Silk Road forums

Discussion => Newbie discussion => Topic started by: PinnacleGoods on July 23, 2013, 05:42 am

Title: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: PinnacleGoods on July 23, 2013, 05:42 am
So as a vendor after being longtime buyer, we have a unique perspective about the market on the road.  Not to say our perpsective is any more unique than anyone else's, just establishing that we know a fair bit more than our relatively noob stats here or there state.

Well, we got a new press from one of our alprazolam 1mg tablet suppliers, and we tested these extensively (10+ human testers, 3 benzo naieve, 3 heavy benzo tolerance, 4 in the middle) and confirmed their quality with our experiences.  We also received a confirmation from our supplier that this is the new Karnel style, because it won't get broken as much and will last longer because it's hard pressed.

From the start nobody knows what a Karnel brand benzo is, because they're not widely made.   But they make quality products.  We can't imagine that someone was totally stoked about getting a few of these older model Karnel footballs for some reason, and was then just totally put out when he got equally good, if not better, new Karnel 1mg tablets that have a few advantages from a logistics perspective.  We aren't the manufacturer, and we would like to point out that there are PLENTY of cases of brand names being counterfeited or of lower quality. Our honesty and dedication to client satisfaction speaks for itself if you have used our services before, opiates and benzos for USA market...

Just wondering, as we have only sold 30 something times, how big of a hit could this guy put to our ratings?  And would you give in to what you knew was basically blackmail.  Guy will get good quality product and the money if we give in!  It's a price we can afford, but it's the principle that once you allow that to happen people will come out of the woodworks.  We are happy to share our good fortune with our clients, as any of them can attest to, so it's really disappointing when someone gets so extreme over a small cosmetic difference in the product.

We thought that by giving trust & respect to everyone, while being security conscious and very aware of our surroundings, we would avoid almost all disputes.  We offered to ship some other small sample to this person for free, because we're like that (as a few can attest to) to make up for any hard feelings or lack of satisfaction.  But guy said there's nothing he wants from us - no 15mg roxis no 10mg vals, no 15mg midazolam, no dilaudid, no ms contin... nothing at all.. Dayum.. What would you do in this situation?
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: cryngie on July 23, 2013, 06:09 am
Sounds to me like they think you are trying to rip them by selling them fake/counterfit pills even though they are just an updated version with benefits as you said, the thing is you can only tell what pills are like after taking them but they have looked at it gone doesn't look the same old ones were good so these wont be.                                         

\Not to sure what you can really do apart from if they haven't finalized cancel transaction cop the BTC loss and never deal with them again

  I had the same thing today i ordered genuine pfizer xanax 2mg bars but when arrived i noticed they had a different imprint on them then all the others ive had (i have had prescriptions and bought from pharmacy) but after a bit of webing turns out they changed the imprint so finalized and 5/5

So are they threatening bad feedback
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: Fourfan on July 23, 2013, 06:15 am
If the ratings system works here like it does everywhere else, at 30 glowing reviews one bad one won't hurt you. However, if something like only 1-5 people have given reviews, this person could hurt your score for a while. But don't give in. I'd suggest sending this guys info to a senior mod or someone with clout here that can help you out. Maybe even DPR could help? I dunno, the guy seems kinda busy, but the other guys might be able to help.

If you don't want to do that, you really only have the option to pay this guy off or hope the ratings hit isn't as severe as you may think it will be. Or hope that he just doesn't do it and moves on. But I truly believe giving in this one time will spread the word your an easy target, so I hope you don't pay him off.
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: PinnacleGoods on July 23, 2013, 06:21 am
Thanks much for the feedback, cryngie...  They come across as maybe thinking they might be counterfeit pills, but this can be disproved by a number of people who have purchased these tablets from the PinnacleGoods vendor account recently. So it's not just us saying these are good, it's our customers and more than just one or two but all of them :D

We were a little put off when our supplier surprised us with the new tabs, but they provided evidence that they were legit that was satisfactory, which we offered to pass on to this buyer (blister packs & boxes with the names & descriptions on them) but the buyer had zero interest in this offer...  Which makes us think there might be more at play here if they won't accept even looking at evidence that they're legit pills...

We've gotten lots of xanax that had the right imprint but were bunk, lots of ONAX and GG249 bars, and plenty of brand name 1mg tablets are crap as well, because they're a really big target for counterfeiters.  Counterfeiters aren't going to come after these tiny pharmacies that operate in parts of the world they've never been to... We just can't see that someone trusted the triangle K of Karnel so much and have zero trust for something that we can show comes from Karnel, and that plenty of people (not just us) will speak to the quality of...

And Fourfan, we have had orders from at least 15 unique customers, probably more...  It just seems ridiculous that someone can crater a feedback score with one $30-40 order when 30+ orders for 1000s of USD have gone totally smoothly 5/5s...  I don't want to be a target at all, so I think I can't give in.

So would you give in to their demand to get $30-40 back, and take a loss about that size?  Again we fear it setting a precedent for others to come after us.  We would much rather stand our ground, and pay what we would in that blackmail to our loyal customers as free items included with their regular orders :)  But we don't want our feedback rep to take a hit, so, any advice is appreciated.
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: charlie_kelly on July 23, 2013, 06:25 am
im gonna go ahead and say fuck that guy if he doesn't understand the situation after your explained it reasonably well.
also the sr rating system is not good at all imho that is why that bad rating will probably hurt. personally my lower bound is at 95% positive ratings but it only factors into whether I will do a first purchase. Many vendors have unjustifiably high ratings.

edit:
posted before your reply.
well bad feedback from a 40$ order gotta hurt...how about offering a partial refund? that should remedy the situation.
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: PinnacleGoods on July 23, 2013, 06:35 am
After we offered anything from the treasure chest (dilaudid, roxis, ms contin, alprazolam, diazepam, midazolam, etc) and that was denied, we said take it up with Resolution Center for most appropriate resolution for the both of us.  Because I don't want to set a precedent of paying outside of the resolution center.... Especially when I ALREADY offered to give free product worth at least $15 and got flat out a refusal / no interest in anything but money back type reply...
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: jcutler215 on July 23, 2013, 09:00 pm
This vendor is speaking of me...Let me just tell everyone the whole story and we can see what everyone thinks.

First off, I have been a member of SR for 9 months and have 61 transactions with 0% auto finalize rate and 0% refund rate. I am not out to scam anyone and I usually don't post in forums but made an exception for this vendor because I really feel like people need to know what happened.

I placed an order with PinnacleGoods on July 17th for 1 mg xanax footballs. The listing read "1mg Alprazolam, purple football shape marked with a K in a triangle indicating the tablets are made by Karnel Labs. They are known for great quality, give these a try!"

I received a message from PG on July 20th stating "We have shipped your order. We received new 1mg alprazolam tablets, that are in the picture in this listing: http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad/item/85dfbf9f1d

They are not Karnel brand, and do not look like purple footballs. They are a light purple lavender color, and have no markings. But they have been tested and are STRONG. We estimate they have over 1mg alprazolam per tablet.

We may have Karnel brand in the future, but for right now we have these :) They are just as good if not better than the Karnel tablets. They are less identifiable to LE types, and less prone to breaking while in transit.

Please contact us with any questions, thank you for your support.

Thank you

Pinnacle Goods Group"


I just thought this was a message saying my order shipped and informing me of new product.

So I receive my order and it was not the Karnel purple footballs. It was the new lavendar pills they messaged me about and apparently thats what the message said according to PinnacleGoods...but I don't see anything in there stating that those lavendar pills have been shipped INSTEAD of the ones I ordered. Even if it did though, it would still have been too late. They say "We HAVE SHIPPED your order" past tense used there. The product was already on it's way. If I had been messaged before the product shipped and been informed that what was advertised was not actually what I was getting I could have just said to refund
me at that point because I am not interested and no one would be out of product or money. I just don't take pills I can't identify. Had a really bad situation with some unidentifiable product once and after that I always said never again.

So anyway I messaged PinnacleGoods asking why I didn't get the product I ordered. They messaged back apologizing and asking what could be done to make me happy... so I asked for a refund and explained that I don't take pills that I can't identify and since I have no need for any other product they offer, I did not want anything else sent to me. Just because I am buying one type of pill does not mean that I do them all- is it so unbelievable that I didn't want anything else?

PinnacleGoods then told me to go to the resolution center because they can prove that it is Kernal and I should just take them because no one else has complained. Well let's refer back to the oringal message....it literally says "They are not Karnel brand, and do not look like purple footballs." So they just flat out lied to me and I don't care if no one else has complained...that doesn't make this right!

At that point PinnacleGoods also updated their profile page to say that I was trying to "blackmail" them and that they would give bonuses/freebies to whoever defended them in the forum. I don't understand how I was blackmailing them, but maybe they just don't understand the definition of the word because all I did was answer their question of what would make me happy. Once I saw the update on the profile page I did message him saying this that I would take this to the resolution center and then share my experience on the forums. I did NOT say I will leave negative if you don't do what I say...I simply stated (after he already said I blackmailed him) that I was going to share my experience on the forums...which I have every right to do no matter the situation/outcome of any transaction.

PinnacleGoods also went and changed the listing to say that the lavendar ones are karnel....They didn't change the 2nd part though, that still says "We may have Karnel brand in the future, but for right now we have these :)"

The simple fact of this all is PinnacleGoods did not send me what I ordered and was not willing to fix their mistake.....and then they lied to me!
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: cryngie on July 24, 2013, 01:05 am
This vendor is speaking of me...Let me just tell everyone the whole story and we can see what everyone thinks.

First off, I have been a member of SR for 9 months and have 61 transactions with 0% auto finalize rate and 0% refund rate. I am not out to scam anyone and I usually don't post in forums but made an exception for this vendor because I really feel like people need to know what happened.

I placed an order with PinnacleGoods on July 17th for 1 mg xanax footballs. The listing read "1mg Alprazolam, purple football shape marked with a K in a triangle indicating the tablets are made by Karnel Labs. They are known for great quality, give these a try!"

I received a message from PG on July 20th stating "We have shipped your order. We received new 1mg alprazolam tablets, that are in the picture in this listing: http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad/item/85dfbf9f1d

They are not Karnel brand, and do not look like purple footballs. They are a light purple lavender color, and have no markings. But they have been tested and are STRONG. We estimate they have over 1mg alprazolam per tablet.

We may have Karnel brand in the future, but for right now we have these :) They are just as good if not better than the Karnel tablets. They are less identifiable to LE types, and less prone to breaking while in transit.

Please contact us with any questions, thank you for your support.

Thank you

Pinnacle Goods Group"


I just thought this was a message saying my order shipped and informing me of new product.

So I receive my order and it was not the Karnel purple footballs. It was the new lavendar pills they messaged me about and apparently thats what the message said according to PinnacleGoods...but I don't see anything in there stating that those lavendar pills have been shipped INSTEAD of the ones I ordered. Even if it did though, it would still have been too late. They say "We HAVE SHIPPED your order" past tense used there. The product was already on it's way. If I had been messaged before the product shipped and been informed that what was advertised was not actually what I was getting I could have just said to refund
me at that point because I am not interested and no one would be out of product or money. I just don't take pills I can't identify. Had a really bad situation with some unidentifiable product once and after that I always said never again.

So anyway I messaged PinnacleGoods asking why I didn't get the product I ordered. They messaged back apologizing and asking what could be done to make me happy... so I asked for a refund and explained that I don't take pills that I can't identify and since I have no need for any other product they offer, I did not want anything else sent to me. Just because I am buying one type of pill does not mean that I do them all- is it so unbelievable that I didn't want anything else?

PinnacleGoods then told me to go to the resolution center because they can prove that it is Kernal and I should just take them because no one else has complained. Well let's refer back to the oringal message....it literally says "They are not Karnel brand, and do not look like purple footballs." So they just flat out lied to me and I don't care if no one else has complained...that doesn't make this right!

At that point PinnacleGoods also updated their profile page to say that I was trying to "blackmail" them and that they would give bonuses/freebies to whoever defended them in the forum. I don't understand how I was blackmailing them, but maybe they just don't understand the definition of the word because all I did was answer their question of what would make me happy. Once I saw the update on the profile page I did message him saying this that I would take this to the resolution center and then share my experience on the forums. I did NOT say I will leave negative if you don't do what I say...I simply stated (after he already said I blackmailed him) that I was going to share my experience on the forums...which I have every right to do no matter the situation/outcome of any transaction.

PinnacleGoods also went and changed the listing to say that the lavendar ones are karnel....They didn't change the 2nd part though, that still says "We may have Karnel brand in the future, but for right now we have these :)"

The simple fact of this all is PinnacleGoods did not send me what I ordered and was not willing to fix their mistake.....and then they lied to me!

Has vendor offered to send you same pills in packaging so you can verify whether or not supplied pills are legit or not as vendor says they have?
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: jcutler215 on July 24, 2013, 03:48 am
Well I just checked my messages and they sent one today saying they have offered to send them in the box/blister packs. They did not mention this previously, just that they had the original packaging so they can guarantee they are karnel, but did not offer to actually send them to me in the box/blister packs. I would accept this as a resolution as it would allow me to verify the product.
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: jcutler215 on July 24, 2013, 02:34 pm
So I messaged the vendor saying that I would accept him sending the pills in the original packaging and his response was simply "Take it to the resolution center." So did they ever have any intention on doing this?
This makes me feel like they actually can't confirm they are what they claim they are.  Why offer me that then say no when I accept??
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: MedicineWoman on July 25, 2013, 02:13 am
If they're simply threatening to leave bad feedback, rely on your good feedback to compensate. Most folks look closely at bad feedback to see if there's madness underneath. They also compare it against the vast body of good feedback.
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: jcutler215 on July 25, 2013, 04:01 am
If they're simply threatening to leave bad feedback, rely on your good feedback to compensate. Most folks look closely at bad feedback to see if there's madness underneath. They also compare it against the vast body of good feedback.

I have not threatened bad feedback and as my previous post states the vendor did eventually message me saying he would offer to send the pills in the original packaging to prove what they are. I messaged him back accepting that as a resolution as I just wanted to be able to verify the product. Since he messaged me one day saying they weren't Karnel and then next saying that they were I would feel much more comfortable seeing them in the original packaging.

However, instead of resolving this between us and doing what he said he would do, I guess he lied about that as well because he still told me to take it to the resolution center.
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: jcutler215 on July 25, 2013, 09:53 am
Pinnacle just sent me a message saying he would not be sending me a blister pack as it would probably just end in me leaving negative feedback regardless. Pinnacle's unwillingness to prove these are from karnel further reinforces my suspicion that these are in fact home-made pills, probably made with questionable ingredients and a pill press. If these are in fact manufactured by karnel then why can't I find them on their website? Why has no one else on SR, bluelight, or drugs-forum ever heard of them? Maybe they are made with quality ingredients by people that know what they're doing, but my whole point in ordering pills from the original listing is that I recognize is because I DONT BUY PRODUCTS I CAN'T IDENTIFY. I had a very bad experience a while back taking something that was "supposed" to be one thing, but ended up being something entirely different. I cannot trust a vendor who 1) is relatively new, 2) has given me conflicting information in several different messages and 3) has the audacity to send me something different without any approval on my part.

I have no choice but to take this to the resolution center. If anyone has any other suggestions or input please let me know. I have never had a problem on SR spanning 60 transactions over the past year. I hope this can be resolved as it is very stressful and I don't want it negatively impacting my reputation with vendors and future transactions.

-JC
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: PinnacleGoods on July 25, 2013, 02:54 pm
This vendor is not going to 'chase good money after bad'.

Here's all of the private messages between jcutler215 and PinnacleGoods, decide for yourself, audience:

Them:

I placed an order for the 1mg xanax when you still had purple footballs by Karnel labs but received the new xanax you have listed that has no markings. I am NOT happy. I do not order pills with no markings that I cannot identify. I expect to receive what I ordered and do not understand why I was not contacted before the product shipped to see if I still even wanted to move forward with the order since you were changing the product!! This is not good customer service!


Us:

We contacted you at the time of shipping, that was the best we could do without delaying shipping. These tablets have been thoroughly vetted by our staff, and about 10 people here sampled them. We have had nothing but very positive reviews from the other buyers. We apologize, we were surprised and upset with our supplier, but there was nothing we could do about what we got. We do not have the Karnel available, and we did mention this to everyone before we shipped, but we did not want to delay shipment.

What would you like us to do to resolve this issue? You tell us what we can do and we will make you happy. Please give these tablets a chance, they are legit. Flushing them down the toilet would be a waste of good product, try it and you will see for yourself. Again we apologize for having to change the brand of tablet.


Us:

Everyone who ordered these tablets during the time you did got the same message at the same time, and had their product shipped at the same time. We got no complaints and plenty of 'thank you for the heads up', and LOTS of good reviews. But we understand you want a specific brand, OK, let us know what we can do to make this right by you. These are definitely 1mg alprazolam tablets, and they are, as a matter of fact, manufactured by Karnel in Honduras. Karnel have changed their design, as our supplier has informed us, they provided us with the box and the blister packs. Will this help alleviate your concerns? These are the tablets that everyone who ordered before and after you got.


Them:

I appreciate your message and the fact that you didn't want my shipment to be delayed....but your message is very misleading. It says "We have shipped your order" Past tense is used...meaning I cannot cancel the order, it has already been shipped. I would have much preferred a later shipment with the correct product then to be blind sided when I receive the incorrect product. I say blind sided because the message below does not actually say that the pills I ordered are not what shipped. The way the message reads is that you are telling me my ordered shipped and then also, by the way, you have some new xanax available. It did not say we have shipped these new ones INSTEAD of what you ordered. If I would have gotten a message before the product actually shipped, asking if I wanted to move forward with the new product I could have told you to not ship it and just refund me and you would not be out of any product and I would not be out of any money.
I really would like a refund as I do not plan on taking these, do not have a need for any other item you stock, and do not know anyone who wants the pills you sent. If they were some other xanax that had markings and I could verify what it is, where it came from etc, then I would have been ok with that. I understand there are others that had no problem with this change but I had a similar experience with an unidentifiable product and it turned out to be a really bad experience and as a result I no longer take things I can't identify.


Us:

Please open up case with resolution center. We posted an announcement about these tablets before we sent the message to you. We updated the listing. We specified Karnel brand, and these are Karnel brand, we can prove this. Karnel changed the look is a little. Many have taken them and can attest to the quality, but if you want to take it to the resolution center that is the best choice to get a fair outcome for us all.

We have products to offer: 15mg oxy that are marked well, 4mg dilaudid that work well and are marked, and ms contin 30mg that are marked and work well, and we can give you some of the older karnel tablets although we do not have 30 we can supply you with what we have of the old stock. Actually Karnel has not been making the triangle K tablets for some time, they have switched to this tablet, and you will see plenty of reviews of this tablet by our customers, all got the new tablet only you complain.

Thank you

Pinnacle Goods Group


Them:

Just got your message about updating your profile...this is ridiculous...so unprofessional....YOU DID NOT SEND ME WHAT I ORDERED! How do you think I'm trying to scam you?! I really don't understand...I'm not trying to say I didn't receive the product?! You admitted you sent the wrong thing! Just because I am the only one that has a problem with it does not mean it was ok to do what you did! I am very surprised by this....you can see that the details of this transaction clearly state that my order was placed on July 17 and the listing clearly states the update was done on July 19th....2 days after I placed my order. Also, the original listing specifically describes the pill and here is a quote from the text that is still there... "1mg Alprazolam, purple football shape marked with a K in a triangle indicating the tablets are made by Karnel Labs." So that is what I placed my order for. I don't understand how there can be any argument over what I was supposed to receive...??? And in reference to your comment about posting an announcement about these before you sent the message to me...where is that announcement?? Because the July 18th update on your profile page states NOTHING about changing the product.....Also, you say in the previous message that all other orders have actually received the ones without markings, so why has the item not been advertised correctly? You have been a vendor for 20-something days and if that listing was always for these ones without markings, how come you originally posted the incorrect information and have been falsely advertising them all this time???
I have been a member for 9 months, have a total of 61 transactions with 0% auto finalize rate and 0% refund rate...I'm not trying to scam anyone I just want what was advertised when I placed my order! Just because you can prove that they are karnel does not make up for the fact that they are still not the ones with the K in a triangle that were advertised when I placed the order. If you are not willing to fix your mistake though, that's fine..it's all about the simple fact that you did not send me what was advertised, you just sent me something I didn't order...so I will take that simple fact to the resolution center and see what they think about that and then be sure to post on the forums about my experience. In fact, since you love updating the profile so much why dont just you copy and paste our entire conversation in your profile?? I think it will explain a lot.

PS- Your argument that I am the only one who complained is the exact reason why you will always have poor customer service. You are a business ...doesn't matter than you are on a black market, you are still a business providing a service for a consumer and just because others didn't complain (probably because they feel like you are doing them a favor by proving them with drugs) doesn't mean that what you did was not wrong! Can you imagine what would happen if I placed an order through...let's say amazon.com...for a french coffee press but they sent me a percolator instead.....just because they both make coffee would not mean that I would accept the wrong item! I want what I paid for and I'm sure amazon would make it right because that's what a good business does.
***Also bribing people to defend you in the forums is just as bad as the "blackmail" you are accusing me of!


Them:

Just read through the listing page again for the xanax is this is copied from there..."We may have Karnel brand in the future, but for right now we have these :) "
and that is also in the 1st message you sent me below talking about these pills.....Now how come you say on the listing that you may have karnel in the future BUT right now you have these...and then you try and then you try and tell me they ARE karnel...Why wouldn't you have put that they are karnel in the listing?! the listing is actually saying that they are NOT karnel!! so which is it?! You have obviously lied at some point....


Us:

Our writing is by more than one person, so some parts may be contradictory based on what one person knew at one time vs what someone else knew at one time

We are done replying to you except through the resolution center. We have offered you proof that these are karnel in the form of blistered packs and the actual box. We can't do more than that.


Thank You

Pinnacle Goods Group


Them:

This is the first time you have said anything about actually sending them to me in the original packaging. You mentioned you had the packaging and that's how you know they are real and asked me if that alleviated my concerns but didn't actually offer to send them in that. I would accept this as a resolution as it would allow me to verify the product, which has been my concern.

Us:

"We have offered you proof that these are karnel in the form of blistered packs and the actual box." is not "actually offer to send them in that". We offer picture proof.

Already our customers report that these are good tablets, that is proof enough in our opinion for us to buy them. Every other buyer receiving the same tablets liked them, they even request these new tablets instead of the old triangle K Karnels!

Our rep here is spotless, but we are not going to be blackmailed to keep our rep from being damaged. Unless we let you keep our good drugs and get back your money, you will give us negative feedback. Or now you give us the option of sending even more of the same product to you, that you will say is unacceptable, because we are sure you will still refuse to release funds from escrow, and give us negative feedback.

We are not paying you for feedback, our loyal customers know that we deliver quality goods with excellent customer service. We have only stopped short of notifying other vendors that jcutler215 is a problem buyer via vendor forum / blacklist. Should this not be resolved to our satisfaction, we will submit your information to the vendor round table for inclusion on the blacklist.

We never send product to you again. Even if we sent you a blister pack of these same tablets, we are sure you will find a reason to complain. Take it to the resolution center. We offer 0% refund and no reship to you because you got the product we ship and there is no problem with our product.

Thank You

Pinnacle Goods Group


Them:

That is fine. I've already seen several posts on the forums questioning your integrity as a seller. Several vendors have called for you to send blister packs to resolve the issue, but obviously you can't do that because you are selling fake home-made pills.

I have a spotless transaction history, and the facts show that I am in the right. I will take this to the resolution center, and the money will be tied up in escrow indefinitely. I have several other vendors that I have used many times over the past year that will accept my orders regardless of what some amateur, unprofessional vendor has so say.

Looking at the forums I can see your reputation is already starting to waver. People are asking more questions about you then they are of me. I have offered you the opportunity to resolve this matter but you cannot prove these are legitimate medications other than providing lip service that will not count as evidence when reviewed by the moderators. Good luck as we enter the resolution phase because you will need it!

These blurbs tell it all:

Them:

"Just because you can prove that they are karnel does not make up for the fact that they are still not the ones with the K in a triangle that were advertised when I placed the order."

Us:

"Even if we sent you a blister pack of these same tablets, we are sure you will find a reason to complain."

-----

jcutler215, this ain't amazon.com.  jcutler215, we got many messed up shipments from orders we made at amazon.com.  jcutler215, amazon.com doesn't always resolve those problems fairly in our opinion.  jcutler215, if you yell at people you will get them to not like you, and they will not want to work with you.

-----

Why should we chase good money after bad, jcutler215 has demonstrated that they don't care if they are Karnel in a box or not, they just care that they get more of the tablets for free.  We offered photo evidence.  You could ask for a picture with any random thing you want next to the tablets in blisters so you know we took it when you asked for it.  But no, you yelled at us and called us names.  We don't want to work with you in any way, shape, or form

We have been telling you to take this up with the resolution center for this entire week, but still you have not.. Wonder why that could be?

-----

We will snap a few pictures of the tablets in blisters, SURE.  But since that is not acceptable to jcutler215 it doesn't solve the problem (even through it should in our opinion, and apparently in your opinion too)...  This is a big waste of our time.

We went from 'what can we do to help you?' to 'your demands are unreasonable, go away', because jcutler215's demands ARE unreasonable.  We started by trying to be as diplomatic as possible.  When it became apparent that this was not appreciated and would not lead to a resolution, we started recommending that jcutler215 take it to the resolution center.

Why haven't they taken it to the resolution center, after being asked to take it to the resolution center so many times?
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: PinnacleGoods on July 25, 2013, 02:59 pm
Has vendor offered to send you same pills in packaging so you can verify whether or not supplied pills are legit or not as vendor says they have?

Vendor has offered to send pictures of pills in packaging.

Vendor is not sending more pills to jcutler215 because they stated "Just because you can prove that they are karnel does not make up for the fact that they are still not the ones with the K in a triangle that were advertised when I placed the order."
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: PinnacleGoods on July 25, 2013, 03:03 pm
I guess jcutler215 can 'divine' a fake ONAX 2mg 'bar' from a real ONAX 2mg 'bar', and a 'fake' 1mg PD Xanax from a 'real' 1mg PD Xanax.  These are WIDELY COUNTERFEITED TABLETS!  You want a good looking counterfeit over a plain looking legit pill?  Of course you do.
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: oldskoolhead on July 25, 2013, 04:01 pm
i have to agree with the vendor here, just because you get a tablet which looks genuine doesnt mean it is, and just because you get a tablet that is blank doesnt mean its not good, the proof is in the pudding and you have 30 puddings there, you could resolve this matter by simply trying one, because lets face it, you cant guarantee anything when buying illicit drugs, appearances mean nothing, reputation of the vendor has more meaning than what was stamped on the pill, if the pills were fake and pressed up in a back street then they could simply have pressed them up to look like the real deal just as easily as not, so why not, it could be because the vendor has no control over the appearance because they are in fact genuine, if the vendor did have control then it would make more sense to press the recognised pills, it is not difficult to take a mold from the original and cast the tool to press a pill, in fact it would be easier than casting a new tool and would make more sense, given the choice better quality or better appearance i know which i would take without hesitation..........
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: PinnacleGoods on July 25, 2013, 04:02 pm
The most ironic thing about all of this to us, is that we also sell 99% powder fentanyl citrate as our main business, just oos at the moment :( People are raving about this 'product they can not identify' as we are sure they are not doing thorough enough tests to say with 100% certainty that the product is indeed 99% fentanyl citrate because those tests can cost a bunch of money and may expose the person getting the test done to targeting by LE.

So, to sum it up, our product that nobody can confirm is good that they are putting straight into their vein or sniffing is awesome by all accounts.  The ones that you put in your mouth, that we describe and update customers about as quickly as possible and to the best of our abilities, are awesome by all accounts.  They are by no means 'homemade' but are made by one of the largest manufacturers in C. America, and are legitimate pharma tablets of the type and strength specified in all instances, which are subject to stringent QC and QA both in the pharmacy and by our staff and associates.

We stand by the quality of our product, and can not see taking on a loss that will force us to offset it by charging the good customers of ours more money, or just straight taking a loss for no reason other than unreasonable demands by a pedantic abusive not nice person more concerned with seeing a triangle with a K in it than getting legit goods.


Thank You for Your Support!

Pinnacle Goods Group
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: PinnacleGoods on July 25, 2013, 04:05 pm
i have to agree with the vendor here, just because you get a tablet which looks genuine doesnt mean it is, and just because you get a tablet that is blank doesnt mean its not good, the proof is in the pudding and you have 30 puddings there, you could resolve this matter by simply trying one, because lets face it, you cant guarantee anything when buying illicit drugs, appearances mean nothing, reputation of the vendor has more meaning than what was stamped on the pill, if the pills were fake and pressed up in a back street then they could simply have pressed them up to look like the real deal just as easily as not, so why not, it could be because the vendor has no control over the appearance because they are in fact genuine, if the vendor did have control then it would make more sense to press the recognised pills
...
 given the choice better quality or better appearance i know which i would take without hesitation..........

Didn't mean to cut you off in the middle there, just wanted to QFT this last bit!  THANK YOU this is our position exactly! So many buyers HAVE tried these and LOVED these, we would NEVER sell something we didn't thoroughly QC within our group :)

Your last sentence speaks volumes
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: Tessellated on July 25, 2013, 05:31 pm
In such situations I would refund the money and ask the buyer to go elsewhere next time. $40 is not worth damaging your feedback.

There was some ambiguity and a different product was sent. Regardless of how valid the product may be it is different so you might as well just eat the loss and be super clear with buyers in the future.

The buyer has a point about ordering a specific pill he knew and trusted and got something else. People choose their listings based on what is advertised, what may seem like a minor point to you could be the reason the buyer picked you. This thread cannot help your business.

If anything at all is different that what you describe you can expect people to complain. Just the way it goes.
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: PinnacleGoods on July 25, 2013, 06:02 pm
In such situations I would refund the money and ask the buyer to go elsewhere next time. $40 is not worth damaging your feedback.

There was some ambiguity and a different product was sent. Regardless of how valid the product may be it is different so you might as well just eat the loss and be super clear with buyers in the future.

The buyer has a point about ordering a specific pill he knew and trusted and got something else. People choose their listings based on what is advertised, what may seem like a minor point to you could be the reason the buyer picked you. This thread cannot help your business.

If anything at all is different that what you describe you can expect people to complain. Just the way it goes.

We have asked the buyer to go elsewhere.  Anyone who bring up this buyer to us, we ask to go elsewhere. We will not set a precedent that anyone can order anything from us and then demand their money back for it being slightly different than what they thought it would be.

The Karnel triangle K tablets aren't exactly well known, try and find things about them online. Many people have messaged us asking if they were legit.  More than have asked us if these new tablets are.  We can easily get them to show up on the pharmer.org pill identification page, we have been working with pharmer.org for years.  The buyer never said anything about 'wow I want some Karnel, these are great!', no buyer has done that.  We ship new karnel tablets, fresh ones straight from the factory, and we get shit on about it.  Read all the private messages, we did not omit anything, we asked what we could do to make it right short of letting them keep the product and get the money back.

There are plenty of counterfeit tablets that look legitimate.  Doesn't matter what the tablet looks like, matters what's inside of them.  If they got a knockoff tablet that looked exactly like what they want it to look like, would it be any better?  NO.  The factory updated their hardware, call them and ask.  We have.  Without abusing our position as a vendor who at one point in time had someones address and name, we will defend ourselves against anyone who tries to drag our name in the mud to blackmail us into giving them a goddamned thing.

How many sales have we made now for these same tablets to customers, and everyone who has taken them has agreed that they are good?  About 30-40?  30-40 say great, to 1 saying they won't even try them.  Hundreds have tried the same damn tablets in our areas, and thousands more in one of our homelands (Honduras).

Yeah this can't help sales, but fuck sales at the expense of hiding the truth.  We want our clients to know why we took a hit if we do.  And we don't need any more sales than we already have coming in, we already have more demand than supply.  We like the customers we have, we don't need new ones or fair-weather fans.  But bottom line is nobody gets to keep free drugs and doesn't have to pay UNLESS we want it to be like that - we will take them back!  But we do let people get things for free plenty of the time...

We have given away well over $200 in product or BTC in the short month as a vendor.  We do give people extra BTC in addition to the full amount they paid being returned from escrow when we have to cancel their order after more than 12 hours, to make up for any inconvenience it may have caused.  And we give away LOTS of free product as many can attest to, and as our feedback shows.  We are not going to have $30 extracted from us whenever someone decides they want to because they think they can get away with it.

We would much rather we have that $30 to give little bonuses to our good customers when we can.  Squeaky wheel gets kicked out of our universe, squeaky wheel does not get the grease with us!  Be a good, happy little wheel, and be nice with us, and we will do right by you every time.

There is always going to be the possibility for misunderstanding, and accusations of misrepresentations.  We represented our product as a generic 1mg alprazolam tablet, and it is just that.  We advertized the shape and color, and it is the same shape and color as described.  We listed the manufacturer, and their old stamp.  The manufacturer changed their process.  We have people who handle different aspects of the business, and initially the information we put out was not correct.  We corrected ourselves as quickly as possible, and did so in a public way.  We acted morally and in good faith throughout, and wanted to exceed this buyer's expectations.  But now we have resolved ourselves to the fact that we can't, we can lose money and set a bad precedent, or be very public about why we had to go to the resolution center and may end up taking a hit to our feedback.

Bottom line: we shipped generic 1mg alprazolam tablets, made by karnel, that closely but not perfectly matched our description, in as timely a manner as possible.  We acted in good faith, and had nothing but our customers' best interests in mind.
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: Tessellated on July 25, 2013, 06:05 pm
Okay, your call.
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: PinnacleGoods on July 25, 2013, 06:15 pm
We do appreciate the advice, Tessellated, but we want to play it another way.

I's not a call we want to have to make, because it isn't a bunch of money, it's more the principle of the thing.  And the attitude we got off them immediately.  Approaching this with a good attitude on the buyer's part would have made all the difference in the world.

We approached this from a 'what can we do to help' angle, and only ruled out refunding 100% of their money and not having them return the tablets.  Apparently that's the only thing they will accept, a 100% refund and to keep all of the tablets.  Can't have that.  Return money = you must return tablets.  That is in bounds  Not returning tablets = you must pay, that is out of bounds.. So we have been asking that they go to resolution center all week, but they won't... So we wait.
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: cryngie on July 25, 2013, 06:32 pm
I was able to find these pills in about 10mins yesterday full documentation they used to have K with a triangle now they don't from the manufacturer There are some dodgy once going around from what i read but they have the markings on both sides a little research goes a long way
I looked it up before i commented so i knew if the story was legit which it is so the only thing i can think is if it was a dodgy vendor they would have paid him off to keep quiet so they could pedal some crap to other people which is the exact opposite if what they did ,started a thread and keep posting in it why would you do that if you sold bunk pills
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: PinnacleGoods on July 25, 2013, 08:08 pm
I was able to find these pills in about 10mins yesterday full documentation they used to have K with a triangle now they don't from the manufacturer There are some dodgy once going around from what i read but they have the markings on both sides a little research goes a long way
I looked it up before i commented so i knew if the story was legit which it is so the only thing i can think is if it was a dodgy vendor they would have paid him off to keep quiet so they could pedal some crap to other people which is the exact opposite if what they did ,started a thread and keep posting in it why would you do that if you sold bunk pills

+1 if I could, friend.  A little research and logical thinking does go a long way indeed.

Good point, why on the face of God's green Earth would we open a thread about the legitimacy of our product if we were selling bunk goods?  We would want the legitimacy of our product to be the furthest thing from anyone's mind..
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: jcutler215 on July 26, 2013, 01:41 am
In such situations I would refund the money and ask the buyer to go elsewhere next time. $40 is not worth damaging your feedback.

There was some ambiguity and a different product was sent. Regardless of how valid the product may be it is different so you might as well just eat the loss and be super clear with buyers in the future.

The buyer has a point about ordering a specific pill he knew and trusted and got something else. People choose their listings based on what is advertised, what may seem like a minor point to you could be the reason the buyer picked you. This thread cannot help your business.

If anything at all is different that what you describe you can expect people to complain. Just the way it goes.

^ Why is this hard for some to understand?!

I don't get why vendor couldn't have simply messaged me to give me the option of trying the new one or cancelling the order before any product got sent....then we wouldn't even be in this situation.

Anyway, In reference as to why I have not taken this to resolution yet is because I have NEVER had to do this and the only way I know how is to click "resolve" in my order screen, however I cannot do this for another 5 days. Is there another way to do this so I don't have to wait 5 more days? Do I use the "report this vendor" option?
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: k132s216 on July 26, 2013, 02:16 am
Jesus christ dude just take one of the pills. What do you think is going to be in them, cyanide?
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: cryngie on July 26, 2013, 03:32 am
Jesus christ dude just take one of the pills. What do you think is going to be in them, cyanide?

Why wouldnt they spend 10mins researching and see manufacturer has altered pills (because then they couldnt keep the pills and get there money back)
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: jcutler215 on July 26, 2013, 05:09 am
Jesus christ dude just take one of the pills. What do you think is going to be in them, cyanide?

Why wouldnt they spend 10mins researching and see manufacturer has altered pills (because then they couldnt keep the pills and get there money back)
I have researched them and cannot find anything...Cryngie can you please share the link that shows these new pills are in fact the new design from karnel?
It's not like I'm not trying to work this the vendor. I agreed to try and resolve this by taking pinnacle up on their offer of sending them in the packs.
Cryngie, you were the one that pointed out that pinnacle said he offered this so obviously you understood from the his post that he was willing to send them, but when I take him up on the offer for that, all of a sudden that's not what he really meant...
He also says he can send pictures of them in the packaging but where are those?

Again, I just don't get why vendor couldn't have simply messaged me to give me the option of trying the new one or cancelling the order before any product got sent....then we wouldn't even be in this situation. I was told by his listing what to expect and that's not what I received, bottom line.... I am trying to work with him on this but he won't do anything to help verify they are what he says they are.

k132s216- I guess you didn't read my original post...I had a very bad experience with some unidentifiable product, someone told me it was one thing but it wasn't and I end up in the hospital. So that fact that he has once said to me they are not Karnel then the next day that they are, I would like some confirmation as to what they really are and I don't think that's asking too much.

However it's obvious pinnacle isn't going to do anything...so is there any other way to take this to resolution more quickly or do I have to wait 5 days until I can click "resolve"?
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: PinnacleGoods on July 26, 2013, 05:33 am
Jesus christ dude just take one of the pills. What do you think is going to be in them, cyanide?

Why wouldnt they spend 10mins researching and see manufacturer has altered pills (because then they couldnt keep the pills and get there money back)
I have researched them and cannot find anything...Cryngie can you please share the link that shows these new pills are in fact the new design from karnel?
It's not like I'm not trying to work this the vendor. I agreed to try and resolve this by taking pinnacle up on their offer of sending them in the packs.

1.  Research our goddamned feedback, people have taken these and been fine.  We will never send you more tablets because we are not going to risk chasing a 'good' resolution after getting such a foul reaction.

2. NEVER offered to send packs.  We put up exactly what was said in PM so everyone can read for themselves exactly what we offered and it was NOT sending you packs.

Total entitled spoiled complainer and/or scammer logic is what we see: "the vendor needs to send me the actual blisters of the new press even though I never got a blister pack of the older obscure pressed pill they were selling, I don't want to believe the other 30 people who bought and took the same stuff that it is good I will be a hardliner, not try to find solutions, refuse to return these tablets for my money back, and refuse to take any of the tablets even though over 30 other people on this random forum I trust to get drugs on took and vetted for them, and instead I am going to bitch and moan and hope the vendor gives in to my implied threat of bad feedback"

Sorry but we are NEVER gonna send anything more to you, it's just too risky given the recent history with you.  Just because you ended up in the hospital from drugs is reason enough for us to stay away from you, seriously...  Nothing personal but we don't want heat and where there's interaction with authorities there's heat...

What you should do is suck it up and trust the 30+ other people who got the same thing and try it or get someone you know who will to try it! Then realize it's legit just like we said, finalize and leave no comment and 5/5 feedback. We did what we were supposed to do to the best of our abilities, and in good faith at all times.  Let this thing go and relax, take a xanax man :P
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: jcutler215 on July 26, 2013, 06:44 am
1) I have looked through your feedback but no one notes if what they received are the unmarked new ones or the old ones so how is that supposed to help?
2) Your posts here made people think you did offer to send them in packaging and this message "We have offered you proof that these are karnel in the form of blistered packs and the actual box." sure makes it sound like you did. But ok, lets say that's not what you mean...then where are the pictures? Also I see you updated your profile to say that I am demanding for you to send a bunch of pills for free...it doesn't have to be a bunch just leave a few in the blisters and the box so I can tell that is there original packaging. You're obviously spreading lies about me, this is not professional for a vendor to do. You posted our conversation and not once did I demand that you had to send 30 more pills, And as far as releasing my name if anyone searches for you they will know it's me, Its not like I'm hiding.
Cryngie said "if it was a dodgy vendor they would have paid him off to keep quiet so they could pedal some crap to other people which is the exact opposite if what they did ,started a thread and keep posting in it why would you do that if you sold bunk pills"
Well would I waste all my time to do this for $40?! my god that's nothing...it's the principle of the whole thing, I was sent the wrong product and vendor lied at some point about what they are and wont give any sort of confirmation.
3)Check my posts and see if I have ever complained about anyone else.
4)As far as you saying I never got the blisters of the ones I thought I was ordering, yes that is true as I have never ordered from you before but the others are marked and can be verified/researched.
5)And I mentioned before I don't take all kinda of drugs or else I would have taken you up on your offer to send me a different product. So because I had a bad experience when I was younger with something someone told me was a benzo, but turned out not to be you think I need to be avoided?! I am much more careful for this reason and that's what I'm trying to do is avoid a situation like this. And ever since that one experience never had any problems because of the precautions I take.
6)I don't know anyone I can even ask to try these out for me and you you should suck it up and at least admit you made a mistake...You did not send what was advertised and did not give me the chance to tell you if I even wanted the new product.
You asked in the beginning what would make me happy and you will make it right...when I said refund because I didn't need other products, you said take it to resolution...you didn't offer partial refund as someone suggested and you are not willing to show proof of any kind as you claimed and I told you I was willing to accept.
Trust me after all this I would LOVE to take a xanax and chill after having to worry about this for the past few days...but damn just thinking about taking one of these actually gives me more anxiety! Just give me some sort of confirmation PLEEEASE so we can be done with this! Where are the pictures??
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: str8trippin2 on July 26, 2013, 12:28 pm
before he was sending out the footballs with K, now they got switched up so he sent out new lavender ones with score on both sides....he never said that he NEVER sent out K footballs, only that he ran out, and figured ppl getting diff version of what they ordered, is better than them getting order cancelled + ppl upset about that. I too got my order of them, and mine was swapped in transit too, but im gonna at least give them a whirl before i bag on them, i get your point, but you gotta see where hes coming  from as a vendor right? trying to risk his freedom/sending you the closest thing possible, just to keep customers happy instead of telling them all "fuck off, im out, peace out".
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: anonymousasshit on July 28, 2013, 04:02 am
Pinnacle,

You seem to be open to all opinions, so I hope you will not be offended by mine.

I apparently ordered mine before you ran out because I had a great experience with you and got the K triangles that anyone who knows about any search engine could quickly look up, and when you do, I got pics of them and it mentioned that they were top notch.

Here is where I may or may not agree with you or the complainant:

Depends on whether he bought them to eat or to sell.  Where I am from no one, including myself would think about buying unmarked pills except my closest of friends, but they wouldn't buy any except personal quantity because they would know that most people would not want them.

If I was getting them for personal use, then I would have done my homework and tested them out.  If I was afraid of them being bunk, I would have waited on others feedback to come in.

However, if they were for sale, then I do see his point.  I would say that, in the future, you wait until you receive them before posting quantity.  You can always make a new listing that says "exactly" what the product looks like after you know your quantity you receive.  I never count on anything until it is in my hand.  Too many things can happen in life.

Note that I am not taking sides. I am actually basically taking both sides, saying depending on the persons plans for them as I have ordered unmarked pills before, though I knew they were unmarked and I couldn't move 5% of them and wound up taking them because I knew they were good.  That, plus other experiences with unmarked ones gives me my conclusion.  Although a blister pack is nice, it is known that there are bunk/low quality products that are marketed in blister packs.

Hope you two can come to an agreement that is satisfactory to you both!
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: StateProp on July 28, 2013, 05:19 am
Wow what a mess I mean honeys I'd say look "You pay for the shipping we'll send one it the blister pack and a copy on the pill box" This verifies the contents with minimal cost to you and him. Just a suggestion I mean I'd probably just take the hit of the shit review, if I was in your shoes and maybe add a disclaimer, I mean I understand his issue with em not being able to be identified thats a legitimate complaint but I feel like he escalated the situation by being insulting. There is a certain level respect that has to be established in a black market deal.

All the same I'll be checking out your shop lol, I guess no press is bad press. Feel free to buy my opinion like he had accused you of because it is most definitely for sale lol
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: PinnacleGoods on July 29, 2013, 08:12 am
We asked to have these tablets returned to us long ago.  They are in demand here, no problem going in this area.  But in this area we aren't so locked into the appearance of a 1mg xanax being a football, we get mylan generics that are circles, and all kinds of other shit...  So make due with what we got, and know what works.. The 1mg footballs play are playing really well on the ground, our ground game is killer with those and with the 2mg...  No complaints no problems nothing but happy customers.  So why online so different?
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: PinnacleGoods on July 29, 2013, 08:14 am
We told jcutler we would let them return all the tablets to us. We would pay for the shipping, and that would be that, no money would have to change hands nobody would have something they didn't want, but jcutler did not even address that offer.

Remember all of the PMs from our communication is in this thread.
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: maxkeiser on July 29, 2013, 08:16 am
31
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: PinnacleGoods on July 29, 2013, 08:23 am
31 what exactly, Mr. maxkeiser???
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: Jigsaw1234 on July 29, 2013, 10:34 am
We told jcutler we would let them return all the tablets to us. We would pay for the shipping, and that would be that, no money would have to change hands nobody would have something they didn't want, but jcutler did not even address that offer.

Remember all of the PMs from our communication is in this thread.

The buyer has a valid point if he did not receive the exact product that he ordered (happend to me twice already as well and this is a bit annoying, I never demanded to get my money back or anything and gave 5/5 nonetheless but still...)

The offer above from the seller, however, is totally fair for both parties and should be accepted imo

Seller as well as buyer should calm down a bit and be reasonable :)
Title: Re: Giving in to buyers irrational demands
Post by: PinnacleGoods on July 29, 2013, 12:47 pm
We told jcutler we would let them return all the tablets to us. We would pay for the shipping, and that would be that, no money would have to change hands nobody would have something they didn't want, but jcutler did not even address that offer.

Remember all of the PMs from our communication is in this thread.

The buyer has a valid point if he did not receive the exact product that he ordered (happend to me twice already as well and this is a bit annoying, I never demanded to get my money back or anything and gave 5/5 nonetheless but still...)

The offer above from the seller, however, is totally fair for both parties and should be accepted imo

Seller as well as buyer should calm down a bit and be reasonable :)

Thank you for being the voice of reason!  We want them to send back all unused tablets (should be the entire order) to an address we will specify. We pay for that shipping... It's the best way out and it's what we are offering.