Silk Road forums

Discussion => Shipping => Topic started by: thisaintme on August 02, 2012, 10:07 pm

Title: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: thisaintme on August 02, 2012, 10:07 pm
My good friend owns a breeding kennel for one the dogs most used by customs and police for tracking substances, money, people and whatever. Recently he got there a new "stud dog" that was retired from police :). It is specially trained for drug sniffings and served 5 years, busted out many not-so-bright people :P

So we bought a vacuum machine + some weed, amphetamine, cocaine and mdma. We tried single vacuum, double vacuum and triple vacuum. Each layer was rubbed with alcohol and different gloves were used to pack the stuff in and for other handling. Packaging was done in different premises with different clothing on.

If it did not get it at 1st time, we tried several different time spans for same packages to see if they start to leak the smell. All of these "experiments" were done twice to get constant data (Yes, I like Mythbusters!). I will post more results in few days, I still have the same packages we used.

I am not sure if I have mentioned my home country in some of my previous messages, propably yes but just in case, it is a place with notorious customs in Scandinavia :).
Weed:
1 layer, 15 mins both times
2 layers, 12 hours 1st, 3 days 2nd
3 layers: not after 48 hours, but got after 5 days. 2nd was not detected after 5 days.

Amfetamine:
No reaction at all to any packages in vacuumsafter 5 days. No reaction to speed in plastic bag either. I think it may have something to do with the speed itself, the stuff that is mostly sold here is totally different than the "ducth paste" we used. Our stuff origins from Baltic countries and Russia, they use different precursos and methods.

Cocaine:
After 5 days no reaction to any package. Obviously he still knows it´s coke and a no-no, he found three stashes in plastic bags with no problems.

MDMA:
Dog went wild on this, I think it was his favourite:
1 layer: both 15 min
2 layer: 1st 15min, 2nd 1 hour
3 layers: 1st not after 5 days, 2nd after 24 hours.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: bludsrevenge on August 02, 2012, 10:20 pm
Thank you for this much needed service. helps allot with my paranoia
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: bludsrevenge on August 03, 2012, 01:06 am
What kind of sealer/bags did u use?
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Zulu on August 03, 2012, 02:47 am
Thanks for the info, but I am a little unclear

When you say

Weed:
1 layer, 15 mins both times
2 layers, 12 hours 1st, 3 days 2nd
3 layers: not after 48 hours, but got after 5 days. 2nd was not detected after 5 days.

Do you mean when using 1 layer it took the dog 15 minutes to find it?
2 layers it took the dog 12 hours?

Also same with

Cocaine:
After 5 days no reaction to any package. Obviously he still knows it´s coke and a no-no, he found three stashes in plastic bags with no problems.

Do you mean you left it in the package for 5 days and then sent the dog? also you saying he had no reaction but the dog knows its a no-no??

Sorry but im just confused, I appreciate the info, just want some clarity  8)

Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: thisaintme on August 03, 2012, 03:40 am
the weed was in package for 15 minutes, then it was hidden among other things. also cocaine had been 5 days in same package, then hidden. this was to test if the packages start to leak smell outside. dog did not smell the cocaine through vacuum package even it was there for 5 days. but when it was in ziplock bag he found it right away.

it came quite clear that vacuum packages do leak smell outside in time.

Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: nobleking on August 03, 2012, 03:56 am
VERY AWESOME!! I had head vac seal will eventually leak enough for dog to smell after some time! good to know that exact method works, but I don't believe hardly any weed vendors actually use gloves and/or clean each layer with alcohol after they seal it. If any do, I haven't heard or seen it on their pages. I would assume they would advertise that! Another think is really big issue now is the heat. its obvious heat will increase the smell of weed, and being shipped on extremely hot trucks and other hot areas/equipment. I would love to know if you used those variables on your experiment if you would get different reaction! Also what amount of weed did you use, I would think the a gram would greatly differ from an oz or qp! those are more realistic environments that our packages go tho each time. btw I am not dogging the way you did at all!! I just wouldn't  want any false positives that could get around that would cause vendors to relax about the smell of shipments! I know their has to be a fool proof way if we all put our ideas together, and do experiments like you have done and other test, then we could find it! trial and error right? great to get failures done like this way in controlled environment! again Bravo guys!
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: raven92 on August 03, 2012, 03:58 am
the weed was in package for 15 minutes, then it was hidden among other things. also cocaine had been 5 days in same package, then hidden. this was to test if the packages start to leak smell outside. dog did not smell the cocaine through vacuum package even it was there for 5 days. but when it was in ziplock bag he found it right away.

it came quite clear that vacuum packages do leak smell outside in time.

There has been speculation that Mylar should be superior to vacuum packaging, any chance you could give vacuum package inside of a mylar bag a shot?
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: nobleking on August 03, 2012, 04:05 am
the weed was in package for 15 minutes, then it was hidden among other things. also cocaine had been 5 days in same package, then hidden. this was to test if the packages start to leak smell outside. dog did not smell the cocaine through vacuum package even it was there for 5 days. but when it was in ziplock bag he found it right away.

it came quite clear that vacuum packages do leak smell outside in time.

There has been speculation that Mylar should be superior to vacuum packaging, any chance you could give vacuum package inside of a mylar bag a shot?
[/quote

Yea, btw what exactly is mylar or what is the differences in  the two?  I think I recieved one package with it, bc it was like think plastic brown bag then inside was a thinner layer, was that it? lol
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: raven92 on August 03, 2012, 04:10 am
the weed was in package for 15 minutes, then it was hidden among other things. also cocaine had been 5 days in same package, then hidden. this was to test if the packages start to leak smell outside. dog did not smell the cocaine through vacuum package even it was there for 5 days. but when it was in ziplock bag he found it right away.

it came quite clear that vacuum packages do leak smell outside in time.

There has been speculation that Mylar should be superior to vacuum packaging, any chance you could give vacuum package inside of a mylar bag a shot?

Yea, btw what exactly is mylar or what is the differences in  the two?  I think I recieved one package with it, bc it was like think plastic brown bag then inside was a thinner layer, was that it? lol

Mylar bags are made of various things, usually layers of polymers and foil. Used a lot in long term food storage, used in things like Ready Meals for the Army. I'm sure you've seen mylar balloons before as well, you know the ones they fill with helium that are in weird shapes?
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: nobleking on August 03, 2012, 04:40 am

the weed was in package for 15 minutes, then it was hidden among other things. also cocaine had been 5 days in same package, then hidden. this was to test if the packages start to leak smell outside. dog did not smell the cocaine through vacuum package even it was there for 5 days. but when it was in ziplock bag he found it right away.

it came quite clear that vacuum packages do leak smell outside in time.

There has been speculation that Mylar should be superior to vacuum packaging, any chance you could give vacuum package inside of a mylar bag a shot?
[/quote

Yea, btw what exactly is mylar or what is the differences in  the two?  I think I recieved one package with it, bc it was like think plastic brown bag then inside was a thinner layer, was that it? lol

Mylar bags are made of various things, usually layers of polymers and foil. Used a lot in long term food storage, used in things like Ready Meals for the Army. I'm sure you've seen mylar balloons before as well, you know the ones they fill with helium that are in weird shapes?

Ah, I pretty sure were on the same page now! and I would agree that type of material should be better! I might look for vendor that uses that now! but an experiment would work too! wink wink;)
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: sqlinjection on August 03, 2012, 04:49 am
Thanks for this valuable information!

I was wondering if you'd be able to test metal-laminate bags (as suggested by some posters to be more secure than vacuum-seal plastic) with a 5mm heat-sealer:

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Static/Home/ProductCatalog/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GDE40I2KG4TI91816000000_nid=D946WGPBNTbeCHW1NDTH4Zgl

I believe it was Farmer Bob (I might be wrong) who has suggested that whereas the plastic used in vacuum-sealing is porous (and as evidenced by your test the negative atmospheric pressure differential is not enough to prevent complete diffusion of particles through the plastic membrane), moisture barrier bags lined with metal are a better choice for shipping.

I'm curious to see if this is true and I'm sure others are as well.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: GermanShepard2 on August 03, 2012, 05:48 am
Thanks for this valuable information!

I was wondering if you'd be able to test metal-laminate bags (as suggested by some posters to be more secure than vacuum-seal plastic) with a 5mm heat-sealer:

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Static/Home/ProductCatalog/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GDE40I2KG4TI91816000000_nid=D946WGPBNTbeCHW1NDTH4Zgl

I believe it was Farmer Bob (I might be wrong) who has suggested that whereas the plastic used in vacuum-sealing is porous (and as evidenced by your test the negative atmospheric pressure differential is not enough to prevent complete diffusion of particles through the plastic membrane), moisture barrier bags lined with metal are a better choice for shipping.

I'm curious to see if this is true and I'm sure others are as well.

I'm with him on this one. Anyway you can test these? I ask because I've ordered from FarmerBob using those bags a couple times.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: thisaintme on August 03, 2012, 11:35 am
i did not scale the packages but the weights were something around 15-20 grams weed, 3-5 grams speed, coke and mdma.

all packages were in 15 to 25 celcius all the time. interesting point that i did not take into consideration. maybe we will try freezing (air mail) and higher temperatures (land mail) to see what it does.

i can try to get some mylar bags and other interesting looking packaking material for experimenting. after all this is very interesting and lots of fun :D
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: brutusk on August 03, 2012, 08:16 pm
yes, I am curious to see how temperature affects these results.  I'm also wondering what a fourth layer of vac seal might add to the time.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: nobleking on August 03, 2012, 08:58 pm
yes, I am curious to see how temperature affects these results.  I'm also wondering what a fourth layer of vac seal might add to the time.

 I second that! very curious!
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Limetless on August 03, 2012, 10:08 pm
Very interesting indeed.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: thisaintme on August 03, 2012, 11:55 pm
one set of bags is in the freezer waiting for sunday. i will take it out 24 hours before the test.

other bags get  a trip to sauna to see how heat and humidity affects the package. my guess is that the weed will reek like no tomorrow.

i am running out of drugs to set up the 4-layer test so i have to wait ´till i get the 1st ones unpacked :)
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: nobleking on August 04, 2012, 01:52 am
Awesome! Keep us informed please!  :D
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: oscarzululondon on August 04, 2012, 02:14 am
I call bullshit on this.

Just because we dumbfuck humans can't tell when a smell such as weed is overpowered with alcohol doesn't mean a dog can't. Infact a dog can smell cancer within the human body, which means they can definitely smell your MDMA from 100 layers of "vacuumed wrapping".

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dog+smell+cancer&oq=dog+smell+cancer&sugexp=chrome,mod=6&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The fact you can get delivery successfully through most postal services and via customs is pure luck. It's a percentages game based on government finances and voter expectations.


My good friend owns a breeding kennel for one the dogs most used by customs and police for tracking substances, money, people and whatever. Recently he got there a new "stud dog" that was retired from police :). It is specially trained for drug sniffings and served 5 years, busted out many not-so-bright people :P

So we bought a vacuum machine + some weed, amphetamine, cocaine and mdma. We tried single vacuum, double vacuum and triple vacuum. Each layer was rubbed with alcohol and different gloves were used to pack the stuff in and for other handling. Packaging was done in different premises with different clothing on.

If it did not get it at 1st time, we tried several different time spans for same packages to see if they start to leak the smell. All of these "experiments" were done twice to get constant data (Yes, I like Mythbusters!). I will post more results in few days, I still have the same packages we used.

I am not sure if I have mentioned my home country in some of my previous messages, propably yes but just in case, it is a place with notorious customs in Scandinavia :).
Weed:
1 layer, 15 mins both times
2 layers, 12 hours 1st, 3 days 2nd
3 layers: not after 48 hours, but got after 5 days. 2nd was not detected after 5 days.

Amfetamine:
No reaction at all to any packages in vacuumsafter 5 days. No reaction to speed in plastic bag either. I think it may have something to do with the speed itself, the stuff that is mostly sold here is totally different than the "ducth paste" we used. Our stuff origins from Baltic countries and Russia, they use different precursos and methods.

Cocaine:
After 5 days no reaction to any package. Obviously he still knows it´s coke and a no-no, he found three stashes in plastic bags with no problems.

MDMA:
Dog went wild on this, I think it was his favourite:
1 layer: both 15 min
2 layer: 1st 15min, 2nd 1 hour
3 layers: 1st not after 5 days, 2nd after 24 hours.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Delta11 on August 04, 2012, 02:47 am
for once oscar is actually not full of bs http://www.barksar.org/K-9_Detection_Capabilities.pdf
I agree, dogs can smell molecules so no matter how many times you vacuum seal a single molecule will leak out and the dog will detect it which is why if you ship international you should come up with better packaging methods.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: thisaintme on August 04, 2012, 11:05 am
yes, dogs can smell incredibly small things and i know only one molecule is enough - in theory.

in practice it´s a different thing; they don´t have unlimited time, they are not always near the source of smell, something else might get their attention. this is more about at which point the odours leak so much outside that they can be detected easily.

if the one single molecule would always be enough there would be no lost people, no hidden corpses, no drug smuggling, no crime scene runners, nothing that could be tracked with a dog would be unfound.

don´t take this too seriously, this is more of a fun test just out of interest to get even some idea if different amount of vacuum layers really matter, rather than a hard-on scientific approach :).
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: f1k4sDfsSfkLs987881 on August 04, 2012, 11:32 am
amazing thread! how cool! +1 author!
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: bludsrevenge on August 04, 2012, 03:42 pm
Thisaintme is right If dogs could smell as well as we seem to be assuming than they could in theory find anything.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: bludsrevenge on August 04, 2012, 03:43 pm
which they cant
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: pine on August 04, 2012, 04:03 pm
Cross Posting this because it's important.

--

This is interesting, although i've never heard of HDPP, I assume you meant HDPE? But if its HDPE you can't use HDPE's for hermetic sealing that i'm aware of, and I'd guess HDPP would just be referring to PP. I've seen people suggesting using mylar bags, which would make quite a bit of sense, even in the food communities Mylar is far superior for long term storage.

Do you have more information on this or a link?

Sorry for the delay. Here is the link and the quoted bits I think relevant to us.

I was talking about polypropylene vs polyethylene, they are quite different.

Macias, Michael S., "The Development of an Optimized System of Narcotic and Explosive Contraband Mimics for Calibration and Training of Biological Detectors" (2009). FIU Electronic Theses and Dissertations. Paper 123.

http://digitalcommons.fiu.edu/etd/123

Quote
[Pine Note: The organization of the study into permeation rates]

3.4.1. Controlled Odor Mimic Permeation System (COMPS)
The chemical compounds used as odor mimic were prepared for presentation to canines
according to the physical appearance of the compounds. Solid compounds were weighed
to various amounts and heat sealed within a polymer bags. Liquid compounds were
spiked onto 2in x 2in sterile gauze pads and heat sealed within LDPE bags. The solid
amounts varied from 5mg to 2g and liquid amounts varied from 1mL to 5mL. The
polymer bags that were used included 3in x 3in 1.5mil, 2mil, 3mil, 4mil LDPE and 2mil
HDPP. The COMPS device was then heat sealed and stored within an aluminized Kapak
bag. Negative controls were created by with blank media (i.e. blank gauze, empty
polymer bags, and blank tea candles).

3.4.2. Permeation of Odor Compounds
Once the COMPS were prepared, they were monitored (weighed) over the course of
twenty-one days to determine the mass loss per time, i.e. the permeation rate through the
polymer bags. At the conclusion of the weighing process, the data was plotted as mass vs.
time. Each sample was made-up in triplicate for statistical purposes. The plotted results
of average mass loss vs. time in days allowed for a calculation of permeation rate and
half-life for each odor compounds through the polymer bags. Empty bags were also heat
sealed and kept in the same environment to use as control samples. These controls
were made in triplicate blanks were kept and monitored concurrently to maintain
a baseline.

[Pine Note: On the two different types of plastic used in the study]

Polymers:

Polyethylene:

Polyethylene is the most commonly encountered polymer used to date. Among its many
commercial uses include items such as grocery bags, shampoo bottles, children's toys,
and even bullet proof vests. The simplest structure of all commercial polymers,
polyethylene, is comprised of a long chain of carbon atoms with two hydrogen atoms
attached to each carbon atom (Figure 11). The structure is referred to as a linear
polyethylene or high-density polyethylene (HDPE).

Figure 11 - Polymer Structures [Pine Note: Look at the jpeg in the document]

Within this simple structure, variations/mutations can occur. One mutation consists of the
substitution of additional polyethylene chains in place of the hydrogens (Figure 12).
Referred to as branching, the substitution occurs in low-density polyethylene (LDPE).
LDPE has a lower tensile strength and higher ductility than HDPE. While linear
polyethylene offers a more rigid structure (i.e. it is much stronger), branched
polyethylene is less expensive and easier to make than linear polyethylene.

Polypropylene:

Polypropylene is a versatile polymer that serves as both a plastic and as a fiber. As a
plastic it is used to make things such as dishwasher-safe food containers. Polypropylene
does not melt below 160oC, unlike polyethylene which anneals at 100oC causing dishes to
warp in a dishwasher. As a fiber, polypropylene is used to make indoor-outdoor
carpeting. Because it is easy to color and resistant to water, it is often seen around pools
and miniature-golf courses.

--

[Pine Note: How they used the dogs as part of the study.]

3.4.3. Field Trials
Field trials were performed with trained and certified local law enforcement explosive
detection canine teams and drug detection canine teams. The odor aids were presented to
the canines in metal scent/electrical boxes, Sigma PseudoTM Scent Cages, or quart paint
cans. Prior to use, the presentation vessels were cleaned with soap, rinsed with water, and
placed in an oven set to 110ºC for a minimum of 12 hours. After preparation, the odor
samples were presented to the canines in an “odor line-up” by placing the samples on the
floor approximately one meter apart (Figure 15). The handlers were instructed to work
with their detection canines to detail each sample in the line-up utilizing their normal
search pattern. The handlers had no previous knowledge of the compounds or order of
placement in the line-up. Additionally, there was no marking on the containers to indicate
the contents. A positive control and negative control were included in the odor line-ups.
The positive control was an actual explosive sample provided by the police agency at the
time of testing. The negative control was an object from the ambient environment used
for the trial. Forty-three certified drug detection canines and twenty certified explosive detection
canines participated in this study. Field test attendance varied from three to ten canines at
any given test. For data collection, analysis, and result reporting purposes, each canine
was assigned an individual three digit identification code. The code system also groups
the canine teams into the explosive or drug detection category.

[Pine Note: Finally the Paragraph that has us excited about HDPP's potential]:

As expected, the permeation rate is affected by the thickness of the LDPE bags (Table
15). The thinner the polymer bag, the faster the permeation rate (250ng/sec for 1.5mil
bag); conversely, the thicker the polymer bag, the slower the permeation rate (142ng/sec
for 4mil bag). The low density form means that there is less organization to the
polyethylene structure because of branching (see section 2.5). This branching creates
gaps, and the larger gaps, the easier it is for the compounds to pass through the polymer.
Thicker polyethylene does not necessarily equate to a more structured form, but it does
provide a thicker weave of polyethylene branches through which the compound must
pass. The increased time the compound spends passing though the polymer matrix
reduces the permeation rate of the compound. Permeation through the HDPP bag was
substantially lower than the thickest LDPE bags (19ng/sec vs. 142ng/s). The reduction in
permeation rate can be explained though the nature of a high density polymer and the
polypropylene structure. The rigidity of the isotactic blocks found in polypropylene
coupled with the high linearity characteristic of the high density form greatly reduces the
available openings the compound to pass through resulting in a slower permeation rate.

[Pine note: The Statistics]:

Table 15 - Piperonal permeation rate values by bag thickness

Bag Thickness (mil)      Permeation Rate (ng/sec)

   1.5                            250 ± 10
   2                               208± 6
   3                               173 ± 18
   4                               142 ± 4
   HD (2mil)                     19 ± 5


Vendor Comment: Fuck yeah.


Finally, they are extremely easy to obtain.

Here is just one example of a website selling them:

http://discountpolypropylenebags.co.uk/

And why what a wonderfully informative site it is too!

Quote

What are Polypropylene bags?

Polypropylene poly bags are made from virgin polypropylene plastic. Polypropylene bags are versatile, attractive bags most commonly used for packaging small items such as beads and lollies. These bags can be sealed with a heat sealer like many other plastic bags. While polypropylene is similar to cello, polypropylene bags are much clearer with neater seals, and have the advantage of being less expensive than cello bags.
   
Polypropylene poly bags have been the choice for product presentation and preserving freshness. Polypropylene poly bags are a high clarity crystal clear bag which enhances the product's image. They provide a highly protective barrier against moisture, dirt and vapors and meet FDA and EFSA specifications for food content. Polypropylene bags also referred as 'Polyprop bags' or 'PP bags'.

These bags are by far the most popular for give away because of both its price and features. They are mainly used for displays.

History of Polypropylene

Professor Giulio Natta produced the first polypropylene resin in Spain in 1954. Natta utilised catalysts developed for the polyethylene industry and applied the technology to propylene gas. Commercial production began in 1957 and polypropylene usage has displayed strong growth from this date. The versatility of the polymer (the ability to adapt to a wide range of fabrication methods and applications) has sustained growth rates enabling PP to challenge the market share of a host of alternative materials in plethora of applications.

[Pine Note: "plethora of applications" No fucking shit! :D :D :D]

Properties of Polypropylene

(Semi-rigid, translucent, good chemical resistance, tough, good fatigue resistance, integral hinge property, good heat resistance).

Production of polypropylene takes place by slurry, solution or gas phase process, in which the propylene monomer is subjected to heat and pressure in the presence of a catalyst system. Polymerisation is achieved at relatively low temperature and pressure and the product yielded is translucent, but readily coloured. Differences in catalyst and production conditions can be used to alter the properties of the plastic.

PP does not present stress-cracking problems and offers excellent electrical and chemical resistance at higher temperatures. While the properties of PP are similar to those of Polyethylene, there are specific differences. These include a lower density, higher softening point (PP doesn't melt below 160oC, Polyethylene, a more common plastic, will anneal at around 100oC) and higher rigidity and hardness. Additives are applied to all commercially produced polypropylene resins to protect the polymer during processing and to enhance end-use performance.

[Pine Note: This is interesting too]

CPP or cast polypropylene film is a multilayer polypropylene film with co-polymer and homo-polymer. It is used as a heat seal layer along with BOPP or polyester film in a laminate for packing of food articles. CPP films have been known in the packaging field to be the more elegant brother of polyethylene film, with higher gloss, greater transparency and better heat resistance.

[Pine Note:
I translate that to: certain types of HDPP should be the gold standard for long trips to hot places like Australia. Food Science you are unloved but we think you are the awesomest of all the sciences except maybe chemistry.]

Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: jafowep on August 04, 2012, 06:00 pm
Correct me if i'm wrong

I think the alcohol would be used to try to remove any molecules left over on the material, if any had come into contact with it, not to "trick" the dogs nose.

The difference between "100 layers of vacuumed wrapping" and the human body would be, the vacuum seal would of just been applied. So the smell needs a lot of time to permeate all of the layers. Where as the human body with cancer let's say, has had cancer for a week. I'm not sure on how the human body compares to 100 layers of vacuum seal, but i'm going to say that within a week, the smell would of permeated both depending on how porus they are.

As far as i'm aware dogs don't have some magical power to be able to smell any molecule through materials that haven't had time to permeate.

I call bullshit on this.

Just because we dumbfuck humans can't tell when a smell such as weed is overpowered with alcohol doesn't mean a dog can't. Infact a dog can smell cancer within the human body, which means they can definitely smell your MDMA from 100 layers of "vacuumed wrapping".

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dog+smell+cancer&oq=dog+smell+cancer&sugexp=chrome,mod=6&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The fact you can get delivery successfully through most postal services and via customs is pure luck. It's a percentages game based on government finances and voter expectations.


My good friend owns a breeding kennel for one the dogs most used by customs and police for tracking substances, money, people and whatever. Recently he got there a new "stud dog" that was retired from police :). It is specially trained for drug sniffings and served 5 years, busted out many not-so-bright people :P

So we bought a vacuum machine + some weed, amphetamine, cocaine and mdma. We tried single vacuum, double vacuum and triple vacuum. Each layer was rubbed with alcohol and different gloves were used to pack the stuff in and for other handling. Packaging was done in different premises with different clothing on.

If it did not get it at 1st time, we tried several different time spans for same packages to see if they start to leak the smell. All of these "experiments" were done twice to get constant data (Yes, I like Mythbusters!). I will post more results in few days, I still have the same packages we used.

I am not sure if I have mentioned my home country in some of my previous messages, propably yes but just in case, it is a place with notorious customs in Scandinavia :).
Weed:
1 layer, 15 mins both times
2 layers, 12 hours 1st, 3 days 2nd
3 layers: not after 48 hours, but got after 5 days. 2nd was not detected after 5 days.

Amfetamine:
No reaction at all to any packages in vacuumsafter 5 days. No reaction to speed in plastic bag either. I think it may have something to do with the speed itself, the stuff that is mostly sold here is totally different than the "ducth paste" we used. Our stuff origins from Baltic countries and Russia, they use different precursos and methods.

Cocaine:
After 5 days no reaction to any package. Obviously he still knows it´s coke and a no-no, he found three stashes in plastic bags with no problems.

MDMA:
Dog went wild on this, I think it was his favourite:
1 layer: both 15 min
2 layer: 1st 15min, 2nd 1 hour
3 layers: 1st not after 5 days, 2nd after 24 hours.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Holly on August 04, 2012, 06:23 pm
Motherfucker, of course MDMA is his favorite.  >:(
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Hiding on August 04, 2012, 06:44 pm
Motherfucker, of course MDMA is his favorite.  >:(
Lol. I thought the same thing.   :-\
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: pine on August 04, 2012, 06:57 pm
Motherfucker, of course MDMA is his favorite.  >:(
Lol. I thought the same thing.   :-\

I respect dogs. They are our best honorable enemy. Even more than ion spec in many ways. Now that they like MDMA I think he's even smarter than his LE handler, he could teach him a few tricks too. :P
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Oldtoker on August 04, 2012, 08:07 pm
Dogs have weaknesses.  Their nose isn't one of 'em.  But they are easily distracted and tire fairly quickly.  The longer they work, the less they'll find. 
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Delta11 on August 05, 2012, 05:25 am
From what my buddies have told me that work at UPS,USPS, and FedEx is that they tend to use older dogs that have experience but their weakness is the amount of packages they have to go through several packages and tend to only spot the packages that aren't even sealed either properly or at all which is why the success rate, according to pine, is over 95%. I still wouldn't leave it up to chance though and continue researching on how to improve your packaging, I see a lot vendors just seal once and get comfortable.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: nobleking on August 05, 2012, 05:40 am
From what my buddies have told me that work at UPS,USPS, and FedEx is that they tend to use older dogs that have experience but their weakness is the amount of packages they have to go through several packages and tend to only spot the packages that aren't even sealed either properly or at all which is why the success rate, according to pine, is over 95%. I still wouldn't leave it up to chance though and continue researching on how to improve your packaging, I see a lot vendors just seal once and get comfortable.

Couldn't agree more with you on that man!
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: pine on August 05, 2012, 09:52 am
Thanks to thisaintme for setting up the experiments. We need a more rigorous scientific approach to add to the body of vendor knowledge. Even though we might not have a clean room laboratory or something, it still behooves us to think and run empirical experiments to discover new heuristics.

Of course producing superior packaging may seem a little irrelevant given the statistics I myself I have collected before. The DSR was 97.51% in the last poll, and data from a more recent thread is 95.07% (but sample was smaller).

However, this would be a short sighted mistake, because odds are that the government will be sponsoring more elaborate security apparatus in the future. This is after all an arms race.

Thus eventually the men will be separated from the boys, so you had better be ready when it comes. Because then there will be über-profits for all the sharpest vendors. I'll explain why.

This evolution will most likely at the level of International Shipping because the package numbers are smaller than Domestic. Thing is of course is that the smart vendors have already long figured out that the profit margins on geographical arbitrage are much higher than D2D. I mean, you can obtain your normal margin + at something like 25% - 100% on the entire deal by transshipping up from some southern states (e.g. cocaine) to ones like New York, or (e.g. marijuana) shipping from British Columbia to the south, another veritable silk road. But! You could just as easily be shipping to countries like Norway, Sweden, New Zealand and Australia. For example; even a naive vendor pair with no previous connects can buy e.g. cocaine @ 80USD/g in the southern U.S and then have the other fellow in New Zealand who will be able to retail it at a minimum of 300USD/g. I've actually heard it's twice as high as that, but I'm being conservative here. Similarly, there is huge demand for real MDMA (because in truth they've never had the real thing in some parts), you can acquire at 2-4USD per pill and retail at 30-40USD per pill in Australia and New Zealand.

Think about that. Take the average at both geographical locations and calculate. That's a > 1000% profit for the pair of you! Of course shipping also takes longer, so let's not get too excited, but even so, I think you should be cheering.

An outraged Hoffa can confirm prices, I think he'll broadly agree wherever he happens to live.

--

Anyway, my point is that this is the most difficult route due to interceptions, due to a mixture of circumstances e.g. the voluminous Australian border watch propaganda deterring low I.Q local dealers unable to see it for what it is (a giant bluff, but it still gives less 'cannon fodder' cover for ourselves), the longer than normal journey + temperature, the concentration of mail etc.

Whenever LE try to come up with a killer app or some combination of strategies, it's most likely going to be on "silk roads" like this one. This will mean those people using HDPP packaging + an unnatural number of layers will win hands down and everybody else is screwed. This surely implies the existing level of arbitrage will massively increase. HDPP plastic emits 1215.78% less particulate than normal LDPE plastic, especially under conditions of heat.

What happens, when you're already making 1000% profit, and then your competition (mostly those not using vaccum packing actually, it's not really SR vendors you're competing with) gets whacked by losing 10 times more packages?

Use HDPP plastic and enjoy Ricardo's Law of Comparative Advantage.

I knew I studied that Economics book all those years ago for some fucking reason.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: pine on August 05, 2012, 09:59 am
Also, must bring in FarmerBob here, he's always got some interesting analysis and critique on the go. I think zifnab and fizzy will also be interested, I think they were trying to build an equation for measuring particulate transmission or something at one point.

Anyway, thisaintme keep up the good work with your excellent resources. I think I asked novacaine to be vacuum packing fried bacon to see if his bacon obsessed dog would detect the contents, but a trained MDMA loving police dog is still better yet.

P.S. FarmerBob, I think disagrees with the idea that HDPP is a pancrea. We should quiz him on why! :)
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: mrmdma on August 05, 2012, 02:20 pm
OP=Legend
Respect & +++ Karma!

Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: the_sweeney on August 05, 2012, 02:27 pm

This evolution will most likely at the level of International Shipping because the package numbers are smaller than Domestic.


Exactly what I have been considering.

Pine, I've read all your posts and theres a few things I'm hoping you might be able to help me clear up (in layman's terms). It seem that HDPP packaging is the best for international deliveries and staying one ahead, but everywhere I've looked online, the bags just look like the woven bags that sand is carried in?

I'm also confused about mylar (moisture barrier)/vacuum, are these both considered to be LDPP?

Cheers
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: müslix on August 05, 2012, 02:49 pm
+1 for epic thread.
Amfetamine:
No reaction at all to any packages in vacuumsafter 5 days. No reaction to speed in plastic bag either. I think it may have something to do with the speed itself, the stuff that is mostly sold here is totally different than the "ducth paste" we used. Our stuff origins from Baltic countries and Russia, they use different precursos and methods.
To shed some light on this: Once you buy "paste" it means that in 99.9% of the cases it is cut. This is done by dissolving amphetamine in a liquid, adding all kinds of adulterants and letting it partly dry, resulting in this paste-ish consistency. As liquid a lot of solvents can be used, different alcohols, aceton, etc. Therefore it is hard to train a dog to find this. Pure amphetamine(sulphate) is odorless and very hard to detect.

Wanna share your amphetamine source? :)

Ex-girl friend was a vet, she said police dogs are all crazy because of the drill and they can be trained to find pretty much any smell. For them it's as obvious as a red shiny stone in a bucket of water for us humans.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: sourman on August 05, 2012, 02:54 pm
There are special resealable bags made for camping that are designed to stop bears and shit from smelling your food. If properly handled and layered, they will stop dogs from smelling anything for at least 5 days. Hungry bears (who have a far better sense of smell than any dog) usually cannot smell food you place in these bags even after several days.

I've heard of someone who tested these and similar bags using hunting dogs and animal carcasses. The dogs failed to locate the dead animals even after several days of decay. Furthermore, someone I know had a personal encounter with a drug dog while concealing a small amount of bud within 2 layers of these (properly handled) resealable camping bags. Dog didn't smell shit. The weed was only in there for about one day, but it's still impressive given the convenience of these easy to use bags. I'm not sure what they are made from and that info is likely proprietary anyway. However, it did say that the material is 17,000x stronger than HDPE as far as odor protection goes.

Props to the OPs for starting this much needed discussion!
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: pine on August 05, 2012, 03:09 pm

This evolution will most likely at the level of International Shipping because the package numbers are smaller than Domestic.


Exactly what I have been considering.

Pine, I've read all your posts and theres a few things I'm hoping you might be able to help me clear up (in layman's terms). It seem that HDPP packaging is the best for international deliveries and staying one ahead, but everywhere I've looked online, the bags just look like the woven bags that sand is carried in?

I'm also confused about mylar (moisture barrier)/vacuum, are these both considered to be LDPP?

Cheers

Hi,

Quote
Polypropylene poly bags are made from virgin polypropylene plastic. Polypropylene bags are versatile, attractive bags most commonly used for packaging small items such as beads and lollies. These bags can be sealed with a heat sealer like many other plastic bags. While polypropylene is similar to cello, polypropylene bags are much clearer with neater seals, and have the advantage of being less expensive than cello bags

We must be looking at different things. Some HDPP (there's probably a few phenotypes) looks a lot like the plastic bags those expensive boiled sweets or specialist chocolates/truffles come in (this is of course pure hearsay, pine wouldn't know anything about expensive choc truffles...). It is slightly more rigid and crinkly (is that a real word?).

HDPP seems to be a family of plastic types depending on the application, like the way LDPE is. It will be important to select the correct HDPP type, not just any particular type, and you may choose different types of HDPP for different reasons. I think I highlighted one type used in the food industry which doubles up as a sort of heat shield barrier for example.

I don't know all the facts, because like yourself I'm learning on the job, but more research must surely be done into HDPP if we can expect a 10 fold decrease in interceptions (from detections). Although HDPP could be a comparative advantage that eventually gives HDPP vacuum packing vendors a decisive edge over the competition, that is more of a hypothetical in comparison to the guarantee that less packages are intercepted because it lowers the vendors overall risk of getting busted. So, even if the pay off is the same, the lower risk still makes it worthwhile (and apparently it is even cheaper than LDPE, woot!)

--

On the other question, I am no mylar expert, but mylar is a polyethylene (PE vs PP) so in theory according to the whitepaper it ought to have higher levels of particulate transmission. I have a thought that Farmer Bob will disagree with that, so let's wait and see what he says.

Ideally, we should experiment with LDPE vs HDPP vs BoPET (mylar is a brand name if you like) and any other ideas of appropriate plastic to test ourselves.

Instead of waiting for days on end to conduct our experiments, we could simply arrange the conditions that the package would suffer. i.e. being moved about + higher temperatures over a period of time.

The best way of doing this is simple I think. Just sterilize your tumble dryer somehow and then throw a package in there to test it. We cannot all obtain police dogs, but it may be possible to obtain portable drug detection equipment.

I mean, if we have a package that's been in a tumble dryer for 2 hours at high heat (I've had pillows melt on me with these conditions!), and it still emits single digit nanograms per second of particulate, then I would feel very safe using that method to send product through the mail.

The other issue is the pin test. You'll notice threads in shipping from before where the packages have arrived with holes in them. This is sometimes because Customs/Postal inspectors put a pin through a package and then give it to a dog to sniff.

This can be easily defeated by using lunchboxes which use rigid plastic all the way around if you're shifting larger quantities of product (but I recommend most vendors ship under an ounce and swarm packages across instead).

I'm a bit leery of using metallic mylar, not for any evidence based reason, I just wonder if it would become a red flag on an x-ray (not for any good reason, but because some idiots think xrays can't see through alum foil (that could be true of radio waves though if you were building a Faraday cage)).
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: sourman on August 05, 2012, 03:17 pm
Quote
I'm a bit leery of using metallic mylar, not for any evidence based reason, I just wonder if it would become a red flag on an x-ray (not for any good reason, but because some idiots think xrays can't see through alum foil (that could be true of radio waves though if you were building a Faraday cage)).

Mylar is sometimes used to contain samples to be X-ray'd. They wouldn't use it if it attenuated or deflected the beam. However, I'm not sure if it will show up differently on actual package scanners that use X-rays. I guess you could always use resealed potato chip bags or something with a custom label related to food.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: pine on August 05, 2012, 03:25 pm
Quote
I'm a bit leery of using metallic mylar, not for any evidence based reason, I just wonder if it would become a red flag on an x-ray (not for any good reason, but because some idiots think xrays can't see through alum foil (that could be true of radio waves though if you were building a Faraday cage)).

Mylar is sometimes used to contain samples in X-ray experiments, so it won't block them. Not sure if it will show up differently on actual package scanners that use X-rays. I guess you could always use resealed potato chip bags or something with a custom label related to food.

Yeah, but who posts potato chips through the mail from America or Europe to intentional destinations like Australia? Probably less people than those sending drugs! (when you look at all the RC seiziures Customs makes for example).

Tell me more about these bear bag/container things. That's an interesting idea!  Do you have any intel on the composition? Most bear proof stuff I'm seeing is not about preventing bears knowing food exists, but preventing them getting at it (cruelty to animals!).
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: jafowep on August 05, 2012, 03:35 pm
I'm not sure if these are the same bags that sourman is talking about but there are these bags:
They claim to be odor proof bags that you can use when camping etc.

http://www.loksak.com/products/opsak
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: sourman on August 05, 2012, 03:46 pm
I wouldn't use that to ship to AUS but hey, if you have a bunch of techniques in your rotation it won't hurt to switch it up. Using actual resealed potato chip bags is easy but doesn't look right. It would be best to make your own Mylar bags with custom labels if you want to go that route.

Not sure what they were made of, but it's probably some proprietary material or blend. They definitely keep bears from smelling the food though. Those other bear bags are designed to let them chew without breaking the bag.

**Yup, jafowep found them. They are called OP SAKS.

EDIT: Here's a useful review of these different products: http://www.spadout.com/a/backcountry-food-storage-in-bear-country/
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: pine on August 05, 2012, 04:31 pm
So far, I'm thinking bears are awesome!
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: the_sweeney on August 05, 2012, 05:57 pm
Pine, I've found this; http://www.alphap.com/basics/compare.html
Shows different moisture vapour transmission rates of various plastics. HDPE and PP come out the same for MVTR, although they have a much greater O2 and CO2 transmission rate than PET. Now I am wondering what the significance of this is, since the dogs are not sniffing for pure O2 and CO2?

Does anyone here specifically know how the MDMA odors are transmitted? If MDMA molecules are bound to water vapour then surely a material with the lowest possible MVTR will be best. If not, is anyone aware of a standard specification for odor transmission?
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: FarmerBob on August 08, 2012, 04:43 am
well good job thisaintme.

try putting the bags in an envelope or box and sticking them in a hot car for a day or two.  That will be the real test as high temperatures will greatly increase diffusion rates.

Vacuuming should make no difference, in fact on polymer bags pulling a vacuum should make the results slightly worse.  Stresses that cause any inelastic deformation or stretching of any type of polymer will reduce the crystallinity of that polymer.  Reduced crystallinity WILL cause greater permeation.  I know it seems counter-intuitive, but diffusion flows are largely independent of absolute pressure.  If you don't trust me (and why should you) then go to wikipedia and get to know the diffusion equation, if you can handle calculus you can handle diff-eq.

The reason I do not use PP, PE or any other homogeneous polymer is that COTS flexible polymer films tend to have a wide range of crystallinity and there's no guarantee that the PP one guy has is the same as the PP from another vendor.  This stuff is generally made for food and so there's no quality control on many of the factors that impact scent permeation.

Moisture barrier bags are designed to limit flows of moisture and gasses.  They'll do a great job of containing heavier organics, better than any polymer bags will.  The ones i use are 7-mil thick but are roughly equivalent in moisture permeation to the 3-inch thick acrylic you see in bulletproof windows at gas stations.  The 3M COTS bags (the -2700s I think) are probably close to that in performance as well.

dual beam x-ray systems cannot spot aluminum that thin.  Thick metals, particularly dense metals, show up very well, but 1-mil of a light metal like aluminum is less absorptive of the x-rays than the 6-mils of plastic.  there's no way a dual beam system will discern that as a metal.

Bear proof bags are just 3M MBBs with a zip-line on them and then re-sold at an outrageous price.

Mylar is not the same as a MBB.  Mylar is probably better than a straight polymer bag but it's not the engineered material that a real MBB is.

However, if people want to use polymer bags more power to them, I'm not a buyer here, only a seller, so there's no risk to me.  And I've decided that every herd needs some slow movers to feed the lions.  Otherwise the lions would have to up their game.

Once again good job thisaintme
and thanks Pine for the heads up, I probably would have never found this otherwise.

Best Regards,
Bob
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Delta11 on August 08, 2012, 07:49 am
well good job thisaintme.

try putting the bags in an envelope or box and sticking them in a hot car for a day or two.  That will be the real test as high temperatures will greatly increase diffusion rates.

Vacuuming should make no difference, in fact on polymer bags pulling a vacuum should make the results slightly worse.  Stresses that cause any inelastic deformation or stretching of any type of polymer will reduce the crystallinity of that polymer.  Reduced crystallinity WILL cause greater permeation.  I know it seems counter-intuitive, but diffusion flows are largely independent of absolute pressure.  If you don't trust me (and why should you) then go to wikipedia and get to know the diffusion equation, if you can handle calculus you can handle diff-eq.

The reason I do not use PP, PE or any other homogeneous polymer is that COTS flexible polymer films tend to have a wide range of crystallinity and there's no guarantee that the PP one guy has is the same as the PP from another vendor.  This stuff is generally made for food and so there's no quality control on many of the factors that impact scent permeation.

Moisture barrier bags are designed to limit flows of moisture and gasses.  They'll do a great job of containing heavier organics, better than any polymer bags will.  The ones i use are 7-mil thick but are roughly equivalent in moisture permeation to the 3-inch thick acrylic you see in bulletproof windows at gas stations.  The 3M COTS bags (the -2700s I think) are probably close to that in performance as well.

dual beam x-ray systems cannot spot aluminum that thin.  Thick metals, particularly dense metals, show up very well, but 1-mil of a light metal like aluminum is less absorptive of the x-rays than the 6-mils of plastic.  there's no way a dual beam system will discern that as a metal.

Bear proof bags are just 3M MBBs with a zip-line on them and then re-sold at an outrageous price.

Mylar is not the same as a MBB.  Mylar is probably better than a straight polymer bag but it's not the engineered material that a real MBB is.

However, if people want to use polymer bags more power to them, I'm not a buyer here, only a seller, so there's no risk to me.  And I've decided that every herd needs some slow movers to feed the lions.  Otherwise the lions would have to up their game.

Once again good job thisaintme
and thanks Pine for the heads up, I probably would have never found this otherwise.

Best Regards,
Bob
Good stuff right here thanks FarmerBob, Pine, and the OP!

+1
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: psykhe on August 08, 2012, 11:05 am
Thanks OP, interesting read! The geekery on this thread made me happy in the pants. I'd be dishing out karma if I could!
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: wizdom on August 09, 2012, 02:22 pm
 ;D Happy in my pants too LOL. First thread I've ever read end to end. I never thought being stoned during my differential equation math class would hamper my drug dealing, but there you go...

I would humbly request that Farmer Bob give up a good supplier for his favorite shipping materials.

Thanks all,

Wizdom
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: pine on August 09, 2012, 09:03 pm
It's a better idea if we keep our suppliers to ourselves, and simply mention what you specifically need to obtain. Then finding the suppliers is trivial. Otherwise you could be creating the birth of a source of intelligence for LEO, perhaps not now, but if enough vendors buy product X from supplier Y...
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: foundacoolusername on August 10, 2012, 09:32 pm
Awesome thread of cool info.  Nice work everyone.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Looker on August 11, 2012, 02:41 am
Sick info OP thanks, and Pine also, this really gives us a better idea of just how 'safe' our packages are whether in transit or sitting at a drop somewhere. Gives some ideas too what kind of things to use as outer materials to stash things in places like cars or buildings.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Tunbear on August 11, 2012, 04:43 am
I think we should just start shipping dog food in separate packages at the same time :D
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Flakes on August 13, 2012, 07:43 pm
I have used Static Shielding Bags used for electronics along with a sealer to seal herbs.

2 layers, no vacuum, sealed and wiped with acetone in-between, and there was no smell 2-3 weeks later on a sample. The same qty could be picked up from 10' away after spending a night in a baggie stuffed inside a glass jar...

I use large (12x12) bags which I cut down to size and seal on all 3 open sides (after cutting). Stuff inside a slightly larger bag, seal again.

the bags are made of polyethylene, aluminum, polyester, and "static disappative" layers... they're also opaque.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: mochill on August 14, 2012, 09:11 am
I have a question: does glass (jars/containers) keep in MDMA molecules pretty effectively? Let's say I put some crushed MDMA into a cap, and then into a ziplock, then into a glass jar. Would that be sufficient enough security, or would the mdma go through the glass (or perhaps the plug for the jar)?
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: pine on August 14, 2012, 03:07 pm
I have used Static Shielding Bags used for electronics along with a sealer to seal herbs.

2 layers, no vacuum, sealed and wiped with acetone in-between, and there was no smell 2-3 weeks later on a sample. The same qty could be picked up from 10' away after spending a night in a baggie stuffed inside a glass jar...

I use large (12x12) bags which I cut down to size and seal on all 3 open sides (after cutting). Stuff inside a slightly larger bag, seal again.

the bags are made of polyethylene, aluminum, polyester, and "static disappative" layers... they're also opaque.

You're making a good effort, but we need to be doing experiments far more scientifically, I mean there is simply no comparison between a canine nose and a human one. If smelling was seeing, then we would be the equivalent of cave bats in the kingdom of the mammals.

So, getting the raw data, getting numbers is super important so you have a solid foundation. It is clear from the academic whitepapers that multiple layers are good if handled correctly in a clean staging area, taking the particulate rate (our key metric) of nanograms to hundreds per sec. However although this massively deters both electronic and canine noses in terms of the practical business of prioritization when faced with many packages such as at the postal conveyor belts in sorting offices, you ideally want the PR at single digit ng/sec so that even an experienced dog or the best electronic detection equipment fails when presented directly with a package to alert on. So, we need access to equipment for testing (to produce some blackpapers, ha ha I'm so funny... don't give up your Int smuggling career just yet pine!).

In the meantime, upping your layers to 3, ensuring your staging area practices are clean and possibly putting packages into ice water before transmission sound to me like reasonable precautions. Good job on the acetone wipe btw, more people should be doing that.

I have a question: does glass (jars/containers) keep in MDMA molecules pretty effectively? Let's say I put some crushed MDMA into a cap, and then into a ziplock, then into a glass jar. Would that be sufficient enough security, or would the mdma go through the glass (or perhaps the plug for the jar)?

Yes our pals at OVDB are fond of using mason jars because it prohibits the Customs pin test from working and they may have a requirement to be distributing vials of liquid LSD occasionally. However two issues are that glass is infamously not so opaque, and more importantly the transmission of glass receptacles through the postal system (IMHO of course) is subject to breakages and also can suggest the carriage of a liquid (or allow such an interpretation to be chosen if you understand me), which is a red flag to a postal service constantly on the look out for mail bombs. Maybe it was different pre 9/11, but that's changed, I would hare hundred miles away from giving the postal inspectors any hint of explosives traversing the mail system, because then they would have much greater leverage to open anything they want. USPS affords drugs in the mail some degree of protection due to legal rules that don't apply to private couriers. USPS folding, which it almost certainly will, will introduce problems for unsophisticated drug smugglers later on.

It is normal for small quantities of drugs of all kinds to (most illicit packages picked up are probably initially imagined to be steroids or foreign RCs) travel through the postal system. A couple of grams of MDMA vacuum packed a couple of times with LDPE or HDPP or Mylar, and splitting larger quantities above 10 grams into multiple packages is probably the optimal choice in today's present environment (suggest using a little plastic container inside the layers so it's not messy, or possibly a foil sachet like the sort that comes with your quick cook noodles).

In all honestly, I think proper staging area handling is more of a problem right now than the packaging technique (but if you don't use packaging then you don't have a problem, you are the problem lol). Judging from what SR's informants say inside the postal system, often dogs will practically attack a package, tear it to shreds while completely ignoring the drugs vacuum packed that fell out of the exterior package. Clearly the vendor screwed up with his handling policy. Either his staging area was not clean or he touched the exterior/interior of the vacuum packaging with drug particulate on his paws. Or god forbid he went off and smoked a joint to relieve stress.

As such, it might behoove people to be closely examining the strict staging area protocols observed by those scientists that work in cleanroom laboratories in the nanotech and biomed industry.

Remember above all else, this is only half about avoiding interceptions of product, it is also about decreasing risks for the vendor, that is arguably far more important than merely losing business.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Flakes on August 15, 2012, 12:40 pm

You're making a good effort, but we need to be doing experiments far more scientifically, I mean there is simply no comparison between a canine nose and a human one. If smelling was seeing, then we would be the equivalent of cave bats in the kingdom of the mammals.

Oh certainly... I'm not sending stuff through the mails so much, so its not a concern. I just rarely stash anything @ home so having a "person proof" smell barrier is important to me. I found there was little difference between 2 and 3 layers (frankly there was little difference between 1 and 2, but on the thought that the seal on 1 bag could possible fail adding a 2nd layer sounded like a good idea... It would be interesting to test methods out against a trained canine. If I was doing this for a living I sure would be trying to get empirical data...


As such, it might behoove people to be closely examining the strict staging area protocols observed by those scientists that work in cleanroom laboratories in the nanotech and biomed industry.

Not to mention fingerprints and DNA transfer... I'd suggest doubling up on gloves and tossing the first pair after handling the goods as a bare minimum. Plus some kind of wash of the initial package before stuffing it in an envelope...
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Joy on August 21, 2012, 12:55 pm
seems like usps & just vac seal is not good enogh to pass my customs =   http://www.metrotvnews.com/read/newsvideo/2011/10/25/138491/Bea-Cukai-Soetta-Gagalkan-Penyelundupan-Kokain

send via fedex even with vac & covered with foil:    http://www.investor.co.id/pages/videos/?id=3382

fucking customs >:( >:( >:(


Edit:  i wonder,if we vac it & cover it via http://www.eurospyshop.com/antidetectionfoil_p_1174.html?language=ar
will it pass x-ray?   ::)
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: PlutoPete on October 03, 2012, 04:38 pm
If the op is still able to do these tests i'd like to send them some of my heat seal foil to play with :)
Constructed of micron 12чm PET, 12чm PE, 7чm Alu, 20чm PE, 60чm HDPE.
My tests were much less scientific, anyone want some raw egg foil sealed for 5 weeks :)
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: kmfkewm on October 04, 2012, 08:26 am
for once oscar is actually not full of bs http://www.barksar.org/K-9_Detection_Capabilities.pdf
I agree, dogs can smell molecules so no matter how many times you vacuum seal a single molecule will leak out and the dog will detect it which is why if you ship international you should come up with better packaging methods.

Vacuum sealing is important and of course it creates a window of time in which the contents can not be smelled. You wash with alcohol or similar to clean any traces off the layers of the vacuum bag. A vacuum seal holds molecules in, so it keeps them away from the dogs nose. Over time scent can permeate the vacuum seal bag. Some vacuum seal bags are made with less porous materials than others and thus hold the scent away from the dog longer. I would be hesitant about using metal foil in packages, but would look into less porous plastic bags.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: PlutoPete on October 04, 2012, 10:22 am
for once oscar is actually not full of bs http://www.barksar.org/K-9_Detection_Capabilities.pdf
I agree, dogs can smell molecules so no matter how many times you vacuum seal a single molecule will leak out and the dog will detect it which is why if you ship international you should come up with better packaging methods.

Vacuum sealing is important and of course it creates a window of time in which the contents can not be smelled. You wash with alcohol or similar to clean any traces off the layers of the vacuum bag. A vacuum seal holds molecules in, so it keeps them away from the dogs nose. Over time scent can permeate the vacuum seal bag. Some vacuum seal bags are made with less porous materials than others and thus hold the scent away from the dog longer. I would be hesitant about using metal foil in packages, but would look into less porous plastic bags.
Why hesitant about using foil? it's infinitely better at odour suppression and provides a visual barrier as well.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Miss Sixty on October 11, 2012, 12:03 pm
for once oscar is actually not full of bs http://www.barksar.org/K-9_Detection_Capabilities.pdf
I agree, dogs can smell molecules so no matter how many times you vacuum seal a single molecule will leak out and the dog will detect it which is why if you ship international you should come up with better packaging methods.

Vacuum sealing is important and of course it creates a window of time in which the contents can not be smelled. You wash with alcohol or similar to clean any traces off the layers of the vacuum bag. A vacuum seal holds molecules in, so it keeps them away from the dogs nose. Over time scent can permeate the vacuum seal bag. Some vacuum seal bags are made with less porous materials than others and thus hold the scent away from the dog longer. I would be hesitant about using metal foil in packages, but would look into less porous plastic bags.

Metal foil layer is incredible small with MBBs. 5-10 mil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_(length)
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: sunny1 on October 13, 2012, 12:04 am
Quit mucking around with vacuum sealing and plastic bags. Go to aluminum foil heavy duty and be done with it. The only place odor is going to escape is from the seams. Fold the foil over until you have one line of seams then seal it with aluminum roofing tape. It is still theoretically possible to get past the adhesive on the tape and there could be a tiny hole in the foil you didn't see. So double bag it, foil is cheap. I trust  metal more than any plastic plus its dirt cheap and can be found anywhere.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Oldtoker on October 13, 2012, 07:46 pm
Quit mucking around with vacuum sealing and plastic bags. Go to aluminum foil heavy duty and be done with it. The only place odor is going to escape is from the seams. Fold the foil over until you have one line of seams then seal it with aluminum roofing tape. It is still theoretically possible to get past the adhesive on the tape and there could be a tiny hole in the foil you didn't see. So double bag it, foil is cheap. I trust  metal more than any plastic plus its dirt cheap and can be found anywhere.

Are you kidding me?  If I got a package like that I'd be highly pissed and it would be my last purchase.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: samesamebutdifferent on October 26, 2012, 09:13 am
Quit mucking around with vacuum sealing and plastic bags. Go to aluminum foil heavy duty and be done with it. The only place odor is going to escape is from the seams. Fold the foil over until you have one line of seams then seal it with aluminum roofing tape. It is still theoretically possible to get past the adhesive on the tape and there could be a tiny hole in the foil you didn't see. So double bag it, foil is cheap. I trust  metal more than any plastic plus its dirt cheap and can be found anywhere.

It also looks bloody suspicious on the x-ray scanner  ??? for an o/s order that would guarantee an inspection.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: pine on October 26, 2012, 11:01 am
Quit mucking around with vacuum sealing and plastic bags. Go to aluminum foil heavy duty and be done with it. The only place odor is going to escape is from the seams. Fold the foil over until you have one line of seams then seal it with aluminum roofing tape. It is still theoretically possible to get past the adhesive on the tape and there could be a tiny hole in the foil you didn't see. So double bag it, foil is cheap. I trust  metal more than any plastic plus its dirt cheap and can be found anywhere.

It also looks bloody suspicious on the x-ray scanner  ??? for an o/s order that would guarantee an inspection.

Yes, it's not so straightforward as it seems. This is the Art of Smuggling, we are struggling to turn it to Science, but it's not a piece of cake. Cake... mmmmh, cake. <distracted pine wanders away>
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: PlutoPete on October 26, 2012, 11:23 am
Quit mucking around with vacuum sealing and plastic bags. Go to aluminum foil heavy duty and be done with it. The only place odor is going to escape is from the seams. Fold the foil over until you have one line of seams then seal it with aluminum roofing tape. It is still theoretically possible to get past the adhesive on the tape and there could be a tiny hole in the foil you didn't see. So double bag it, foil is cheap. I trust  metal more than any plastic plus its dirt cheap and can be found anywhere.

It also looks bloody suspicious on the x-ray scanner  ??? for an o/s order that would guarantee an inspection.
The trick is to make the package look legit when scanned, heat seal foil gives a visual barrier but the scanner sees through it. If sending weed for instance you shouldn't label it as computer chips because that would be obvious on the scanner, but disguising it as dried herbs would be consistent with the scanner results.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: sunny1 on October 26, 2012, 09:26 pm
Aluminum foil does not look suspicious on xray though they do not use xray on usa shipments unless they have a warrant. Al foil looks no different than plastic on xray.

You don't put a label on the shiny foil you just sealed up, obviously. You put it inside a padded mailer or a box and send it that way same as you would if you sealed it in plastic. The postal workers see a normal looking box or mailer and do not see the foil inside.

Vacuum sealing does not keep odors in any better than sealing without a vacuum. It does not seem logical but odor can get through with or without vacuum and the vacuum stresses the plastic possibly causing it to crack so vacuum sealing may be worse than sealing without a vacuum and no where near as good as using foil. Or you could use both, foil and plastic. But then put it in something before you mail it.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: masterblaster on October 27, 2012, 07:51 pm
What about putting a layer of activated charcoal between the 1st and 2nd layers?
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: samesamebutdifferent on October 27, 2012, 08:04 pm
Anyone care to comment on the use of Moisture Barrier Bags (MBB) ? think I have read that a few vendors use them, not sure if they offer any real additional protection from odor leaking etc.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: MrWonderful on October 27, 2012, 09:25 pm
Anyone care to comment on the use of Moisture Barrier Bags (MBB) ? think I have read that a few vendors use them, not sure if they offer any real additional protection from odor leaking etc.

I bought a bunch of those bags a couple of months ago. I have been sending some smelly goodies to my friend at university biweekly for almost 4 months with no problems. The bags I ordered are extremely non-porous and they are heat sealed. I had one bag with 2 oz sealed. I left it for 2 weeks in my house and there was absolutely no scent detectable. Idk if dogs would be able to detect it, but the human nose surely couldn't.

Edit: I triple wrap my goodies so that also helps not being detected. The bag I tested was just a single heat sealed bag.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: samesamebutdifferent on October 27, 2012, 09:56 pm
Anyone care to comment on the use of Moisture Barrier Bags (MBB) ? think I have read that a few vendors use them, not sure if they offer any real additional protection from odor leaking etc.

I bought a bunch of those bags a couple of months ago. I have been sending some smelly goodies to my friend at university biweekly for almost 4 months with no problems. The bags I ordered are extremely non-porous and they are heat sealed. I had one bag with 2 oz sealed. I left it for 2 weeks in my house and there was absolutely no scent detectable. Idk if dogs would be able to detect it, but the human nose surely couldn't.

Edit: I triple wrap my goodies so that also helps not being detected. The bag I tested was just a single heat sealed bag.

Sounds encouraging, when you say you 'triple wrap' your goodies do you mean you use 3 MBB bags for posting?
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: MrWonderful on October 27, 2012, 10:08 pm
I heat seal the product in the bag. Cleanse the bag with bleach then run it through the dishwasher. I then take a shower and seal another bag and repeat the process to the 3rd bag. It takes about 2 hours to do all of this which may be quite a bit of time, but the peace of mind that comes with it is invaluable. So yes, I use three bags per 2 oz.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: samesamebutdifferent on October 27, 2012, 10:19 pm
I heat seal the product in the bag. Cleanse the bag with bleach then run it through the dishwasher. I then take a shower and seal another bag and repeat the process to the 3rd bag. It takes about 2 hours to do all of this which may be quite a bit of time, but the peace of mind that comes with it is invaluable. So yes, I use three bags per 2 oz.

That's as good as it gets for avoiding canine detection, good on you for taking the time and putting in the effort. I wonder how many other vendors do that?? not many if any at all I bet, I think a lot of people put false hope in the benefits of vacuum sealing, unless it's done in a manner similar to as you describe it doesn't do jack shit to prevent a dog picking up the odor.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Stealth RX on October 28, 2012, 06:56 am
That's as good as it gets for avoiding canine detection, good on you for taking the time and putting in the effort. I wonder how many other vendors do that?? not many if any at all I bet, I think a lot of people put false hope in the benefits of vacuum sealing, unless it's done in a manner similar to as you describe it doesn't do jack shit to prevent a dog picking up the odor.
[/quote]

yea, it seems like plastic vacuum bags are the new coffee and fabric softener. i think it is pretty much a forgone conclusion that heat sealed foil bags are tops at the moment, right?? although, for heavy domestic packages, i do love the ghetto version - heavy duty with alum roofing tape over single seal (nice one sunnyd... way to be ms. janx!!). even still, i do like pine's approach that having several ways is really the only way.

i've also heard that inside a wax candle works perfectly, anyone get that too?? then again, i used to coat my large orders with a thick layer of vasoline back in the day. my friends would say that opening one of my packages was like delivering a baby...which explains why i take the form of a stork during peyote trips.

Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: brutusk on October 29, 2012, 11:43 pm
i used to coat my large orders with a thick layer of vasoline back in the day.

I was just talking to someone who used to ship his lbs like that. Thick layer of plastic wrap covered in a thick layer of vaseline followed by another thick layer of plastic. I'll bet opening one of those packages was a hell of an afternoon
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: samesamebutdifferent on December 05, 2012, 09:18 pm
*bump*
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: TheYowie on December 05, 2012, 10:53 pm
Wow.  Um.  I had no idea the bags were that permeable.  ???  5 days for a triple sealed PE bag?  15 minutes for a single seal?

Holy sheit.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: RKL on December 06, 2012, 12:25 am
thanks for the info great thread
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: DivineMomentsofTruth on December 06, 2012, 02:37 am
Glad this got bumped.  It is very informative and I hope vendors who may be getting a bit complacent read this and step it up.

Its a bit unsettling how good the dog was at smelling the mdma...It could be sitting in that pack for 2 weeks in some cases longer before a dog walks by it.

I hope my vendors of choice read Pine's posts.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: TheYowie on December 06, 2012, 12:37 pm
I'm going with....."it's doubtful".

If I didn't know vac-sealing was that permeable, then the vast majority of vendors sure don't.  Heck, "good stealth" constitutes vac sealing a baggie and sticking it in an envelope with a printed label!

Is there a list of the types of heat-sealable bags and their permeability?

I'm also guessing that if detectable amounts take say 3 days to leech in Bag X, then adding another layer means 6 days, then another 9 - or is there more 'diminishing returns' than that?
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: SelfSovereignty on December 06, 2012, 01:13 pm
I'm going with....."it's doubtful".

If I didn't know vac-sealing was that permeable, then the vast majority of vendors sure don't.  Heck, "good stealth" constitutes vac sealing a baggie and sticking it in an envelope with a printed label!

For anyone who doesn't get the sarcasm in his statement, "stealth," as far as I'm concerned, means it could *literally* fall out at a postal inspector's feet and without a warrant or a dog, they'd just pick it back up and send it on its way.  People shouldn't throw words like "stealth" around lightly...
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Empathy101 on December 07, 2012, 08:00 am
amazballs.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: TheYowie on December 10, 2012, 12:34 am
Any updates on this?  Found some interesting MVTR data on various materials -

Material / Gauge / MVTR (g/100in2/24hrs)

Clear barrier / 5.0 / .1 - .05
Aluminized PE / 3.6 / 0.4 - .02
Aluminized PE / 7.0 / .009 - .005
Nylon-Foil / 6.0 / <.0003
Tyvek-Foil / 10.0 / <.0003
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: TheYowie on December 19, 2012, 09:50 pm
*Bump*
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: DivineMomentsofTruth on December 19, 2012, 10:15 pm
All vendors should read this thread!!!!
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: astor on December 19, 2012, 10:37 pm
Wow.  Um.  I had no idea the bags were that permeable.  ???  5 days for a triple sealed PE bag?  15 minutes for a single seal?

Holy sheit.

I've pulled vac-sealed drugs out of a package and could smell it with my own nose, so dogs could definitely smell it. That's the problem with 4-5 day shipping times. By the time the package is on the last leg of its journey, most vac-seal jobs have been rendered useless.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: DivineMomentsofTruth on December 19, 2012, 11:09 pm
Wow.  Um.  I had no idea the bags were that permeable.  ???  5 days for a triple sealed PE bag?  15 minutes for a single seal?

Holy sheit.

I've pulled vac-sealed drugs out of a package and could smell it with my own nose, so dogs could definitely smell it. That's the problem with 4-5 day shipping times. By the time the package is on the last leg of its journey, most vac-seal jobs have been rendered useless.

Yeah 4-5 days is average domestic shipping times....what about orders from the other side of the world that can take up to 4 weeks?  This is concerning to say the least
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: someoneelse87 on December 20, 2012, 12:50 am
Sooo... It would be interesting to hear from some vendors who have taken action on some of this to improve their shipping techniques. What have you used & have you noticed any improvement with international deliveries? Does adding so many vacuum sealed layers improve shipping rates, seems that extra packaging makes things bulkier & even triple sealed will leak smell after 5 days anyway.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: jnemonic on December 20, 2012, 06:48 am
Amazing post. Damn if i'll be ordering from O/S again. Unbelievable for mdma is my favourite. :P
+1. ;)
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: rafaelmenendez on December 30, 2012, 09:03 pm
Amazing post. Damn if i'll be ordering from O/S again. Unbelievable for mdma is my favourite. :P
+1. ;)

That's my problem as well. I'm trying to score some MDMA but I'm terrified it'll be intercepted.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: samesamebutdifferent on January 06, 2013, 04:50 am
bump
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Seeds and Stuff on January 09, 2013, 02:19 pm
Could anybody give a heads up on military heat seal foil? which is used for my packaging

http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad/user/bb9a5285aa
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: PlutoPete on January 09, 2013, 06:00 pm
Could anybody give a heads up on military heat seal foil? which is used for my packaging

http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad/user/bb9a5285aa
What do you need to know?
It's easy to use, the only equipment you need is a pair of hair straighteners or a clothing iron :)
http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad/item/3e10560aef
Make pouches any size you like, no need to vac seal so bud doesn't get crushed as much.
Basically it is a stronger version of the mylar bags, but in sheet form :)
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Seeds and Stuff on January 09, 2013, 07:57 pm
Could anybody give a heads up on military heat seal foil? which is used for my packaging

http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad/user/bb9a5285aa
What do you need to know?
It's easy to use, the only equipment you need is a pair of hair straighteners or a clothing iron :)
http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad/item/3e10560aef
Make pouches any size you like, no need to vac seal so bud doesn't get crushed as much.
Basically it is a stronger version of the mylar bags, but in sheet form :)

Yee, but how does it fair for smell proof, wondering if i will be able to share my weed with the continent
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: PlutoPete on January 09, 2013, 08:39 pm
Could anybody give a heads up on military heat seal foil? which is used for my packaging

http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad/user/bb9a5285aa
What do you need to know?
It's easy to use, the only equipment you need is a pair of hair straighteners or a clothing iron :)
http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad/item/3e10560aef
Make pouches any size you like, no need to vac seal so bud doesn't get crushed as much.
Basically it is a stronger version of the mylar bags, but in sheet form :)

Yee, but how does it fair for smell proof, wondering if i will be able to share my weed with the continent
Ah, I see, it's totally smellproof :)
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Seeds and Stuff on January 10, 2013, 08:55 am
Could anybody give a heads up on military heat seal foil? which is used for my packaging

http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad/user/bb9a5285aa
What do you need to know?
It's easy to use, the only equipment you need is a pair of hair straighteners or a clothing iron :)
http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad/item/3e10560aef
Make pouches any size you like, no need to vac seal so bud doesn't get crushed as much.
Basically it is a stronger version of the mylar bags, but in sheet form :)

Yee, but how does it fair for smell proof, wondering if i will be able to share my weed with the continent
Ah, I see, it's totally smellproof :)

Thats what we like to hear! thanks pluto
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: samesamebutdifferent on January 11, 2013, 10:47 am
*bump*
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: lolfbi on January 11, 2013, 07:32 pm
Anybody know often the mail companies even use dog's if at all?
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: raven92 on January 12, 2013, 04:34 pm
Anybody know often the mail companies even use dog's if at all?

Assume every day, its going to depend if they are on any cases, or there are any known shipments coming through. Etc etc etc, this is an impossible question.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: signal16 on January 13, 2013, 03:09 am
best bags i have found

WATERVAPOR TRANSMISSION RATE (FED-01)    0.0003 gms./100sq.In./24 hrs.
O2 TRANSMISSION RATE (MOCON)                      0.0006 cc/100sq.In./24 hrs.
This is a certified maximum transmission rate .
6mil bag .5mil foil

anyone found better?  i think its like 1500x less transmission than vac-u-seal bags.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: samesamebutdifferent on January 13, 2013, 11:26 am
1500x less permeable than vac seal!! c'mon vendors lets get this shit happening!!
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: lb man on January 13, 2013, 12:00 pm
What about a water seal or putting the drugs in a air tight baggie then 3 vac sealed plastic bags then inside a glass jar filled with water then inside a foam box (for protecting the glass) then in the bubble bag supplied by the post office .? The glass and water would make it heavy so instead of glass jar put inside a strong rubber bladder with water inside the bladder and have drugs inside that . Just an idea yeah . :-X
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: PlutoPete on January 13, 2013, 01:24 pm
What about a water seal or putting the drugs in a air tight baggie then 3 vac sealed plastic bags then inside a glass jar filled with water then inside a foam box (for protecting the glass) then in the bubble bag supplied by the post office .? The glass and water would make it heavy so instead of glass jar put inside a strong rubber bladder with water inside the bladder and have drugs inside that . Just an idea yeah . :-X
Or replace all the above with a heat sealed foil pouch :)
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: SuperTrips on January 24, 2013, 02:32 am
best bags i have found

WATERVAPOR TRANSMISSION RATE (FED-01)    0.0003 gms./100sq.In./24 hrs.
O2 TRANSMISSION RATE (MOCON)                      0.0006 cc/100sq.In./24 hrs.
This is a certified maximum transmission rate .
6mil bag .5mil foil

anyone found better?  i think its like 1500x less transmission than vac-u-seal bags.

I have ordered a couple hundred of these to try them out.

Thing is, I ship tons and tons of orders, and shipping just has to be practical. I cant sit around cutting foil and sealing with a curling iron all day long.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: samesamebutdifferent on January 24, 2013, 09:27 am
best bags i have found

WATERVAPOR TRANSMISSION RATE (FED-01)    0.0003 gms./100sq.In./24 hrs.
O2 TRANSMISSION RATE (MOCON)                      0.0006 cc/100sq.In./24 hrs.
This is a certified maximum transmission rate .
6mil bag .5mil foil

anyone found better?  i think its like 1500x less transmission than vac-u-seal bags.

I have ordered a couple hundred of these to try them out.

Thing is, I ship tons and tons of orders, and shipping just has to be practical. I cant sit around cutting foil and sealing with a curling iron all day long.

That's great to hear mate! really good to see these ideas being adopted by a vendor willing to give it a real test.

Keep us informed how things pan out SuperTrips

+1 for you  :)
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Slicksuit on January 24, 2013, 10:18 am
best bags i have found

WATERVAPOR TRANSMISSION RATE (FED-01)    0.0003 gms./100sq.In./24 hrs.
O2 TRANSMISSION RATE (MOCON)                      0.0006 cc/100sq.In./24 hrs.
This is a certified maximum transmission rate .
6mil bag .5mil foil

anyone found better?  i think its like 1500x less transmission than vac-u-seal bags.

I have ordered a couple hundred of these to try them out.

Thing is, I ship tons and tons of orders, and shipping just has to be practical. I cant sit around cutting foil and sealing with a curling iron all day long.

That's great to hear mate! really good to see these ideas being adopted by a vendor willing to give it a real test.

Keep us informed how things pan out SuperTrips

+1 for you  :)

I use the foil with my products - and I've never had a problem.

I really like them - and a tip for ST, one day if you've got time just sit around cutting loads of them, that's what I did.. and then all you need to do is seal them (literally takes 2/3 seconds) which is quicker than actually vac sealing the product.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: NW Nugz on February 02, 2013, 08:50 am
Great thread OP!

Just some thoughts:
So, the dog went off on some chemicals more than others. It may be true that sniffer dogs will generally follow the pattern of that dog. I wonder, tho, if dogs get different training and may react differently.
  Also, freshly made chemical drugs might be offgassing solvents or whatever and so older well aerated chemical drugs might be less detectible than fresh or ones that were impermiably packaged in storage (since they were fresh). I don't think the dogs will ignore a package because the offgassing solvents "mask" the drug scent.
NWN
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: princeblack49 on February 06, 2013, 07:34 pm
well good job thisaintme.

try putting the bags in an envelope or box and sticking them in a hot car for a day or two.  That will be the real test as high temperatures will greatly increase diffusion rates.

Vacuuming should make no difference, in fact on polymer bags pulling a vacuum should make the results slightly worse.  Stresses that cause any inelastic deformation or stretching of any type of polymer will reduce the crystallinity of that polymer.  Reduced crystallinity WILL cause greater permeation.  I know it seems counter-intuitive, but diffusion flows are largely independent of absolute pressure.  If you don't trust me (and why should you) then go to wikipedia and get to know the diffusion equation, if you can handle calculus you can handle diff-eq.

The reason I do not use PP, PE or any other homogeneous polymer is that COTS flexible polymer films tend to have a wide range of crystallinity and there's no guarantee that the PP one guy has is the same as the PP from another vendor.  This stuff is generally made for food and so there's no quality control on many of the factors that impact scent permeation.

Moisture barrier bags are designed to limit flows of moisture and gasses.  They'll do a great job of containing heavier organics, better than any polymer bags will.  The ones i use are 7-mil thick but are roughly equivalent in moisture permeation to the 3-inch thick acrylic you see in bulletproof windows at gas stations.  The 3M COTS bags (the -2700s I think) are probably close to that in performance as well.

dual beam x-ray systems cannot spot aluminum that thin.  Thick metals, particularly dense metals, show up very well, but 1-mil of a light metal like aluminum is less absorptive of the x-rays than the 6-mils of plastic.  there's no way a dual beam system will discern that as a metal.

Bear proof bags are just 3M MBBs with a zip-line on them and then re-sold at an outrageous price.

Mylar is not the same as a MBB.  Mylar is probably better than a straight polymer bag but it's not the engineered material that a real MBB is.

However, if people want to use polymer bags more power to them, I'm not a buyer here, only a seller, so there's no risk to me.  And I've decided that every herd needs some slow movers to feed the lions.  Otherwise the lions would have to up their game.

Once again good job thisaintme
and thanks Pine for the heads up, I probably would have never found this otherwise.

Best Regards,
Bob

CAN THIS INFO BE PASSED TO ALL VENDORS BY THE SR STAFF? HOW ABOUT ADDING IT TO THE BUYERS GUIDE??
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: samesamebutdifferent on February 06, 2013, 08:03 pm
I am sending the link to this thread to a vendor as we speak...

When talking to your vendors re shipping open a discussion re this stuff and forward them the link, the more people we share this info with the better.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: jnemonic on February 24, 2013, 10:05 pm
Has been great reading this thread. :)

I have booked marked the vendors who are going the extra lengths for their stealth and will be placing orders with them soon...

Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: phoboss on February 25, 2013, 04:07 am
I know it's in good faith what all this info is for but the same way you found it and spoke about it anyone can as anyone can make an account on here this stuff should never be revealed out in the open like this as is like I said I know it's in good faith what the OP done but what it stemmed into was a LE info fest honestly think about it and to me if I was a vendor growing and selling green knowing my stuff stinks to high heaven I think I'd have the common sense to test n trial all sorts of materials myself to keep the loud smell in anyway I'm not having a go at anyone cos I know it's all in good faith but you never really know do you ?????? I've always been told think before you speak I don't know how the saying goes for writing things down that anyone can read do you get my drift now without me being a bad guy peace n love people SR for ever DPR is a boss
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: samesamebutdifferent on February 25, 2013, 09:20 am
Please elaborate how this information is of any use to LE?

Trust me I  stamp on posts/threads that include sensitive information, what is included in this thread only helps the community.

Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: phoboss on February 25, 2013, 10:45 am
Your AVATAR says it all, are you being seriously serious that this was helping the community by telling everyone how it's done and what they use when vendors say don't speak about such things nor  mention my techniques ha it even goes as far as mentioning vendors by name how they do and what they use are you for real mate like I said I don't want to sound like the bubble popper or the bad guy but come on man are you being seriously serious for real, now if say LE was reading this would they have a field day YES or NO please be truthfhul about this Q's answer ok look all I'm saying is if I was a vendor I would not want people talking about what i sell how I do it and what materials I use and my name too ok wake the F, up please and cos you stamp on threads with sensitive info makes you what I mean who the F, are you when vendors liberties are at steak ha I best shut up now before I rip you to shreds mr samesamebutdifferent cheeeezzz man
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: samesamebutdifferent on February 25, 2013, 11:23 am
Whatever dude, I gave up trying to read your ramble after the first seriously serious comment.

Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: XXXotica on February 25, 2013, 03:05 pm
Extreme paranoia killing thread!!!!! Great stuff OP
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Fallkniven on February 25, 2013, 10:07 pm
Your AVATAR says it all, are you being seriously serious that this was helping the community by telling everyone how it's done and what they use when vendors say don't speak about such things nor  mention my techniques ha it even goes as far as mentioning vendors by name how they do and what they use are you for real mate like I said I don't want to sound like the bubble popper or the bad guy but come on man are you being seriously serious for real, now if say LE was reading this would they have a field day YES or NO please be truthfhul about this Q's answer ok look all I'm saying is if I was a vendor I would not want people talking about what i sell how I do it and what materials I use and my name too ok wake the F, up please and cos you stamp on threads with sensitive info makes you what I mean who the F, are you when vendors liberties are at steak ha I best shut up now before I rip you to shreds mr samesamebutdifferent cheeeezzz man

Two words: Punctuation and Grammar.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: samesamebutdifferent on February 26, 2013, 07:53 am
Your AVATAR says it all, are you being seriously serious that this was helping the community by telling everyone how it's done and what they use when vendors say don't speak about such things nor  mention my techniques ha it even goes as far as mentioning vendors by name how they do and what they use are you for real mate like I said I don't want to sound like the bubble popper or the bad guy but come on man are you being seriously serious for real, now if say LE was reading this would they have a field day YES or NO please be truthfhul about this Q's answer ok look all I'm saying is if I was a vendor I would not want people talking about what i sell how I do it and what materials I use and my name too ok wake the F, up please and cos you stamp on threads with sensitive info makes you what I mean who the F, are you when vendors liberties are at steak ha I best shut up now before I rip you to shreds mr samesamebutdifferent cheeeezzz man

Two words: Punctuation and Grammar.

Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.

I had better shut up before I get ripped to shreds, I'm serious serious about that you know.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: onetwothree on February 27, 2013, 03:46 am
Your AVATAR says it all, are you being seriously serious that this was helping the community by telling everyone how it's done and what they use when vendors say don't speak about such things nor  mention my techniques ha it even goes as far as mentioning vendors by name how they do and what they use are you for real mate like I said I don't want to sound like the bubble popper or the bad guy but come on man are you being seriously serious for real, now if say LE was reading this would they have a field day YES or NO please be truthfhul about this Q's answer ok look all I'm saying is if I was a vendor I would not want people talking about what i sell how I do it and what materials I use and my name too ok wake the F, up please and cos you stamp on threads with sensitive info makes you what I mean who the F, are you when vendors liberties are at steak ha I best shut up now before I rip you to shreds mr samesamebutdifferent cheeeezzz man

Two words: Punctuation and Grammar.

That's three words. You just got seriously serious ripped to shreds.

OP: great thread :)
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Kristo on February 27, 2013, 05:29 am
Your AVATAR says it all, are you being seriously serious that this was helping the community by telling everyone how it's done and what they use when vendors say don't speak about such things nor  mention my techniques ha it even goes as far as mentioning vendors by name how they do and what they use are you for real mate like I said I don't want to sound like the bubble popper or the bad guy but come on man are you being seriously serious for real, now if say LE was reading this would they have a field day YES or NO please be truthfhul about this Q's answer ok look all I'm saying is if I was a vendor I would not want people talking about what i sell how I do it and what materials I use and my name too ok wake the F, up please and cos you stamp on threads with sensitive info makes you what I mean who the F, are you when vendors liberties are at steak ha I best shut up now before I rip you to shreds mr samesamebutdifferent cheeeezzz man

Aaaarrgh.... I read it through and now it's hurting my head so much I can barely write!
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Krokodine on February 27, 2013, 12:05 pm
What about a water seal or putting the drugs in a air tight baggie then 3 vac sealed plastic bags then inside a glass jar filled with water then inside a foam box (for protecting the glass) then in the bubble bag supplied by the post office .? The glass and water would make it heavy so instead of glass jar put inside a strong rubber bladder with water inside the bladder and have drugs inside that . Just an idea yeah . :-X
Or replace all the above with a heat sealed foil pouch :)

Lol. You're funny Pluto  :)
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: ChiefMaster on March 02, 2013, 06:33 am
Super topic!! got the answers i needed :)
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: mrmdma on March 02, 2013, 11:02 am
best bags i have found

WATERVAPOR TRANSMISSION RATE (FED-01)    0.0003 gms./100sq.In./24 hrs.
O2 TRANSMISSION RATE (MOCON)                      0.0006 cc/100sq.In./24 hrs.
This is a certified maximum transmission rate .
6mil bag .5mil foil

anyone found better?  i think its like 1500x less transmission than vac-u-seal bags.

Got any purchase link to share?
-MrMDMA
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: samesamebutdifferent on March 02, 2013, 11:04 pm
best bags i have found

WATERVAPOR TRANSMISSION RATE (FED-01)    0.0003 gms./100sq.In./24 hrs.
O2 TRANSMISSION RATE (MOCON)                      0.0006 cc/100sq.In./24 hrs.
This is a certified maximum transmission rate .
6mil bag .5mil foil

anyone found better?  i think its like 1500x less transmission than vac-u-seal bags.

Got any purchase link to share?
-MrMDMA

Plenty of info in this thread mate:

http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=119458.0



Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: googleyed1 on March 03, 2013, 02:04 pm
Your AVATAR says it all, are you being seriously serious that this was helping the community by telling everyone how it's done and what they use when vendors say don't speak about such things nor  mention my techniques ha it even goes as far as mentioning vendors by name how they do and what they use are you for real mate like I said I don't want to sound like the bubble popper or the bad guy but come on man are you being seriously serious for real, now if say LE was reading this would they have a field day YES or NO please be truthfhul about this Q's answer ok look all I'm saying is if I was a vendor I would not want people talking about what i sell how I do it and what materials I use and my name too ok wake the F, up please and cos you stamp on threads with sensitive info makes you what I mean who the F, are you when vendors liberties are at steak ha I best shut up now before I rip you to shreds mr samesamebutdifferent cheeeezzz man


This guy has a serious attitude problem. Vendors beware. Do not sell to this guy. It will not be worth the agro!

Oh, and you see that little button next to Phoboss's avatar... The one that says [discourage].. Yeah, that's the one... Click that

;)
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: samesamebutdifferent on March 03, 2013, 07:54 pm
Your AVATAR says it all, are you being seriously serious that this was helping the community by telling everyone how it's done and what they use when vendors say don't speak about such things nor  mention my techniques ha it even goes as far as mentioning vendors by name how they do and what they use are you for real mate like I said I don't want to sound like the bubble popper or the bad guy but come on man are you being seriously serious for real, now if say LE was reading this would they have a field day YES or NO please be truthfhul about this Q's answer ok look all I'm saying is if I was a vendor I would not want people talking about what i sell how I do it and what materials I use and my name too ok wake the F, up please and cos you stamp on threads with sensitive info makes you what I mean who the F, are you when vendors liberties are at steak ha I best shut up now before I rip you to shreds mr samesamebutdifferent cheeeezzz man


This guy has a serious attitude problem. Vendors beware. Do not sell to this guy. It will not be worth the agro!

Oh, and you see that little button next to Phoboss's avatar... The one that says [discourage].. Yeah, that's the one... Click that

;)

are you being seriously serious for real?  ;)

ahh n00bs, you gotta luv em but I couldn't eat a whole one.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: NW Nugz on March 03, 2013, 11:42 pm
... are you being seriously serious that this was helping the community by telling everyone how it's done and what they use when vendors say don't speak about such things nor  mention my techniques ha it even goes as far as mentioning vendors by name how they do and what they use are you for real mate like I said I don't want to sound like the bubble popper or the bad guy but come on man are you being seriously serious for real,...

Since we are talking about methods for providing top notch service to buyers, I don't mind being mentioned by name  :)
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: jentyb on March 25, 2013, 03:19 am
nice!!
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Joosy on March 25, 2013, 06:59 am
Anyone know whether dogs can detect Methylone? I'm thinking they wouldn't be trained to specifically target Methylone however with a similar chemical structure to MDMA it could have some of the same smells that are detected?
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: dopeboyz on April 14, 2013, 03:11 am
definitely helps with paranoia.. all vendors should take a look at this.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: DrCol on May 20, 2013, 07:49 am
Very useful guys - thank you - learning slowly and aiming high....want to give best service, protect my clients....

Doc
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Love Inc on May 20, 2013, 07:12 pm
Subbing to this very good thread :)

Do you guys think that dogs are our number one enemy? I believe that if a package fools the dogs, all should be fine and dandy, I really dont think the customs have nearly enough resources to go through the thousands of letters moving in and out every day. So if a dog can't smell it, and it looks pretty much like the rest of the mail I should be feeling fairly safe even ordering semi bulk?

I'm talking about international, inside EU.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: DigitalDong on June 01, 2013, 03:20 am
props to the OP +1 .. many thanks cheers to scandanavia :D
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: Not_A_Sheep on June 21, 2013, 10:54 am
Lol, awesome info, I really only read like 3 pages in so I dont know if anyone has said this, but If your really freaked out by dogs super noses that can "sniff a single molecule out of the air" apparently, lol just dust the inside of your package with benzocaine, it is not illegal and will knockout a dogs smell sensors for at least an hour or two. Simple fucking shit, quadruple/quintuple seal that shit with the Polypropolene bags, then dust that shit in benzocaine dawggg. Lol sounds simple, but dogs are simple creatures that just happen to have good noses, this aint some crazy star wars shit lol you can trick an organism in many different ways. Lol I know you can knockout a dogs sensors with cocaine, but ummmmmm probably better use benzocaine, or ketamine, drug dogs cant smell ketamine I do believe, but I would still go with the benzocaine =p
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: samesamebutdifferent on June 22, 2013, 12:17 pm
Lol, awesome info, I really only read like 3 pages in so I dont know if anyone has said this, but If your really freaked out by dogs super noses that can "sniff a single molecule out of the air" apparently, lol just dust the inside of your package with benzocaine, it is not illegal and will knockout a dogs smell sensors for at least an hour or two. Simple fucking shit, quadruple/quintuple seal that shit with the Polypropolene bags, then dust that shit in benzocaine dawggg. Lol sounds simple, but dogs are simple creatures that just happen to have good noses, this aint some crazy star wars shit lol you can trick an organism in many different ways. Lol I know you can knockout a dogs sensors with cocaine, but ummmmmm probably better use benzocaine, or ketamine, drug dogs cant smell ketamine I do believe, but I would still go with the benzocaine =p

Dogs give more false positives than actual detections but damn they are still a major pain in the ass!!
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: p0och on July 23, 2013, 05:37 am
impressive thread
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: thebakertrio on July 23, 2013, 08:48 am
Thanks! +1 to OP for starting this.
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: zookaa on July 23, 2013, 01:46 pm
subbing
+1 to OP
Title: Re: Packaging methods tested with actual trained dog
Post by: CamelNr1 on July 24, 2013, 11:04 pm
good thread, need to read another 6 pages :\ :)