in, and sent him a link to the thread.
You are correct, but a vendor account with preexisting stats allows an unscrupulous vendor to further deceive customers. A legitimate vendor has no reason to purchase an existing vendor account unless it was for malicious purposes. If the vendor bond is reimbursable, how can one stand to gain by purchasing a preexisting vendor account? Only if they wanted to buy trust that was established by someone else. Only if they wanted to be allowed to request FE without putting in their due work and time to earn that privilege. There are no honest reasons to purchase another vendor's account is what I am saying.
I hope DPR does comment because I am curious to know his reason behind this. I was going to PM him directly when SSBD suggested it but he also mentioned starting a poll and I figured I would gauge how the community felt before presenting my case.
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Vendors shouldn't be able to buy/sell accounts.
The trust in the community must be EARNED not BOUGHT.
(imo)
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SURE they bough it fro money if they choose to step back they should be allowed to sell why not
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I agree with OP. This is policy could be better considered.
If vendors are allowed to sell their accounts, it invalidates the entire feedback system. Vendors work hard for their 100 feedback score, and buyers trust that, so it doesnt seem fair on either party that some vendors are able to bypass this process completely.
Of course theres no perfect way to deal with this, as its impossible to stop it happening. It would be better if vendors who have sold their accounts are obligated to make that public though, as I see someone else has also said.
Not ragging on DPR's rules or anything - nobody is perfect, and all of these things should be trial and error. This place is thought out and run incredibly well; Way above initial expecations, for me at least. But this is one thing that I think would be worth rethinking...
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I really don't see why this should be allowed. They can refund their account and get the $500 back anyway. Like you said, it just encourages scamming. +1 to you sir.
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I'm going to raise my hand and respectfully disagree with changing this rule, for one reason and one reason only! That reason being that it allows sellers to remain anonymous. I know that I don't want to be associated with anything that can come back to me, so I believe that being able to sell an account is a good idea. There are scammers everywhere, and an account is only has good as the people behind it.
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Selling a vendor account initially seems absurd, however, I've reflected on this a little and I can actually understand where DPR might be standing on this issue:
A vendor account doesn't harm others - an asshole scammer running a vendor account does, but a vendor account itself does nothing to deceive or harm others.
Scout is right here, a vendor account on its own doesn't HARM anyone, it's level of harm depends entirely on the person USING the vendor account. In a similar way, the selling of drugs on Silk Road by itself is completely innocent, but put those drugs in the wrong hands and they could be used to commit serious atrocities. If the selling of a vendor account were to be banned simply because of POTENTIAL danger, then the entirety of Silk Road's values would be undermined.
In terms of WHY people would buy and/or sell vendor accounts; what if a vendor decides to end his run on selling and calls it a day? The benefit of selling a vendor account for him would be that he earns a final bit of cash for all the hard work he's put into the community. The buyer, in return, will be able to get hold of an account for less than the bond normally is (say he gets it for 50% cheaper than normal). The benefit for the buyer in this instance is dependent on his financial circumstances. Start-up vendors generally don't have much capital to play with in the first place to set up their shops, I speak from experience! In being able to get a cheaper vendor account, they give themselves more money to play with in order to get more/higher quality products to sell to the community. Admittedly, they won't get their money back like they would in a bond, but that initial extra cash they had could have made them enough profit to cover the original cost of the vendor account in a shorter time period than normal accounts are expected to wait (6 weeks).
I can accept the concerns that people have over the abuse of trusted vendor accounts, but at the end of the day this is just another reason for all users to stay inside the escrow system at all times to avoid being scammed.
Sorry for going on a bit there, I just thought I'd chime in with my thoughts.
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Selling a vendor account initially seems absurd, however, I've reflected on this a little and I can actually understand where DPR might be standing on this issue:
A vendor account doesn't harm others - an asshole scammer running a vendor account does, but a vendor account itself does nothing to deceive or harm others.
Scout is right here, a vendor account on its own doesn't HARM anyone, it's level of harm depends entirely on the person USING the vendor account. In a similar way, the selling of drugs on Silk Road by itself is completely innocent, but put those drugs in the wrong hands and they could be used to commit serious atrocities. If the selling of a vendor account were to be banned simply because of POTENTIAL danger, then the entirety of Silk Road's values would be undermined.
In terms of WHY people would sell and/or sell vendor accounts; what if a vendor decides to end his run on selling and calls it a day? The benefit of selling a vendor account for him would be that he earns a final bit of cash for all the hard work he's put into the community. The buyer, in return, will be able to get hold of an account for less than the bond normally is (say he gets it for 50% cheaper than normal). The benefit for the buyer in this instance is dependent on his financial circumstances. Start-up vendors generally don't have much capital to play with in the first place to set up their shops, I speak from experience! In being able to get a cheaper vendor account, they give themselves more money to play with in order to get more/higher quality products to sell to the community. Admittedly, they won't get their money back like they would in a bond, but that initial extra cash they had could have made them enough profit to cover the original cost of the vendor account in a shorter time period than normal accounts are expected to wait (6 weeks).
I can accept the concerns that people have over the abuse of trusted vendor accounts, but at the end of the day this is just another reason for all users to stay inside the escrow system at all times to avoid being scammed.
Sorry for going on a bit there, I just thought I'd chime in with my thoughts.
Kudos
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Yes, vendor accounts should be salable. If DPR changes his stance on this, he should allow vendors to sell back their accounts to SilkRoad. Since I was here from the very beginning I got my vendor account free of charge. Still, if you pay for something, you should be able to redeem that investment when you no longer need it, common sense and totally inline with the free market economics we have here on SR. I am guessing no-one that voted in this poll has had to fork out the cost for a vendor account ::) maybe their stance would be different if they had.
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Selling a vendor account initially seems absurd, however, I've reflected on this a little and I can actually understand where DPR might be standing on this issue:
A vendor account doesn't harm others - an asshole scammer running a vendor account does, but a vendor account itself does nothing to deceive or harm others.
Scout is right here, a vendor account on its own doesn't HARM anyone, it's level of harm depends entirely on the person USING the vendor account. In a similar way, the selling of drugs on Silk Road by itself is completely innocent, but put those drugs in the wrong hands and they could be used to commit serious atrocities. If the selling of a vendor account were to be banned simply because of POTENTIAL danger, then the entirety of Silk Road's values would be undermined.
In terms of WHY people would buy and/or sell vendor accounts; what if a vendor decides to end his run on selling and calls it a day? The benefit of selling a vendor account for him would be that he earns a final bit of cash for all the hard work he's put into the community. The buyer, in return, will be able to get hold of an account for less than the bond normally is (say he gets it for 50% cheaper than normal). The benefit for the buyer in this instance is dependent on his financial circumstances. Start-up vendors generally don't have much capital to play with in the first place to set up their shops, I speak from experience! In being able to get a cheaper vendor account, they give themselves more money to play with in order to get more/higher quality products to sell to the community. Admittedly, they won't get their money back like they would in a bond, but that initial extra cash they had could have made them enough profit to cover the original cost of the vendor account in a shorter time period than normal accounts are expected to wait (6 weeks).
I can accept the concerns that people have over the abuse of trusted vendor accounts, but at the end of the day this is just another reason for all users to stay inside the escrow system at all times to avoid being scammed.
Sorry for going on a bit there, I just thought I'd chime in with my thoughts.
Good points well made. +1. Admittedly, i hadn;t really thought about it from this perspective.
I do still just feel like it invalidates the whole feedback system though. And thats my main reason for being a 'no' on this issue...
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I do still just feel like it invalidates the whole feedback system though. And thats my main reason for being a 'no' on this issue...
I made a thread in the feature requests a couple of days ago regarding false vendor feedback. Perhaps the legitimate sale of vendor accounts could be factored into such a feature request?
If you're interested:
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=161461.0
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I would like to start out by saying thanks to the Op as this is a great topic that should be discussed so thanks!
There are pro's and con's to this discussion that have all ready been gone through so i wont go into detail but i think that the con's outweigh the pro's on this particular issue.
As others have stated it does not look like DPR has a huge problem with this practice but i would also like them to implement something where it at least shows if the account is still with it's original owner(person who registered it) at least that way buyer's would know that the account was bought and could then decide them selves if they would want to put trust in the vendor and this would go a long way into protecting the buyer while still giving the vendor the option on selling his account.
Thanks for reading and again great topic!
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Selling a vendor account initially seems absurd, however, I've reflected on this a little and I can actually understand where DPR might be standing on this issue:
A vendor account doesn't harm others - an asshole scammer running a vendor account does, but a vendor account itself does nothing to deceive or harm others.
Scout is right here, a vendor account on its own doesn't HARM anyone, it's level of harm depends entirely on the person USING the vendor account. In a similar way, the selling of drugs on Silk Road by itself is completely innocent, but put those drugs in the wrong hands and they could be used to commit serious atrocities. If the selling of a vendor account were to be banned simply because of POTENTIAL danger, then the entirety of Silk Road's values would be undermined.
In terms of WHY people would buy and/or sell vendor accounts; what if a vendor decides to end his run on selling and calls it a day? The benefit of selling a vendor account for him would be that he earns a final bit of cash for all the hard work he's put into the community. The buyer, in return, will be able to get hold of an account for less than the bond normally is (say he gets it for 50% cheaper than normal). The benefit for the buyer in this instance is dependent on his financial circumstances. Start-up vendors generally don't have much capital to play with in the first place to set up their shops, I speak from experience! In being able to get a cheaper vendor account, they give themselves more money to play with in order to get more/higher quality products to sell to the community. Admittedly, they won't get their money back like they would in a bond, but that initial extra cash they had could have made them enough profit to cover the original cost of the vendor account in a shorter time period than normal accounts are expected to wait (6 weeks).
I can accept the concerns that people have over the abuse of trusted vendor accounts, but at the end of the day this is just another reason for all users to stay inside the escrow system at all times to avoid being scammed.
Sorry for going on a bit there, I just thought I'd chime in with my thoughts.
Really appreciate this post - great contribution to the topic at hand!
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Selling a vendor account initially seems absurd, however, I've reflected on this a little and I can actually understand where DPR might be standing on this issue:
A vendor account doesn't harm others - an asshole scammer running a vendor account does, but a vendor account itself does nothing to deceive or harm others.
Scout is right here, a vendor account on its own doesn't HARM anyone, it's level of harm depends entirely on the person USING the vendor account. In a similar way, the selling of drugs on Silk Road by itself is completely innocent, but put those drugs in the wrong hands and they could be used to commit serious atrocities. If the selling of a vendor account were to be banned simply because of POTENTIAL danger, then the entirety of Silk Road's values would be undermined.
In terms of WHY people would buy and/or sell vendor accounts; what if a vendor decides to end his run on selling and calls it a day? The benefit of selling a vendor account for him would be that he earns a final bit of cash for all the hard work he's put into the community. The buyer, in return, will be able to get hold of an account for less than the bond normally is (say he gets it for 50% cheaper than normal). The benefit for the buyer in this instance is dependent on his financial circumstances. Start-up vendors generally don't have much capital to play with in the first place to set up their shops, I speak from experience! In being able to get a cheaper vendor account, they give themselves more money to play with in order to get more/higher quality products to sell to the community. Admittedly, they won't get their money back like they would in a bond, but that initial extra cash they had could have made them enough profit to cover the original cost of the vendor account in a shorter time period than normal accounts are expected to wait (6 weeks).
I can accept the concerns that people have over the abuse of trusted vendor accounts, but at the end of the day this is just another reason for all users to stay inside the escrow system at all times to avoid being scammed.
Sorry for going on a bit there, I just thought I'd chime in with my thoughts.
if the original vendor is looking for some cash before leaving, why would he sell his vendor account for 50% of the deposit when he could just give up his vendor account to SR staff and receive 100% of the deposit? unless he's selling his vendor account for more than the deposit, there's nothing for the original vendor to gain from selling his account to a new vendor. and if the new vendor is buying the account for more than the normal deposit, then everything you said regarding start-up capital is thrown out the window. the only advantage of buying the pre-existing vendor account would be the feedback stats, which would just be used to scam newbies. unless the feedback is reset when a vendor account is sold, you're pretty much encouraging scammers to.. well, scam. and if the feedback is reset when a vendor account is sold, I can not see the reason anyone would buy a pre-existing vendor account, unless they really want the account name for their store...
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cause its a bond not a fucking sale, if i want to i get my cash back.
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I voted no, not because I don't believe in free market or anything, but because it opens the huge door for any government to buy up the account and mount a big customer database.
I do believe vendors should be able to do it, but I think it's too risky.
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good point... what's stopping LE from buying reputable vendor accounts?
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good point... what's stopping LE from buying reputable vendor accounts?
Nothing, just like there is nothing stopping them from buying a new vendor account either.
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there are only 3 types that would buy a vendors account:
1) LE
2) scammer
3) some lazy ass - i usually dont like to generalize but lazy people are incompetent douchbags! always!
none of these 3 have honor or their word.
u guys can rationalize all u want but reality is reality and human nature does not change.
the bond? lol!
ever heard of the cost of doing business?
if ur smart enough to work it into ur price structure the argument is mute.
i would never trust another individual enough to do the right thing to sell any of my accounts to them under
any circumstance - this is a core belief of mine and will never change.
i usually agree with SR and its not my place to tell them how to run their business.
i am just happy to be here but this policy is not well thought out - unlike the rest of this place.
i fear it will only invite divisiveness and distrust with the end results it allows
i vote no to the selling of accounts under any circumstances.
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good point... what's stopping LE from buying reputable vendor accounts?
Nothing, just like there is nothing stopping them from buying a new vendor account either.
scout - Le would rather have an older account because of the already established customer base
and the trust it has built up - makes their work easy peazy!
EDIT: please - common sense! u r better than this!
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It's like the "cartels". How are you going to stop it?
If a vendor sells their account and the new vendor has crap product and/or service, their reviews will tank.
Even the same vendor can drastically change in the quality of their product or service, so there's no guarantee of anything.
Either way, we have a review system, and the market will work itself out.
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there are only 3 types that would buy a vendors account:
1) LE
2) scammer
3) some lazy ass - i usually dont like to generalize but lazy people are incompetent douchbags! always!
none of these 3 have honor or their word.
That's an excellent point, and I agree with you. Especially the LE threat is serious, but there doesn't seem to be anything you can do about it. Those deals happen outside of SR.
You might say, there's nothing they can do about out of escrow transactions but they ban that.
Yeah, but most of those people want to keep their accounts. So they have leverage. They can scare people by threatening them with a ban. Are one or two out of escrow transactions worth losing your account over?
Someone willing to sell their account is someone who wants to leave the game anyway. There's no leverage over them, so why pretend you have any? It'll just make you look like a fool when it happens anyway, and LE busts a bunch of people after taking over an account.
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that should ban there account! sooo messed up!
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good point... what's stopping LE from buying reputable vendor accounts?
Nothing, just like there is nothing stopping them from buying a new vendor account either.
scout - Le would rather have an older account because of the already established customer base
and the trust it has built up - makes their work easy peazy!
EDIT: please - common sense! u r better than this!
My point was that if LE wants to use a vendor account to bust people, they will do so whether they purchase it new or used. I understood the point being made, but thanks for the insult anyway. :-\
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I was just wondering if DPR will actually respond? I feel like the community has spoken... both sides are pretty clear. We've weighed out the pros and cons and while we may not have come to an answer amongst all of us its clear that the general view is this rule needs some revision.
Really the only thing we can do now is wait and see if DPR will comment.
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I agree that there doesn't seem to be much that anyone can do about it.
However, if there was an interest in having rules about this, surely they would be that you can sell your account BUT: 1) the change of ownership must be noted on the vendor site for some minimum length of time, and 2) reputation/stats must be zeroed. There is really no justification for not requiring either of those things (excepting, again, difficulty of enforcement).
As for LE buying new or buying used, a vendor with no stats attracts a few, cautious buyers. A vendor with longstanding dependable stats could sting a hell of a lot of users before people catch wind. Entirely different proposition.
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I was just wondering if DPR will actually respond? I feel like the community has spoken... both sides are pretty clear. We've weighed out the pros and cons and while we may not have come to an answer amongst all of us its clear that the general view is this rule needs some revision.
Really the only thing we can do now is wait and see if DPR will comment.
Doesn't sound like it is a priority at this point.
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I think vendors should be allowed to sell their accounts, but an "under new management" icon or something should be applied if they do.
Buyers should be allowed to know if their regular orders are being processed by someone different.
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I think vendors should be allowed to sell their accounts, but an "under new management" icon or something should be applied if they do.
Buyers should be allowed to know if their regular orders are being processed by someone different.
If you are a vendor with a following this would make void the point of selling an account that's established. Under new management is going to scare buyers off, plain and simple. This will effect the price u can sell your account for. What you are asking for is not going to happen, consider an "under new management" disclaimer a pipe dream folks!
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I vote no, this is because If i have done business with someone or someone else has rated them highly I want to be assured that I will be getting the same and not someone who now has control over the account and claims to have the same things, whether its a scam or not.
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I vote no, this is because If i have done business with someone or someone else has rated them highly I want to be assured that I will be getting the same and not someone who now has control over the account and claims to have the same things, whether its a scam or not.
An account can be switched between operators at any time without you knowing. You don't know anyone here, everyone is anonymous!
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That's an excellent point, and I agree with you. Especially the LE threat is serious, but there doesn't seem to be anything you can do about it. Those deals happen outside of SR.
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Someone willing to sell their account is someone who wants to leave the game anyway. There's no leverage over them, so why pretend you have any? It'll just make you look like a fool when it happens anyway, and LE busts a bunch of people after taking over an account.
While I agree with you, allowing the sale of accounts facilitates this to an extent that would not be possible if it was explicitly banned. Let's consider the possibilities when it comes to wanting to sell an account if it was not allowed to be done here.
1. You could search for people who have put out wanted ads, but you would have to know where to look and you would be at the mercy of whatever they wanted to pay for the most part, since you are responding to their ad.
2. You post your own ad somewhere you feel will be visited by someone who would be interested in purchasing a preexisting vendor account. In this second scenario you have to worry about your ad being seen by or reported to a SR staff member, resulting in some consequence for doing so.
Basically, by officially disallowing the practice it becomes much harder for a person with ill-intent to acquire an account. If accounts were openly available for sale here and even advertised as such on the forums and elsewhere, it makes these accounts much more accessible to people who wish to scam.
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I think vendors should be allowed to sell their accounts, but an "under new management" icon or something should be applied if they do.
Buyers should be allowed to know if their regular orders are being processed by someone different.
If you are a vendor with a following this would make void the point of selling an account that's established.
And? A legit vendor shouldn't have much of an issue with building a loyal customer base from scratch. You've basically just observed that doing this would eliminate the incentive for scammers and LE. Oh noes. If it can't/won't be done, I would hope it's because of enforcement issues and not because there's an interest in promoting the worst possible site behaviour.
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This is not a freedom issue or some sort of "free market" issue. This should be common sense, openly condoning the selling of existing seller accounts is EXTREMELY dangerous. I didn't even know that was something DPR was ok with, I find that surprising. I am not worried about scammers as much as I am about LE. Yes, it is true LE could open a new vendor account to gain names and address but people don't generally buy bulk illegal drugs from a new vendor with no successful sales. LE is not going to send drugs through the mail to build up there feedback to get people to order bulk, and when a few orders from a new vendor don't come feedback would kill that account asap. Ponder for a moment if LE bought supertrips account, or some bulk heroin supplier. If buyers did not know that happened LE would get in orders for bulk drugs that would land someone in prison in the US for decades upon decades. This "free market" no rules fetish is silly to apply in this situation. In fact, that argument is intellectually lazy considering what could possibly happen to people in this community. Having drugs sent through he mail is inherently dangerous, but I think it safe to say that most if not all buyers think that the prospect of basically having drug convictions sold to law enforcement by a current trusted vendor is not part of the natural risk associated with this community. In fact, if this happened and people got popped over the ridiculous policy I think they would be within their right to assign blame on anyone who supported the open selling of vendor accounts with no notification of any kind to buyers.
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I think vendors should be allowed to sell their accounts, but an "under new management" icon or something should be applied if they do.
Buyers should be allowed to know if their regular orders are being processed by someone different.
If you are a vendor with a following this would make void the point of selling an account that's established.
And? A legit vendor shouldn't have much of an issue with building a loyal customer base from scratch. You've basically just observed that doing this would eliminate the incentive for scammers and LE. Oh noes. If it can't/won't be done, I would hope it's because of enforcement issues and not because there's an interest in promoting the worst possible site behaviour.
There is always going to be scammy behavior on a site like this! Not everyone wants to do something from scratch! That's the value of selling an account, the dirty work has been taken care of. As far as LE is concerned, I think that fear is unjustified. LE can be on the site in anyway they want. If they were to buy an account, great, then what? Are they going to start pushing drugs to round up buyers? Last I checked that's a big no no in the LE world, meaning LE is not allowed to sell any kind of drugs unless a bust is to be followed. Of course all rules are made to be broken however. Hey if Sr decides to ban the ability to sell accounts, fine, you can never be too cautious. I just don't see it as being a serious concern! That's all!
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if a vendor account is sold, every existing customer should either, A: receive a notice.
or B: it should be clearly visible on the vendor profile it was recently sold to another party.
If vendor account is sold an people aren't aware of the change, it seems very dogy, an most likely will lead to scam / honey pot / harm to end buyer.. why the fuck is this allowed in the first place. :-\
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I think vendors should be allowed to sell their accounts, but an "under new management" icon or something should be applied if they do.
Buyers should be allowed to know if their regular orders are being processed by someone different.
exactly what i was thinking :)
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lol, what if a vendor racked up a bunch of orders before selling the account.. requested everyone to FE, then sold the account? all aboard the scam-train! CHUU.. CHUU..
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Answer: No.
Why? I can only see one reason to buy a seller account instead of starting one from scratch, to cause harm to users.
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I love SR, but this is just idiotic. Everybody worked hard for their trust and stats, you should earn it NOT buy it! This screams SCAM SCAM SCAM, buying a vendor account makes you a wolf in sheeps clothes
Let's say a 10% vendor sells his account --> someone buys it --> SCAM
10% vendor sells his account --> new kid on the block buys it and just throws a bags of weed in cartboard boxes and sends the orders --> love letter rain
This can't go right, it really can't. Might as well sell lotery tickets and fake feedback while we are at it, because the feedback and stats don't mean shit anyway .. ???
Everyone loves me, so it's not a exception DPR loves money, so i think he just allows this to keeps the big amounts of orders flowing on the accounts being sold so he can rack up the SR fees and just live life 8)
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i think its sad that DPR does not comment when directly asked to, there was once a day he would have done :(
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i think its sad that DPR does not comment when directly asked to, there was once a day he would have done :(
Why answer a question, whose answer is obvious? While I'd like to stop vendors from selling their accounts, how would you stop it?
The account is anonymous. duh..... I figured that out by the 3rd, or 4th post.
This means, no vendor should be trusted with FE, as they could bail at anytime. A few have learned to watch for changes. Basically around here, if it's too good to be true, it is. Nobody's giving out cheap drugs here. Learn the hard way, we all have :'(
Rules changes that will never happen;
No FE's
Selling vendor accounts
So be responsible.
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there are only 3 types that would buy a vendors account:
1) LE
2) scammer
3) some lazy ass - i usually dont like to generalize but lazy people are incompetent douchbags! always!
none of these 3 have honor or their word.
That's an excellent point, and I agree with you. Especially the LE threat is serious, but there doesn't seem to be anything you can do about it. Those deals happen outside of SR.
You might say, there's nothing they can do about out of escrow transactions but they ban that.
Yeah, but most of those people want to keep their accounts. So they have leverage. They can scare people by threatening them with a ban. Are one or two out of escrow transactions worth losing your account over?
Someone willing to sell their account is someone who wants to leave the game anyway. There's no leverage over them, so why pretend you have any? It'll just make you look like a fool when it happens anyway, and LE busts a bunch of people after taking over an account.
i agree LE is a real problem that requires eternal diligence!
i was only expressing my feelings on the matter of policy.
i completely understand that accounts can be sold outside of the sphere of SR.
there was a time - astor - when i scanned the other parts of the dark and clear web endlessly for account sellers.
i turned in the posts and or accounts to SR if i was able to get them to divulge them. to be honest mostly i was only able to notify them
of the inappropriate actions of others. at least i was trying do do something positive.
just ask the older retired mods and or SR himself. i am a : good old but nowadays more tired soldier of this dream we find ourselves
in here. long live SR - ima here till the tires fall off.
thanks for the insult anyway. :-\
really - i understand and respect exactly why u have that stance! it wasn't an insult - it was more of
a backhanded compliment because i fundamentally disagree with u :P
I vote no, this is because If i have done business with someone or someone else has rated them highly I want to be assured that I will be getting the same and not someone who now has control over the account and claims to have the same things, whether its a scam or not.
An account can be switched between operators at any time without you knowing. You don't know anyone here, everyone is anonymous!
maybe that can be said about some vendors but i think of all of my customers - especially the older ones as my friends.
i know their idiosyncrasies and they know mine.
lets say i let my brother - who knows me as well as anyone on earth take over my account for one month.
i would wager that within one day my customers would be posting on my forum review page that my account had
been taken over by LE . he doesnt type or speak like me - even if he tried he would fuck it up.
i have forgotten more about growing weed than he will ever know and besides that he does shit half assed.
there would be no further packages from then on that would show up in 2-3 days from " in transit "
there would be no more special favors or special orders and he would run my karma to a near even level of + to -.
in short u dont know wtf u are talking about.
Answer: No.
Why? I can only see one reason to buy a seller account instead of starting one from scratch, to cause harm to users.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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i think its sad that DPR does not comment when directly asked to, there was once a day he would have done :(
Why answer a question, whose answer is obvious? While I'd like to stop vendors from selling their accounts, how would you stop it?
The account is anonymous. duh..... I figured that out by the 3rd, or 4th post.
This means, no vendor should be trusted with FE, as they could bail at anytime. A few have learned to watch for changes. Basically around here, if it's too good to be true, it is. Nobody's giving out cheap drugs here. Learn the hard way, we all have :'(
Rules changes that will never happen;
No FE's
Selling vendor accounts
So be responsible.
true true uni :(
hope springs eternal though.
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There's certainly no harm in hoping. Who knows how things will evolve!
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But the vendors usually have a public pgp key, so if he sells an account a new pgp key will most likely appear. Therefore I'm a bit sceptical towards vendors who change their pgp key without signing the new key with the old one.
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I vote no, this is because If i have done business with someone or someone else has rated them highly I want to be assured that I will be getting the same and not someone who now has control over the account and claims to have the same things, whether its a scam or not.
An account can be switched between operators at any time without you knowing. You don't know anyone here, everyone is anonymous!
This.
It's completely pointless crying out for something that you cannot change, due to the system we are using. Stopping any type of "official" selling is like building half a dam to stop a river...
Besides, the things one is at risk to when a vendor account has a change of ownership are the same as always, like loss of BTC, address going to dodgy people. Sure, the risk may increase, but any decision a vendor makes can cause these risks to increase.
It comes down to the judgement of the vendor at the end of the day. The best we can do is create an environment where honest, cool minded people profit the most.
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Everyone loves me, so it's not a exception DPR loves money, so i think he just allows this to keeps the big amounts of orders flowing on the accounts being sold so he can rack up the SR fees and just live life 8)
I would imagine the number of accounts that have actually been sold since Silk Road's inception to be in or around the 15-25 region. It is not an issue of money. It is most likely that DPR allows this because a) it is impossible to prevent, due to the fact that we are all accessing Silk Road via Tor and b) because restricting the one item that he/she "sells" (used loosely as the payment is a bond, not a fee) on the free market that he/she created would be crassly hypocritical.
Libertas
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There is always going to be scammy behavior on a site like this! Not everyone wants to do something from scratch! That's the value of selling an account, the dirty work has been taken care of. As far as LE is concerned, I think that fear is unjustified. LE can be on the site in anyway they want. If they were to buy an account, great, then what? Are they going to start pushing drugs to round up buyers?
I don't see what's so hard to grasp about this point.
LE starts up new account --> zero history --> cautious (or reckless) few buyers --> bad feedback (or no feedback) and busts. The rest of the community stays away.
LE buys reputable account --> long-time customers and new customers think LE is legit --> LE round up a nice pack of buyers, names and addresses --> let the bust fiesta begin.
The only reason drugs would actually need to change hands is if LE was forced to *build* a history from scratch.
I don't know what to say to "not everyone wants to X". Not everyone wants to part with drugs for cash if they can scam. So we should enable it?
ALL that being said, yeah, the site is built to be anonymous. I'm sure many accounts have already been bought and sold. By all reports, one of my regular vendors is now some kind of syndicate. So it goes. But you have to admit it's a terrible hidden risk. It means there's no such thing as knowing your vendor is even "your" vendor. At that point, what do the stats mean?
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There is always going to be scammy behavior on a site like this! Not everyone wants to do something from scratch! That's the value of selling an account, the dirty work has been taken care of. As far as LE is concerned, I think that fear is unjustified. LE can be on the site in anyway they want. If they were to buy an account, great, then what? Are they going to start pushing drugs to round up buyers?
I don't see what's so hard to grasp about this point.
LE starts up new account --> zero history --> cautious (or reckless) few buyers --> bad feedback (or no feedback) and busts. The rest of the community stays away.
LE buys reputable account --> long-time customers and new customers think LE is legit --> LE round up a nice pack of buyers, names and addresses --> let the bust fiesta begin.
The only reason drugs would actually need to change hands is if LE was forced to *build* a history from scratch.
I don't know what to say to "not everyone wants to X". Not everyone wants to part with drugs for cash if they can scam. So we should enable it?
ALL that being said, yeah, the site is built to be anonymous. I'm sure many accounts have already been bought and sold. By all reports, one of my regular vendors is now some kind of syndicate. So it goes. But you have to admit it's a terrible hidden risk. It means there's no such thing as knowing your vendor is even "your" vendor. At that point, what do the stats mean?
Lots of great points here, but to play devil's advocate - does LE even give a shit about busting one or two buyers? It seems to me there is a much greater "need" to bust vendors, not buyers. (though i guess they'll take whatever they can get!)
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Depends, I suppose, on whether it's possible to tell who on SR is supplying street dealers (I have no info that this is done, but I see it talked about, and it seems believable). Or bending caught buyers to go after other vendors, except, if everybody is doing what they're supposed to, buyers should know nothing of use against any of their vendors (one reason I'm ok with the informational risk not being two-way - it makes buyers less of a target, too). But then I think there's probably some podunk LE force somewhere without the chops to mount any kind of real offensive on SR, with townsfolk screaming about Their Children! Their Children! and yeah, they just want to bust some people to be seen to be doing something, so maybe they'll buy a vendor account and just go and do that. Dunno.
The more personal risk to me is that you could suddenly have a dependable, stealthy vendor become someone who doesn't give a fuck or doesn't know what they're doing. I ended up making a large order of mj because I thought to myself "I've got a dependable vendor with so-so stealth but great sealants, never screws up - I should make a big order and take 1 slightly larger risk than all these endless little risks that are eventually gonna get me caught just by chance." So I order and it's a MAJOR fuckup. The package stinks of weed. And of course, for once, it's major weight. Now, I don't think this vendor suddenly became someone else. They say they had problems on their end. I believe them (but won't deal with them again). However, vendor doppelgangers put everybody in that situation, all the time.
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I understand what you're saying and do agree on most of these points. However, based on the philosophy of this marketplace (and of DPR who created it) I think that the ability to sell vendor accounts will remain in effect until/unless something else occurs to change DPR's mind about it.
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Of course, maybe this issue steals the limelight from another: how easy or difficult it is to fake feedback (another ongoing topic). If it's relatively easy to do, then nobody needs to buy a vendor account; just invent some business first.
EDIT to reply to scout: Well, can't even think of a workaround. There's no code or other identifying info that a vendor could have that couldn't be sold along with the account. But as for site philosophy, well, stats already eat into anonymity by providing a stable (however imaginary) identity on which to judge services provided. And I think we all agree they're a good thing.
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Of course, maybe this issue steals the limelight from another: how easy or difficult it is to fake feedback (another ongoing topic). If it's relatively easy to do, then nobody needs to buy a vendor account; just invent some business first.
That's something I'm not positive about, but I do think it must be easy to fake feedback simply based on how many scammers I've seen with feedback-padding from their own buyer account(s).
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Of course, maybe this issue steals the limelight from another: how easy or difficult it is to fake feedback (another ongoing topic). If it's relatively easy to do, then nobody needs to buy a vendor account; just invent some business first.
The decision to reverse the policy on selling acc./s was possibly not the brightest move on SR. I am wondering about the percentage of vendors that keep addresses, but realise that they'd never tell you. If vendors can sell their acc./s to just anyone, who is to say that recipient is not LE?
As to faking FB, it happens all the time. Some are quite obvious, and some you have to do some digging. It's something that becomes easier over time.
Piece, Love, and Fuck Haters.
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I don't want to monopolize the thread, but on faking feedback, that's what I figured. And tempting, I would think, to a new vendor, especially one who justifies it to him/herself as a legit vendor who just needs a "head start".
I'd described my process for checking out new-ish vendors in a thread awhile back - check their forum review thread if they have one (if not, then they're out), look for established forum users leaving positive reviews (if only noobs, then they're out), and then check *their* history to see if the posters seem legit, have consistent personalities and a mix of reviews (if not... you get the idea). Had a vendor come scream and shout about how this was nonsense, it's "impossible" to fake feedback, blah blah blah. Way overblown reaction (rather telling if you ask me). But how hard can it be? Couple minutes per buyer account, no cost, transfer some btc, make some straw purchases. Don't even have to ship anything.
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I don't want to monopolize the thread, but on faking feedback, that's what I figured. And tempting, I would think, to a new vendor, especially one who justifies it to him/herself as a legit vendor who just needs a "head start".
I'd described my process for checking out new-ish vendors in a thread awhile back - check their forum review thread if they have one (if not, then they're out), look for established forum users leaving positive reviews (if only noobs, then they're out), and then check *their* history to see if the posters seem legit, have consistent personalities and a mix of reviews (if not... you get the idea). Had a vendor come scream and shout about how this was nonsense, it's "impossible" to fake feedback, blah blah blah. Way overblown reaction (rather telling if you ask me). But how hard can it be? Couple minutes per buyer account, no cost, transfer some btc, make some straw purchases. Don't even have to ship anything.
Feedback from buyers with no purchase history don't count towards anything. There is a large mathematical formula for how feedback is calculated. They take into account how many purchases you have made, the amount you have spent in the past, the amount you are spending on the item and some other shit.
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Slick Willy with the good info. :) Thanks, J'N'H - that's interesting.
So would the fake buyers gain numerical legitimacy through fake sales to the fake vendor? It's enough to make oldtoby's head spin.
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Slick Willy with the good info. :) Thanks, J'N'H - that's interesting.
So would the fake buyers gain numerical legitimacy through fake sales to the fake vendor? It's enough to make oldtoby's head spin.
Yes. Or if several vendors conspired together to use fake buyer accounts and buy from each other repeatedly then their feedback would hold a lot more weight.
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I don't want to monopolize the thread, but on faking feedback, that's what I figured. And tempting, I would think, to a new vendor, especially one who justifies it to him/herself as a legit vendor who just needs a "head start".
I'd described my process for checking out new-ish vendors in a thread awhile back - check their forum review thread if they have one (if not, then they're out), look for established forum users leaving positive reviews (if only noobs, then they're out), and then check *their* history to see if the posters seem legit, have consistent personalities and a mix of reviews (if not... you get the idea). Had a vendor come scream and shout about how this was nonsense, it's "impossible" to fake feedback, blah blah blah. Way overblown reaction (rather telling if you ask me). But how hard can it be? Couple minutes per buyer account, no cost, transfer some btc, make some straw purchases. Don't even have to ship anything.
I've been saying that for a while now. Over time it becomes second nature to mini-review a vendor of their post count, karma, join date and what they say in the posts, but a lot of people don't. Fortunately most shill acc./s are really easy to spot. Sometimes though the best review is word of mouth from a proven forum member. The review thread is sometimes not what it can be, I tried to look into before some idiot trolled my thread, but some reviews are posted under duress and some are posted influenced by karma. Anything too commercial I just put in the bin, and if I have a question about a vendor's gear, it's sometimes better to just ask a regular buyer from them and they should tell you straight.
Piece, Love, and Fuck Haters.
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By the time I finally reply the topic has changed. :-\ Well, at least my pets are no longer following me around after every post I make and then locking the thread, so thank god for small favours. ::)
Piece, Love, and Fuck Haters.
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By the time I finally reply the topic has changed. :-\ Well, at least my pets are no longer following me around after every post I make and then locking the thread, so thank god for small favours. ::)
Piece, Love, and Fuck Haters.
Stop acting like an infant, Razorspyne. You're only succeeding in making yourself look foolish. You don't have to agree with moderator decisions, but they are what they are - there's no legitimate reason to troll other threads crying about it simply because other threads got locked for the reasons stated in them.
My reason for locking a thread you started was given in it.
That reason is available here:
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=160934.msg1184275#msg1184275
It devolved from a legitimate discussion into ongoing personal attacks on each other, thus I deemed it off topic - and detrimental enough to this community - to lock it.
Libertas
Lib, I have no idea what you are trying to achieve following me around on every post I make and chiming in with unintelligent insults. You really need to grow up and stop your bickering. The fact that you have so much free time on your hands to follow members and target them with personal agendas only proves you not up to the task. Shame you to see a mod carry on this way. :-\ It doesn't look good.
Go see a movie or something, you sound like you need to do something social. :)
Piece, Love, and Fuck Haters.
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I don't think there's much of a chance of getting DPR to change this policy.
I'm pretty sure that DPR is always going to be down with Vendor account selling. It's kind of in his DNA. If he wasn't down with it, SR would be run by the Dread Pirate Wesley.
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By the time I finally reply the topic has changed. :-\ Well, at least my pets are no longer following me around after every post I make and then locking the thread, so thank god for small favours. ::)
Piece, Love, and Fuck Haters.
Stop acting like an infant, Razorspyne. You're only succeeding in making yourself look foolish. You don't have to agree with moderator decisions, but they are what they are - there's no legitimate reason to troll other threads crying about it simply because other threads got locked for the reasons stated in them.
My reason for locking a thread you started was given in it.
That reason is available here:
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=160934.msg1184275#msg1184275
It devolved from a legitimate discussion into ongoing personal attacks on each other, thus I deemed it off topic - and detrimental enough to this community - to lock it.
Libertas
Lib, I have no idea what you are trying to achieve following me around on every post I make and chiming in with unintelligent insults. You really need to grow up and stop your bickering. The fact that you have so much free time on your hands to follow members and target them with personal agendas only proves you not up to the task. Shame you to see a mod carry on this way. :-\ It doesn't look good.
Go see a movie or something, you sound like you need to do something social. :)
Piece, Love, and Fuck Haters.
Sorry Razorspyne,but the moderators lives don't revolve around you. If you have an issue with me, feel free to PM me to discuss it. Otherwise, you can always put me on your ignore list. :)
Libertas
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An account is tangible, and it can be sold with or without the consent of SR. This is fact, just as much as it is technically possible for someone to make transactions outside of the escrow system by sending bitcoins (stupidly) to a user directly. It's also possible to retain addresses, names, and so on. There are a lot of things that "can" happen with or without systems, but just as the rules don't allow for the retainment of addresses, "can" should never mean an apathy towards saying no at all.
The value of an account is immediately apparent no matter how you approach this: reputation drives demand. That is all there is to it. If someone wants to sell an account for a hefty premium, in order to make one last sale & reap the rewards of having been an awesome seller, then they're going to do it because someone will buy.
Rules don't need to be strict yes or no answers. While we continue to repeat that it'll happen no matter what, placing rules on it that state it comes with stricter responsibilities for the new owner (ie, a probationary period), gives one benefit regardless of what happens; If the new seller does not hold up to the reputation those who continue purchasing from, and it becomes apparent that this new vendor is not filling the shoes of the departed, then it is far easier to protect future victims from the continued exploitation of that accounts' good name. Protecting the customer, is what gives value to a reputable seller in the first place. The feedback system won't solve that.
Blindly allowing it to happen and turning the other cheek, only means that the probability/possibility of negative results increases. Perhaps a way to control it would be to allow a seller to change his/her password & pin to one that on first login places a time-based permanent label on the sellers profile and any seller-identification that the shop is under new management, and when they've adequately proven themselves to desire holding up the good name... it can be removed.
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A vendor account is like a company, companies change owners. Some accounts might be one person, but the bigger ones are orginizations. Not sure if it is an issue if the customers are notified of the change of ownership.
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let the polls speak! :)
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Fuck the polls. . . fuck haters.
I bought a vendor account and did everything right with products and promotion and shipping. To the fucking book.
I invested over $2200. to get started. I've earned $43. in 5 months here on the road.
There was the hack, the ruined 420 sale, scams gallore. .
Now, how do I break even? I need to be able to sell this vendor account to recover a small fraction of my losses.
Business is a risk, but SR doesn't exactly provide support to starving vendors. Sales suck. People only buy from large vendors. Everyone thinks new vendors are scammers.
SR almost bankrupted me sending out free samples, thinking I was going to make money like the big vendors. People just took the freebees and ran. There is also bullying and other mafia-like tactics to discourage new vendors.
I don't feel I got my money's worth from SR account. I feel ripped off because, it actually cost me in BTC which was $960. at the time. Some guys only had to pay $300.-500. wwhen BTXC was low. Not me.
Anyone want to buy a vendor account?
Or buy some of my damn listings .? I actually have mouths to feed and I was misled into believing I could earn money here by doing the same strategies others did. I read every vendor post and did everything to the letter.
Its not that easy. ----> WHY WOULD a successful vendor sell their account? Only new account get sold, accounts that 'didn't work out' . So, what's the big deal? It like buying a semi-new car after a person faulted on teh first payment. Its still new. It still has value. I want that value in my pocket please.
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Fuck the polls. . . fuck haters.
I bought a vendor account and did everything right with products and promotion and shipping. To the fucking book.
I invested over $2200. to get started. I've earned $43. in 5 months here on the road.
There was the hack, the ruined 420 sale, scams gallore. .
Now, how do I break even? I need to be able to sell this vendor account to recover a small fraction of my losses.
Business is a risk, but SR doesn't exactly provide support to starving vendors. Sales suck. People only buy from large vendors. Everyone thinks new vendors are scammers.
SR almost bankrupted me sending out free samples, thinking I was going to make money like the big vendors. People just took the freebees and ran. There is also bullying and other mafia-like tactics to discourage new vendors.
I don't feel I got my money's worth from SR account. I feel ripped off because, it actually cost me in BTC which was $960. at the time. Some guys only had to pay $300.-500. wwhen BTXC was low. Not me.
Anyone want to buy a vendor account?
Or buy some of my damn listings .? I actually have mouths to feed and I was misled into believing I could earn money here by doing the same strategies others did. I read every vendor post and did everything to the letter.
Its not that easy. ----> WHY WOULD a successful vendor sell their account? Only new account get sold, accounts that 'didn't work out' . So, what's the big deal? It like buying a semi-new car after a person faulted on teh first payment. Its still new. It still has value. I want that value in my pocket please.
No really successful vendor that took pride in their account would. I know I wouldn't want The Scurvy Crew run by someone I didn´t know who was possibly incompetent.
As for your account I may be able to help. What do you sell wand where are you located? PM me.
ACE