Silk Road forums
Support => Feature requests => Topic started by: hatedpatriot on April 29, 2012, 03:14 am
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I'm pretty new around here, relatively speaking. But I have noticed some things that I think could be fixed. Most of my ideas involve the users using the place different, not all changes for management to make. I really think that if my idea could come to pass it would be a great thing for us lovers of chemicals. SR already has the infrastructure to make this happen, so I'm gonna share my idea here first.
If not everybody likes my idea or thinks it's worth a shit, that's okay. Anyone who is interested in discussing such a thing can email me at hatedpatriot@tormail.net. I'm looking for a place within tor now that might host open source discussions. I think open source is the only way to make something like this work because everybody's input is needed. And nobody needs to own a community, especially one like this.
Seems to me that one of the biggest problems of vending at SR is getting paid. Turning coins to cash is a pain in the ass and if you are really rolling them over you have to worry about being noticed. Because honestly, local cops like drug busts, but they have major jurisdictional hurdles here. The DEA has some power that transcends state lines, but they need big to justify the effort. That leaves the money. The quickest way to elicit a response from the government is for them to think you are cheating them out of money. This shit with the coins is only gonna get worse. The government really dislikes the damn things, therefore most "reputable" electronic payment platforms will not touch btc with a ten foot pole. Some people in some countries who were connected well early on do not have this problem I assume, but any new vendor who has good success, I think, will find it almost impossible to cash in a substantial amount of coins without officially going on record in some way.
I propose that we turn SR into a trading post. I trade the drugs I have plenty of, or are readily available, for the one's I'd rather have. This would mean you put drugs in and get drugs out, no money. The drugs you put in would be paid for with btc like now, but you would just spend them at SR and never cash them. Btc is not the only option, but btc already has been established as something that folks agree is worth something. The same thing could be accomplished with any electronic token that you can buy somewhere with money for that first initial buy in. If you only bought drugs, you would need to constantly buy more of these tokens, if you only sold you would need cash at some point to buy more dope. If you do both and see it simply as a place to trade it works great I believe.
Members, I won't say buyers or sellers, but members would be rated in a number of ways, some obvious and known, others not obvious and not known to the community at large. These metrics would all be weighted differently(Not a programmer so I cant go in to that). When you found something you wanted to trade for or buy or sell, the system would decide based on the various rankings you have and one random bit whether you would send yours first or the other person sent theirs. That way one doesn't get sent till the the first one arrives. Sure you could rip someone off like that, but if you had a high "never received" rating, this would make you have to go first more often, also being new would almost always guarantee you go first. Transaction size limits for new members would also help. I have it in my mind how the user interface of this place would work. It wouldn't take much to make what we have into it.
There could be system credits or even btc to facilitate the equal exchange of goods. For all intents and purposes it would look the same as it does now, but it would work a bit different with one sending, then the other, but mostly it's us users using SR differently. We all have some drug we can get easily and the quality is good etc. Somebody somewhere will likely trade what they have for it. If nothing else I know that drugs spend a whole fuck of a lot easier than btc. You can't buy gas with btc, but just about any gas attendant will take a gram of bud and put you twenty in, I know lol.
That's a super condensed version of my idea. I can't see where a scammer would prosper here. Depending on how the metrics are weighted it may only take once to burn up your shot at ripping someone. I've been thinking a lot about this and I want to try to make it happen, so I can use it! If it means I have to find people that believe in it and lets make it happen then I guess I will. I'd rather see us make a success out of SR, though. As it is now, buyers are as skittish as deer, all paranoid about scammers and leo. Vendors are put under tremendous stress to provide the kind of service we are used to from banks etc and then if they are popular they have the btc problem, which is not insignificant. As of now both sides are incurring loss. I believe my idea would lessen that loss or at least make it more evenly distributed. I have lots more thoughts on this, but if nobody wants to talk about it or is interested I won't waste my time laying it out.
Well, whadda ya think?
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What stimulant you on?
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tl;dr We can alter the way we silk road and it'll be better I think
Stimulant, just finished off the last of VMM's meth.
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SR can be used in the way you describe in it's current state, and with more security. There's no way I would trade drugs directly, because that would mean giving my address to someone, and also supplying them with drugs.
Best to keep buyer accounts and seller accounts seperate, IMO, and use bitcoins as the currency, rather than the drugs themselves.
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Coins would still be the exchange medium. It's mostly the perception that us users have or SR that would change. Like you said you can do that now. I guess if you are a seller and thats all, you would not want to share your address. But for those of us who have already shared it. I dunno, I have some ideas around that, but not enough to bring out yet.
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If you have already shared your address as a buyer, you should never attempt to sell using the same identity. If you have access to something that you can sell for btc, you should open a separate vendor account that is not linked to your buyer account in any way.
I'm sure most sellers on here also have buyer accounts, but it would be unsafe to let people know that the two accounts are actually the same person.
I agree with your points about user perception though. I see plenty of people commenting about "vastly overpriced" substances on here, compared to their local area, so you'd think they would see the potential opportunity to earn some bitcoins for themselves.
Maybe it's the vendor's fee that puts people off, or the fear of repercussions for committing a more serious crime? Also there are plenty of drug users that frown upon "drug dealers", and imagine themselves as better than the stereotype that they assume all dealers to fit.
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I like the idea of using rank to determine who takes the initial risk but in my mind the only way someone isnt going to scam is if they have something to lose.aka money. Nobody who scams cares about there rep on here or anything else...but if they had money at stake they wouldnt be so quick to scam.
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I guess I was thinking that if a person who was just there to scam were to enter a deal, their stats would guarantee they take the initial risk, since they have no confirmed successful transactions. Though scammers could buddy up and counterfeit transactions it would be laborious just to snatch a few drugs. If they aint got product, then it's over right there. In order for them to really rip somebody off they have to put in a few honest deals to earn the rank to be trusted and not have to go first.
Regarding the seller acct, I would definitely use a different name. Being an active buyer then a vendor who experiences any sort of success would get you busted so fucking fast. I do have some things I can sell though.
I really like IVdbrain or whatever his name is, Fry, I like his idea of flagging zipcodes. I've spent a little time looking around today to find some free onion hosting with php so I can put together a real simple page, password protected, that the vendors who want to use it would just got there and enter the zip code they are sending to. They would also need to update previous zipcodes as non deliverable or successful (I have ideas of handling this with a separate script). The php script could essentially forget the successful ones and just remember the non-deliverable ones and anytime a vendor came and put in that zip code, any vendor, it would warn that that zip code is either hot or has a thief. The idea is still working itself out, but I like it a lot and I can do that now if I find hosting and figure out a way to make the update part of that easy and safe for us buyers. Someone said the vendors forum already had a zipcode watch list, I dunno, but it doesn't seem to be being used. I guess the only thing this would really do is prevent serial ripoffs.
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hatedpatriot, there are a lot of problems with both the idea and the method used. I agree with your motivation, just not with the means of achieving the goal.
- the resolution is very low, you are preventing anybody in a zip code recieving just because of a scammer. Eventually, huge areas would be off limits to SR's services for no reason.
- you are effectively making the zip code public, you're giving LE potentially useful information about the approximate location of buyers, even if they are scammers.
- worst of all, it appears you would be storing the approximate locations of legitimate buyers too.
All of the problems are fixed by using a hash algorithm. It potentially allows everybody to share information about the addresses of potential scammers, without actually sharing the addresses themselves. I describe its use and the potential caveats in detail here:
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=20910.msg212838#msg212838
I am currently coding a version that any vendor can use, and it shouldn't take very long to achieve. If you've any questions ask away.
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I agree the resolution is poor, but in most cases it would suffice, but your idea will be better. I look forward to seeing your code put to work! With the ideas I was having around that, I would see no need to remember any successful deliveries, and besides zipcode, no other info. Since you are hashing the info, you can actually do a closer match while maintaining anonymity for us drug addicts, sweet.
I think our best chance at fixing the worst problems we have at SR is to do what we are doing. Lots of these folks want an authoritative force to come down and force things to work right, but that would never work. We as the users can develop tools and habits to make our experience at SR less prone to end in disappointment but management can only pass rules, and rules restrict and hinder. It's a disgusting and unnerving habit that people almost need a legislative force to resolve their every conflict these days. People have slowly been trained over the last 100 years or so to reject freedom and independence in favor of complacency and misplaced trust in some entity which they assume will look after their interests. But, I digress.
I would love to get an invite code for freedom hosting, but I have no idea who would give me one of those. Not against paying, but that's not an option that I see. In addition to creating tools to do these things we do, I would also like a test bed for SR like ideas in general. I'm glad you joined the discussion itt, I need more nerds. I have been searching the onion for open source discussion groups, like what fresh meat used to be back in the day, but not having much luck. Any ideas? I was checking out GNUnet yesterday but got distracted, will resume that today if I have time.
Thanks for offering up your work, pine, peace!
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what would a poor fellow like me, who doesn't consume any drug under the sun, and instead opts to use his connects to feed his family, do on such a site? I have no use for substance if it can't be traded for a universal medium of exchange and account, because I don't do them. This is strictly business for me, which is why i've been able to vend on here for almost a year and stand proud about being 100% honest. I just don't see it being the same if I were a seller and a consumer.
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what would a poor fellow like me, who doesn't consume any drug under the sun, and instead opts to use his connects to feed his family, do on such a site? I have no use for substance if it can't be traded for a universal medium of exchange and account, because I don't do them. This is strictly business for me, which is why i've been able to vend on here for almost a year and stand proud about being 100% honest. I just don't see it being the same if I were a seller and a consumer.
He's right HP, I mean in the mainstream every so often a guy comes along and reinvents the barter system as a new concept, but it ain't. Ever. It's like the equivalent of the perennially occurring perpetual motion machine for engineers, only it's for economists.
(Subtopic: Actually come to think of it, there's lots of curious mirage-ideas like this, there is cold fusion and the 'grand unified theory' for physicists, practical transmutation of the elements for chemists (alchemy). Do you ever get the sense that humanity is banging it's head on a door, unable to open it? :D)
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate you're trying to think outside the box, making a mistake like the above is a classic sign of it, I wish more people would make an attempt, but it's a regressive step on many economic levels, not to mention the fact that you've just increased the probability of vendors getting caught and created a structure that means way more buyers would be penalized as drug traffickers.
I mean, from a practical point of view, I wouldn't trust the average buyer to have the right mental framework to take packaging seriously e.g. things like vacuum packing, gloves etc. In fact we know this because people have been using the mail for transport for about 100 years, and judging from the frankly hilarious reports we receive they are terrible at it.
A medium of exchange is a brilliant idea despite its flaws and communists harping on and on about contradictions (I'm pretty sure those guys live in the mother of all echo chambers).
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I suggest you read Tradecraft: A Primer, it's on the forums with the [intel] tag if you search through them. It's a really well thought out essay into how to approach difficult problems and analyze them, I'm sure you'll start getting practical ideas about stuff even while you're just reading it.
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So; it seems to me that question is something like:
"What is the optimal way for vendors to anonymously receive payments?"
Then you look at the nouns and verbs in that question and break it down like so: ->
Optimal
Vendor
Anonymous
Receive
Payments
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You got to ask yourself, what do those words *really* mean? That always helps me think out of the box and impress on me what the fundamental shape of the problem is. Believe me, you can waste enormous amounts of time doing sweet fuck all whilst imagining you're working on the problem, confuse quantity of effort with quality of results. I do it all the time, and when it happens I have to stop what I'm doing and start over again and think more about the question, this happens at least once when trying to solve the problem.
btw: In a related note, I'm still working on the cryptographic hashing system. I did a ton of research and then got nowhere, the code just fell to pieces because I thought I knew what I was doing but it turned out I didn't, so I am starting over again from scratch. It has to be done just right, almost axiomatic, otherwise there will be consequences. Onward and upward!
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I like the way you think. Thanks for the reading list.
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Very new here so hope I'm not jumping in too early. Really liked your thinking in this post.
I like the idea of removing the real money aspect to bitcoins. It doesn't have to just be illegal goods traded, people could sell everything and anything to earn their coins.
The trouble is, I don't think this would stop scams. One of the main problems in any trade is there are people who scam. They are not enlightened enough to know that what they are doing is wrong, unless things change fundamentally to human beliefs, no system is going to be completely foolproof and someone will end up suffering losses due to them.
As I'm so new I'm scouring the forums and reading up on safety and how to stay safe and avoid scams. Seems scams / losses are becoming common here and serious so its good to think outside the box for solutions.
I don't feel at all comfortable to become a seller here at the moment, seems its a fairly high risk business even for honest traders. Anything that could be done to improve that would help.
I'm sure its been mentioned elsewhere, but a improvement to escrow and early finalization might help. I like the idea of a more statistical analysis of feedback to identify possible scams. It would be good to provide something like a risk rating to each transaction based on some rules on previous sales and orders. It could identify if a large amount of coins is suddenly being finalized early compared to the receiving of goods. This could help with even the most difficult to stop scams (like this Tony incident that's being talked about a lot at the moment).
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Yeah, that's why I was thinking that if there were some way to only FE enough to cover cost, not profit, it could at least cut loses in half.
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The more I think about this, I wonder if things are pretty fair as they are. The current system although could be tweaked, leaves it up to sellers to make their own policy and buyers to do the same.
It will be really interesting to see how this place actually works out in the long term.
As buyer who isn't going to be ordering large quantities, hopefully I won't get asked to FE, if I do I'll decide if I'm prepared to accept the risk.
If I were to become a seller, I would have to set some sort of similar rules to protect myself. In some cases it would be crazy not to ask someone to FE. For example a brand new customer making a huge order.
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I'll be vending soon and I will have some rules that aren't up for debate or negotiation. That will seem very harsh and asshole like, but I'm only willing to do it my way or no way. I will essentially sell to have coins to spend elsewhere. I will never convert a single coin to money pac or any such shit. I have zero interest in making the top 10 sellers list either, none at all. I'm sure my rules will evolve, new ones added, old ones amended or removed. But those changes will be towards the goal of matching my style of selling to the right buyers, not turning into a super vendor. Right now the rules I know I want is no buyers with less than 5 transactions and any refunds at all if you have less than 10-15 buys. And if you do have a refund it better be a lonely fucker. Also I will cap orders for everyone at $200, and that's higher than I'd prefer, but reasonable as that is usually the max I spend on a single vendor. But those are gonna be the rules. FE will make no difference on any of it. I will never ever ask for FE , I will never ever tell you that you can't FE. You as a grown ass human being can decide if you are willing to risk that. But offering to FE will not make me fill an order for a new buyer or someone will shitty stats. I'm sure it will be a learning experience for me and I will see things different as time goes on, but that's how it will start, that much is certain. Hopefully the things I learn can go towards helping this idea grow. I'm already convinced that a trading post type place will not work, it's too dangerous because it makes all participants distributors, but there is a tweak to be had here that will make things better, I just gotta find it.
When I start doing this, though, those who can order from me and do will love it. I will only ever offer the finest grass I can find and I have access to lots. Same goes for hash and edibles. And I could not sell smoke for $100/quarter when I'm getting it way cheaper. I'll probably price quarter bags at $75 and that's shipped. Never mids, always the best I can lay my hands on. Supply will be limited and that's how I want it.
Keep thinking and posting RootZero, I appreciate the input. Hopefully I can keep pine involved too. He is a voice of reason that is well spoken enough to not just sound like a hater, but really makes me think. I appreciate everyone's input here. It's the only way to come up with newer and better things, open collaboration.