Silk Road forums
Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: The Scientist on February 17, 2013, 04:23 am
-
This is one of the most interesting and enigmatic categories of the LSD experience. Past-incarnation experiences consist of fragments of scenes, individual events, or entire, very clear and logical sequences occurring at another place and time in history. In this, they resemble elements of the collective and racial unconscious and some ancestral experiences. The events involved, however, are very dramatic and are often accompanied by an unusually intense emotional charge of a distinctly positive or negative quality.
In these experiences, you maintain your ego identity; although you experience yourself in another form, another place and time, and another context, you feel that you are basically the same individual entity as in your present existence. You also have a keen sense of being confronted with a MEMORY, of reliving something that you have already seen and experienced. This deja vu and deja vecu flavour is specific; you feel and "know" beyond any doubt that this experience is not related to or derived from anything in your present lifetime, and that it is a manifestation of one of your previous lives.
These experiences occasionally happen with relatively high doses of LSD (200ug and up). Belief in reincarnation and familiarity with this concept is not a necessary prerequisite for their occurence. They happen in LSD sessions with scientists who had previously considered the idea to be an absurd superstition. (From Grof, "LSD: Doorway to the Numinous")
Last week I had my first past-incarnation experience. I had previously considered the idea of reincarnation as an absurdity, but I cannot deny what I had experienced. Has anyone else had similar experiences?
What do you all think of the idea of reincarnation?
-
Reincarnation: The belief that we're hopelessly bound to this grain of sand.
-
Reincarnation: The belief that we're hopelessly bound to this grain of sand.
That grain of sand is an infinite and evolving universe containing all possibilities.
-
Theres so many possibilities just not worth experiencing. Reincarnation springs out of the belief that were all one energy force, like decayed organic matter giving rise to new plants, it is not our components that make us, so to say will "I" be reincarnated? No, because i will be no more in the sense of this moment. Will my lifeforce be reused? Perhaps, but what does that have to do with me.
-
Theres so many possibilities just not worth experiencing.
Everything is worth experiencing.
Reincarnation springs out of the belief that were all one energy force, like decayed organic matter giving rise to new plants, it is not our components that make us, so to say will "I" be reincarnated? No, because i will be no more in the sense of this moment. Will my lifeforce be reused? Perhaps, but what does that have to do with me.
It seems to me that it would not be your individual psyche that reincarnates, but the same Universal Consciousness incarnating itself in all creatures. It's that part of you which is aware, not the physical material of the body being 'reused'.
I don't think the idea of reincarnation is just a matter of conjecture; whether true or not, it probably originates in personal experiences of past-incarnation memories during non-ordinary states of consciousness - unlike the idea of Heaven, which is pure speculation and fantasy.
-
Theres so many possibilities just not worth experiencing.
Everything is worth experiencing.
Have fun with that german rape gang.
-
Have fun with that german rape gang.
We live in a universe that is essentially blissful. All suffering is illusory - and even if real, it is the inescapable result of karmic law. Although it goes contrary to our most elementary experience that suffering is real, there is really no injustice in suffering because there is no one to suffer. None of this is real. There is only God (universal consciousness), losing himself in creation to the point where he forgets who he is and imagines himself to be a separate creature who is capable of suffering.... But this seems to be drifting slightly off topic.
-
"somehow i think that reincarnation is just a poetic expression for what collective memory really is"
if the old religions and mystics are correct and we are, ultimately, One, then all lives are yours.
-
You just go back where you came from.
Where you have been for millions of years before you were born, there you will be again for many more more millions of years.
From dust you came, to dust you will return.
Reincarnation?
So you want to be a butterfly or something?
Our dear god made a small wasp who will lay eggs in you when you still are caterpillar and the caterpillar will be eaten alive from the inside out...
There goes your hope...
-
It seems to me that it would not be your individual psyche that reincarnates, but the same Universal Consciousness incarnating itself in all creatures. It's that part of you which is aware, not the physical material of the body being 'reused'.
I remember grappling with this issue as young as when I was six, that the only way life could be fair and make any sense is if we actually came back to live as every single past, present, and future person in addition to our present manifestation in the "now".
Anyway, I encourage you to read the book Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation written by a psychiatrist who tackles the issue from a scientific perspective. It methodically examines 20 cases of spontaneous recall of past lives in young children in India, where reincarnation is accepted, and exhaustively investigates and eliminates the possibility that the children could have known about details of that past life that in some cases were not even known to anyone else. His conclusion was startling for the world of western science so I'll repost the conclusions he came to from Wikipedia here:
The large number of witnesses and the lack of apparent motivation and opportunity, due to the vetting process, make the hypothesis of fraud extremely unlikely.
The large amount of information possessed by the child is not generally consistent with the hypothesis that the child obtained that information through investigated contact between the families.
Demonstration of similar personality characteristics and skills not learned in the current life and the lack of motivation for the long length of identification with a past life make the hypothesis of the child gaining his recollections and behavior through extra-sensory perception improbable.
When there is correlation between congenital deformities or birthmarks possessed by the child and the history of the previous individual, the hypothesis of random occurrence is improbable.
The last conclusion is particularly interesting because it implies that there can actually be a physical connection; something that links one to one's immediate past life by how that personality died, that can manifest in the form of a physical birthmark in the present life.
The author, Ian Stevenson, has compellingly rebutted all major criticism of his work that were inevitable to come his way.
Sadly, despite his book having been written almost 40 years ago you still see a strong reluctance by western scientists to involve themselves in this field of inquiry. Yes, the area of parapsychology is filled with kooks and cranks, no doubt about it. So much so, the stigma associated with choosing to research and publish anything in this area as a legitimate academic study worthy of pursuit could be a career ending move. I get all that. But at the same time a smart and ambitious academic could do well for him/herself by taking building on or refuting what Stevenson started. More studies need to be commissioned.
-
Reincarnation: The belief that we're hopelessly bound to this grain of sand.
IMHO, Reincarnation, any beliefs in spirituality, afterlife, Souls and Gods are merely a coping mechanism employed by certain people to cope with the fact that at the end of the day, noone on this fucking planet, or any other planet (thats if alien life exists) has no fucking idea WHY, if there even is a why, or WHAT is actually taking place with this whole existance thing.
For most people, the unknown scares the motherfucking shit out of them, they dont like to be forced to accept that what happens after death, is completely and utterly a mystery. It also fucks with people heads in a big way about the fact that this unknown also highlights that an "I" or a "Me" may not actually exist in the way they believe it does. All these things are HIGHLY unnerving to mainly the sub-concious mind of most people, but also the concious mind of more aware individuals.
So in order to prevent themselves from losing their shit and spending each and every day in a haywire state of not knowing what existance is, why its here, if for any reason, what happens when you die, what is good and bad, are there consequences, etc etc etc they are either indoctrinated through family/community/culture or seek out a BELIEF that they can relate to and "logically" believe in to put their mind at ease about the fact that NOONE has ANY idea WTF is happening in existence.
Yes, I went on a tangent, but its all related. Reincarnation is as Provable as purple unicorns that operate on another level of vibrational reality and are running the show. Now becuase of that, both ARE JUST BELIEFS. Believing in reincarnation is a coping mechanism for people that dont like the POSSIBILITY that they are not an invdiviual, there is no afterlife, and when you die your "self" as you know it is gone forever (not saying I believe that, but its one of the unprovable theories :P).
All im trying to say is, (and im not an athiest/science whore, at ALL, I BELIEVE there are spiritual aspects to life, i just accept we ahve no idea about the how, what or why of it) that unless you can prove something through some kinda of experiment or scientfic/measuring process, all beliefs including new age, catholacism, judaism, satanism, athiesm, budhism, hinduism etc etc and everything they claim as fact, are all on the same page.
They are all just beliefs as provable and improvable as each other, in order for people to cope with the fact that when it comes to one of the most important aspects of peoples lives, who they are, who they are to the people around them, their feeling of a SELF, noone in existence can give them the answer, it is a complete unknown. Some people then cling to the classic "when you die you go to a place and spend eternity in a utopia with your creator, again, retaining the idea we have of a self. Others, and I find this especially common among people who have expanded their minds past being able to believe in some kinda of utopian afterlife where u spend eternity, grab onto the idea of reincarnation, again, its a way of reassuring yourSELF that its all ok, when you die "YOU"/"I" will still be "alive"
To end my rediculous aver analised rant. Reincarnation is a belief, like anything else, jsut as much as believing jesus died for your sins, and it is used to cope witht he fact we have no idea wtf happens to us when we die.
Id also like to add, I am not criticising any religeons or spiritual ideas/systems. I believe that becuase religeous/spiritual beliefs help people cope with the unknown result of the physical death of the self image, that If religeon and spirituality are able to add to an individuals life, make them a better person for themselves and those around them, then they should believe in that belief and follow that system. If it works for you, do it, becuase they are ALL just beliefs, dont get caught up thinking that christianity is somehow some form of a lower spiritual belief system. Christianity's theories are as provable as Scientologies which is as provable as David Ickes theories etc etc etc, you see where im going with this.
Anyway
S - out.
-
jpinkman,
That's very interesting, thank you. I may even order that book if I can find it.
IMHO, Reincarnation, any beliefs in spirituality, afterlife, Souls and Gods are merely a coping mechanism employed by certain people to cope with the fact that at the end of the day, noone on this fucking planet, or any other planet (thats if alien life exists) has no fucking idea WHY, if there even is a why, or WHAT is actually taking place with this whole existance thing.
I don't believe that is true at all. It was my EXPERIENCES that forced me to re-evaluate my atheistic and materialist worldview, not my desires or my prior beliefs. When I first started having these experiences, I did not want them to be true. They were initially bad experiences. For me atheism and materialism were comforting delusions, and I suspect that is the case for many other people.
I may respond to the rest of your post later.
-
I find the topic of reincarnation very interesting although I really don't know if is a real phenomena or not. Odds are that we have one life and then that is it but is a bit depressing to think this is the case but is the most likely scenario.
Religion I feel exists bec it helps people cope with how hard life is and bc people don't handle well the uncertainty of death.
I like LSD but never have personally had any past life experiences while on it but sounds like fun.
-
jpinkman,
That's very interesting, thank you. I may even order that book if I can find it.
IMHO, Reincarnation, any beliefs in spirituality, afterlife, Souls and Gods are merely a coping mechanism employed by certain people to cope with the fact that at the end of the day, noone on this fucking planet, or any other planet (thats if alien life exists) has no fucking idea WHY, if there even is a why, or WHAT is actually taking place with this whole existance thing.
I don't believe that is true at all. It was my EXPERIENCES that forced me to re-evaluate my atheistic and materialist worldview, not my desires or my prior beliefs. When I first started having these experiences, I did not want them to be true. They were initially bad experiences. For me atheism and materialism were comforting delusions, and I suspect that is the case for many other people.
I may respond to the rest of your post later.
Agree with everything you have said. Athiesm and Materialism is as you siad, are just as much coping mechanisms/comforting delusions as religeon, spirituality, cherry picking beliefs from different religeons and creating your own philosophies on life. Its a belief that gives people an answer, any answer, to a question there really isnt an answer for. Some people are content with the answer the belief system of Athiesm gives, some need something more comforting like an afterlife in a utopian heaven, some people laugh at organised religeons and their eternal afterlives saying that its a fairytale belief, so they find out about reincarnation and somehow it seems more logical so they cling onto that.
At the end of the day, what youve experienced imho is AWESOME. From what I can tell, these LSD experiences have taken you out of a purely comforting belief system in Athiesm, and gave you the ability to analise your existence from an ego-less, unconditioned perspective and start to see that your perspective through the eyes of an athiest Is just that, just another belief like religeon that comforts people. Think of your dispositions/beliefs/perspectives and opinions on existance as a structure, a wall if you will, a wall that encircles the vulnerable part of your mind/self. Now IMHO, when you start altering your state of conciousness, especaiily thought the psychadelic realm of drugs like LSD, Weed, shrooms, DMT, MDMA etc etc etc etc they start to slowly break this wall down, leaving the vulnerable "You" (if this exists) open to perceiving previously blocked out perspectives/opinions in existance. Allowing for you to psychologically "evolve" your awareness of existance.
Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is, that all this talk on spirituality and philosophy, everything ive said, you said, in fact anything any human has ever said on the subject of spirituality and an afterlife, is all just opinion and pure speculation. For that reason, I choose to takwe the position of LOVING talking about philosophy, reading about it, looking into different spiritual paths etc. But always remembering that every one of these opinions on spirituality cannot and probably will never be able to be measured and proven/disproven, so I will never hold a belief system, although, that in itself IS my belief system, lolz.
Life is the trippiest fucken trip of all, lol.
S
-
jpinkman,
That's very interesting, thank you. I may even order that book if I can find it.
IMHO, Reincarnation, any beliefs in spirituality, afterlife, Souls and Gods are merely a coping mechanism employed by certain people to cope with the fact that at the end of the day, noone on this fucking planet, or any other planet (thats if alien life exists) has no fucking idea WHY, if there even is a why, or WHAT is actually taking place with this whole existance thing.
I don't believe that is true at all. It was my EXPERIENCES that forced me to re-evaluate my atheistic and materialist worldview, not my desires or my prior beliefs. When I first started having these experiences, I did not want them to be true. They were initially bad experiences. For me atheism and materialism were comforting delusions, and I suspect that is the case for many other people.
I may respond to the rest of your post later.
Agree with everything you have said. Athiesm and Materialism is as you siad, are just as much coping mechanisms/comforting delusions as religeon, spirituality, cherry picking beliefs from different religeons and creating your own philosophies on life. Its a belief that gives people an answer, any answer, to a question there really isnt an answer for. Some people are content with the answer the belief system of Athiesm gives, some need something more comforting like an afterlife in a utopian heaven, some people laugh at organised religeons and their eternal afterlives saying that its a fairytale belief, so they find out about reincarnation and somehow it seems more logical so they cling onto that.
At the end of the day, what youve experienced imho is AWESOME. From what I can tell, these LSD experiences have taken you out of a purely comforting belief system in Athiesm, and gave you the ability to analise your existence from an ego-less, unconditioned perspective and start to see that your perspective through the eyes of an athiest Is just that, just another belief like religeon that comforts people. Think of your dispositions/beliefs/perspectives and opinions on existance as a structure, a wall if you will, a wall that encircles the vulnerable part of your mind/self. Now IMHO, when you start altering your state of conciousness, especaiily thought the psychadelic realm of drugs like LSD, Weed, shrooms, DMT, MDMA etc etc etc etc they start to slowly break this wall down, leaving the vulnerable "You" (if this exists) open to perceiving previously blocked out perspectives/opinions in existance. Allowing for you to psychologically "evolve" your awareness of existance.
Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is, that all this talk on spirituality and philosophy, everything ive said, you said, in fact anything any human has ever said on the subject of spirituality and an afterlife, is all just opinion and pure speculation. For that reason, I choose to takwe the position of LOVING talking about philosophy, reading about it, looking into different spiritual paths etc. But always remembering that every one of these opinions on spirituality cannot and probably will never be able to be measured and proven/disproven, so I will never hold a belief system, although, that in itself IS my belief system, lolz.
Life is the trippiest fucken trip of all, lol.
S
Atheism is definitely not a coping mechanism, there is nothing easy about been an atheist. Its much easier to go through life believing than not believing...this is why 95% of the population belongs to one religion or another and its definitely a coping mechanism is just that is a socially acceptable coping mechanism and also used to control the masses so it actually serves two functions and why is such a big success.
On one hand it offers an ideal, a fantasy that calms your fears and gives you hope that helps you to keep on, cope with life and stay positive.
On the other hand it controls human behavior with fear and is great at that.
Psychologists encourage their patients often to join a church bc studies show that is beneficial in helping individuals cope with life part of this is simply the social support that comes from it, the feeling of belongingness that comes from collectivism and feeling accepted by a group and part of it is that faith keeps idealism alive which is a type of addiction and also keeps hope alive by making people feel everything has a purpose and that there will always be justice in the end.
Dr. Stephen Joseph, from the University of Warwick, said: "Religious people seem to have a greater purpose in life, which is why they are happier. Looking at the research evidence, it seems that those who celebrate the Christian meaning of Christmas are on the whole likely to be happier.
I being an atheist myself with a religious background and knowing many other people who are atheist can tell you without a doubt that this suggestion a number of you are making saying that atheism is a coping mechanism just like religion is incorrect.
I dont like AT ALL the fact that odds are that once you die that is all there is to it but I value truth and freedom above everything and you cant be free if you are living a lie.
-
I find the topic of reincarnation very interesting although I really don't know if is a real phenomena or not. Odds are that we have one life and then that is it but is a bit depressing to think this is the case but is the most likely scenario.
Religion I feel exists bec it helps people cope with how hard life is and bc people don't handle well the uncertainty of death.
I like LSD but never have personally had any past life experiences while on it but sounds like fun.
what makes you think that is the most likely scenario? life is just as uncertain as death! the nature of all things is cyclical... even the universe experiences life, death and rebirth.
-
I believe the whole life is a fractal "The thing within itself" so everything (including us) is running through the same function, day/night or spring/autumn, everything will face a rebirth.
-
Well if you research history then it is evident that there is an evolution going on here. It's an energy type of evolution. The physical is just a side effect. We are on some kind of journey toward some kind of desired effects from who knows who or what. Could just be a science project for all I know but it's definitely a chemical reaction with hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon
-
Atheism is definitely not a coping mechanism, there is nothing easy about been an atheist. Its much easier to go through life believing than not believing...this is why 95% of the population belongs to one religion or another and its definitely a coping mechanism is just that is a socially acceptable coping mechanism and also used to control the masses so it actually serves two functions and why is such a big success.
I being an atheist myself with a religious background and knowing many other people who are atheist can tell you without a doubt that this suggestion a number of you are making saying that atheism is a coping mechanism just like religion is incorrect.
I dont like AT ALL the fact that odds are that once you die that is all there is to it but I value truth and freedom above everything and you cant be free if you are living a lie.
Here's the problem with what you just said. You can't prove that when you die that's all there is to it anymore than a religious person could prove the existence of the afterlife.
Therefore what you believe happens at death is just as much a matter of blind faith. If you value truth you would have to admit that.
Even Richard Dawkins doesn't consider himself an absolute atheist for this reason. He admits that there's no way he can know with absolute certainty that there is no life after death.
-
Atheism is definitely not a coping mechanism, there is nothing easy about been an atheist. Its much easier to go through life believing than not believing...this is why 95% of the population belongs to one religion or another and its definitely a coping mechanism is just that is a socially acceptable coping mechanism and also used to control the masses so it actually serves two functions and why is such a big success.
I being an atheist myself with a religious background and knowing many other people who are atheist can tell you without a doubt that this suggestion a number of you are making saying that atheism is a coping mechanism just like religion is incorrect.
I dont like AT ALL the fact that odds are that once you die that is all there is to it but I value truth and freedom above everything and you cant be free if you are living a lie.
Here's the problem with what you just said. You can't prove that when you die that's all there is to it anymore than a religious person could prove the existence of the afterlife.
Therefore what you believe happens at death is just as much a matter of blind faith. If you value truth you would have to admit that.
Even Richard Dawkins doesn't consider himself an absolute atheist for this reason. He admits that there's no way he can know with absolute certainty that there is no life after death.
I go back and forth from been agnostic to atheist and love the idea of reincarnation, I completely agree with you that I dont know for sure either way but I do know this if there is a god is nothing like what any religion makes him up to be and I hope there is more to life after we die. I am extremely idealistic......someone who loves the idea of soulmates, twinflames etc...but all I know for certain is that we die and our bodies then decompose....everything else is speculation, theory and idealism.
But I have to say when I look at all the world and I see that everyone suffers and struggles and happy moments are occasional and is mostly neutral times with some good times here and there and a lot of stress and pain in between those good times....I have to say to me that is evidence there is no god but that idea is too painful for the average person to really consider and take in, too much for the average person to handle including myself.........we all fear death and the unknown but I try to be honest with myself and if god exists no religion portrays god correctly as religions are in essence created by humans and our image of God is purely us projecting and totally biased.
-
everything else is speculation, theory and idealism.
That which is within one's direct experience is not a matter of speculation, theory, and idealism. One can become directly aware of God.
There are actually many good reasons to believe in the existence of God.
1.) Through meditation, mystical illumination, and the use of psychedelic drugs, one can experience God. This experience is orderly, lawful, and publicly verifiable; it is the same across all religions, cultures and eras, and anyone can become a witness to it, if he takes the appropriate steps. Now, orderliness, lawfulness, and public verifiability are the criteria by which we determine sensory phenomena to be real and objective. Since the experience of God satisfies the same criteria by which we judge sensory phenomena to be real and objective, it is rational for someone who has had such an experience to believe in the existence of God. For any argument that you can come up with to "refute" such an experience, I can construct a parallel argument to "refute" the existence of the external world.
Therefore, unless you are equally sceptical of the existence of a world outside of your own mind, it is rational for someone who has had a mystical experience to believe in God.
2.) Lane's cosmological argument. Basically: Everything that begins to existence has a cause. The universe began to exist. Therefore, the universe had a cause. Once you unpack what it means to be the cause of the universe, you arrive at the conception of a spaceless, timeless, immaterial, and conscious creator of the universe, which is what most people mean by God.
3.) Godel's ontological proof of the existence of God.
4.) According to some interpretations of quantum physics, there has to be a cosmic consciousness or all-seeing mind that pervades the universe determining which state we are in. This interpretation is becoming increasingly held by physicists who are realising the implications of quantum mechanics.
But I have to say when I look at all the world and I see that everyone suffers and struggles and happy moments are occasional and is mostly neutral times with some good times here and there and a lot of stress and pain in between those good times....I have to say to me that is evidence there is no god but that idea is too painful for the average person to really consider and take in, too much for the average person to handle including myself.........we all fear death and the unknown but I try to be honest with myself and if god exists no religion portrays god correctly as religions are in essence created by humans and our image of God is purely us projecting and totally biased.
What does human suffering have to do with the existence of God? God has nothing to do with human morality. God is beyond good and evil.
if there is a god is nothing like what any religion makes him up to be
The existence of God is largely a debate between religious dogmatists and pedantic atheists, neither side of which understands religion. The religious dogmatist asserts the existence of a mythic-magical God, while the pedantic atheist points out that there is no 'evidence' for such a being, while both sides ignore higher levels of interpretations of God. When you say that God is nothing like what any religion makes him out to be, you no doubt are referring only to a lower-level interpretation of religion. God cannot cannot be described, he is transcendent to thought, and of course so any description of him will be nothing like what he actually is. Religion is just a feeble attempt to describe, with myth and symbol, an experience that cannot be communicated.
-
The scientist... talking about the existence of god.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Retarded.
-
The scientist... talking about the existence of god.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Retarded.
How so?
-
Denial of God is wishful thinking rooted in the fear of not being in control. To know God is to know that you are not in control; that all your thoughts and actions are arising automatically; that everything is pre-decided; in short, that you do not have freedom of the will. You can experience this.
Atheism is ultimately rooted in the egotistic fear of annihilation, for to know God is to know that you do not exist.
Some people choose not to call it God. Some prefer to call it energy, consciousness, Brahman, Void, Emptiness, etc. It doesn't matter what we call it; it is real.
Why do I believe that I am God? Because I am a scientist. Psychedelic drugs are empirical metaphysics. I can see God just as I see the monitor I am looking at as I type this message; only I see God even more clearly and intensely than I see the monitor. I cannot rationally deny it. Once it is experienced, it has to be accepted, even if you don't like it.
-
Ahahah okay, so... you're not a scientist at all. And by that I mean, you have no scientific qualifications what so ever that would lend to such an opinion. Ergo, if you did, you wouldn't think such stupidity. Seriously, look-up the number of scientists that believe in god, it's hilarious if nothing else than completely contradictory in nature. Your response sounds like the response of somebody tripping serious amounts of balls, and as a guy that likes to trip balls I find it hilarious from one perspective. But am I fuck going to engange with you in some bullshit back and forth debate about the religion of god. BORING. Instead I'd defer your mid to ponder this: I'm an atheist, AND I believe in god. (I don't btw, but lets add fuel to the fire...)
Logic dictates
-
Ahahah okay, so... you're not a scientist at all. And by that I mean, you have no scientific qualifications what so ever that would lend to such an opinion. Ergo, if you did, you wouldn't think such stupidity. Seriously, look-up the number of scientists that believe in god, it's hilarious if nothing else than completely contradictory in nature. Your response sounds like the response of somebody tripping serious amounts of balls, and as a guy that likes to trip balls I find it hilarious from one perspective. But am I fuck going to engange with you in some bullshit back and forth debate about the religion of god. BORING. Instead I'd defer your mid to ponder this: I'm an atheist, AND I believe in god. (I don't btw, but lets add fuel to the fire...)
Logic dictates
I don’t think that ‘scientists’, by and large, deny the existence of a god or prime cause; it’s just that all religions are based on syllogistic logic supported by anecdotal evidence. For instance, the only "evidence" for the truth of Christianity comes after you die, a little late in the game.
Science deals with the "how" based on empirical facts. Religion asks the "why" and deals with personal "truths". A little subjective there, yes. But then again, philosophy also asks the "why", and its conclusions are arrived at through inductive and deductive reasoning.
Overall I don't think there's any inherent contradiction between science and deism. And I'm saying this as a strong agnostic grounded in scientific and empirical realism.
-
Ahahah okay, so... you're not a scientist at all. And by that I mean, you have no scientific qualifications what so ever that would lend to such an opinion.
It's all nice to be scornful and all that, but that is hardly argumentation. I happen to be trained in biochemistry and nuclear physics, and have a pretty good idea as to how one might put together a nuclear power plant, at least how such a task might be organised, yet I don't share your scorn for those who believe in God. I was an atheist myself for the first 30 years of my life, until I had a near-death experience in which my finite consciousness became united with the universal consciousness of the universe, and I experienced the evolutionary unfolding of the cosmos from the Big Bang to roughly the birth of Christ, and re-relived all the memories of my past existences simultaneously. But I don't base my argument on my own experiences; there are sound philosophical and scientific reasons for someone to believe in God, which only reinforce my experiences. I just cannot deny what I have experienced.
Real scientists don't worship "science" as you seem to; they acknowledge the limited role of mundane science in the explication of reality. They think about metaphysical naturalism, reductionism and the paltry quantitative realities offered by the scientific method. As physicist Sir Arthur Eddington put it,
"The symbolic nature of physics is generally recognized, and the scheme of physics is now formulated in such a way as to make it almost self-evident that it is a partial aspect of something wider....In the world of physics we watch a shadowgraph performance of familiar life. The shadow of my elbow rests on the shadow table as the shadow ink flows over the shadow paper.... The frank realization that physical science is concerned with a world of shadows is one of the most significant recent advances...."
We have learnt that the exploration of the external world by the methods of physical science leads not to a concrete reality but to a SHADOW WORLD OF SYMBOLS, beneath which those methods are unadapted for penetrating.
Real scientists understand the limitations of scientists. They don't have a naive faith in "science" as the answer to all of the questions of the universe. Only science-worshippers - i.e. non-scientists - think like you do. What you're talking about is scientism, not science. Real science is compatible with belief in God; it is also compatible with atheism.
Ergo, if you did, you wouldn't think such stupidity.
There's nothing stupid about belief in God because there are sound philosophical and scientific reasons to believe in God, as well as the evidence of direct experience.
Seriously, look-up the number of scientists that believe in god,
Lots of top scientists believe in God.
According to a recent poll, "just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power." Belief in God also varies by discipline; physicists are more likely to believe that there is a Mind behind reality than biologists. Mathematicians (though not empirical scientists) are most likely of all to believe in God.
Among Nobel prize winning scientists, the number who recognise the existence of God in the universe is remarkably high. And of course, the overwhelming majority of the greatest scientists in history were theists, deists and pantheists. The same is true of philosophers and mathematicians.
Interestingly, atheists are over-represented at the low end of the intelligence spectrum than they are on the high end. "8.4 percent of atheists have IQs below 63 (nearly as many as have high IQs) whereas only 1.9 percent of theists do."
Although atheists have a slightly higher AVERAGE IQ than religious people, PROFOUNDLY gifted people (with an IQ of 150+) are more likely to be theists/deists/pantheists than atheists.
Your response sounds like the response of somebody tripping serious amounts of balls, and as a guy that likes to trip balls I find it hilarious from one perspective.
None of my arguments are based on psychedelic experiences.
Logic dictates
Logic doesnt' seem to be your strong point, nor is there any reason to suppose that human logic is in the final nature of reality. The new picture of reality that is unfolding to us in physics suggests that the universe is not rational, but held together by the cement of paradox and contradiction. Logic is simply the rules of multiplicity; reality itself is an undifferentiated unity that cannot be reduced to human logic.
-
Ahahah okay, so... you're not a scientist at all. And by that I mean, you have no scientific qualifications what so ever that would lend to such an opinion.
It's all nice to be scornful and all that, but that is hardly argumentation. I happen to be trained in biochemistry and nuclear physics, and have a pretty good idea as to how one might put together a nuclear power plant, at least how such a task might be organised, yet I don't share your scorn for those who believe in God. I was an atheist myself for the first 30 years of my life, until I had a near-death experience in which my finite consciousness became united with the universal consciousness of the universe, and I experienced the evolutionary unfolding of the cosmos from the Big Bang to roughly the birth of Christ, and re-relived all the memories of my past existences simultaneously. But I don't base my argument on my own experiences; there are sound philosophical and scientific reasons for someone to believe in God, which only reinforce my experiences. I just cannot deny what I have experienced.
Real scientists don't worship "science" as you seem to; they acknowledge the limited role of mundane science in the explication of reality. They think about metaphysical naturalism, reductionism and the paltry quantitative realities offered by the scientific method. As physicist Sir Arthur Eddington put it,
"The symbolic nature of physics is generally recognized, and the scheme of physics is now formulated in such a way as to make it almost self-evident that it is a partial aspect of something wider....In the world of physics we watch a shadowgraph performance of familiar life. The shadow of my elbow rests on the shadow table as the shadow ink flows over the shadow paper.... The frank realization that physical science is concerned with a world of shadows is one of the most significant recent advances...."
We have learnt that the exploration of the external world by the methods of physical science leads not to a concrete reality but to a SHADOW WORLD OF SYMBOLS, beneath which those methods are unadapted for penetrating.
Real scientists understand the limitations of scientists. They don't have a naive faith in "science" as the answer to all of the questions of the universe. Only science-worshippers - i.e. non-scientists - think like you do. What you're talking about is scientism, not science. Real science is compatible with belief in God; it is also compatible with atheism.
Ergo, if you did, you wouldn't think such stupidity.
There's nothing stupid about belief in God because there are sound philosophical and scientific reasons to believe in God, as well as the evidence of direct experience.
Seriously, look-up the number of scientists that believe in god,
Lots of top scientists believe in God.
According to a recent poll, "just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power." Belief in God also varies by discipline; physicists are more likely to believe that there is a Mind behind reality than biologists. Mathematicians (though not empirical scientists) are most likely of all to believe in God.
Among Nobel prize winning scientists, the number who recognise the existence of God in the universe is remarkably high. And of course, the overwhelming majority of the greatest scientists in history were theists, deists and pantheists. The same is true of philosophers and mathematicians.
Interestingly, atheists are over-represented at the low end of the intelligence spectrum than they are on the high end. "8.4 percent of atheists have IQs below 63 (nearly as many as have high IQs) whereas only 1.9 percent of theists do."
Although atheists have a slightly higher AVERAGE IQ than religious people, PROFOUNDLY gifted people (with an IQ of 150+) are more likely to be theists/deists/pantheists than atheists.
Your response sounds like the response of somebody tripping serious amounts of balls, and as a guy that likes to trip balls I find it hilarious from one perspective.
None of my arguments are based on psychedelic experiences.
Logic dictates
Logic doesnt' seem to be your strong point, nor is there any reason to suppose that human logic is in the final nature of reality. The new picture of reality that is unfolding to us in physics suggests that the universe is not rational, but held together by the cement of paradox and contradiction. Logic is simply the rules of multiplicity; reality itself is an undifferentiated unity that cannot be reduced to human logic.
Haha dude I'm sure in whatever world you live in, and in whatever scientific realm you live in this all makes sense. But, for those of us without a scientific link to your brain stem, do us a favour and choke? I didn't even readyour reply. Wanna know why? This could be a veryyyy long answer, but basically; you're not qualified. That is, you're not qualified in the sense you assert you are, with the scientist gimmick and all. Scientists don't believe in god. That's an awkward fact.
-
Scientists don't believe in god. That's an awkward fact.
Whaat? Einstein was a deist. Believing in god doesn't mean believing in a god pushed by any organized religion.
-
I didn't even readyour reply.
So you're trolling. You're not interested in coming to an understanding to the issues under discussion. I am discussing this with you in order to come to a better understanding of your position, not in the spirit of one-upmanship. You're not adding anything of value to the discussion. If you wish to show that my opinions are wrong, you will have to provide an argument to this effect.
Scientists don't believe in god.
Again, lots of top scientists believe in God.
According to a recent poll, "just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power." Belief in God also varies by discipline; physicists are more likely to believe that there is a Mind behind reality than biologists. Mathematicians (though not empirical scientists) are most likely of all to believe in God.
Among Nobel prize winning scientists, the number who recognise the existence of God in the universe is remarkably high. And of course, the overwhelming majority of the greatest scientists in history were theists, deists and pantheists.
That is, you're not qualified in the sense you assert you are, with the scientist gimmick and all.
I am trained as a physicist. You are free to believe me or disbelieve me. In any case, it isn't relevant. An argument stands or falls on its own merits irrespective of the qualifications of the person who makes the argument. I may be wrong in my opinions, but these kinds of ad hominem attacks add nothing of value to the discussion.
-
Whaat? Einstein was a deist. Believing in god doesn't mean believing in a god pushed by any organized religion.
“Both religion and science need for their activities the belief in God, and moreover God stands for the former in the beginning, and for the latter at the end of the whole thinking. For the former, God represents the basis, for the latter – the crown of any reasoning concerning the world-view.” - Max Planck
But I guess Max Planck wasn't a real scientist.
-
Whaat? Einstein was a deist. Believing in god doesn't mean believing in a god pushed by any organized religion.
“Both religion and science need for their activities the belief in God, and moreover God stands for the former in the beginning, and for the latter at the end of the whole thinking. For the former, God represents the basis, for the latter – the crown of any reasoning concerning the world-view.” - Max Planck
But I guess Max Planck wasn't a real scientist.
I don't think it was but in case this was addressed to me, for the record I wasn't at all disagreeing with you. I was just pointing out the fallacy in rambaski's claim that scientists don't believe in God. :) That's a pretty broad claim to be generalizing.
-
I find the topic of reincarnation very interesting although I really don't know if is a real phenomena or not. Odds are that we have one life and then that is it but is a bit depressing to think this is the case but is the most likely scenario.
Religion I feel exists bec it helps people cope with how hard life is and bc people don't handle well the uncertainty of death.
I like LSD but never have personally had any past life experiences while on it but sounds like fun.
what makes you think that is the most likely scenario? life is just as uncertain as death! the nature of all things is cyclical... even the universe experiences life, death and rebirth.
What you said is part of why I am attracted to reincarnation but there are other reasons too. To be frank I go back and forth between believing in reincarnation and been agnostic or atheist and I am happiest when I belief in reincarnation but speaking of which there are TWO schools of reincarnation. One school thinks that we don't retain our individuality when we reincarnate and the more modern school of reincarnation beliefs we do (to put it simply). Which school do you follow and do you have any material that proofs reincarnation that you can share with me as I would love to look at it. I know I have found some material in the past but is always connected to hypnotism which is fine but would prefer more proof if available than that.
-
What essentially separates the state of death from that of pre-life? As far as I can tell, nothing does, short of what lies in between, but both of those states have one thing in common: Nothing. The void, if you will, a state of non-existence. Due to this, we can safely assume that out of non-existence comes existence. Reincarnation, if you will, but to what effect? A new dimension altogether full of nothing but joy and peace would be heaven - the opposite would be hell. Back into the universe as it is would be the most common form reincarnation-based beliefs. Athiesm seems to believe (Yes, believe) in an eternal, non-changing infinite void that is the only possible outcome of life in an ever-changing universe. In the words of Alan Watts "Like being locked in a small, dark box for all of eternity."
Frank Wilczek (Physicist) wrote that "Nothing is unstable." This was in reference to the creation of the universe - the cause of the "Big Bang," if you will. The state of nothingness, the void itself is unstable and thus the universe created itself because a lack of anything NEEDS something.
Humans are the only living beings capable of being self aware, and to know and fear death not simply out of a sense of self-preservation of our bodies but of our very existence and connection to this universe - to fear and wonder about what comes next. What a sick joke it would be, that for all our advanced evolution that allows us as a species to gaze up at the stars and know them each by name and molecular composition, that we would be ultimately doomed to the void.
Yet, we Humans - and as far as we know ONLY humans - can see and fathom the face of God. We've seen the great cosmic web, and it looks strikingly similar to our own neural network. The cosmos, the stars, everything large and small in the entirety of our Universe can be understood on some level. In the same amount of time it took an ant to evolve to where it is now, here we sit unmatched as a species on Earth or anywhere else. We can see the ebb and flow of everything. The breath of the earth is known to us as well as our own. To say that our existence is only ebb, and no flow, would undermine the very basis for the continued survival of our Universe.
I don't know exactly what happens next - but I'm certain it's not nothing. For Nothing is a demonstrably unstable state of being. Anything else is in some form or another reincarnation. Over what time period, I can't say, nor can the logistics of which be pinned down with any sort of precision. The only thing I can say for certain is "I don't know... but I'm sure it's not that."
-
What essentially separates the state of death from that of pre-life? As far as I can tell, nothing does, short of what lies in between, but both of those states have one thing in common: Nothing. The void, if you will, a state of non-existence. Due to this, we can safely assume that out of non-existence comes existence. Reincarnation, if you will, but to what effect? A new dimension altogether full of nothing but joy and peace would be heaven - the opposite would be hell. Back into the universe as it is would be the most common form reincarnation-based beliefs. Athiesm seems to believe (Yes, believe) in an eternal, non-changing infinite void that is the only possible outcome of life in an ever-changing universe. In the words of Alan Watts "Like being locked in a small, dark box for all of eternity."
Frank Wilczek (Physicist) wrote that "Nothing is unstable." This was in reference to the creation of the universe - the cause of the "Big Bang," if you will. The state of nothingness, the void itself is unstable and thus the universe created itself because a lack of anything NEEDS something.
Humans are the only living beings capable of being self aware, and to know and fear death not simply out of a sense of self-preservation of our bodies but of our very existence and connection to this universe - to fear and wonder about what comes next. What a sick joke it would be, that for all our advanced evolution that allows us as a species to gaze up at the stars and know them each by name and molecular composition, that we would be ultimately doomed to the void.
Yet, we Humans - and as far as we know ONLY humans - can see and fathom the face of God. We've seen the great cosmic web, and it looks strikingly similar to our own neural network. The cosmos, the stars, everything large and small in the entirety of our Universe can be understood on some level. In the same amount of time it took an ant to evolve to where it is now, here we sit unmatched as a species on Earth or anywhere else. We can see the ebb and flow of everything. The breath of the earth is known to us as well as our own. To say that our existence is only ebb, and no flow, would undermine the very basis for the continued survival of our Universe.
I don't know exactly what happens next - but I'm certain it's not nothing. For Nothing is a demonstrably unstable state of being. Anything else is in some form or another reincarnation. Over what time period, I can't say, nor can the logistics of which be pinned down with any sort of precision. The only thing I can say for certain is "I don't know... but I'm sure it's not that."
How the FUCK did you manage to write 60 posts in one day? Are you Lim's brother? ??? How the fuck.
-
What essentially separates the state of death from that of pre-life? As far as I can tell, nothing does, short of what lies in between, but both of those states have one thing in common: Nothing. The void, if you will, a state of non-existence. Due to this, we can safely assume that out of non-existence comes existence. Reincarnation, if you will, but to what effect? A new dimension altogether full of nothing but joy and peace would be heaven - the opposite would be hell. Back into the universe as it is would be the most common form reincarnation-based beliefs. Athiesm seems to believe (Yes, believe) in an eternal, non-changing infinite void that is the only possible outcome of life in an ever-changing universe. In the words of Alan Watts "Like being locked in a small, dark box for all of eternity."
Frank Wilczek (Physicist) wrote that "Nothing is unstable." This was in reference to the creation of the universe - the cause of the "Big Bang," if you will. The state of nothingness, the void itself is unstable and thus the universe created itself because a lack of anything NEEDS something.
Humans are the only living beings capable of being self aware, and to know and fear death not simply out of a sense of self-preservation of our bodies but of our very existence and connection to this universe - to fear and wonder about what comes next. What a sick joke it would be, that for all our advanced evolution that allows us as a species to gaze up at the stars and know them each by name and molecular composition, that we would be ultimately doomed to the void.
Yet, we Humans - and as far as we know ONLY humans - can see and fathom the face of God. We've seen the great cosmic web, and it looks strikingly similar to our own neural network. The cosmos, the stars, everything large and small in the entirety of our Universe can be understood on some level. In the same amount of time it took an ant to evolve to where it is now, here we sit unmatched as a species on Earth or anywhere else. We can see the ebb and flow of everything. The breath of the earth is known to us as well as our own. To say that our existence is only ebb, and no flow, would undermine the very basis for the continued survival of our Universe.
I don't know exactly what happens next - but I'm certain it's not nothing. For Nothing is a demonstrably unstable state of being. Anything else is in some form or another reincarnation. Over what time period, I can't say, nor can the logistics of which be pinned down with any sort of precision. The only thing I can say for certain is "I don't know... but I'm sure it's not that."
How the FUCK did you manage to write 60 posts in one day? Are you Lim's brother? ??? How the fuck.
Spam threads son! To 50 at least, the others have been me just derping about this wonderful place, throwing various pennies in the well.
-
When I seen that special where the Dali Lama cried when he seen the little american boy that was claiming to be a reincarnated Tibetan monk, I was sold.
-
A child is the incarnation of his father and mother and all their ancestors. I find reincarnation to be very misinterpreted. Is not that you live multiple times, is that you carry the lives of your ancestors. Their wisdom, learning and experiences have been passed to you and also some bad things. For me is not just DNA and physical data that pass through, but much more.
-
A child is the incarnation of his father and mother and all their ancestors. I find reincarnation to be very misinterpreted. Is not that you live multiple times, is that you carry the lives of your ancestors. Their wisdom, learning and experiences have been passed to you and also some bad things. For me is not just DNA and physical data that pass through, but much more.
what you are talking about is the genetic inheritance of acquired experiences which i think is different from reincarnation, is it not? one may become aware of past incarnation memories of people or animals that one is not genetically descended from. but ultimately i think there is only one mind or soul, and every creature is an incarnation of one universal consciousness ('God').... it is not the finite ego or individual soul travelling from creature to creature.
-
A child is the incarnation of his father and mother and all their ancestors. I find reincarnation to be very misinterpreted. Is not that you live multiple times, is that you carry the lives of your ancestors. Their wisdom, learning and experiences have been passed to you and also some bad things. For me is not just DNA and physical data that pass through, but much more.
This brings up an interesting point. For one, "misinterpreting" reincarnation is an odd statement. Not because it can't be done, but because everyone defines reincarnation differently, nothing has (or even can) go into great levels of depth and detail, so what remains is a large collection of different interpretations of the same basic concept. They do stretch far and wide, but nothing can really be stated as definitively the "right" interpretation.
For instance, Zen Buddhism interprets reincarnation as a constant. That is to say, in the last 10 minutes you have been reincarnated an innumerable amount of time. Who you are when you walk in to a room is different than who you are when you leave - and that's reincarnation. One could theorize for days about what this means in relation to a possible afterlife, but in actuality life after death isn't addressed as much as it is in Western culture, which I assume has something to do with the "This moment is the only moment in existence" ideology (More Tao than Zen, but you get the picture) - therefore, theorizing about an afterlife takes attention away from what is truly important.
-
The things is, all I see is life moving forward, never backward. I'm not talking about just genetic inheritance, but part of the soul/energy of passed ancestors is still inside you, I find that to be a more credible approach to past lives visions, etc. Not just from the human form, but to all that took to get to here, is not like humans just popped out in the air. But I also believe that nature had the intention to create humans from the very beginning, as opposite as the evolution theory which states a serious of random events with no purpose whatsoever.
-
A child is the incarnation of his father and mother and all their ancestors. I find reincarnation to be very misinterpreted. Is not that you live multiple times, is that you carry the lives of your ancestors. Their wisdom, learning and experiences have been passed to you and also some bad things. For me is not just DNA and physical data that pass through, but much more.
This could help explain our natural instincts. Where do they come from?
-
I don't really belive in reincarnation... but I just wanted to throw this in here... Enter The Void is a great interesting movie if you would like to investigate the feelings of reincarnation.
-
It doesn't matter what you start of believing, the intricacies of the eternal are so overwhelming when you happen upon them it will rewrite anyone's faith. I like most others was raised to believe what i was told by my parents with blind faith. To be completely truthful my first experience with the collective unconsciousness and first set of past life memories was completely unintentional. A recreational mushroom trip turned into the most significantly life changing moment i never asked for. To begin i had this overwhelming sense that i was dying or on the verge of death, little did i know that to pass through the doors of perception you must experience what some consider death. Obviously I am still inhabiting this consciousness but in that moment i truly left everything i considered myself to be behind. I slipped into the shapeless formless void momentarily before have a feeling i can only liken to 'warp drive' i was being whisked along in another form of my existence that was simply light and energy. Before long (If there ever was a before.. or after....) i was aware of the others. They were separate from me but we were in and of each other. I felt a sensation similar to sexual release but not the base depraved sex of the physical world, it was pure Tantric energy. This was the collective all souls reach before reincarnation in my opinion... from here i experienced the same 'warp drive' feeling of hurtling through infinity. I experienced what some call ego death, I lost all concept of where i had started this trip of lunacy. There was no end and no beginning, and when you reach the end you start. I definitely was tumbling down the rabbit hole as they say. I suppose i should mention at some point a friend of mine who was with me had undergone a very similar experience simultaneously. I hadn't freaked out until i became very aware of this current physical form and the other existing at the same time ( time.. HA!) my friend and i seemed to exist in many dimensions i was aware of all at once. Nearly indescribable but i could see our heads conjoined in prisms of light. Our thoughts blurred together and i started picking up words from his mind and vice versa... for a second my puny ego tried to hold onto 'reality' and decided what was occurring couldn't be real so i initiated a test. I said 'not the first time' to which he said 'nor the last' immediately. We went on like that for sometime. I would think a phrase and he would finish it... not any well known phrase mind you i was making shit up at random it would have been impossible for coincidence. Eventually i gave in to the pulsing overwhelming energy and images, feelings, thoughts, other forms of myself...... i resigned to the collective and let myself float. All concepts of time or self were left far behind and i wouldn't have minded much if i ever returned. It was as if i had perfect clarity and understanding of the workings of the universe, and my role in it. The dumbfounding colors and shifting paradigms all seemed to make sense and the fabric of reality was me, I nothing else. I also had the sense that I (We) was cosmically waiting. I believe we are waiting for our billion x infinity year dream to come to an end so we may wake up to the ultimate reality of consciousness, at least before we begin our next cycle of creation destruction and rest. But i also realize some of us are not done dreaming yet..... ;) When i completely snapped back to 'reality' something had changed in me. I knew i would never be the same but never be able to share my experience because truly words fall short. Having gone to catholic school my whole life I renounced my religion and my 'God.' ( You should have seen my parents faces when i told them I am God. HAA!) Still to this day i seek out other members of the extra dimensional club to shoot the shit with and talk about what we've seen. For a while i convinced myself i was going insane but I was approached by a clairvoyant who sought me out to tell me I wasn't losing it. To end all of my doubt he informed me it was 'not the first time nor the last' which absolutely blew my fucking mind apart. NO ONE could possibly have known about that experience it was very personal. But then again all of our minds are linked in another dimension so i guess i shouldn't have doubted... I will say this though; my life was very simple before this experience, now my mind races and i constantly sense... things... Just be careful with the mind altering hallucinogens, once you see the other side you cant forget, cant go back to being blissfully ignorant of the infiite.... At any rate, keep trippin my heady people and keep expanding consciousness. That's the very summarized version of my story hope it wasn't too long winded! Never fear the unknown, fear the knowing.
-
+1 for ConsciousEvolution. What a post my friend.
-
For those of you who find reincarnation to be far fetched, how about looking at it from a scientific point of view? We know via science that energy is never created or lost. Well, human consciousness is simply electrochemical/electromagnetic. When you pass away the energy that was your basic awareness can't be lost, it simply shifts into another phase of it's existence. Also, from birth the only inevitability is that you will eventually meet your death. Everywhere in the universe the pattern of recycling matter and energy is expressed, and nothing is permanent even on a grandiose scale. Even planets and galaxies have a life span in which they meet a 'death.' When you leave this world as pure energy it may not be the entirety of what you consider yourself and your current consciousness but it is the seat of your soul, the most basic element in which you can be defined. ( On an unrelated note; those of you who have never had an experience while on hallucinogenics with the collective or past life experiences, next time you're in peak trip try a deep state of meditation. You may find you can access the higher realms alot easier though the power of LSD or DMT.) You can knock it just dont crack it. 8)
-
Reincarnation? Yet another case of human arrogance, wish thinking and solipsism without a shred of evidence to support it.
There, now grow up and move on...
-
Being spiritually aware doesn't mean you need to 'grow up.' Maybe this is a topic in which you have no experience/understanding therefore should not offer your surely 'expert' opinion.... And you speak of arrogance sir? ???
-
A couple of years ago, I was a complete atheist.
These days, it doesn't make sense to me that nothing happens after we die.
Reincarnation has been on my mind a lot recently. It's a fascinating concept.
-
Reincarnation? Yet another case of human arrogance, wish thinking and solipsism without a shred of evidence to support it.
There, now grow up and move on...
IMO that's a rather arrogant response.You're saying if something isn't backed by scientific evidence it doesn't exist? (remember most scientific breakthroughs are laughed at first)
How can you actually believe that? Especially in this day of age. We don't understand FUCKING JACK SHIT in the grand scheme of things.
We have come a far way, but we all have very much to learn about both ourselves and the universe. I could honestly care less if reincarnation exists i'm just happy that i'm here, as a
human living life. Something many of us seem to take for granted. Not like i'm trying to tell anyone how to live, most of them seem to know what they're doing :-\
The things is, all I see is life moving forward, never backward. I'm not talking about just genetic inheritance, but part of the soul/energy of passed ancestors is still inside you, I find that to be a more credible approach to past lives visions, etc. Not just from the human form, but to all that took to get to here, is not like humans just popped out in the air. But I also believe that nature had the intention to create humans from the very beginning, as opposite as the evolution theory which states a serious of random events with no purpose whatsoever.
This.
-
In the light of past lives and reincarnation, the Buddhist practicing Vipassana would say that we are reborn death after death until we have completely rid ourselves of our "sankaras", or the negative karma we accumulate during our lives through attachment and aversion. We eliminate our sankaras through meditation that focuses our attention to the body's sensations, and effectively shedding any judgment over these sensations such as pain or pleasure. Once we accept that all it is, is only sensation, that is just is, we are present in the infinity and stillness of the moment, and we begin to eliminate similar judgments in other aspects of our lives that have caused us to hold on or escape in the past. We do this simultaneously for this life, and for all other lives past. Once all the sankaras have been eliminated and no new ones have been generated (any new attachments or aversions multiply sankaras) our soul is finally free to enter nirvana, for it has rid itself of all its impurities. Otherwise it will keep reincarnating and accumulating more sankaras.
-
If I understand reincarnation correct.
If you live a good live you get reborn higher up the caste system right.
If you live a bad life you get in to a lower caste or you get reborn as an animal.
Lets say a rat. Now tell me what kind of good deeds a rat has to do to get reborn as a human again.
As far as I know reincarnation is tied in to the cast system and the caste system is the most unjust system of
oppression in human history.
Wish you all the best in this life and the next
-
If I understand reincarnation correct.
If you live a good live you get reborn higher up the caste system right.
If you live a bad life you get in to a lower caste or you get reborn as an animal.
Lets say a rat. Now tell me what kind of good deeds a rat has to do to get reborn as a human again.
As far as I know reincarnation is tied in to the cast system and the caste system is the most unjust system of
oppression in human history.
Wish you all the best in this life and the next
That is only one view of reincarnation. Another view is that there is only one Consciousness in the universe. This Universal Consciousness incarnates itself in every living being. Every living being is a face of God, in this view. In such a universe, there would be perfect justice: if you hurt someone, you are only hurting yourself in another incarnation. That is karmic action and reaction. If you need to kill an animal for food, you'll pay back by being that animal in another incarnation. If you oppress people that are of lower caste, you will pay back by being those oppressed people in another incarnation. Etc
If such a view of reincarnation is true, then there is perfect justice in the universe. There is no "problem of good and evil". Everything is paid back.
As for memories of past-life incarnations, that could be the result of the expansion of the mind into the cosmic memory of this universal consciousness.
-
So if you are an animal how would you get up in the caste system. Example a lion. A lion has to eat meat he physiologically cannot go vegan. He would die. How does he have to live to move up in the cast.
But there is good and evil. Its only a point of view. A word like justice comes to mind
Example. Somebody murders somebody with out due right.
If proven guilty will should be executed. A life for a life justice
-
So if you are an animal how would you get up in the caste system. Example a lion. A lion has to eat meat he physiologically cannot go vegan. He would die. How does he have to live to move up in the cast.
I already explained it. You are already the rat. You are already the lion. You are already in the lower caste. You are already in the upper caste. There is only one Mind. The same Mind incarnates itself in all living things.
I don't think you understood what I was saying.
-
So if you are an animal how would you get up in the caste system. Example a lion. A lion has to eat meat he physiologically cannot go vegan. He would die. How does he have to live to move up in the cast.
I already explained it. You are already the rat. You are already the lion. You are already in the lower caste. You are already in the upper caste. There is only one Mind. The same Mind incarnates itself in all living things.
I don't think you understood what I was saying.
Forgive for saying this. I think what you are saying does not make any sense.
What evidence do you have to support this theory. I am not every familiar with this concept.
Please if you care to explain it to me like I am five your old.
In the mean time wish you true succes in this and the next.
-
Forgive for saying this. I think what you are saying does not make any sense.
What evidence do you have to support this theory. I am not every familiar with this concept.
Please if you care to explain it to me like I am five your old.
In the mean time wish you true succes in this and the next.
I think what Joywind meant was that your consciousness and my consciousness are all one consciousness. We experience the world subjectively so it APPEARS we are all separate entities when in fact, we are all connected. All possibilities exist simultaneously. In physics, most of us believe this to be true. The double slit experiment, or Young's Experiment, tells us that matter exists as waves and particles. Once a conscious observer looks at matter the wave function collapses immediately and the particles become something fixed. The problem with proving this theory further is we currently cannot devise an experiment that will allow us to directly observe other Universes where these variations of our own world are played out. All of the evidence we have presently is indirect evidence. The maths actually supports the multiverse and parallel Universe theories.
Reincarnation is not as wild an idea as you might imagine. Its been mentioned already in this thread that we all know energy cannot be destroyed and is constantly recycled between energy and matter (E=mc2).
So this means it is absolutely plausible for the same mathematics to work within Universal consciousness. Ask anyone in science, and I have asked many, the question "What exactly is consciousness?". We don't know. We do know it exists, and that it goes far and beyond the consciousness we possess, but what exactly it is, we may not have a reasonable explanation for many generations to come, or possibly even ever. In fact we will only have an answer to that IF the Universal consciousness decides to share it with us.
All the brilliant ideas that have happened since the dawn of modern thinking humans? That wasn't the idea process of some smart cookie. That was the human mind to which the Universe conveyed its knowledge. When Alexander Graham Bell successfully invented a working telephone, he was up against Elisha Gray. There was much controversy as to which one actually came up with idea first. Of course, it was neither, simply the Universe giving up its secrets. Bell and Gray were simply the receivers of this information. Same goes for Thomas Edison and his numerous competitors to find a metallic alloy that would sustain an electrical current. So next time you have a great idea, don't pat yourself on the back too hard, thank the Universe.
Just as there are a finite number of particles and energy in existence, the Universal consciousness should theoretically also be finite. So when a child is born today, the consciousness within that child will almost certainly have had some physical form previously, whether it be on this planet or another. You could argue when we die, our subjective experiences are released into unified consciousness and some of these experiences can therefore leak into a new conscious being. Truth is, we just do not know other than it is absolutely possible. This is probably one reason why the Universe seeks to create intelligent life, so it can have many billions of subjective experiences and obtain all possible viewpoints. This way the Universe can understand itself better.
I believe that we all came from Universal consciousness and to that we shall return. One fine day all life on this planet will cease to exist. Eventually the entire Solar System will cease to exist. Far away another star will burst into life, a planet just ripe for life to evolve will emerge and the whole cycle will begin all over again. Can't wait :o
-
Lets me think about this.
-
shorter than DrQuantum's :
- reincarnation is a model that interprets the continousity of a universal presence on a timeline
- evidence from modern observations and their interpretation in quantum physics gives hints on this universal presence
that said, you cannot derive spiritual facts from physical observations,
@jundullahi:don't make the mistake and confuse a word we are discussing here with misconceptions that have been linked to it during the centuries. reincarnation isn't "yet another reward-and-punishment system" as some authorities liked to tell us to threaten us into obedience.
@joywind: i find it's still a bit hard to let go of the "timeline" and "evolution" thing, i guess i'm not over the fear of death here :O ... in my mind, the timeline model struggles a bit with the "it's all one" model
@Ahoyboy: What is your evidence against reincarnation ? (related question: What is consciousness ?)
My opinions -> I think that life starts to make sense only in a bigger picture. The human life span is just too short for this. Conciousness is nothing physical, so where does it go when/after it leaves the body? Reincarnation makes the most sense here, and yes we are not confined to this planet, we probably travel a lot of worlds during our personal evolution, but part of the game is that we are confined to the world we incarnate in WHILE we are there.
-
not far fetched. a lot of religions talk about it so there might be something to it. can't be dismissed without research, even though proper research involves dying first.
-
I dont fear death. I long for it.
-
you should not say that to loudly ;) people might ask you wat you mean.
-
Does anyone believe they can be reincarnated even before they die?
Sorry if this has already been stated!
-
how is that even possible? if you are alive, you are alive.
-
how is that even possible? if you are alive, you are alive.
But you are always changing and evolving when you're alive. What if you "really" could set your future by behaving/thinking about your actions in this life!
-
If you can set your future.
Then try to set the date of your death
Then try to set the place of your death
Then try to set how much you will earn tomorrow.
-
I ask you the question did this happen before or after the merciless bombing of Iraq and Afghanistan and other countries? Did this happen before the oppression by the British Empire of India where undoubtedly many innocent people did. And if this was after all those even I assume you are smart enough to figure out why some one would do just a thing.
Democracy, Communist, Nationalism, Capitalism have killed more people then Islam ever did. Go check you history.
And about you getting rid of us you are welcome to try.
The American cannot even win a the war in Afghanistan with all there modern technology against group of people on slipper armed with only light arms.
Did you ever wonder why.
And no need to be offensive. I personally understand there motivation. Do not mean that I agree with them.
Your governments are democratic in name only. Through the wonder of mass media and manufactured consent.
And in the end everybody will get what is the deserve.
-
Reincarnation and the idea of the afterlife is the product of the human mind's inability to comprehend the absoluteness of death IMO. If living a life of religion makes you a better person and helps you deal with the thought of death then good for you but I truly believe that after death you simply cease to exist for all eternity. I did mushrooms and went to alice in wonderland and about 5 minutes in that thought occured to me and I almost broke down in tears. Trying to comprehend never again being able to enjoy the pleasure of existence is very discomforting, as is the idea of 'eternity', think about it for a while, it sucks.
-
The first few posts in this thread are why masterblaster is the only troll on this forum that I kind of respect. I've thought about this for a while.
He's a genuinely intelligent person, which I gathered from some of his posts in the Security forum, and a few posts elsewhere -- those brief moments when he isn't trolling, or irrefutable logic shows through the trolling. I just can't fathom why he wastes so much time trolling this forum. What is the point MB?
-
Reincarnation and the idea of the afterlife is the product of the human mind's inability to comprehend the absoluteness of death IMO. If living a life of religion makes you a better person and helps you deal with the thought of death then good for you but I truly believe that after death you simply cease to exist for all eternity. I did mushrooms and went to alice in wonderland and about 5 minutes in that thought occured to me and I almost broke down in tears. Trying to comprehend never again being able to enjoy the pleasure of existence is very discomforting, as is the idea of 'eternity', think about it for a while, it sucks.
No, I'm happy to tell you that it does not just end. How do I know? I was pronounced dead on a hospital bed before. Ask anyone with "real" close to death experiences and you will see that life surely does not end with the passing of this material body!
-
Reincarnation and the idea of the afterlife is the product of the human mind's inability to comprehend the absoluteness of death IMO. If living a life of religion makes you a better person and helps you deal with the thought of death then good for you but I truly believe that after death you simply cease to exist for all eternity. I did mushrooms and went to alice in wonderland and about 5 minutes in that thought occured to me and I almost broke down in tears. Trying to comprehend never again being able to enjoy the pleasure of existence is very discomforting, as is the idea of 'eternity', think about it for a while, it sucks.
No, I'm happy to tell you that it does not just end. How do I know? I was pronounced dead on a hospital bed before. Ask anyone with "real" close to death experiences and you will see that life surely does not end with the passing of this material body!
Hope you're right, my friend. I'd like nothing better than to be wrong. There would be nothing more liberating than being released of the fear of death.
-
I never understood why we lend any but the most abstract credence to the recalled experiences of people who have been "near" death. It's painfully obvious that this kind of testimony can not be trusted in any remotely scientific sense.
-
Reincarnation and the idea of the afterlife is the product of the human mind's inability to comprehend the absoluteness of death IMO. If living a life of religion makes you a better person and helps you deal with the thought of death then good for you but I truly believe that after death you simply cease to exist for all eternity. I did mushrooms and went to alice in wonderland and about 5 minutes in that thought occured to me and I almost broke down in tears. Trying to comprehend never again being able to enjoy the pleasure of existence is very discomforting, as is the idea of 'eternity', think about it for a while, it sucks.
No, I'm happy to tell you that it does not just end. How do I know? I was pronounced dead on a hospital bed before. Ask anyone with "real" close to death experiences and you will see that life surely does not end with the passing of this material body!
Hope you're right, my friend. I'd like nothing better than to be wrong. There would be nothing more liberating than being released of the fear of death.
I know I'm right, abitpekish claims this is not scientific. Tell me what is more scientific that actual observation. Even better I am speaking from first hand knowledge! Fear is a monster, but a necessary monster. Lose all fear especially the biggest one (death) and you will be free and see with a different set of eyes.
-
Reincarnation and the idea of the afterlife is the product of the human mind's inability to comprehend the absoluteness of death IMO. If living a life of religion makes you a better person and helps you deal with the thought of death then good for you but I truly believe that after death you simply cease to exist for all eternity. I did mushrooms and went to alice in wonderland and about 5 minutes in that thought occured to me and I almost broke down in tears. Trying to comprehend never again being able to enjoy the pleasure of existence is very discomforting, as is the idea of 'eternity', think about it for a while, it sucks.
No, I'm happy to tell you that it does not just end. How do I know? I was pronounced dead on a hospital bed before. Ask anyone with "real" close to death experiences and you will see that life surely does not end with the passing of this material body!
Hope you're right, my friend. I'd like nothing better than to be wrong. There would be nothing more liberating than being released of the fear of death.
I know I'm right, abitpekish claims this is not scientific. Tell me what is more scientific that actual observation. Even better I am speaking from first hand knowledge! Fear is a monster, but a necessary monster. Lose all fear especially the biggest one (death) and you will be free and see with a different set of eyes.
I do not doubt that we have these experiences. I have had the experience a few times myself. I do, however, temper what I learn through direct experience with what can be reasonably claimed. I work to not attach any more meaning than is reasonable, because I know I am a silly, clever, utterly credulous little beast.
-
Well this is the beauty of life right here in my opinion. The test that consist of blending scientific knowledge with religious/spiritual/supernatural experiences!
-
Agree with everything you have said. Athiesm and Materialism is as you siad, are just as much coping mechanisms/comforting delusions as religeon, spirituality, cherry picking beliefs from different religeons and creating your own philosophies on life. Its a belief that gives people an answer, any answer, to a question there really isnt an answer for. Some people are content with the answer the belief system of Athiesm gives, some need something more comforting like an afterlife in a utopian heaven, some people laugh at organised religeons and their eternal afterlives saying that its a fairytale belief, so they find out about reincarnation and somehow it seems more logical so they cling onto that.
At the end of the day, what youve experienced imho is AWESOME. From what I can tell, these LSD experiences have taken you out of a purely comforting belief system in Athiesm, and gave you the ability to analise your existence from an ego-less, unconditioned perspective and start to see that your perspective through the eyes of an athiest Is just that, just another belief like religeon that comforts people. Think of your dispositions/beliefs/perspectives and opinions on existance as a structure, a wall if you will, a wall that encircles the vulnerable part of your mind/self. Now IMHO, when you start altering your state of conciousness, especaiily thought the psychadelic realm of drugs like LSD, Weed, shrooms, DMT, MDMA etc etc etc etc they start to slowly break this wall down, leaving the vulnerable "You" (if this exists) open to perceiving previously blocked out perspectives/opinions in existance. Allowing for you to psychologically "evolve" your awareness of existance.
Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is, that all this talk on spirituality and philosophy, everything ive said, you said, in fact anything any human has ever said on the subject of spirituality and an afterlife, is all just opinion and pure speculation. For that reason, I choose to takwe the position of LOVING talking about philosophy, reading about it, looking into different spiritual paths etc. But always remembering that every one of these opinions on spirituality cannot and probably will never be able to be measured and proven/disproven, so I will never hold a belief system, although, that in itself IS my belief system, lolz.
Life is the trippiest fucken trip of all, lol.
S
What a crock of horse-shit. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a God, so how is it in any way a defense mechanism? That's all it is, a lack of belief. Your argument reminds me of a time where someone was desperately attempting to convince another that homosexuals choose to be that way, and was met with the following, "They don't choose to be that way, why would you choose to be bullied and oppressed your entire life?" - This in most cases makes sense. It's the same situation with holding religious views. Depending on where you live, the views you hold form an overall degree of correlation with what the norm is. Weak minded conformists tend to delude themselves into believing anything that grants conformity, whilst at the opposite end of the spectrum, anti-conformists reject anything that is considered a popular view simply because it is popular and for no other reason. This clearly does not apply to atheism since it is not the most popular of things. This tied in with various other factors including indoctrination and varying social pressures make religion both a defense mechanism for those who are mentally dim and those who would benefit socially from appearing to have such beliefs.
-
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a God, ...
Atheism is the belief that there is no God.
Agnosticism is the belief that the existence of God is unknowable.
Gnosticism is the belief that the existence of God can be known through gnosis -- direct experience.
how is [atheism] in any way a defense mechanism
Because atheism is wishful thinking.
Depending on where you live, the views you hold form an overall degree of correlation with what the norm is.
True. And we live in an age of widespread atheism and materialism. Today the conformists tend to be atheists and materialists. True, there are a lot of CULTURAL Christians, but that doesn't count for much.
I was raised in an atheist household, and was an atheist until the age of 26, when I had a spontaneous religious experience in which God revealed himself to me as my own higher Self. I wasn't conforming to any norm. I was rebelling against the norm.
Weak minded conformists tend to delude themselves into believing anything that grants conformity, whilst at the opposite end of the spectrum, anti-conformists reject anything that is considered a popular view simply because it is popular and for no other reason. This clearly does not apply to atheism since it is not the most popular of things. This tied in with various other factors including indoctrination and varying social pressures make religion both a defense mechanism for those who are mentally dim and those who would benefit socially from appearing to have such beliefs.
Atheism is retarded.
-
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a God, ...
Atheism is the belief that there is no God.
There you go repurposing words again. Atheism is the OPINION that there is no God, which by definition implies a lack of belief in the gods of human imagination. Some atheists fail to understand this, sure, but there is nothing inconsistent in my declaring my opinion of atheism in the context of my conclusion of agnosticism.
Agnosticism is the belief that the existence of God is unknowable.
Gnosticism is the belief that the existence of God can be known through gnosis -- direct experience.
how is [atheism] in any way a defense mechanism
Because atheism is wishful thinking.
Now that is rich. Please support this outrageous claim.
Depending on where you live, the views you hold form an overall degree of correlation with what the norm is.
True. And we live in an age of widespread atheism and materialism. Today the conformists tend to be atheists and materialists. True, there are a lot of CULTURAL Christians, but that doesn't count for much.
Nor does your opinion so far, given the lack of supporting arguments for your claims. Please illuminate for us how "today the confirmists tend to be atheists and materialists" and then tell us how this idea applies to the conversation you're participating in.
I was raised in an atheist household, and was an atheist until the age of 26, when I had a spontaneous religious experience in which God revealed himself to me as my own higher Self.
So the god that revealed itself to you was not the "God" Jews/Muslims/Christians/Hindus/etc speak of when they use the term. Got it. So what was your point again?
I wasn't conforming to any norm. I was rebelling against the norm.
You were rebelling against the subject of ego, and you then replaced it with yet another subject infected by ego. You failed to transcend.
Weak minded conformists tend to delude themselves into believing anything that grants conformity, whilst at the opposite end of the spectrum, anti-conformists reject anything that is considered a popular view simply because it is popular and for no other reason. This clearly does not apply to atheism since it is not the most popular of things. This tied in with various other factors including indoctrination and varying social pressures make religion both a defense mechanism for those who are mentally dim and those who would benefit socially from appearing to have such beliefs.
Atheism is retarded.
Your ego continues to write checks your intellect is clearly unprepared to cash out. Your categorical declaration that "atheism is retarded" is really just you saying "I don't understand the difference between 'some atheists' and 'atheism'".
-
I think that any.... possibility, for lack of a better term (there is one, I'm just not smart enough to think of it lol), of what happens after we die is very interesting. No matter how you look at it, no one knows what happens when we die.
Will I be happy if I die and go to an everlasting life in heaven, yes.
Will I be happy if I die and get reincarnated as a god damn eagle, yes.
Will I be happy if I die and everything goes black and there is nothing and I'm an non existent, well I will have no emotions so it doesn't matter.
There are so many possibilities of what can happen and maybe it's something so fucking crazy that our minds cannot even fathom.
We just don't know.
-
I think that any.... possibility, for lack of a better term (there is one, I'm just not smart enough to think of it lol), of what happens after we die is very interesting. No matter how you look at it, no one knows what happens when we die.
Will I be happy if I die and go to an everlasting life in heaven, yes.
Will I be happy if I die and get reincarnated as a god damn eagle, yes.
Will I be happy if I die and everything goes black and there is nothing and I'm an non existent, well I will have no emotions so it doesn't matter.
There are so many possibilities of what can happen and maybe it's something so fucking crazy that our minds cannot even fathom.
We just don't know.
I find it hard to believe that someone would be happy to live an everlasting life in a 'heaven' - the very concept of such a thing is terrifying. To be forcefully placed in some alternate dimension by some tyrannical entity doesn't sound the slightest bit appealing to me.
Reincarnation doesn't seem plausible to me either. I see the third option as the most likely to occur.
-
I find it hard to believe that someone would be happy to live an everlasting life in a 'heaven' - the very concept of such a thing is terrifying.
I don't think you understand the concept of heaven. Heaven is eternity. Eternity does not mean an infinite series of events going on forever and ever in linear time. Eternity is outside of time. Your view of 'heaven' would be within time -- time going on forever and ever. But heaven is completely outside of time, so it doesn't "go on forever and ever". There's also no boredom, for there is no ego to experience boredom.
Heaven can be experienced on earth by practising meditation. It's a state of timelessness and egolessness. A sense of complete unity with everything. This is the state we go into when we die. There is nothing 'terrifying' about it.
-
I find it hard to believe that someone would be happy to live an everlasting life in a 'heaven' - the very concept of such a thing is terrifying.
I don't think you understand the concept of heaven. Heaven is eternity. Eternity does not mean an infinite series of events going on forever and ever in linear time. It is outside of time. Heaven can be experienced on earth by practising meditation -- a state of timelessness and egolessness. It is a state of complete unity with everything. This is the state we go into when we die. There is nothing 'terrifying' about it.
This I agree with. Heaven is here on earth, Heaven can be reached!
-
I find it hard to believe that someone would be happy to live an everlasting life in a 'heaven' - the very concept of such a thing is terrifying.
I don't think you understand the concept of heaven. Heaven is eternity. Eternity does not mean an infinite series of events going on forever and ever in linear time. It is outside of time. Heaven can be experienced on earth by practising meditation -- a state of timelessness and egolessness. It is a state of complete unity with everything. This is the state we go into when we die. There is nothing 'terrifying' about it.
This I agree with. Heaven is here on earth, Heaven can be reached!
Sure, it can be reached on earth, and it is reached after death, but it is not 'on' earth. It is outside of both space and time. It can be known while still alive through meditation, contemplative prayer, yoga, etc. Psychedelics can give you a glimpse of it as well.
-
I think that any.... possibility, for lack of a better term (there is one, I'm just not smart enough to think of it lol), of what happens after we die is very interesting. No matter how you look at it, no one knows what happens when we die.
Will I be happy if I die and go to an everlasting life in heaven, yes.
Will I be happy if I die and get reincarnated as a god damn eagle, yes.
Will I be happy if I die and everything goes black and there is nothing and I'm an non existent, well I will have no emotions so it doesn't matter.
There are so many possibilities of what can happen and maybe it's something so fucking crazy that our minds cannot even fathom.
We just don't know.
The absolute truth is exactly what you said: no one knows what happens when we die. Any speculation past this point is just that: speculation. This speculation can be personally useful and beautiful, but trust no person who would tell you they KNOW what happens when we die. Especially not when that person is yourSelf.
I find it hard to believe that someone would be happy to live an everlasting life in a 'heaven' - the very concept of such a thing is terrifying.
I don't think you understand the concept of heaven. Heaven is eternity. Eternity does not mean an infinite series of events going on forever and ever in linear time. Eternity is outside of time. Your view of 'heaven' would be within time -- time going on forever and ever. But heaven is completely outside of time, so it doesn't "go on forever and ever". There's also no boredom, for there is no ego to experience boredom.
You are speculating on a subject about which you can know nothing. It serves no good purpose to declare what it eternity is "like" in an experiential sense. The idea of "eternity" is strictly metaphorical, and to authoritatively speak of it as a known-to-you quantity is basically nonsense.
Heaven can be experienced on earth by practising meditation. It's a state of timelessness and egolessness. A sense of complete unity with everything. This is the state we go into when we die. There is nothing 'terrifying' about it.
You're making illogical connections. Through meditation we can learn to notice that the subject "I" (ego) doesn't exist, to momentarily relieve ourselves of our constant suffering, to locate life-changingly overwhelming experiences of deep and seemingly infinite love, to rediscover a simple existential truth: we are all one giant beautiful fucking perfectly imperfect thing. This might be "heaven" in a metaphorical sense, but there is absolutely no reason to literally believe that it's what happens to our identities when we die[1]. Ultimately we're all still left to go about the business of our lives as well as we possibly can. I'm not convinced that spreading unreasonable claims of fact is a good way for us to go about that.
[1] abitpeckish will ultimately succumb to biological death. It won't matter to him what happens after he dies, because the he'll be dead.
-
You are speculating on a subject about which you can know nothing.
No, I'm not speculating, what I have said is based on experience. You are free to believe me or disbelieve me. I am not trying to persuade anyone. I have nothing to sell. You will find out eventually anyway. Better luck next incarnation.
I just say what the truth is. Those who want to know the truth will follow the necessary steps and instructions to experience enlightenment. Those who don't want to know the truth will not follow the path. You don't have to accept the truth. It's not like you have any choice in the matter anyway.
Through meditation we can learn to notice that the subject "I" (ego) doesn't exist, (etc)
There are higher levels of samadhi than you can dream of.
This might be "heaven" in a metaphorical sense, but there is absolutely no reason to literally believe that it's what happens to our identities when we die[1].
There's no reason for you, because you haven't experienced what I'm talking about. You're speaking from ignorance.
abitpeckish will ultimately succumb to biological death. It won't matter to him what happens after he dies, because the he'll be dead.
You don't die because you were never born in the first place. That in you which is aware -- which is not the empirical ego -- lives on forever and ever, and had no beginning in time, and has no end. Again, I don't have to prove this to you. I just lay down the facts as they are. You can accept them in this life only if you are ready to know the truth. But you will find out eventually anyway, if not in this life, then in another life.
-
There you go repurposing words again.
No, atheism is the belief that there is no God. That's what the word has always meant. You are redefining the term as a 'lack' of belief in God. But this is just semantic obscurantism on your part. I'd rather discuss the substantive issue -- whether or not God exists -- rather than the definition of the word 'atheism'. Let's just not use the word atheism. Is the belief, "God does nkt exist", true or false? -- that's what should be discussed. Atheism is just a convenient word for this position.
Now that is rich. Please support this outrageous claim.
Of course atheism is wishful thinking. To know God is to give up your ordinary identity. People don't want to do this. They want to believe that they exist, that they are in control, etc. It's scary at first when you wake up to the knowledge that you exist only as a thought-image inside the mind of something infinitely greater and more powerful than yourself. This knowledge frightens a lot of people. It's something we all know deep down, but refuse to admit to ourselves because it is so terrifying. But it's only scary until we are willing to give up all attachments, and with this comes the knowledge that we are not the thought-image, but the Mind that dreamt it into existence.
Please illuminate for us how "today the confirmists tend to be atheists and materialists" and then tell us how this idea applies to the conversation you're participating in.
You would have to be blind not to see that atheistic materialism is the dominant philosophy of modern culture.
So the god that revealed itself to you was not the "God" Jews/Muslims/Christians/Hindus/etc speak of when they use the term.
The Gods of all religions are the same. The God I experienced was the same God that is spoken of in the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, the Koran, the Vedic scriptures, etc. It is the Tao of Taoism, the Emptiness of Buddhism, the One of Plotinus, the Brahman of Hinduism, the Godhead of Christian mysticism, etc, etc. All religions are one in substance.
You were rebelling against the subject of ego, and you then replaced it with yet another subject infected by ego. You failed to transcend.
I don't have an ego.
Your ego continues to write checks your intellect is clearly unprepared to cash out. Your categorical declaration that "atheism is retarded" is really just you saying "I don't understand the difference between 'some atheists' and 'atheism'".
Oh, I do understand the difference. Atheism is inherently retarded.
-
Atheism is not retarded, and to me there is a clear difference between religion and spirituality. I consider myself an atheist, in that I do not believe in a God, monotheistic or otherwise, who has a plan for my life and rules for me to follow.
This doesn't mean that I don't believe in ANYTHING, or that atheists don't have their own 'spiritual coping mechanisms'. A few pages ago someone said that life was like a fractal...I agree with that. I've posted this quote elsewhere but I think it fits here too;
"All your nonsenses and truths, your finery and squalid options, combine and coalesce to one noise including laugh and whimper, scream and sigh, forever and forever repeating, in any tongue we care to choose, whatever lessened, separated message we want to hear. It all boils down to nothing, and where we have the means and will to fix our reference within that flux; there we are. If it has any final signal, the universe says simply, but with every possible complication, "Existence", and it neither pressures us, nor draws us out, except as we allow. Let me be part of that outrageous chaos ... and I am."
One of the main differences between me and a (fervently) religious person is that my beliefs are I suppose less definite, less rigid. They are guided by what I feel and experience rather than what I read or what I am told. And yes, they are shaped somewhat by my experiences with psychedelics.
There is an Alan Watts video entitled 'The Real You' which I watched after my first high level trip - I agreed with some of it, but not all, and engrained the bits I liked into my personal belief system, which is mine and unlike any other, except by coincidence I suppose.
Yeah, you could say I just pick and choose my beliefs but...that's what I see most religious people doing with their chosen text (mixed fabrics are OK, gays are not, etc) - hey, at least I'm open about it ;)
-
I find it hard to believe that someone would be happy to live an everlasting life in a 'heaven' - the very concept of such a thing is terrifying.
I don't think you understand the concept of heaven. Heaven is eternity. Eternity does not mean an infinite series of events going on forever and ever in linear time. It is outside of time. Heaven can be experienced on earth by practising meditation -- a state of timelessness and egolessness. It is a state of complete unity with everything. This is the state we go into when we die. There is nothing 'terrifying' about it.
This I agree with. Heaven is here on earth, Heaven can be reached!
Sure, it can be reached on earth, and it is reached after death, but it is not 'on' earth. It is outside of both space and time. It can be known while still alive through meditation, contemplative prayer, yoga, etc. Psychedelics can give you a glimpse of it as well.
There is no rule that says you can't have more than one heaven. You can start making your heaven right now on Earth, when you die, who knows, maybe u get an upgrade, or a downgrade depending on your behavior.
-
I find it hard to believe that someone would be happy to live an everlasting life in a 'heaven' - the very concept of such a thing is terrifying.
I don't think you understand the concept of heaven. Heaven is eternity. Eternity does not mean an infinite series of events going on forever and ever in linear time. It is outside of time. Heaven can be experienced on earth by practising meditation -- a state of timelessness and egolessness. It is a state of complete unity with everything. This is the state we go into when we die. There is nothing 'terrifying' about it.
This I agree with. Heaven is here on earth, Heaven can be reached!
Sure, it can be reached on earth, and it is reached after death, but it is not 'on' earth. It is outside of both space and time. It can be known while still alive through meditation, contemplative prayer, yoga, etc. Psychedelics can give you a glimpse of it as well.
There is no rule that says you can't have more than one heaven. You can start making your heaven right now on Earth, when you die, who knows, maybe u get an upgrade, or a downgrade depending on your behavior.
yes, this life is heaven. but only when we things as they are.
-
I agree, this is basically my point. I see things with a new pair of eyes now. I have spent time in my own personal hell, until I learned to really see things as they are, when that happened I stumbled right into heaven.
-
I think when you expire it will be like what it was before you were born. Do you remember before you were born? Completely black. I like the idea of having a faith though. Sometimes releases a dopamine hit and feels like doesn't matter what happens nothing can go wrong cause if I pass I will be going to a better place eg heaven.
-
Do you remember before you were born?
Yes, I have memories of events, people, scenes, etc., that took place before I was born. And not just random images, but the sort of complex formative memories that explain my current personality, just as some of my early childhood memories explain who I am today.
-
Do you remember before you were born?
Yes, I have memories of events, people, scenes, etc., that took place before I was born. And not just random images, but the sort of complex formative memories that explain my current personality, just as some of my early childhood memories explain who I am today.
How is that possible as you had no functional brain and were present in your mothers stomach with no view of the outside world? Your view on what you think you experienced is skewed and not correct and do not take it serious as it is not accurate. Child hold memories sure as you were living and had functional organs/body parts in order to view and experience and remember said times.
It is good that you feel you had them experiences but they are biological not possible due to not being developed enough to experience them. Sorry to dissapoint you. Peoples view on reincarnation as just views and opinions that people have , some will differ but no one really knows. Good to speculate though.
-
How is that possible as you had no functional brain
Because the brain exists only inside the mind, and mind is nonlocal -- it isn't confined to the brain. Memories are encoded into the very fabric of reality itself.
and were present in your mothers stomach with no view of the outside world?
I don't have memories of being inside of my mother's "stomach" (lol). I have memories of past lives.
Your view on what you think you experienced is skewed and not correct and do not take it serious as it is not accurate.
You know not that of which you speak.
Child hold memories sure as you were living and had functional organs/body parts in order to view and experience and remember said times.
You're starting from false premises, and drawing unsound conclusions from false premise. You start with the assumption that consciousness is solely and entirely a function of brain activity. This is a false assumption. You see, if you start with wrong assumptions, you get wrong conclusions. You're starting with the assumption, "materialism is true". I reject that assumption on philosophical, scientific, and experiential grounds.
It is good that you feel you had them experiences but they are biological not possible due to not being developed enough to experience them. Sorry to dissapoint you. Peoples view on reincarnation as just views and opinions that people have , some will differ but no one really knows. Good to speculate though.
Again, you simply don't know what you are talking about. You have opinions on things that are outside of your experience.
-
How is that possible as you had no functional brain
Because the brain exists only inside the mind, and mind is nonlocal -- it isn't confined to the brain. Memories are encoded into the very fabric of reality itself.
and were present in your mothers stomach with no view of the outside world?
I don't have memories of being inside of my mother's "stomach" (lol). I have memories of past lives.
Your view on what you think you experienced is skewed and not correct and do not take it serious as it is not accurate.
You know not that of which you speak.
Child hold memories sure as you were living and had functional organs/body parts in order to view and experience and remember said times.
You're starting from false premises, and drawing unsound conclusions from false premise. You start with the assumption that consciousness is solely and entirely a function of brain activity. This is a false assumption. You see, if you start with wrong assumptions, you get wrong conclusions. You're starting with the assumption, "materialism is true". I reject that assumption on philosophical, scientific, and experiential grounds.
It is good that you feel you had them experiences but they are biological not possible due to not being developed enough to experience them. Sorry to dissapoint you. Peoples view on reincarnation as just views and opinions that people have , some will differ but no one really knows. Good to speculate though.
Again, you simply don't know what you are talking about. You have opinions on things that are outside of your experience.
And you are stating experiences that you may have convinced yourself they have happened in your eyes but I am sure you understand the sceptism that you would receive once you have informed people of that? Your opinion is not main stream , nothing suggests to take your experience serious , it is not widespread or a well know happening of any human being I feel you just dreamt it or perhaps have a wild imagination , again which is cool just don't take your serious to serious and appreciate the doubt that you will entail once informing people.
-
You are speculating on a subject about which you can know nothing.
No, I'm not speculating, what I have said is based on experience. You are free to believe me or disbelieve me. I am not trying to persuade anyone. I have nothing to sell. You will find out eventually anyway.
You may have nothing to sell, but you are nonetheless actively selling it.
I just say what the truth is. Those who want to know the truth will follow the necessary steps and instructions to experience enlightenment. Those who don't want to know the truth will not follow the path. You don't have to accept the truth. It's not like you have any choice in the matter anyway.
If you think you know the ultimate nature of truth, we know you don't. It's that simple.
Through meditation we can learn to notice that the subject "I" (ego) doesn't exist, (etc)
There are higher levels of samadhi than you can dream of.
That's built-in to what I've said, as well as being built-in to the nature of the fucking mind. When you say things like this in this context, you open the door for crazy shit to slip in. For example: sungazing, Inedia, and even homeopathy follow the "logic" of this kind of cutesy illogic. The truth of your statement here is much more superficial and much less useful than you are overtly implying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sungazing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia
This might be "heaven" in a metaphorical sense, but there is absolutely no reason to literally believe that it's what happens to our identities when we die[1].
There's no reason for you, because you haven't experienced what I'm talking about. You're speaking from ignorance.
No, there's no reason. As in "a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event".
abitpeckish will ultimately succumb to biological death. It won't matter to him what happens after he dies, because the he'll be dead.
You don't die because you were never born in the first place. That in you which is aware -- which is not the empirical ego -- lives on forever and ever, and had no beginning in time, and has no end. Again, I don't have to prove this to you. I just lay down the facts as they are. You can accept them in this life only if you are ready to know the truth. But you will find out eventually anyway, if not in this life, then in another life.
This is semantic nonsense. In the context of "I don't exist", yeah I never die because I don't exist. But this is not deeply meaningful in any practical sense. Again, realizing this still leaves us with questions like what to make of ourselves and how to best go about doing so. Glimpsing one's unity with truth bestows a responsibility to truthfulness upon us. Truthfulness is a process, and you are violating your responsibility when you say that you literally know what happens to your consciousness when you die.
No, atheism is the belief that there is no God. That's what the word has always meant. You are redefining the term as a 'lack' of belief in God. But this is just semantic obscurantism on your part. I'd rather discuss the substantive issue -- whether or not God exists -- rather than the definition of the word 'atheism'. Let's just not use the word atheism.
Alright, then let's not use the term theism either. You good with that?
Is the belief, "God does nkt exist", true or false? -- that's what should be discussed.
Alright, we can discuss it as soon as you describe what you mean when you say "God". If you define it as YHWH or Allah or Zeus or Odin or An or any other such god personality, then "God does not exist" is clearly a true position. If you define it as something else, then you're going to be misunderstood by the overwhelming majority of humans when you attempt to communicate with them about it. If we can know that using a certain word is going to create confusion (we do), we have to stop using that word and find a better way to communicate the concept behind the word.
As an atheist, I know that all gods ever posited in human mythology are reflections of human thought. Metaphors. As an agnostic, I know I am not equipped to understand the nature of existence. As a human being inheriting the knowledge so hard won throughout human history, I can observe that attaching ourselves to incoherent belief systems has horrific costs. We absolutely must excise the wisdom and insights of religious traditions from their primitive understanding of how the cosmos works. This kills all religion. Maybe eventually we can reclaim words like "religion" and "God". But if we are going to come together as a species and deeply understand the truth of our existence, we will have to stop using them for now.
Atheism is just a convenient word for this position.
Only for those who posit specific gods in the first place.
Now that is rich. Please support this outrageous claim.
Of course atheism is wishful thinking. To know God is to give up your ordinary identity. People don't want to do this. They want to believe that they exist, that they are in control, etc. It's scary at first when you wake up to the knowledge that you exist only as a thought-image inside the mind of something infinitely greater and more powerful than yourself. This knowledge frightens a lot of people. It's something we all know deep down, but refuse to admit to ourselves because it is so terrifying. But it's only scary until we are willing to give up all attachments, and with this comes the knowledge that we are not the thought-image, but the Mind that dreamt it into existence.
Here's where we generally agree, with the exception of your use of the word God. Stop fucking naming it. Talk about it, visualize it, describe it, experience it, but don't fucking name it. To do so is to lose connection with it. The costs of naming this phenomenon of experienced truth have manifested enough throughout history, and at THIS point in history those costs threaten to end the story of humanity. It seems to me that knowing this and doing nothing about it because "chill out man everything is perfect" is itself a monumental failure of compassion.
Please illuminate for us how "today the confirmists tend to be atheists and materialists" and then tell us how this idea applies to the conversation you're participating in.
You would have to be blind not to see that atheistic materialism is the dominant philosophy of modern culture.
Materialism may be *a* dominant habit in modern culture, but you have failed to support your claim. In fact, it seems that you continually refuse to support your claims. Your rhetoric keeps boiling down to "I just know". You clearly don't.
So the god that revealed itself to you was not the "God" Jews/Muslims/Christians/Hindus/etc speak of when they use the term.
The Gods of all religions are the same. The God I experienced was the same God that is spoken of in the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, the Koran, the Vedic scriptures, etc. It is the Tao of Taoism, the Emptiness of Buddhism, the One of Plotinus, the Brahman of Hinduism, the Godhead of Christian mysticism, etc, etc. All religions are one in substance.
Therefore they are all imperfect, and it follows that we must treat them as such. The only way to do so is to leave their specific and demonstrably untrue claims in the category of "fiction", and the only way to do that is to stop allowing each other to believe them in a literal sense.
You were rebelling against the subject of ego, and you then replaced it with yet another subject infected by ego. You failed to transcend.
I don't have an ego.
You continue to fool yourself. Your comments immediately below this all reveal your ego in sharp relief.
Better luck next incarnation.
Oh, I do understand the difference. Atheism is inherently retarded.
You know not that of which you speak.
You have yet to present a coherent argument for the specific claims you have made. It may not be clear to you how upside-down your thinking is, but gladly others seem to be recognizing it and saying so. Perhaps you will allow yourself to listen.
How is that possible as you had no functional brain
Because the brain exists only inside the mind, and mind is nonlocal -- it isn't confined to the brain. Memories are encoded into the very fabric of reality itself.
Either prove it or admit that you're abstracting the definitions of "memory"and "mind" and "encoded"so far as to be metaphorical rather than literal.
and were present in your mothers stomach with no view of the outside world?
I don't have memories of being inside of my mother's "stomach" (lol). I have memories of past lives.
Perhaps, but do you know those lives actually occurred? If so, how? And why are they past lives and not future or contemporaneous lives?
You continue to fail to understand the a priori context of all your experience. Your brain is the vessel through which you experience the data of the cosmos. The claims you are making are simply the manner in which you experienced the data. They cannot be assumed as descriptive of the cosmos unless you can reliably prove the consequences of your description. In short, you're describing your experience and claiming that description to be literally true. Which you simply do not know.
Child hold memories sure as you were living and had functional organs/body parts in order to view and experience and remember said times.
You're starting from false premises, and drawing unsound conclusions from false premise. You start with the assumption that consciousness is solely and entirely a function of brain activity. This is a false assumption. You see, if you start with wrong assumptions, you get wrong conclusions. You're starting with the assumption, "materialism is true". I reject that assumption on philosophical, scientific, and experiential grounds.
That's actually not an assumption that's being made. The assumption that ISN'T being made is that consciousness and subjectivity are the same thing. You are building upon that assumption, either implicitly or explicitly, and it is untenable. joywind is not a consciousness, it is an awareness that arises within a consciousness. joywind is a whirlwind of causes furiously spinning within the container of a human brain. When that human brain dies, so too does that whirlwind. Consciousness itself may indeed persist, but that is not the same thing as saying joywind persists.
It is good that you feel you had them experiences but they are biological not possible due to not being developed enough to experience them. Sorry to dissapoint you. Peoples view on reincarnation as just views and opinions that people have , some will differ but no one really knows. Good to speculate though.
Again, you simply don't know what you are talking about. You have opinions on things that are outside of your experience.
And you are stating experiences that you may have convinced yourself they have happened in your eyes but I am sure you understand the sceptism that you would receive once you have informed people of that? Your opinion is not main stream , nothing suggests to take your experience serious , it is not widespread or a well know happening of any human being I feel you just dreamt it or perhaps have a wild imagination , again which is cool just don't take your serious to serious and appreciate the doubt that you will entail once informing people.
Indeed. joywind's entire context exists in a territory created by a fundamental non sequitur. Knowledge does not directly map with experience. It is absolutely crucial to understand the difference between data (raw experience) and information (interpretation), and joywind has exalted information upon the altar of data.
-
Does anyone believe they can be reincarnated even before they die?
This is a great fucking question. In my own words, I experience reincarnation constantly. It is through this constant reincarnation that my false Self arises. It is through the realization of the falseness of that Self that I can "kill" it and begin a new incarnation from the starting point of that death. Over time a new Self will almost inevitably arise, which can then be "killed" in birth of a new incarnation from the starting point of THAT death[1]. It is in this way that I have come to understand the question "Who am I?" as equivalent to "What should I choose to become?" This works for me, but only if I understand that I don't have the level of control of this that my ego believes it does.
[1] LSD and psilocybin were extremely helpful in revealing this phenomenon to me
-
Does anyone believe they can be reincarnated even before they die?
This is a great fucking question. In my own words, I experience reincarnation constantly. It is through this constant reincarnation that my false Self arises. It is through the realization of the falseness of that Self that I can "kill" it and begin a new incarnation from the starting point of that death. Over time a new Self will almost inevitably arise, which can then be "killed" in birth of a new incarnation from the starting point of THAT death[1]. It is in this way that I have come to understand the question "Who am I?" as equivalent to "What should I choose to become?" This works for me, but only if I understand that I don't have the level of control of this that my ego believes it does.
[1] LSD and psilocybin were extremely helpful in revealing this phenomenon to me
Thanks, you basically summed up how I feel about reincarnation.
Just one question, did u mix LSD and shrooms together when you had this revelation, or did it happen slowly through different trips?
-
Thanks, you basically summed up how I feel about reincarnation.
Just one question, did u mix LSD and shrooms together when you had this revelation, or did it happen slowly through different trips?
My interpretation has slowly come together over the past few years, accelerated by more recent experimentation. In my late teens I took LSD maybe 3 or 4 times, a few years later I did mushrooms once, and lately I have done LSD a few more times. I'm trying to position my mind for a big trip in the near future, but I haven't decided on LSD or mushrooms.
It's only through the mindful, notated approach I took these last few times that I have come to the formulation I just responded with. Not only did I notice the constant recursion (rebirth), I wrote it down as best I could so I could remember and expound upon it later. I can finally begin to see it more reliably through meditation, and I try not to despair when I've "lost" connection with it. I now have the tools to guide myself to plugging back in (or unplugging, however you want to look at it). I've never mixed LSD and mushrooms together. I don't even know what that would do.
-
I have experienced many of the things discussed here previously and I really thank you guys for sharing your own spiritual journeys and insights, those have been really helpful. I just wanted to share few things to make this collective journey more effective and pleasant for all of us.
People here in forums have different levels of understanding, different points of views, but we're all similar in that respect that we want to know (experience) the meaning of it all.
That's the reason why we should be respectful of each other, even when you know others don't know a thing (yet) they must know something and using that something they already know you can support them and let them gently nudge themselves back to THEIR direction if you stand firm (if they have veered off it feels like a support, if they have not then it is considered as an outside pressure and is rightfully fought against) . Simply being aware of that is what makes an average teacher become a great master. Everybody has their own path and tempo, they are all parallel and interlap with each other often but are not the same.
I also used to be an atheist and materialist 8). And there is nothing wrong with being one, I think it's a really important step on your journey, but one shouldn't forget this not where it ends - your journey has just begun. It's a kind of psychosocial puberty where you reject everything what has got you there (the good and the bad).
It's mostly a psychological phase, who's familiar with psychoanalytic thought can see lot of similarities with their concepts of development and how certain feelings are evoked and then dealt with, rejection of gods (parents), however in that phase something really important is created - CRITICAL THINKING. It's the tool we (in a western culture) need the most.
This is why it' is crucial to go through this phase properly, it means going through it by oneself, not to be rushed by outside forces, not to be judged, made fun of, forced to adopt views about how thing "really" are etc (just like with real puberty - care, support, attention).
Once you've mastered it you can now go on and take next step and start to be critical about your current views.
Lot's of things I didn't write here today but I know you knew these already :)
-
When philosopy on religion reincarnation and belief systems are being examined and debated, ConsciousEvolution finds it best to start with facts and then proceed from there to logical conclusions;
Fact; when you are a child you are a blank slate, whatever you're told by your parents is infallable in a childs mind and largely accepted as fact. 99% of the time the child believes what the parents do. If you have parents who believe Hinduism is the ultimate belief, you will believe as well. if you have christian parents you will be a christian.(I speak merely for the child mind, many find their own truth when they are old enough to question such beliefs.)
So starting with the fact that we as children are indoctrinated with any beliefs our parents have given us, and reaffirmed with the dogmas of our holy books churches and our individual religious cultures as a whole, we subject ourselves to ignorance and brainwashed ideology. The ego in fact accepts these things readily; how could my parents be wrong? how could all these other believers be wrong? no way! the ego will not accept that as a possibility. so anything that disproves or discredits the belief system is defeated with the almighty concept of having "Faith." Blind Faith in other mens opinions, dogmatic shells of what can make you a higher being. That being said;
No one with these beliefs has sought out any form of understanding, never questioned the definitions of reality, limited perceptions of consciousness, and has only saught out acceptance via the religious community they are brought up in. Now, this groundwork of the child psyche being laid down i can concisely make my point:
Religious experience through the ritualistic use of Hallucinogenic substance is the opposite of this. There is no indoctrination. there is no dogma. The information coming from these sacred hallucinogenics is Universal Consciousness, realer than real. So naturally those who have never opened the doors of perception and peered into the formless shapeless cosmos of undefined possibility have no fucking clue what its' even about. This level of true human spirituality is so alien and unknown to 99% of modern humans that the mere description is mind boggling to them. What they cannot grasp is that the human mind exists beyond the body, the body is merely like a TV antenna that picks up and experiences consciousness through the 5 senses, meaning the TV does not make the radio waves but rather translates them into something seeable, touchable, hearable, smellable... Not only do we experience limited consciousness, but the ultimate form of ourselves stretches beyond everything you consider yourself to 'be,' or can be defined as. The closest i have ever felt to alive or real was on high doses of LSD Magic Mushrooms Peyote and Mescaline. (Hopefully Ayahuasca by the end of this year...) One is able to see the farce of human existence and the true ultimate reality. Which is we are all one. We are all connected, and we are all just one possible expression of reality.
That in fact is the meaning of life. All life. Expression. To express is why we are here, why we were made, why every blade of grass grows withers and dies in its own unique pattern.
The universe and therefore our consciousness is more infinite and complex than we can fathom within our 4 dimensional world. But at the same time these experiences with sacred hallucinogenics are individual, and cannot be shown to anyone or explained with mere mortal words for that matter. So when you have experiences with past lives, parallel dimensions, beings from other planes of existence, ultimate existence even, there is no way to bring any shred of that back. No way to combat the dogma of ancient religions with thousands of years of manmade 'proof.' When all us modern day LSD Shamans have are our own experiences.
So to the ignorant mind (or maybe we should say unexpanded mind) the idea of going against the religion they are born with is downright terrifying, and out of the question! the mind recoils and closes down at the very thought of itself being wrong. Noooo my religion is the only right one, even though there are thousands of religions, each of which has followers that "know for a fact" theres is the right one... that is the ego implant sucking you into Samsara and endless reincarnation....
People are scared to shake off the opinions of those who have came before them and seek out what truths lay within themselves.
But what opinions you have been taught and believe are your own are truly not. They are the ego wanting to belong. wanting you to stay a talking ape, ever complacent with the regurgitation of others beliefs.
I for one see things objectively. there is fact.. and opinion.... no one who peddles opinions on salvation has your best interest in mind because they too are a puppet in the cosmic puppet show...
Expand your minds and create your own beliefs. Those of you who dont believe in Reincarnation simply have no experience in the subject. at least youre seeking out answers.
My advice would be listen more then you talk. I laugh when i read all these people on here bashing Reincarnation when they have no experience with such matters.... Its like watching a snobbish high school grad disagree with a nuclear physicist about the process of nuclear fission in a matter-of-fact tone... lol
For those of you who get angry or discouraged when the ignorant come on these threads and spout their regurgitated beliefs remember one thing;
"The empty barrel makes the loudest boom."
Peace Love and Expanded Awareness my Friends 8)
On the path to
ConsciousEvolution
-
The information coming from these sacred hallucinogenics is Universal Consciousness, realer than real.
Have to agree with this statement. I remember the first time I did shrooming, some kind of profound understanding of the universe came to me without me having this knowledge before. I was a very different kind of person back then. So I questioned myself if this is just a product of my own thoughts, and I did some research, and found that many many people around the world who has had experienced it also have the same understanding. This convinced me that there is a Universal Consciousness, it is as real as gravity on earth.
-
reincarnation trip experience...1000ug LSD
War... i appear in one, but I have been here a long time and its all i know. I am a soldier fighting. This is real, I know this can't be fake although I do question it for a moment. I don't know who i am, there is no time to figure it out. I am holding an automatic rifle and they are coming. I don't know who. I am in a wooded-plains area, beside blue pillars that took the place of trees. the grass is green and real looking in the plains in front of me. Guys with straw hats, oh no... many of them, 20, 30, closing in about 200 yards away up the small slope of the plain. i look to my left and right. just many blue pillars on a changing green/purple perfectly flat and plastic looking ground.
I have a scope.. and take a look through it at the guys walking fast towards me. its zoom power is strong and i see them clearly. i hold in the trigger and popping sounds float out that gave vibrational disturbances to my visual field. the gun has no kick and i use the scope to knock many down. bullets glowing come towards me about the speed of a car... slowly. i jump behind the pillar. a scratching sound eminates from the blue pillar and it ripples like water on a pond.
"DEATH" i scream. its coming, i know it. my last few moments of existence. "DEATH" i scream as i look out from the pillar and see a few guys closing in. i fire from the hip. i look down and see bullets flying through me. my heart gets knocked out of my chest partially. many more holes pierce through and my guts fall out of my chest and back. I cry frantically and lay down in the brown and pink goo. When is it all going black, I wonder. two men appoach me. They are asian with glowing eyes. These men are the givers of my eternal blackness, and I hate them but am more afraid. One mumbles some kind of goodbye and bullets are fired into my head. It jiggles me around and the scene fades to black. I am not sure, but i think after this "nightmare" i was unconscious for some time... or i don't remember it.
-
...assumption that consciousness is solely and entirely a function of brain activity. This is a false assumption. You see, if you start with wrong assumptions, you get wrong conclusions.
In 300 years, we will look back and say "This belief was perhaps the greatest fallacy of the 20th century. But, oh well, back then they had been brainwashed by the corporal propagandists who wanted a functioning work force. *shrugs*"
And yes, we can fit a lot into a belief system, if we just bend the truth far enough, and manage to ignore the consequences of our truth bending.
Talking about the 16th century: "The belief that the earth is a disk was perhaps the greatest fallacy of the medieval ages. But, oh well, back then the churches' propagandists wanted obedient slaves and this belief system helped them to control the masses."
-
in the 16th century the Muslim knew the earth was round.
-
Do you remember before you were born?
Yes, I have memories of events, people, scenes, etc., that took place before I was born. And not just random images, but the sort of complex formative memories that explain my current personality, just as some of my early childhood memories explain who I am today.
How is that possible as you had no functional brain and were present in your mothers stomach with no view of the outside world? Your view on what you think you experienced is skewed and not correct and do not take it serious as it is not accurate. Child hold memories sure as you were living and had functional organs/body parts in order to view and experience and remember said times.
It is good that you feel you had them experiences but they are biological not possible due to not being developed enough to experience them. Sorry to dissapoint you. Peoples view on reincarnation as just views and opinions that people have , some will differ but no one really knows. Good to speculate though.
The Human Body loses 21 grams of weight at the exact moment of Death.
in the 16th century the Muslim knew the earth was round.
The most recent archeological findings in the United States contest written history. Celts, Brits, Asian, and Norse were in North America hundreds, if not thousands of years before Columbus "discovered" it. Eskimos(North Americans) look an awful lot like Asians. But kind of like Native Americans. Hmmmmm....
But you're right. It WAS the Muslims who 'figured it out' for us all, in the 16th Century. lol
-
Do you remember before you were born?
The Human Body loses 21 grams of weight at the exact moment of Death.
That is actually a myth, the experiment that claimed to prove it was poorly done.
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2004/05/13/1105956.htm
-
Do you remember before you were born?
The Human Body loses 21 grams of weight at the exact moment of Death.
That is actually a myth, the experiment that claimed to prove it was poorly done.
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2004/05/13/1105956.htm
I don't think it would be fair to call it a myth; more a speculation based on weird science. The only possibility is that the guy himself lied about the results; otherwise, if his results are true, then the human body 'tends' to lose weight on, or around the moment of death. Whereas a dog does not lose any weight @ its moment of death.
When the legend becomes fact, print the legend. That's how history works...