Silk Road forums

Discussion => Security => Topic started by: cowpie34 on February 24, 2013, 12:44 am

Title: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: cowpie34 on February 24, 2013, 12:44 am
I'm most interested if anonymous video chat would be possible?  And I'm second most interested in if something like a phone call could be done?  Thanks!
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: wasta on February 24, 2013, 02:15 pm
I am not a specialist.

Only TOR does not encrypt. Onion sites should be save, but I have no trust. Sooner or later L.E. will have access to the last TOR-node. At wikileaks spycables you will find the machines for mass analyzing and storage of TOR data. A site like Silkroadmarketplace is a high target for our agentcy's like Scotland yard, the D.E.A., and our secret services. When you give your address you should use gpg. You will be save when you use tor2web or other means to use the silkroad without a torbrowser.

 But I don't think it can be done. For the same reason that it is not possible to watch youtube through tor. If you can watch youtube through tor, you could shut down tor just the same.
All skype is stored aswell.
To watch youtube safely you should download the movie and watch it later. That is the only save way.
That has nothing to do with a chat anymore.

Video-chat like ""skype"" will be never possible.
For just watching youtube goes the same thing, it will be never possible to watch youtube with TOR.
This is due to the flash driver and the way it works from point to point.

Text chat and even voicechat should be possible over tor, they don't need flash.

The encryption of the BlackBerry was save, but has been cracked. Even the new encryption is already cracked too.

Some expensive cellphones claim to have a encryption that should be safe.
I do not know what encryption they use, but if that's the new enhanced type 2 encryption, then you should save your money.
Those Israelish have cracked every encryption that is in use right now.
(the blackbarry encryptions 1 and 2 and other communication encryption, not the gpg encryptions)
Those militairy gear to intercept cellphone-data can be used without any telephone-company or police or any other government ever knowing anything about it.
The can take over every cellphone and turn on the microphone.
Every cellphone is can be turned in to a microphone to listen all what is said in the whole room.
You will see no change in your display.
The can do as if they are you and take any e mei nr and cellphone number  they want.
To listen to conversations is childsplay for them.

And those Palastines keep suspecting people for sionage, while it is just there cellphone that reveals the info.
But that they don't seem to understand.
So they shoot those people and drag them to the streets.
Innocent or not, that doesn't matter.
They were the only ones who knew so they have to the spy for Israel.
How civilized!

If you want to prevent that the government is listening to the conversations in your room, you have to build in a switch so you can set your micrphone off.
Every sellphone sold in the E.U. has to have a automatic answer device, otherwise it can't be sold.
Not that every cellphone has one for your eyes, but it has.
So if the government wants to listen what is said is a room, the phone may not give a ringing sound.
That would give away the eavesdropping from the secret service.

It would be easy to build in a pager ( you know those devices which woked after 1/2 year without changing the battery, penlite or aaa) so the cellphone could be turned on after the pager received a call.
Then your cellphone could put itself on, so you could easily use your phone without charging it for over 2 years. But your government want to know your whereabouts, so that's why you have to recharge every 10 to 14 days your cellphone again, and again and again.
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: masterblaster on February 25, 2013, 12:26 am
anonymous networks are high latency therefore realtime communication is impossible (and not very safe as timing attacks are easily done). you can do chat in near real time through tor, use torchat or use pidgin w/ otc over tor. if you dont mind being connected to whomever youre communicating with you can use the zrtp protocol with your voip client and your communication will be encrypted.
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: The Advocate on February 25, 2013, 02:23 am
Is TorChat an instant messenger?
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: SelfSovereignty on February 25, 2013, 03:05 am
It's... effectively an instant messenger, yes.  I mean for end users, yeah, it's pretty much an instant messenger.  The actual details of how it does that anonymously are a little different than AIM or something, but whatever.

It always amazes me when I see people saying "never, never, never."  Anything is possible.  Anything.  Hell, it's possible the moon will explode and shower me with silvery glittering bitcoins...!  Will it happen?  I highly doubt it; but I'm not willing to say that it cannot happen no matter what considering the jumble of particles floating around the immediate area of Earth's orbit.

... alright, so maybe not bitcoins... that would be a digital concept given physical form.  That part's impossible.  But you get my point.
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: The Advocate on March 19, 2013, 09:10 am
It's... effectively an instant messenger, yes.  I mean for end users, yeah, it's pretty much an instant messenger.  The actual details of how it does that anonymously are a little different than AIM or something, but whatever.

It always amazes me when I see people saying "never, never, never."  Anything is possible.  Anything.  Hell, it's possible the moon will explode and shower me with silvery glittering bitcoins...!  Will it happen?  I highly doubt it; but I'm not willing to say that it cannot happen no matter what considering the jumble of particles floating around the immediate area of Earth's orbit.

... alright, so maybe not bitcoins... that would be a digital concept given physical form.  That part's impossible.  But you get my point.

What makes TorChat so dangerous?
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: SelfSovereignty on March 19, 2013, 10:55 pm
What makes TorChat so dangerous?

Pardon?  I don't believe it is terribly dangerous.  I mean it isn't 100% safe, but as far as anonymous encrypted conversations go, it's basically the best option I know of.  Everything else either reveals your identity or isn't encrypted at all.  Really what TorChat does is set up a hidden Tor service that people connect to in order to chat with you.  It's about as safe as any hidden Tor service, such as the Silk Road site (or any onion site).  I'm not sure who said it's dangerous...?
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: wasta on March 20, 2013, 12:09 am
What makes TorChat so dangerous?

Pardon?  I don't believe it is terribly dangerous.  I mean it isn't 100% safe, but as far as anonymous encrypted conversations go, it's basically the best option I know of.  Everything else either reveals your identity or isn't encrypted at all.  Really what TorChat does is set up a hidden Tor service that people connect to in order to chat with you.  It's about as safe as any hidden Tor service, such as the Silk Road site (or any onion site).  I'm not sure who said it's dangerous...?

At silkroad you have to use gpg when you give your address. Everything what you see is seen by L.E.. Tor only hides your ip and to your ip is your homeaddress connected. Silkroad is safe to watch, but all you write is read by L.E.
Except if you use gpg, then it is unreadable. But all you see is abracadabra too, Only the receiver of the message can uncrypt the message with his gpg.

Silkroad is not safe at all. Only if you use gpg.
Some sellers do not even send you anything if you don't use gpg.
If you give your address without gpg, L.E. knows that you are expecting mail.
If it is worth the chase, you will never receive your item, cause you didnt use gpg.

Tor doesn't encrypt!
It only hides your ip and with that , the place where you are, nothing more !
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: sleepyeyes2k2 on March 20, 2013, 12:25 am
Quote
Those Israelish have cracked every encryption that is in use right now.

Bend tin-foil, attach hat.  That is complete bullshit, and by bullshit, I mean utterly unsupportable.  Oh, I've read the conspiracy theorists who claim that RSA secretly runs the NSA.  Those are the people who say the moon landing was faked.  I must inform you, my friend:  humans have walked upon the lunar surface, and no computer in existence (or, since any computer is theoretically limited by the speed of light, no computer which will likely ever exist) can "crack" your PGP encryption key.  Maybe they guessed your passphrase was "grassyknoll", and got you that way.  "Dec212012" is a likely candidate, too.  Anyhoo, you cannot possibly provide evidence for what you're selling with that one.

Quote
Pardon?  I don't believe it is terribly dangerous.  I mean it isn't 100% safe, but as far as anonymous encrypted conversations go, it's basically the best option I know of.

Yeah, another thing you can do is run your IM program of choice (preferably pidgin or ICQ, because of the OTR plug-in) through a proxy separate from Tor.  But, I mean, not like your personal one, with your noncriminal friends.  I know you know that, SS, that was for the masses.  But, proxies cost money, and if all you want them for is chat, you prolly won't want to spend the coin. 

Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: Moldybread on March 20, 2013, 12:33 am
Quote
Tor doesn't encrypt!
It only hides your ip and with that , the place where you are, nothing more !

You are talking complete bullshit. The Tor network is fully encrypted with PGP/AES encryption. Noone can read the information sent through it.
The only thing that can be read is if you use clearnet sites via tor, because the connection from the last tor node to the actual website is a standard http connection and therefore unencrypted. Connections to hidden services are completely unreadable.

The additional Pgp encryption we use on Silkroad is in case LE or someone else gains control over the physical server.
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: astor on March 20, 2013, 12:48 am
anonymous networks are high latency therefore realtime communication is impossible (and not very safe as timing attacks are easily done).

It's more difficult, but not impossible. Audio in particular seems to work, with the obvious 1-2 second delay.

High quality video is too high bandwidth, but low quality video might work. The biggest problem would be frequent disconnects, especially if both parties are hidden services.

Here's the Tails project research on the subject: https://tails.boum.org/todo/VoIP_support/
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: astor on March 20, 2013, 12:57 am
What makes TorChat so dangerous?

It turns you into a hidden service, opening you up to attacks that regular Tor users are not susceptible to, such as

http://freehaven.net/anonbib/date.html#hs-attack06

Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: sleepyeyes2k2 on March 20, 2013, 01:04 am
Quote
It turns you into a hidden service, opening you up to attacks that regular Tor users are not susceptible to, such as

The way I understand it (which is clearly imperfect, but which is helpful to me), it's like checking the box in your profile here that says "allow other users to see when I'm online."  Except, they don't know who you are, exactly, but you can be detected as being online using certain methods.  And, that can make you more vulnerable.

Meh.  Chat's overrated.  :)
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: astor on March 20, 2013, 01:09 am
In a very rough sense, yes.

As a regular Tor user, your client makes requests and open connections to other servers. When you (effectively) become a server, because your client is a hidden service, others can open connections to you. That's where new attacks come in.

It's *kind of* like broadcasting your online status, and allowing strangers to find you.
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: SelfSovereignty on March 20, 2013, 01:29 am
Astor makes good points (as always).  I do think it's worth noting though that they got the LulzSec guys almost entirely through regular means.  Same with the Farmer's Market fellows.  All this isn't saying that it's perfectly safe, but if you aren't a high profile target, you're frankly not even interesting enough for them to bother taking notice of you let alone trying to find you.

The hard part is this: they don't exactly tell you that you're a high profile target, which is something I find I keep having to remind myself of...
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: astor on March 20, 2013, 01:36 am
Or to put it another way, if they haven't deanonymized Freedom Hosting and Silk Road, they don't care about deanonymizing you. :)
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: masterblaster on March 20, 2013, 04:01 am
Dont need tor for anonymous audio or text chat, get a prepaid android phone, load redphone and textsecure onto it, now you are anonymous.

Tell me again how tor is supposed to make video chat anonymous?
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: The Advocate on March 20, 2013, 08:44 am
get a prepaid android phone, load redphone and textsecure onto it, now you are anonymous.

Does anyone disagree?
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: wasta on March 20, 2013, 03:07 pm
get a prepaid android phone, load redphone and textsecure onto it, now you are anonymous.

Does anyone disagree?

No one does or can dis agree with that.

That program does turn of all gps satellites out of/in the sky and turn of all wifi you will encounter, turn of and even disable all the normal gsm cellphone connection antenna's so they can not use triangulation and it will hide your phone-number including your emei even for the police ambulances ... sure, that great tool does make you anonymous , totally! Your voice will be changed so no voice-recognition will know that you is you and so on and so on. Great tool !! You don't need nothing else. You can even watch youtube anonymous with it, you probably do not even have to use a simcardchip anymore, because that would gave you your identity away. No need for TOR or gpg. I haven't even started yet, the list is to long  to name all the things what that tool all can do. Best invention ever !

What a question...
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: SelfSovereignty on March 20, 2013, 05:25 pm
get a prepaid android phone, load redphone and textsecure onto it, now you are anonymous.

Does anyone disagree?

No one does or can dis agree with that.

That program does turn of all gps satellites out of/in the sky and turn of all wifi you will encounter, turn of and even disable all the normal gsm cellphone connection antenna's so they can not use triangulation and it will hide your phone-number including your emei even for the police ambulances ... sure, that great tool does make you anonymous , totally! Your voice will be changed so no voice-recognition will now that you is you and so on and so on. Great tool !! You don't need nothing else. You can even watch youtube anonymous with it, you probably do not even have to use a simcardchip anymore, because that would gave you your identity away. No need for TOR or gpg. I haven't even started yet, the list is to long  to name all the things what that tool all can do. Best invention ever !

What a question...

... I hope this was sarcasm.
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: cowpie34 on March 20, 2013, 06:48 pm
I'm a psychologist and I was hoping to do web therapy for SR users  ;)
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: kmfkewm on March 20, 2013, 08:33 pm
What makes TorChat so dangerous?

Pardon?  I don't believe it is terribly dangerous.  I mean it isn't 100% safe, but as far as anonymous encrypted conversations go, it's basically the best option I know of.  Everything else either reveals your identity or isn't encrypted at all.  Really what TorChat does is set up a hidden Tor service that people connect to in order to chat with you.  It's about as safe as any hidden Tor service, such as the Silk Road site (or any onion site).  I'm not sure who said it's dangerous...?

I would avoid Torchat unless you want to open yourself up to all the attacks that hidden services are vulnerable to that regular Tor users are not.

Quote
Tor doesn't encrypt!
It only hides your ip and with that , the place where you are, nothing more !

You are talking complete bullshit. The Tor network is fully encrypted with PGP/AES encryption. Noone can read the information sent through it.
The only thing that can be read is if you use clearnet sites via tor, because the connection from the last tor node to the actual website is a standard http connection and therefore unencrypted. Connections to hidden services are completely unreadable.

The additional Pgp encryption we use on Silkroad is in case LE or someone else gains control over the physical server.

Tor to clearnet encrypts up to the exit node. Tor to hidden service encrypts up to the hidden service. Tor doesn't really use PGP, it doesn't even use only algorithms that are part of the OpenPGP standard. It uses TLS though.

In a very rough sense, yes.

As a regular Tor user, your client makes requests and open connections to other servers. When you (effectively) become a server, because your client is a hidden service, others can open connections to you. That's where new attacks come in.

It's *kind of* like broadcasting your online status, and allowing strangers to find you.

Yep pretty much this.

Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: cowpie34 on March 24, 2013, 05:25 pm
So through what services would you recommend audio chat?  Ty
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: astor on March 24, 2013, 05:41 pm
I would be surprised if anyone here has extensive experience with audio over Tor. I don't, primarily because I'm not too keen on random anons, and possibly LE, being able to hear and record my voice.

However, the Tails people have spoken positively about Mumble: http://mumble.sourceforge.net

I've also heard good things about SFLphone: http://sflphone.org

Although that's only available for Linux.

Presumably for any of these solutions, you would have to run your own server as a hidden service for the client software to connect to. Briefly looking at the Hidden Wikis, I don't see any existing VOIP hidden services.
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: astor on March 25, 2013, 04:06 am
Here's a good article about the issues with VOIP over Tor, and how Mumble is the "state of the art" right now.



Mumble and the Bandwidth – Anonymous CB radio with Mumble and Tor

https://guardianproject.info/2013/01/31/anonymous-cb-radio-with-mumble-and-tor/

The journey towards anonymous and secure voice communication is a long one. There’s lots of roadblocks to get your voice from point A to point B over the Internet if you need to prevent eavesdropping or censorship. There is the limited bandwidth of mobile data connections. There is the high latency of the TCP protocol. To achieve anonymity via Tor, there’s even more latency added to each packet.

Mumble is a non-standard protocol that was originally designed for realtime voice chat for video games. If you’ve ever played Halo or World of Warcraft, this should sound familiar. If not, think of it as a conference call you don’t have to ring. You simply connect to a Mumble server over the Internet and your voice will transmit to everyone else.

Mumble clients are available for Android and iOS, as well as a cross-platform desktop client. The server software is also cross-platform. Guardian Project is focusing on the Android client named Plumble and the official server backported to Debian stable.

A cool feature of Mumble is a Push To Talk (PTT) method to speak to the channel. Your voice is only transmitted when you press the PTT button in the user interface. Another lower level feature that’s important for our anonymity goal is TCP support. For any application to run over Tor, it must use the TCP protocol. This rules out most VoIP clients, since they use UDP. Here is a case where Mumble’s non-standard protocol works to our advantage.

When Tor is running and your Mumble client is configured to use TCP, connecting to your local SOCKS5 proxy offered by Tor allows you to join a Mumble server anonymously. The big problem is as suspected, latency. The traffic passing through the Tor network must make an indeterminate number of proxy hops to be anonymized successfully. Each hop adds more and more latency. This makes a typical syncronous voice call impossible since there’s no way to determine when one person has stopped talking and when the other can respond without interrupting.

Latency in human speech transmision has deep psychological impact on a conversation. A Japanese research project called SpeechJammer exploited this part of our senses by inventing a “shut up gun.” When pointed at a person it makes them immediately stop talking. Everyone who has used a cell phone knows the frustration of “echo” where you hear your own voice, slightly delayed. The delay is caused by the network latency of the cellular carrier.

Another similar example is a VoIP call on a congested network. The side effect of the latency is that one person accidently interrupts the other person because he thinks the other person has finished talking, when in reality the other person’s voice hasn’t yet arrived at the other end. Interruption ensues, no one is happy nor do they know anything new since the transmission was not understood. High latency makes full-duplex communication ineffective.

The contemporary telephone you are acustomed to allows both sides to talk and listen simultaneously. This is called full-duplex. Early radio telephones like walkie talkies, CB radio or aviation radio are half-duplex systems, meaning that for any given transmission, only one side can talk while the other side listens. Running Mumble over Tor takes a full-duplex technology and effectively reduces it to half-duplex. Even though the protocol is full-duplex, when run through a high latency network like Tor, the transmit and receive channels are so far out of sync there is no point in allowng both sides to talk at once. Again, interruption ensues.

Then it hit me. Radio telephones have been around since the turn of the 20th century, when people figured out a reasonable way to do voice chat without the technology causing accidental interruptions in the conversation. In particular, the use of procedure words, or prowords, are essential for one speaker to acknowledge the transmission of the other (Roger), to signify that one party is finished speaking (Over), or indicate when one party has left the conversation (Out).

Here in the USA, some prowords evolved into a coloquial language, complete with slang thanks to the Citizen Band radio boom of the 1960s and the truck driving culture that used it to communicate while on the road. The 1977 film Smokey and the Bandit is more than just a touching love story with world class actors, it is an amazing dramatization of an information culture that resembled pre-Internet BBS systems and current day Internet Relay Chat (IRC) networks around the globe. The truck drivers portrayed in that movie have a mobile, decentralized information sharing network that is anonymous. The users have pseudonyms and a language of their own. Many of them have never met their CB radio friends IRL. They are invisible companions on the lonely road of the US of A.

Old ideas are worth bringing back if they have strong roots. CB and general purpose radio telephones have a long history, unlike the standard the standard of tody, VoIP. Perhaps these features are thought of as obsolete or not cutting-edge enough to model into a digital system. Regardless of the reason, if you are looking for a mobile and open source PTT solution to use on the Internet with anonymity and security, Mumble over Tor is currently the state of the art. All you have to do is throw in some prowords to keep the conversation flowing.

The Guardian Project is operating a private Mumble server during a testing phase, and we have plans to open this to the public as part of the OSTN research effort. When that happens, I will post application-specific tutorials to install and configure the Plumble client. I will also publish a cookbook to build a Mumble server.

Finally, an example transmission log with some prowords:

Internet: Guardian Project. I have a ping response from your server, over.
GP: Roger Internet. Ping was sent, over.
Internet: Guardian Project. Build anonymous PTT system with open source software, over.
GP: Internet, build anonymous PTT system with open source software, wilco. Out.

Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: The Advocate on March 26, 2013, 06:54 am
What makes TorChat so dangerous?

Pardon?  I don't believe it is terribly dangerous.  I mean it isn't 100% safe, but as far as anonymous encrypted conversations go, it's basically the best option I know of.  Everything else either reveals your identity or isn't encrypted at all.  Really what TorChat does is set up a hidden Tor service that people connect to in order to chat with you.  It's about as safe as any hidden Tor service, such as the Silk Road site (or any onion site).  I'm not sure who said it's dangerous...?

I would avoid Torchat unless you want to open yourself up to all the attacks that hidden services are vulnerable to that regular Tor users are not.



It's *kind of* like broadcasting your online status, and allowing strangers to find you.

Yep pretty much this.

Can't Tor already be monitored by one's ISP and LE to determine at what  times a person logs onto Tor, already?

Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: The Advocate on March 26, 2013, 07:54 am
wicked awesome, astor.
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: pine on March 28, 2013, 05:56 am
Fascinating article astor!

My main concern is that I believe some intelligence organizations has "voice fingerprinted" everybody, or at least everybody with a contract. It is right in the NSA's backyard to be fingerprinting voice communications to identify individuals, I reckon it's a very old technology, just not well known in the public domain. Reason #35 way pine doesn't like phones. I don't know how well it scales up, but there is every motivation on their part to make it do so. Reminds me of how the Stazi used to fingerprint typewriters, every typewriter in the Soviet block had to send a 'sample' to a store, so any information later considered subversive could be traced to its source and the author instagulaged. P2P tech <3 I suppose, but not the Skype backdoored kind.

You can easily defeat such methods by using the same technique as Anonymous are currently using, which is to type up something in a word processor and then convert to pdf so Adobe Reader text to audio reads out the message. But then that calls into question the validity of using VOIP in the first place.
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: kmfkewm on March 28, 2013, 06:11 am
I don't understand what the fascination with voice communication is. I absolutely hate voice communication, text is superior in every single way, from a security stand point, from a practicality stand point, etc. Yeah let's use a communication medium that is extraordinarily difficult to secure or anonymize, that requires our dedicated attention to a single conversation at a time, that we cannot replay in our heads verbatim easily, and cannot take time to think of our responses without a lot of awkward pausing. Fuck voice communication entirely. And yeah let's also throw video in so we can communicate our emotions with complex facial gestures IN ADDITION to prosody, instead of using our brains to determine emotional state from situational inference !!! :D :) ( really :/ ) !!
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: astor on March 28, 2013, 03:38 pm
I don't understand what the fascination with voice communication is.

Anonymous sex chat, of course. :)

Oh yeah, baby, over.
Roger, that feels so good, over.
Who the fuck is Roger, are you cheating on me, over?
I didn't mean it like that baby, over.
Fuck you Irene, over and out.

Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: masterblaster on March 28, 2013, 04:05 pm
Fascinating article astor!

My main concern is that I believe some intelligence organizations has "voice fingerprinted" everybody, or at least everybody with a contract. It is right in the NSA's backyard to be fingerprinting voice communications to identify individuals, I reckon it's a very old technology, just not well known in the public domain. Reason #35 way pine doesn't like phones. I don't know how well it scales up, but there is every motivation on their part to make it do so. Reminds me of how the Stazi used to fingerprint typewriters, every typewriter in the Soviet block had to send a 'sample' to a store, so any information later considered subversive could be traced to its source and the author instagulaged. P2P tech <3 I suppose, but not the Skype backdoored kind.

You can easily defeat such methods by using the same technique as Anonymous are currently using, which is to type up something in a word processor and then convert to pdf so Adobe Reader text to audio reads out the message. But then that calls into question the validity of using VOIP in the first place.

-1 for spreading fud. The whole "they got my voice/handwriting/fingerprints/dna/personality/location their leetz databasesz" is narcissistic delusionalism at its best. Obviously this is all possible, but 400,000,000 people cant be tracked, and your a nobody.
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: pine on March 28, 2013, 04:30 pm
I don't understand what the fascination with voice communication is. I absolutely hate voice communication, text is superior in every single way, from a security stand point, from a practicality stand point, etc. Yeah let's use a communication medium that is extraordinarily difficult to secure or anonymize, that requires our dedicated attention to a single conversation at a time, that we cannot replay in our heads verbatim easily, and cannot take time to think of our responses without a lot of awkward pausing. Fuck voice communication entirely. And yeah let's also throw video in so we can communicate our emotions with complex facial gestures IN ADDITION to prosody, instead of using our brains to determine emotional state from situational inference !!! :D :) ( really :/ ) !!

It's a personality type + a cultural thing. Geeks are far less emotionally driven than a majority of people. Or more accurately they are emotional about very different things, more intellectual things e.g. the open source religion. FWIW an unusually high number of Americans seem extremely emotional in comparison to other nationalities, they continually want to express, well, fuck all apparently, seems like they're either yelling or crying, constant drama. If this is actually not a personality type thing, and in fact a generational thing, then I have every sympathy for my grandparents who reckon we lost the war.

Text is the perfect medium for expressing ideas, which is why books were invented. I know that I make far more sense to other people when I write than when I talk. Guru says the same thing, says he spends significant time preparing a message so it is articulate and useful. When you look at some people on this forum, they practice "stream of consciousness dumping", which is to say that their unfiltered, disconnected thoughts fill the screen. You've all seen it before. The problem with this is that other people are forced to decipher wtf they are saying. This is the biggest reason to not do anonymous VOIP, the signal to noise ratio would become so awful it would be unreal, let alone the problem of anonymity. IMO even the text medium that Anonymous chooses to express their communications, IRC chat, is quite revealing in of itself because it is so entirely unsuited to long range planning or careful consideration of anything. You can't use the equivalent of fucking Twitter to run an operation, or rather you can, and then get squashed like a bug flying at a combined speed into a windshield at 120 mph. "But we evolve faster" they say. Yeah, but evolution involves natural selection, that's why you evolved a fucking brain in the first place, to model situations that could harm you before they physically occurred in the real world.

On the bright side, provided you can read as much as a book, any book at all, you can probably run circles around most people I met yesterday. It was like the Onion's parody of Ted Talks, only much worse. There was macbooks everywhere. Literally. Everywhere. They even had a docking station and played tweeny music from shitty little speakers. Left wingers appending the word 'social' to every noun, including the word excellence. Some people agreed that Cambodia was clearly an example of 'State Capitalism' at work. I nearly swallowed my monocle.

It would be cool to hear the different accents across the world of SR members, but that is the only advantage I can think of.
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: SelfSovereignty on March 28, 2013, 04:44 pm
I nearly swallowed my monocle.

I love it.  I also have no clue what you're talking about, but that's alright.  The shiny monocle has me smiling   :D
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: cowpie34 on March 28, 2013, 06:33 pm
I started this thread because I'm a psychologist and I want to do web therapy but for people from SR.  I was also a dealer at one time and I remember wanting to go to a psychologist but since nearly every part and every single detail of my entire world was related to drugs and drug using I couldn't even think of how to do it.   If I couldn't talk about my dealing I didn't want to see a psychologist, so I figure there are probably other people like that.  Plus I'm a psychologist that isn't going to tell you to quit every drug and become normal and I KNOW some people are looking for that.  If it wasn't anonymous though a lot things I might here from SR folk would be things I would be required by law to report, but if it's anonymous I can't!  :-)

Also I think there may be a thing to voice finger print but I think that it is only done over certain cell phone networks and for certain voice fingehave passed and then you're still not allowed to be friends; so figure that out.

"I don't understand what the fascination with voice communication is. I absolutely hate voice communication, text is superior in every single way, from a security stand point, from a practicality stand point, etc."r prints.. i.e. someone they've been chasing down passed 10 disposable phones.

About the anonymous sex chat I may be down - not that anyone was asking - but not once someone is a client I can't.  As the law stands now there's no sex with clients until two years
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: cowpie34 on March 28, 2013, 06:38 pm
Also yes there is people that do therapy through e-mail but trust me a lot of more meaning can be misunderstood in text then in voice no matter how good someone is putting together all the clues.  Even people who are really good psychologists make mistakes when they can hear people.  Speakerphone/computer therapy yes Web therapy yes but e-mail or text therapy Can be done and may be better than not but it's much better to be able to hear each other in real time.
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: wasta on April 10, 2013, 04:22 pm
A flash youtube through tor.

With the right addon it is possible to watch youtube trough tor.

It is shit to watch but the best way to watch youtube streaming, without downloading and still stay anonymous.

Sorry for the sound, but when you are watching the youtube through tor, the sound is excelent

Pictures only comes once or twice per second.

Other addons make it possible to watch youtube through your torbrowser , but will give a big red cross over the green onion button.

Anyone who can do better?

I don't chat, but this is the best streaming flash I can get trough tor, and still be anonymous.

Paste in clearnet and see how the onion is still green without a red cross.

http://hidemyass.com/files/EW4nu/
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: cowpie34 on April 10, 2013, 09:13 pm
Thank you!  But you think the chat would work - what addons specifically?  What do you mean about the onion --- ohh --- I just got it.  Thank you!
Title: Re: Tor video chat, audio chat, or text chat?
Post by: wasta on April 16, 2013, 05:52 pm
Hi Koeievlaai (cowpie) , chat is not possible to do anonymously.

Not using flash (shockwave) , flash will give your identity away.

It comes with the way flash works, from point to point.

Can not see how to do this just by using tor.

Better chance you have, when you make your own darknet.

If you have 3 people and your own key on freenet, you have your own little darknet.

http://www.softpedia.com/get/Internet/File-Sharing/FreeNet.shtml



Software for face recognition, voice recognition, and repeating faults in words you write will give away your anonymity.

The youtube I showed you has to be converted, because the way flash works (drom point to point) can not make it possible to watch youtube over the onion network.

But as you do see for yourself, it is possible to watch youtube and leave your anonymity in tact.

Leave your preferences as they are (default).

Try to watch youtube through TOR.
Or you will not see anything, or there will be a red cross over your onionbutton, or your preferences will be changed.
It's like torrents, they will give up your anonymity too.

Most common trick of L.E. is to let you click (while on TOR) on a pdf , so your anonymity is lost and L.E. knows who you are

Concluding, it is not possible to stay anonymous during chatting  ,  like Pine and other specialists already told.

A alternative is to use a alternative dns.
Or just use freenet.
With 3 friends you will have your own darknet.

There are a lot of extensions what you can not reach with your ordinary browser.
The extension .bit has more then 75000 domains.
The extension .free has nothing to do with the freenet.
It's like a .geek or .nul.
No ican, no censorship you can do what ever you want on your own internet.
Make your own dns-server and be the boss over your own internet