Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: primeroll on May 14, 2013, 11:54 am
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a friend of mine who does frequent orders off the silk road had an idea to get an anonymous p.o. box.
he already has a fake i.d. of the state we live and i guess he photoshopped a utility bill or something.
anyway heres his plan.. go there, use a fake i.d. and that utility bill to obtain a p.o. box.
have all his internet purchases sent there in the name he used along with his silk road orders.
im no expert on the matter and he doesnt search the forums and as far as he knows i dont even
know how to get on the silk road. (lol)
any flaws in this plan? if so what would you recommend for obtaining an anonymous p.o. box?
all advice is appreciated!!!
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Other than if a schedule one or two package gets intercepted he will be facing more charges, no other flaws. That would be another federal crime on top of the federal crime of receiving narcotics in the mail.
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how would they know its him?
and how would you suggest receiving packages safely or safer than that?
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Because if his order got intercepted then he would go to pick up his package like normal and.... well you can figure out the rest... ::)
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Yeah, I don't like the idea.. it only implies his guilt if something does get intercepted, and like jack said; stacking federal charges is a no-no to me. The protection provided seems outweighed by the added risk.. Have you ever seen how hard they go after you for fucking with the usps?
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negative my friend.
so the perfect "drop location" is not possible?
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Well, I mean it is possible... but that depends entirely on your situation. Drops are more for protecting personal transactions than the mail.
po boxes are pretty safe really. Just bring a sharpie and write "return to sender" on any package you do pick up.. that way if they are watching you can claim ignorance.
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Bad idea. Do not do it.
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Well, I mean it is possible... but that depends entirely on your situation. Drops are more for protecting personal transactions than the mail.
po boxes are pretty safe really. Just bring a sharpie and write "return to sender" on any package you do pick up.. that way if they are watching you can claim ignorance.
it would have to be sent in my name though
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Doesn't really matter though unless they already have non-circumstantial evidence against you.
I mean somebody could randomly mail you a box full of dead babies in whale oil, but that wouldn't mean that you wanted it.. The justice system won't convict you on that alone.
Deny, deny, then deny some more
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This is useful in the 5 percent of cases where you know the package was intercepted ahead of time. You can throw away the mailbox key, never visit that post office again, and you'll be safe because they won't know who are or where to find you. In the other 95% of cases, you won't have a clue that it was intercepted until you're standing in the post office with the package in your hand and a guy with a badge steps out from behind the counter (or pulls you over a few blocks away).
If you don't get mail there regularly and only visit every few weeks, but show up the day the package is delivered, or the day after, that indicates you had prior knowledge of the package.
IMO, a residential address is safer because you can passively receive the package and choose when to pull it out of the box. LE isn't going to wait around for hours or days, and at all hours of the night, for you to pick up a small amount. They will either knock on your door and see if you accept it, or not deliver it at all (in which case, it will join the ranks of the infamous missing packages). To that end, it's best not to be home when the mail is delivered.
People have proposed using various light sensitive devices that can warn you when the package has been opened. They might be worth it for large orders, but it's also possible for LE to x-ray the package, discover that it contains such a device, and open it in a dark room to field test the drugs. They are also known to use needle-sized poking devices to sample the contents, which leave a hole so small that it probably wouldn't set off the device. To protect against that, you would have to fortify it with a hard internal package, which again isn't worth it for small amounts, when simply mailing the drugs in an envelope is much safer.
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IMO, a residential address is safer because you can passively receive the package and choose when to pull it out of the box. LE isn't going to wait around for hours or days, and at all hours of the night, for you to pick up a small amount. They will either knock on your door and see if you accept it, or not deliver it at all (in which case, it will join the ranks of the infamous missing packages). To that end, it's best not to be home when the mail is delivered.
Agreed.
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Setting up an anon drop is easy.
Doing it properly is moderately difficult.
Having the patience, diligence, and resources to do it professionally... well that's something few people can do.
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a private mailbox is the best way to go, not a p.o box
take your 2 forms of fake i.d, preferably an out of state i.d
yes private mailboxes accept out of state info, of course thats why i need the box. Im in the new state just for work right?
use vendors who use tracking, or get a 24hr private box, or just wait good amounts of time before picking up.
if a pack doesnt come thru, never go back.
and of course you pay cash for the box, duh
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where do you go for one of those?
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I know it's been said, but don't do it. Even if they find nothing illegal mailed to you, finding out its all fake has some serious consequences.
On the flipside, my PO box has been in my name for ever a year now, and I still get mail from the previous person. I've mailed letters in HIS name to my box and they come in. I mailed a package in his name and it's come to him.
Talk about temptation.
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I had a box with a private rental that recently closed (very sad about this) but it was perfect. I didn't do the fake ID route, but easily could have. the only negative was that they asked for ID and proof of residency to open the box...if you want a box with the post office, you don't need proof of residency.
but the positives were great, because it was not a government building, there were no cameras, and i had 24-hour access to my box. so I could just drive around the place at 1am to make sure no one's watching and do a real quick grab.
writing "return to sender" on every drug package you receive is a very good idea.
also, you want all your packages to come to a fake business name... "Bill's Bargain Bin" or "WEI Retro gaming" something like that. so if shit did hit the fan, your name is no where on the package, and it has "return to sender" written on it. yes it will still suck being taken in for questioning and possibly being held for the night or whatever, but you'll get off free due to lack of evidence. especially if you keep your fucking mouth shut.
but since that closed up and the next closest private mailbox rental is a long way away from me, i'm going back to the post office next time i need to make an order. you can still have shit sent to a business name with a PO box...i just get sketched out going into gov't property, and having my face recognized by the clerks.
definitely wouldn't do the fake ID thing, cuz if shit does hit the fan you will have to RUN and not get caught. if shit hits the fan like in the previous scenario i outlined, you're definitely guilty of fraud, and that shows that you probably did it for the reason of receiving drugs in the mail. the "ignorance" plea won't fly with a jury unless you've got the most expensive lawyer in your local city.
if you insist on doing the fake ID, i'd say the only thing you could do to protect yourself would be to pay a bum or crackhead to go check your mail for you. just make sure you or your people are there to supervise the pickup so you don't get ripped off.
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For all you nay sayers to the double fake info on a private box.
The only chance you would get caught would be them staking out your box for days on end waiting inside of the business?
or they get your fake info from the business and start searching for a fake person in another state, good luck.
if its a 24hr drop, you're golden.
I'd rather do all of that then just send shit to my house and play the denial card.
^THAT is stupid to me.
To each his own, and when im speaking, im speaking in terms of buying large amounts of bulk off here, not personal use amounts.
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The perfect drop is to do some charity, get a hobo and give him a place, then order all your drugs in his name through it. If he takes your drugs then go to the cops and tell him that you think this hobo youve generously housed has drugs in his place, then find another hobo. If he gets caught then he goes to jail and you've housed him for 20 to life.
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Because if his order got intercepted then he would go to pick up his package like normal and.... well you can figure out the rest... ::)
But what if the vendor he works with keeps a list of customer addresses to turn into the police after being arrested? Wouldn't it be better if the vendor only has fake information? Then if he learns the vendor was arrested, he can drop that box and cut any link his identity has to that vendor. I know a lot of people who use fake ID boxes and in many cases they have learned a vendor they work with was compromised and dropped the boxes. What if he orders from a vendor and learns that everybody else who ordered from the vendor had an interception? Wouldn't it be better to be able to not go and pick up the package, than to have the package delivered right to him? I know this has happened in many cases as well. What if he orders from somebody who decides to blackmail him with his address? This has certainly happened to many people in the past. What if he just wants to switch up boxes every now and then? Perhaps he works with several vendors who send packages to his fake ID box, and then he switches to a new fake ID box and doesn't bring some of the old vendors over to it? Now he has reduced his threat surface area, because less vendors know his shipping information than would be the case if he used his real address (and identity).
What if he wants to make it more expensive for the police to arrest him? Look at what happened to Enelysion. They followed him around watching him send out orders, and they recorded the shipping information on several of his outgoing packages. They didn't follow up with all of those people, but they definitely have their addresses recorded. The same thing happened with Raw Deal and Webtryp, they had thousands of addresses compiled but didn't follow up on all of them. In all of these cases we learned of the operations before everybody was followed up on. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to drop a box and know that your address isn't on a big list of addresses of people known to order illegal drugs? Didn't a lot of people who ordered from the farmers market end up getting letters from the feds saying to stop ordering drugs? Wouldn't it be nice if those letters went to boxes registered with fake ID and long since dropped? I know several people who ordered from joot up until he was busted, and the ones who had shipments sent to fake ID boxes and who dropped them immediately after learning he was busted certainly slept sounder.
What about when your tracking says that your package was intercepted by the feds? Wouldn't it be nice to know that they are not going to be able to link it to you, because you are never going to go and pick it up?
I am still very convinced that using fake ID box is the best technique, particularly if you have an in state fake ID. The argument that using your real address gives you plausible deniability is totally flawed, the police will simply wait for you to open the package and then raid you. In one case they waited a full day and pulled the person over the next day as he left his house. The only good argument against fake ID boxes is that it adds an additional charge if you are ever caught, but I certainly think it reduces the risk of you getting caught in the first place.
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Although Enelysion as an example goes both ways, as he was arrested using a fake ID box. They staked it out for days and put him under surveillance after they saw him try to pick up a shipment of methylone that had been intercepted (he got a love letter). They kept him under surveillance for weeks after identifying him in that way. Although it was no worse for him than if he got the package sent right to his house, in which case they wouldn't have even had to do surveillance on his fake ID box for days waiting to identify him and covertly follow him back home.
For me the advantages of a fake ID box just strongly lead me to think it is the best option.
1. It requires more police resources to CD someone using a fake ID box (although it can certainly be done)
2. It prevents the vendor from easily learning the real information of the customer (although it could possibly be done with a private detective or similar)
3. It prevents the police from monitoring a vendors outgoing packages and easily compiling a customer list of real customer information
4. It lets people compartmentalize, after a drop has had a lot of packages from a lot of vendors it can be dropped and not all of the old vendors will learn the new drop
5. It lets people drop boxes in emergency situations, (ie: a vendor they work with gets busted and they find out about it)
6. It opens up all kinds of possibility for the police to fuck up or act too slowly (ie: tracking says the package is seized, it is held by customs for an extended period of time, it is an overnight package that is several days late, etc). I know one case where someone ordered small dealer quantities of marijuana and their package just never arrived, several weeks later they got a knock on the door from the postal inspectors.
those are the advantages. The disadvantages are
1. It has the possibility of adding an additional charge if you are arrested
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This is useful in the 5 percent of cases where you know the package was intercepted ahead of time. You can throw away the mailbox key, never visit that post office again, and you'll be safe because they won't know who are or where to find you. In the other 95% of cases, you won't have a clue that it was intercepted until you're standing in the post office with the package in your hand and a guy with a badge steps out from behind the counter (or pulls you over a few blocks away).
IMO, a residential address is safer because you can passively receive the package and choose when to pull it out of the box. LE isn't going to wait around for hours or days, and at all hours of the night, for you to pick up a small amount. They will either knock on your door and see if you accept it, or not deliver it at all (in which case, it will join the ranks of the infamous missing packages). To that end, it's best not to be home when the mail is delivered.
The reason you give for using a residential address sounds like it is a good reason for using a PMB obtained with a fake ID. If you order a package to a residential address LE doesn't need to wait around for days or hours, they know where you live already. They will either knock on your door and see if you accept it, or they will just raid you anyway because they already know a package with illegal drugs was sent to you and they can probably get a warrant to search your house based on that alone. In the case of a fake ID box, they have no door to knock on and no home to raid until they identify you picking up the package and follow you back to wherever you live or ID your car. And in cases where they are not going to do anything at all, wouldn't it be better for them to not do anything against a fake name and address that isn't linkable to you, than for them to do nothing against your real name and address (other than make a note of it).
Although you may only be tipped of to an interception in advance 5% of the time (I can think of a few examples of this happening, although I agree it is rare overall. Two general themes: tracking let it slip, or everybody who ordered from the vendor starts getting CDed at once), you might learn that a vendor you worked with has been arrested 50% of the time. It is much more common for someone to learn a vendor they worked with has been arrested than it is for someone to learn that a package they had has been intercepted. Or maybe the vendor simply disappears. Maybe this is more common on tighter community oriented forums where everybody talks regularly with each other, and you notice an unexplained absence of a vendor and nobody knows what happened to them (until you check for drug busts in the area they shipped from and piece together what happened. Note that this happened with enelysion, in the case of Joot we learned about it from the court documents very shortly after TFM went down, etc). Then you need to consider some vendors are probably keeping customer shipping information to aide them in plea bargaining. Or maybe the busted vendor even had outgoing package addresses recorded (enelysion did) and your address in on a list. No interception to you has happened yet, but packages to that address are probably way more likely to be intercepted in the future!
And better not order from an asshole who will blackmail you with your real address.
People have proposed using various light sensitive devices that can warn you when the package has been opened. They might be worth it for large orders, but it's also possible for LE to x-ray the package, discover that it contains such a device, and open it in a dark room to field test the drugs. They are also known to use needle-sized poking devices to sample the contents, which leave a hole so small that it probably wouldn't set off the device. To protect against that, you would have to fortify it with a hard internal package, which again isn't worth it for small amounts, when simply mailing the drugs in an envelope is much safer.
Vacuum seal the device with the drugs and have it detect the presence of oxygen then. I would be less worried about LE x-raying the package and finding it has some obscure electronic device in it and more worried about LE x-raying the package and finding that it has some pills or powdery substances wrapped up inside of it.
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kmfkewm. i wish i knew how to give karma because i like your style.
say that hypothetically i had multiple in my operation and we all got fake a fake i.d.
and we rotated renting a box with them (every purchase of one is 1 month)
and always in a different location however the same location could be used once for all of us.
also i found a private post office box that has 24 hour access in a location thats very easy
to tell if someone is "staking it out" however it does have 1 camera
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I have not always even had my fake ID photocopied at mom and pop places. Go to the poorest area around you and find a mom and pop box place. They have the worst security and follow procedure the worst. Getting a box at PO is the worst option, and UPS store or other chains are a bad idea too. You have to be careful about electronic stake outs as well, they could put GPS devices inside the package. Best practice is to open and inspect the package before ever taking it back to a location linkable to you. Grab the package, put in layered anti static bags or similar to kill any included devices ability to transmit, take it to a random location that is hard to quickly access by car, and quickly check it for tracking devices, ditch the packaging somewhere and then go back to your pad. Make sure not to have a cell phone on you as well. I am a fan of using public transportation as much as possible during the entire process as well, from you to the box to the random location and back to your house.
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What's a love letter?
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love letter is a letter from customs or something else saying your package was illegal and its been seized.
ill probably get a fake i.d. and have everything even my non illegal packages sent there to "vincents gaming"
or something like that.
its 24 hours, i can easily disguise myself for their dinosaur camera, and its in a location that i can easily
see if its being watched first. as far as tracking on the package i need to figure that one out.
im really uncomfortable driving with the amounts that will be being shipped there if they arent packaged
also have my girlfriend open up a small fake one and have a large amount of shipping
supplies sent to it and then never return.
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to your question. ive thought the EXACT same thing but if they have your real name they can check the dmv
or your social security number for places youve worked and figured out what address you gave them so id rather have a fake name.
but honestly as a vendor myself.. if the police set their sights on me.. its a matter of time if you think about it.
so i think that taking baby steps away from anything putting me in the radar would be wise.
like a fake id and postal box for example.
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I know I am certainly glad that the many vendors I have worked with have no idea what my real identity is. Some of them have been busted. I wouldn't want people who are getting
grilled by the feds and who are facing decades behind bars to know my name and address.
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In addition to what kmfkewm is saying, I think another advantage of a PO box, whether its a fake name or not, is that you control the aspect of delivery far more so than being a passive receiver at a home address. You can know the neighborhood of your Post Office. What kind of traffic is common, are there businesses in the area? Is it rural, suburban or in a city center? Are there nearby structures that could be used as observation posts by police if they wanted to take it that far and not just use car surveillance and on the flip side, are there nearby structures you could use to take advantage of, like parking garages with multiple entries and exits...You know, every time I go to pick up from my PO box I'll spend 20 to 30 minutes just walking around peripheral streets like I'm some neighborhood schmuk out on his health walk. I'm making mental notes....are there cars parked with people sitting in them. Is anyone else out walking on the street? Have I seen any patrol cars cruising around?
All of these things give you, the receiver, that much more control.
I make the opposite argument. I feel much safer at home. It's my turf, my street. I know every car that parks on the street. If an unrecognized car was parked a block away on the day that I was expecting a package, I wouldn't pull it out of the box right then.
A post office is foreign territory. Anyone can park in the lot, making it harder to look for suspicious cars. LE can be in the back of the building. They are unlikely to be sitting in your living room, waiting for you to come inside with the package.
I feel like I have much more control over the situation at home, although in reality we have little control over either situation. Quite frankly, if LE wants to CD you, there's not much you can do. They've busted millions of people that way and know what they are doing. You aren't going to escape. You will be arrested, whether you physically handle / accept the package or not. Rejecting the package or writing "return to sender" won't protect you. They will have a search warrant already, which they will execute and they will raid your place. Even if they find nothing, they know that some percentage of people will be scared shitless and talk, and there's a good chance you will. Everyone is a hero until the men with badges are standing in their living room. Look how many people have flipped, especially in the hacker community, but it happens often in the drug and activist communities too. There was some hardcore anarchist woman who became an informant when she was raided. That's why I say other people are the biggest attack surface against you. The technology we use is much more reliable. Other people are the least reliable and nobody should know about your business. Nobody knows about mine. There is not one person in my real life that knows I'm associated with this community, or that I got quoted in Forbes, LOL.
We can go back and forth about the advantages and disadvantages of home versus remote shipping locations, and this debate breaks out once every few months it seems (with no resolution), but I think ultimately, your best defense is to order amounts so small that they don't care about you. Because otherwise, there is no fool proof packaging method or shipping location.
If their attention is drawn to your package, there is no shipping method good enough to escape detection. If you can find the drugs, they can find the drugs. They have dogs, x-rays and chemical tests which you don't have. Yesterday there was a thread about how they detected LSD soaked in stickers. They could detect illegal drugs in a mixture that is 99.9% inert carrier, from which you are supposed to re-extract the drugs. Read the old Microgram Bulletins. There are some very creative stealth shipping methods, much more creative and stealthy than anything I've seen from SR vendors, and all of them were detected, or they would not have been featured in that publication. Yeah, they can find everything if they are suspicious enough. There's no way to make the drugs magically disappear inside the package.
Likewise, with the shipping location, if it's a large amount, you are pretty much guaranteed to get arrested. If they want to find you, they will find you eventually. You only need to fuck up once. I just operate on that assumption and never order large amounts.
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dont go for a post office. find a private mailbox. i just found a place called "mail and more" (thats not the real name for my safety)
but they offer 24 hour access to their po boxes that have 1 camera watching them thats bigger than my computer monitor :P
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Rejecting the package or writing "return to sender" won't protect you
More than any other piece of advice I've read, I wish we could burn this into everyone's brain. I hate it, absolutely hate it, when I see someone write "Dude, if you just keep a marker with you and write return to sender, then you're golden". It is the stupidest fucking thing I have ever seen in my life. Yeah, I can imagine that court case.
Prosecuting attorney: "Well your honor, we'd like to file a motion to dismiss the case because, damn it all, the legal genius sitting in that chair over there beat my entire law school training by writing the lyrics to an Elvis Presley song on his mail".
Judge: "Motion granted. Case dismissed." (Wild applause fill the courtroom)
Astor, I completely understand what you're saying....if they are going to arrest you, they are going to arrest you, package received or not. I guess in my thinking, by keeping things away from my domicile, I am forcing them away from my home to a small extent and that gives me piece of mind. Granted, nothing is stopping them from having that warrant that states upon receipt of package we now have the right to search the home address of the receiver.
I have read about enough controlled deliveries involving PO boxes to believe that there are more cases than not where the police are relying on the stupidity of the guy going to the Post Office box to pick up his mail. I'm talking about people blowing past all kinds of warning signs that something is not right....One fellow in New Jersey received a phone call from his post office saying "Your package is here!" He went, signed for it, was busted at the counter. Some girls in Indiana went to pick up 28 grams of mephedrone at the post office and instead of it being in their box, despite it being in an envelope that could have easily fit in their box, it was at the counter. One girl signed, the other waited in the vehicle. By the time they got home the sheriff's department was inside the house waiting for them. That is why a lot of times, if I feel weird about my surroundings, if I feel strange for whatever reason and I can see the mail is sitting in the box, I'll just walk away without actually taking the package.
I think ultimately, your best defense is to order amounts so small that they don't care about you. Because otherwise, there is no fool proof packaging method or shipping location.
That right there is in my opinion the best defense anyone can ever have. We may disagree on our approaches Astor but there is no getting around the preceding quote. Your best defense is going to be an amount so small no one is going to want to waste their time. Thank you for this lively discussion and thank you for pointing things out to me that I have been a little too gung-ho to consider. I don't know every damn thing and its people like you that help me realize that.
PS I laughed really hard at you mentioning the Forbes quote.