Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: fumanchu on December 26, 2012, 11:04 pm
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If I were to message SR and ask them if they could lower my buyer stats, do you think they would?
Sorry to be paranoid, but I've done a lot of business I'm here and I'm worried if LE bust this thing, my statistics might be high enough to attract attention.
If I cant have them lowered, can I have them delete the account? I've been here over a year, and I'm getting worried... unfortunately every time I come here now I get crazy sketchy vibes.... like you know who is sitting behind the other side of this computer :( I'm straight up freaked out and I'm starting to think that maybe my time here should come to an end real real soon. My guts telling me something, and I don't wanna just throw that away.... cause if I do, I could be sitting in a jail cell for a long time regretting not listening to my instincts.
If this shit goes awry , whats the consensus here guys? Whats most likely to happen? How is it gonna happen? What happens to buyers? Vendors? It's pretty much agreed upon that if someone has the resources (like LE) then they could find out who you are anyways behind the shroud of Tor and PGP right?
You think we as buyers (unfortunately I've bought a lot) are just gonna walk if this were to go down? How big is this now, do we have any reliable figures as to how many people are on SR? If its as big as I think it is, is it even possible to coordinate a bust to get every one of us? I seriously doubt that. They would have to settle for some and I'm not sure if/how they draw that line..
Let me hear some opinions guys. I need a discussion with other people who participate in SR. If you've got nothing better to do, please take a minute of your time and tell me how you feel about this stuff.
thanks guys
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If you are a buyer that deals with good vendors the only weak link in the chain is you and packages in transit. There is always the chance that a package will be opened and a controlled delivery done. The question is what evidence is there if this happens? what is at your house... IMO this is safer than street buying and selling. Vendors that glove up and use hair nets for packaging. alternate post offices etc.. have little chance of being busted. I wouldnt think of TOR or PGP being breached as the thing that will bring you down. It will be a controlled delivery or bad vendor that kept your address. That said. If you PGP everything you have no problem if the place is compromised. If you are paranoid alternate accounts every 4 months.
ACE
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start a new account, they're free
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Obviously I could just create a new account, but the purchases I make on here are a few thousand dollars each... I've done this many many times, which is why I'm worried about my buyer stats to begin with. I have a very large amount of money spent on this site.
If I were to make a new account, I'd have to fuck around with a few small bullshit purchases first to even get my credibility and buyer stats back up.... Nobody is going to accept an order for $4,000 from a new buyer with no stats. The reason I want them lowered as opposed to just starting a new account, is so I can keep SOME of my purchasing stats and continue to place orders that are a few grand each...
Plus, the vendors I do business with all know me by my current account and often times I get hooked up on orders considering the amount of money I'm spending and how much business I've done with these people in the past... If I make a new account, I have to start from scratch and work my way all the way up again and I'm really not trying to do that if possible.
If I could somehow message SR and have them remove maybe 50 purchases and 40k or so from my buyer stats, that would be ideal... Then I could continue using my same account (which my vendors all know me by) and still be able to make large purchases without having to FE or any of that bullshit. I just don't know if this is possible, or if SR staff would be willing to do this?
Any ideas?
And lets say the site gets busted, and they go after the owner/operators of it.... do all the buyers just walk? No charges? It's impossible for them to arrest the tens of thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of buyers associated with this site.... Is there any way (if they busted the site) they could trace back individual accounts (which I'm sure are stored on the site somewhere) to the IP address and location they are used from?
How do they go about choosing who gets charged and who doesnt? Like I said above, can they even arrest people with buyer accounts? I'm thinking itd be way too hard and time/resource consuming for them to go after buyers... I feel like bigger vendors and all the site admin would be the first targets, but would they stop at that and let the rest of us buyers go?
I'm worried that being a buyer who has done tens of thousands of dollars of business on here, and pushing 100 purchases might attract their attention?
Am I just way to paranoid? Should I put down this weed and quit rambling?
prolly.
just wondering where you guys are at with this....
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Obviously I could just create a new account, but the purchases I make on here are a few thousand dollars each... I've done this many many times, which is why I'm worried about my buyer stats to begin with. I have a very large amount of money spent on this site.
If I were to make a new account, I'd have to fuck around with a few small bullshit purchases first to even get my credibility and buyer stats back up.... Nobody is going to accept an order for $4,000 from a new buyer with no stats. The reason I want them lowered as opposed to just starting a new account, is so I can keep SOME of my purchasing stats and continue to place orders that are a few grand each...
Plus, the vendors I do business with all know me by my current account and often times I get hooked up on orders considering the amount of money I'm spending and how much business I've done with these people in the past... If I make a new account, I have to start from scratch and work my way all the way up again and I'm really not trying to do that if possible.
If I could somehow message SR and have them removed maybe 50 purchases and 40k or so from my buyer stats, that would be ideal... Then I could continue using my same account (which my vendors all know me by) and still be able to make large purchases without having to FE or any of that bullshit. I just don't know if this is possible, or if SR staff would be willing to do this?
Any ideas?
And lets say the site gets busted, and they go after the owner/operators of it.... do all the buyers just walk? No charges? It's impossible for them to arrest the tens of thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of buyers associated with this site.... Is there any way (if they busted the site) they could trace back individual accounts (which I'm sure are stored on the site somewhere) to the IP address and location they are used from?
How do they go about choosing who gets charged and who doesnt? Like I said above, can they even arrest people with buyer accounts? I'm thinking itd be way too hard and time/resource consuming for them to go after buyers... I feel like bigger vendors and all the site admin would be the first targets, but would they stop at that and let the rest of us buyers go?
I'm worried that being a buyer who has done tens of thousands of dollars of business on here, and pushing 100 purchases might attract their attention?
Am I just way to paranoid? Should I put down this weed and quit rambling?
prolly.
just wondering where you guys are at with this....
Idea:
Open a couple of new accounts.
Start using these new accounts and building cred while you still have the old account.
Whenever you come on to buy from your existing account, also buy something (whatever quantity newbs are restricted to) from the new accounts.
When the new accounts are seasoned, then abandon the problematic account.
Always be seasoning a new account, eh?
You asked if you are way too paranoid. Maybe. Maybe not. I don't have shit for buyer stats but you just added something to my bank of SR knowledge, something to think about. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be on top of any kind of list, biggest buyer, whatever. Not liking that at all. Good luck ☮
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Message the vendors you are really close to any see if they believe that you're using a different account? They'll know you're telling the truth if you know the same address and stuff
idk, could work!
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Is there any way (if they busted the site) they could trace back individual accounts (which I'm sure are stored on the site somewhere) to the IP address and location they are used from?
No, that's what Tor is for. They could try to link SR bitcoin addresses back to the point of purchase, though.
How do they go about choosing who gets charged and who doesnt? Like I said above, can they even arrest people with buyer accounts? I'm thinking itd be way too hard and time/resource consuming for them to go after buyers... I feel like bigger vendors and all the site admin would be the first targets, but would they stop at that and let the rest of us buyers go?
I suspect they would go after the biggest sellers and buyers, and start with the low hanging fruit -- the people who have unencrypted addresses stored on the server at the time of the bust.
I doubt there's much of a distinction between seller and buyer. The top buyers on the site are also sellers, just locally. There are buyers with more purchases than some sellers have sales. Someone buying $10,000 worth of drugs a month would probably be a bigger target than someone with sales totaling a few hundred dollars a month.
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Ive actually been thinking along similar lines recently..
Is there any way (if they busted the site) they could trace back individual accounts (which I'm sure are stored on the site somewhere) to the IP address and location they are used from?
No, that's what Tor is for. They could try to link SR bitcoin addresses back to the point of purchase, though.
Firstly, the OP is correct in assuming that should LE wish trace users frequenting a particular hidden service (especially if they happen to have control of said service), it would be trivial to do so given a moderate amount of resources. kfmkewm describes the technical details of this attack (which have also been discussed somewhere on torproject.org) in this thread: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=95305.msg676209#msg676209
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That being said if the entire operation is indeed compromised, OP's misgivings are somewhat warranted. As has been discussed above, however, these LE agencies have limited resources in the form of both money, as well as manpower. I read in some article that in the UK LE is only able to pursue some 1% of all drug cases they get so they only go after the most active or "dangerous" dealers. This is not directly related to this situation, as the figure was from an unrelated article about the UK drug scene, but I imagine the bureaucratic situation is the same or similar in the US and these agencies are seriously resource constrained.
My thinking was more on whether it would be possible for LE to set up a system whereby a number of Vendor and Buyer accounts are set up or acquired by LE representatives and then used to lure large legitimate buyers into placing orders. They could build the Vendor accounts' stats and community trust by using the Buyer accounts to place "orders" for products advertised by the Vendor accounts. There would have to be some transfer of money to legitimize the "purchase" and LE would lose 5% as SR commissions on each transaction, but the money would be coming from and going right back to LE so there would not be a significant cost to do this. After the LE-controlled vendors have built enough trust they could potentially solicit higher quantity orders to attract larger buyers, as anyone ordering some of the larger quantities available on this site could ONLY be reselling the drugs locally or online. At the very least, this would provide LE with mere DROP addresses (which of course could have been established using false identification with no trail back to the actual person) of a number of large local dealers in major parts of the country. Assuming the dealers are relatively adept at countersurveillance, this should not be a significant issue for them and would only result in losing access to this particular drop. However, I have a sneaking suspicion that a number of these SR buyers would not be skilled enough at countersurveillance to prevent being picked up when they go to retrieve the order from the drop. Also I would imagine most would only be using one dedicated drop and may even be receiving to their real name and address which would make it even easier for them to be arrested. If my reasoning is correct, these scenarios could have a significant impact on the entire drug supply situation in US. I would wager that IF these arrests happened, most of the individuals arrested would flip on their local IRL contacts, who are doing most of the small time distribution in the area, to try to receive a lesser sentence. If LE could leverage these SR busts to gain detailed intel on local regional distribution networks, I believe they could mop up a large portion of the supply for more common drugs in most regions of the US.
What are peoples' opinion on my theorized scenario? Am I way off base here? I would particularly appreciate kfmkewm's input as his article on Polyfront regarding intelligence gathering by LE prompted this thinking originally. I havent read it recently but I believe he posits that most law enforcement intelligence gathering operations move UP networks (ie leveraging small time busts or arrests to compromise individuals higher in the network), and it got me to thinking about potential weaknesses in the system SR uses that could be used to compromise networks from the top down.
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The short answer: No.
The long answer: The right amount of currency will buy you almost anything, you having that amount is doubtful.
Also my stats do not represent my illegal drug purchases solely, many things I buy are legal just not sold in my general area.
I could purchase them on amazon,ebay or any number of clearnet sites, but my freedom of choice is to spend imaginary currency a smart Japanese man invented and a marketplace DPR has provided to exchange goods to exercise my freedom of choice.
Silk Road isn't a drug marketplace though media has depicted it this way. The more diverse the marketplace gets to stronger the revolution grows, why the majority use it as a drug marketplace is none of my business, but it seems ppl chose it because currency is generated faster and larger because governments try to control ppl's choices, which only creates a lust for the freedom taken away.
I suggest to everyone that does not have a vendor account to think about a niche product that they can easily acquire and vend it here for btcs.
This will aide the revolution and break the chains around many personal issues like lack of money because of decent paying jobs the governments have squandered away for their own countries people and various other personal situations.
Think smarter not harder.
X)
nomad
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Nomad that's great in theory but LE doesn't think that logically and neither does the court system. Your logic is kind of like saying, "Hey man I'm just the get away driver, I didn't rob anything all I did was drive a car". It's a guilty by association type thing.
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I suggest to everyone that does not have a vendor account to think about a niche product that they can easily acquire and vend it here for btcs.
The $500 fee makes it uneconomical for one time and small time vendors, and legal goods sold on SR will cost more because of exchange and SR fees. Not to mention, most people won't go to the trouble of buying products off SR that they can readily get through traditional channels. They're not thinking about a "revolution".
So it's a nice thought, but not practical.
Edit: Now if SR was willing to waive the fees, both the signup fee and commission, for legal goods, that might work. Why should they allow people to vend for free? Because like you said, it legitimizes the market and protects the whole community.
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Nomad that's great in theory but LE doesn't think that logically and neither does the court system. Your logic is kind of like saying, "Hey man I'm just the get away driver, I didn't rob anything all I did was drive a car". It's a guilty by association type thing.
I understand that I am an except to the rule but I was merely using this topic to spark some motivation and plant seeds in random members to exercise this freedom we currently have to think outside the box presented and be proactive rather than look for an easy out. It's fairly common sense that if you have spent over 500btc on larger than personal amounts of illegal items in your country to make a new buyer account and move on, it's easy to get a positive stats on a new account dozens of new members do it everyday. Logically before you drop one buyer account you send out encrypted messages to your top vendors and let them know you are starting a new account to dissociate your stats from a single account.
AMIRITE or simply a madman?
;)
nomad
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Nomad that's great in theory but LE doesn't think that logically and neither does the court system. Your logic is kind of like saying, "Hey man I'm just the get away driver, I didn't rob anything all I did was drive a car". It's a guilty by association type thing.
I understand that I am an except to the rule but I was merely using this topic to spark some motivation and plant seeds in random members to exercise this freedom we currently have to think outside the box presented and be proactive rather than look for an easy out. It's fairly common sense that if you have spent over 500btc on larger than personal amounts of illegal items in your country to make a new buyer account and move on, it's easy to get a positive stats on a new account dozens of new members do it everyday. Logically before you drop one buyer account you send out encrypted messages to your top vendors and let them know you are starting a new account to dissociate your stats from a single account.
AMIRITE or simply a madman?
;)
nomad
I would agree with you.. confirming that it is you would be a simple matter of sending a pgp signed message to the vendor with the new account information.
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My thinking was more on whether it would be possible for LE to set up a system whereby a number of Vendor and Buyer accounts are set up or acquired by LE representatives and then used to lure large legitimate buyers into placing orders. They could build the Vendor accounts' stats and community trust by using the Buyer accounts to place "orders" for products advertised by the Vendor accounts. There would have to be some transfer of money to legitimize the "purchase" and LE would lose 5% as SR commissions on each transaction, but the money would be coming from and going right back to LE so there would not be a significant cost to do this. After the LE-controlled vendors have built enough trust they could potentially solicit higher quantity orders to attract larger buyers, as anyone ordering some of the larger quantities available on this site could ONLY be reselling the drugs locally or online. At the very least, this would provide LE with mere DROP addresses (which of course could have been established using false identification with no trail back to the actual person) of a number of large local dealers in major parts of the country. Assuming the dealers are relatively adept at countersurveillance, this should not be a significant issue for them and would only result in losing access to this particular drop. However, I have a sneaking suspicion that a number of these SR buyers would not be skilled enough at countersurveillance to prevent being picked up when they go to retrieve the order from the drop. Also I would imagine most would only be using one dedicated drop and may even be receiving to their real name and address which would make it even easier for them to be arrested. If my reasoning is correct, these scenarios could have a significant impact on the entire drug supply situation in US. I would wager that IF these arrests happened, most of the individuals arrested would flip on their local IRL contacts, who are doing most of the small time distribution in the area, to try to receive a lesser sentence. If LE could leverage these SR busts to gain detailed intel on local regional distribution networks, I believe they could mop up a large portion of the supply for more common drugs in most regions of the US.
Of course this assumes the SR buyers have access to distribution network middlemen with sufficient network contacts to make them viable dealers in the area. In addition they must be skilled enough to avoid retaliation by existing local distributors.
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If you are buying that much then I suggest you create a new account every few weeks.
You can use a single PGP identity to prove to your facvorite vendors who you are by signing your messages. Since they will also be encrypted to the vendor's public key the silk road itself will not be able to tell you are the same person. This way you don't have to worry about low stats.
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To Address Nomad Bloodbath's ideals, perhaps a second tier market, like a SR lite. Charges lower vendor startup fee but slightly higher SR fees. No possibility for early finalization and all vendors must use tracking.
That would attract small time vendors and dissuade the simple scammers.