Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: MrRibena on March 02, 2012, 11:46 pm
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It seems to be a growing trend amongst sellers to make buyers finalize early, to the point that now the first thing I do when I see a product I want I go straight to the sellers terms. If they demand you finalize early, I walk away and move onto the next vendor. On top of that I am amazed that so many buyers would willingly give up their right to escrow and choose to finalize early.
For me the whole point of Silk Road, the reason why I use it instead of local contacts, is for safety, security and quality control. I know if the product I ordered arrives and is legitimate, I can release my money to the seller. I can then go back to that seller and trade over and over again. If it's not I can dispute it and hope to get some if not all of my money back, protections you don't have on the streets.
Eventually I can see all sellers forcing buyers to finalize early in which case you might as well just phone up your local dealer and close your Silk Road account. It'd be no different than buying from someone on the street corner, hoping you don't get ripped off.
If sellers insist on you finalizing early, and SR are happy for this practice to continue, I'd like to see a check box that allows you to exclude all products from sellers that require you finalize early OR the introduction of a minimum purchasing threshold (e.g. you must have a minimum of 10 transactions to not have to finalize early)
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What's the point in a check box that excludes all products that require you to finalise early?
Most of the time sellers ask buyers to finalise early is if they've got low buyer stats which is 100% acceptable imo, if they're uncool with that that's fine as some of the major suppliers will welcome them as they can afford to take the hit more in case that buyer is a scammer.
For you, the whole point is safety, security e.t.c but from a vendors point of view we are still dealing with things at a local level and making sure you guys at SR get the quality you deserve, we're also dealing with money laundering, resupplies and the general stress of being a vendor which is bloody stressful whether your supplying in real life or on SR (or as most vendors on here = both!)
I don't see how we'd eventually get to the point where all sellers would force buyers to finalize early...it still remains a CHOICE for the buyer, and a lot of the people that do ask buyers to finalise early normally offer some form of incentive (quicker delivery or extra product) which is all good.
But yeah, in summary I reckon FE is okay as a lot of suppliers aren't "big time" and we can't afford to lose money on bitcoin fluctuations or be unable to buy re-supplies because Bitcoins are still being transferred into cash...
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What I really don't get is the buyers who finalize early even when the vendor doesn't require/ask you to. Why are people so enthusiastic to get ripped off? I get that this whole thing is really exciting and all but that kind of recklessness is going to bite you eventually, and being scammed does not feel good.
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As a buyer, I can tell you that if you have on your page that you require Early Finalization... then I'm going to the vendor right below you who doesn't require.
It's a major turn-off for buyers, Period.
Think about this... what if silk road didn't even have an escrow system? i bet there would be allot more scamming and way less people here.
This is a quote from the current #30 seller on SR who is anti FE.
"I've always loathed the trend of early finalization, the defining feature of the site is escrow. I think unless you've ordered from a vendor multiple times and want to do them a favor (it does really help with cash flow) then everything should be done in escrow, especially for larger orders."
As a first time buyer from her, i purchased $500 usd worth of stuff and she didn't require a FE.
This is what the RATIONAL CUSTOMER expects, so sellers... just be aware that asking for FE is damaging your potential sales.
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Eventually I can see all sellers forcing buyers to finalize early in which case you might as well just phone up your local dealer and close your Silk Road account. It'd be no different than buying from someone on the street corner, hoping you don't get ripped off.
That makes absolutely and utterly no sense. In fact, it's the opposite in real life. You're not going to walk up to your vendor, hand them a bill, and have them walk away (unless you're inept at handling deals). It's more likely the product will be shit, the price will be shit, etc. than the dealer is gonna make off with your money while you wait patiently for weeks for them to hand it to you.
If sellers insist on you finalizing early, and SR are happy for this practice to continue, I'd like to see a check box that allows you to exclude all products from sellers that require you finalize early OR the introduction of a minimum purchasing threshold (e.g. you must have a minimum of 10 transactions to not have to finalize early)
On the flip side, I think this (the first part, that is) is a great idea. Having an option to view vendors that don't/do require early finalization would be a welcome addition, in my opinion. But the second part, as a blanket condition to buying and finalization? Nah. There is no magical number of transactions or BTC spent that determine if you're a good/bad/scammy/etc. buyer or vendor. If a vendor sees you have fewer than ten transactions and wants you to finalize and you don't, they can cancel the order, so this feature would be useless in that respect. Or if you're suggesting a system in which vendors cannot demand someone finalize early if he/she has ten or more (or whatever the number may be) transactions, that too I vehemently oppose, as reasoned below.
What I really don't get is the buyers who finalize early even when the vendor doesn't require/ask you to. Why are people so enthusiastic to get ripped off? I get that this whole thing is really exciting and all but that kind of recklessness is going to bite you eventually, and being scammed does not feel good.
Reasoned below.As a buyer, I can tell you that if you have on your page that you require Early Finalization... then I'm going to the vendor right below you who doesn't require.
It's a major turn-off for buyers, Period.
Please don't attempt to speak for the majority of people on this site.
Think about this... what if silk road didn't even have an escrow system? i bet there would be allot more scamming and way less people here.
This is a quote from the current #30 seller on SR who is anti FE.
"I've always loathed the trend of early finalization, the defining feature of the site is escrow. I think unless you've ordered from a vendor multiple times and want to do them a favor (it does really help with cash flow) then everything should be done in escrow, especially for larger orders."
As a first time buyer from her, i purchased $500 usd worth of stuff and she didn't require a FE.
This is what the RATIONAL CUSTOMER expects, so sellers... just be aware that asking for FE is damaging your potential sales.
"...unless you've ordered from a vendor multiple times and want to do them a favor (it does really help with cash flow)...", expanded upon below.
A lot of buyers just assume vendors make truckloads of money and no thought or effort goes into the monetary piece of Silk Road. Only packaging, responding to customers, etc. are the difficult parts. That's an absolute joke. This is not eBay. It's not Amazon.
BitCoin is an unstable currency. Today the coin could be worth 4 dollars; tomorrow 3. That's a drop of more than 20%. Considering the profit margin on a lot of items, and waiting weeks and weeks to receive your money is just an unreasonable risk to take. Many vendors cash out each and every day to ensure they don't take any losses.
Some buyers wait until long after they get their product to finalize. Or they claim they never received product, or a variety of other issues arise.
A lot of vendors are solo acts. They do all the vending by themselves. They buy their goods, sell it on here, use some of the revenue to restock, and the process repeats. Waiting several weeks to restock each time because buyers only pay them after several weeks can be frustrating, and may not be worth it.
Personally, I finalize early for vendors I have done business with in the past and who require finalization in the item or vendor profile descriptions. Is it a risk? Obviously. Will I get burnt by it? I already have, and probably will at some point in the future. But these cases are few and far between, and I have never lost what I was not willing to lose in the first place. And that's key.
Some people finalize early for vendors who don't even require it. These people are even more trusting of their vendors, and who want to see their vendors get more product quicker, which can only help. Hell, in the long run the vendor may even lower prices because their cash flow is more consistent. Are they taking a risk? Obviously. Will they get burnt by it? Some, absolutely. And they're entitled to take that risk if they choose.
Many buyers finalize for a vendor that they have never purchased from before. This is a risk that I myself try to avoid taking, especially if the vendor has a recent track record for policy changes, drastic price changes, etc. But think of it this way- if the vendor has been on here for several months, has stellar feedback (with early finalization for the first few pages, and praise after that), their forum thread has nothing but glowing reviews, and nothing indicates they're more likely to take the money and run now than months ago, the risks are low.
I guess my post ended up becoming a horrible rambling nigh-incoherent mess, so I'll just summarize.
1) Buying and selling product here isn't as simple as vac-sealing some shit and mailing it out. The money piece can be incredibly difficult, and early finalization can alleviate some issues.
2) A lot of people realize this, and finalize early even for vendors who don't require it. So clearly not everyone agrees with "no FE" policy.
3) If you don't want to do business with someone for whatever reason, don't fucking do business with them.
On a related note, I'll conclude by giving a piece of advice to people that do finalize early: be smart. Seriously. If you want to early finalize, THINK. Is there some recent trend, reason, or indication that the seller is likely to take your money and run?
A sale too good to be true?
Expression of monetary issues?
Policy change?
New product offered without forum reviews?
A scandal?
If you have doubt, you may want to just wait until others have early finalized after the above has occurred, just to be safe.
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I'm high on meth
what?
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I struggled with this and found a compromise as I pledged to never demand early finalization. All of my listings are listed twice, one at a discounted price for those willing to finalize early and the other a standard escrow listing. When somebody is willing to finalize early, either because of my rating or previous dealings with them, I can offer a better price. It is just a fact of economics. A business might give you 90 or 120 days to pay for something, but you can be sure a premium will be attached to that transaction.
The vast majority of my buyers finalize within 24 hours or so of receipt, which is acceptable but that still puts me at 4-5 days AT BEST between parting with inventory and receipt of payment. If I have the payment when I ship the order, which BTW is how most business in the real world is done lets face it, I can offer a better price because now I can return to my supplier and say "I need more, here is what I owe you" instead of "I need more, I don't have any cash, and if you can't front me more I understand. I will have that cash ASAP for you though." Early finalization helps me keep inventory in stock, which in turn lets me move more, which lets me have more in stock and so on and so on.
I tell people that FE that a DCN with the status "Delivered" entitles them to no refund or anything. That does not mean I am not willing to work with somebody who FE'd and is in a different situation. I had some recent troubles that took me away from home unable to log in and answer PMs or post a profile update. Some FE'd orders did not go out during that time. I made sure to contact the affected individuals and ship their orders as soon as I returned home. Two FE customers accidentally got shorted recently. If they don't have the make up orders already, they will by Monday at the latest.
Bottom line is FE helps me out a lot, but I NEVER require it. All of my listings have a standard escrow twin and customers are served in the same order no matter if they FE'd or not. Since I started this, probably 90% of my customers have chosen to FE and I thank them very much. They help me keep my products in and my prices low. I never started selling here to make a million, only for the fun, unique opportunities being a vendor provides and make a bit on the side.
Peace out!
TUS
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I'm unable to refute anything you said, and I'm upset that you don't agree with me even though we're both buyers and should both feel the same sense of entitlement.
It's alright, no hard feelings.
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I am one of the unfortunate ones from accross the sea, who is always asked to finalize early. I always place the smallest order possible as a first order, even though this is a bit inconvenient, have to wait 14-20 days, then place the order I really want. I am getting the patience of a Saint, but after two months am starting to get a reasonably steady supply.
In 20 transactions I have been scammed once, but that was very obvious, knew even when I placed order less than 50% chance of receiving, but only 10 bitcoin, I can afford to lose that, with the savings I am making 400% cheaper than the local market, and a higher quality product.
I think 99% of vendors are honest and the true scammers are weeded out quickly. Much more profitable to have 500 trades, than scam 20-30 people. Anyway have a posse of vendors that are providing a great service, if I lose a shipment I will just wear it, not their fault. Maybe have a little whinge get a bonus but wouldn't expect a full reship.
May the Force be with SR
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- individual sellers are adjusting due to what they will say are scammers.
- for now buy from someone who does escrow.
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good discussion so far. As a vendor here for longer than most, I'll add my 2 cents.
First of all, vendors can choose to practice whatever they like as far as early finalize. All associations on this site are 100% voluntary, so you as buyers can pick and choose whoever you want to do business with, and early finalize will be one of those criteria.
do I personally think that sellers should make all customers finalize early? Hell, no. Not because it's shady or whatever (although the possibilities for scamming are pretty high here), but because it's just bad business practice.
With all that being said, I do have caveats for certain buyers and products. My policies are all clearly laid out on my profile page for FE (essentially if you are buyer with 5 or less transactions and/or above 0% refund rate, you have to FE. If you are unsure, PM me) and most of the buyers who stop by are already well aware of the policies.
The only other instance where I do FE are on my sales and special offers. I can't offer up 1oz AA grade for $200, including shipping, and have to wait 3 weeks for that to roll back over into cashflow, at least not if I want to sell a significant amount. I am willing to forego 15% of my margin if a buyer is willing to trust me based on the fact I've been here 9 months and never ripped anyone off, plus it makes that much more product available to the community as a whole.
I think my personal practice is pretty fair, maybe a little bit stringent (but I can't tell you how many scam buyers that has saved me from). But if a seller makes their policies very clear upfront, buyers can pick and choose who they want to do business with, and it's about a lot more than just price (which is good - the more market information everyone has, the better). I also think there's a good mix right now - the vendors who have finalize early options are usually cheaper than the full-escrow vendors, and so buyers have options based on their personal risk tolerance. I know it seems shitty to be a brand new buyer on here, but it's at least as shitty being a brand new vendor and trying to entice people to take a shot on you over your existing, established, trusted competitors (and usually involves giving away several $100's of dollars in free or insanely discounted product).
It's good for the community to keep discussing this and to stay on top of shady vendors taking advantage of this practice, but in the end it all comes down to choice on both vendor and buyer side - nobody's forcing you to do business together. And free choice and free association are always good in my book.
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I'm unable to refute anything you said, and I'm upset that you don't agree with me even though we're both buyers and should both feel the same sense of entitlement.
It's alright, no hard feelings.
lol u mad bro???
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A lot of buyers just assume vendors make truckloads of money and no thought or effort goes into the monetary piece of Silk Road. Only packaging, responding to customers, etc. are the difficult parts. That's an absolute joke. This is not eBay. It's not Amazon.
BitCoin is an unstable currency.
Some buyers wait until long after they get their product to finalize. Or they claim they never received product, or a variety of other issues arise.
+1
As a vendor I started out with a no FE policy, but the real world dictates that we have to amend our policies based on realities. Buyers who lie and scam, bitcoin prices that swing wildly all play a role. Pimpin ain't easy and selling in here ain't either.
If you're a good buyer with a purchase history most vendors won't break your balls about FE. If you have 0/0 and buy a $1000 item with a sketchy looking address like "Mr. S." then you should expect a little prudence from the seller.
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I don't see this as a growing trend, it's about the same as it ever was. There's very few vendors that require out of escrow across the board. Most have valid reasons for asking out of escrow: low or bad stats, first time buyers, international orders, etc. There's only one vendor of reputation that I know of that requires out of escrow no matter what and that's why I will never purchase from them.
I won't repeat what others have said, there's valid points on both sides.
What I will add is this:
It's all about developing and maintaining trust, both as a seller and a buyer. As a buyer, make a few purchases with a reputable dealer even if it means out of escrow to show them you can be trusted and you'll find that most will not require it once they get to know you and when that happens, you'll probably be happy to FE.
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I don't really see the problem with asking buyers with little or questionable history to finalize early.
Vendors have to go through a vetting process... Asking new buyers to finalize early amounts to the same thing. I was asked to finalize early for my first few transactions- I stuck to reputable vendors and had nary an issue. Now it isn't something I have to worry about.
Fledgling buyers, learn to hop out of the nest before you attempt to soar...
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My favorite vendor requires EVERYONE who doesn't pay for priority mail to FE. I choose to still do business with him because i trust him and know that he will send the product. Plus he is the only guy that has what i am looking for, so I am forced to FE.
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As long as it is a trusted vendor, I don't see what's the problem.
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Maybe SR should allow vendors to "officially" bypass the escrow system but with higher commission prices.
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One aspect of FE that i find quite interesting is the cheaper/more product for those willing to finalize early. I never finalize early (although there are a couple i would FE early for, cause i've done a couple transactions with them), but the vendors who offer more product/less price for those willing to FE is very enticing and creative IMO.
Basically the vendor has two listings for the same product and amount. One listing is cheaper because buying it, you're agreeing to FE. It gives buyers the opportunity to make a purchase or two from a vendor as a kind of test run by purchasing the non-FE listing. If everything goes well they can then purchase a listing with a discount under the agreement they FE.
Like i said, i don't FE, but it's a very clever idea, one that i'd be willing to entertain if more people offered it. You can take the risk and get more for your money, or play it safe but pay a little bit more.
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I can understand why sellers would want finalise early but, as buyer there isn't much choice sometimes (I only do domestic to my country) and if you want some goodies you might have to bite the bullet. Having bit that bullet I been skanked once (might be twice if last weeks order doesn't turn in the next couple of days) but never had any problems with the other twelve orders I've done with the majority not requiring me to finalise early and there the ones I end up going back if they have stuff listed.
I have no issue with the new protections put in for sellers but there needs to be protection for buyers too, I know the protection is escrow but when listings are low, there's isn't much choice but to finalise early.
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I don't really see the problem with asking buyers with little or questionable history to finalize early.
Vendors have to go through a vetting process... Asking new buyers to finalize early amounts to the same thing. I was asked to finalize early for my first few transactions- I stuck to reputable vendors and had nary an issue. Now it isn't something I have to worry about.
Fledgling buyers, learn to hop out of the nest before you attempt to soar...
I couldn't have said it any better.
As a buyer I take just as much pride in my buyer stats as a seller would their rep/rating. Just as a seller works hard to keep a perfect rating I have also worked(not as hard, lol) to keep my stats as perfect as possible to represent myself to a vendor. Just as they work to ship ASAP I made sure to finalize ASAP. Every order I've ever received the funds were released within 4 hours of arrival. In the beginning I used top rated vendors and ordered the smallest size possible first. Next order I moved up a size, and so on until I was established.
Almost every vendor I deal with, or any reliable vendor, will rarely ask to FE. If they do, it will be a special circumstance they will explain upfront, like a discount for FE or a need to free up funds to acquire product. They may ask that you establish yourself first, read above to do that, but will never demand FE.
When it comes to FE for a sale price it's a simple question you need to ask. Is it more important for you to save a small amount of money up front for a sale or to secure a larger amount in the end by staying in escrow? There are some great vendors doing FE sales but keep in mind how easy it would be to take a bunch of orders and walk away, reputable or not. Hybridmike just did it, I've heard figures of up to $30k scammed that weekend alone. A lot of these guys deal IRL, or just create a new account. It's not like he's the first, and won't be the last.
Good vendors scrutinize the buyer just as much if not more than the buyer does the seller. Most of the bitching I hear about FE are those who want to order $500 of product for their first order and can't understand why the vendor won't do it in escrow. Not all are like that, but a lot of them are. In the end all we really have to identify ourselves by is our rep. If you handle it properly FE will only ever be an issue that you create for yourself.
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If VENDOR asks or worse demands for an early finalization of an order politely remind them that F.E. is improper and not the way to do thing here. Check the BUYER and SELLER guides. If they persist TELL UM TO FUCT OFF and take your btc elsewhere!! I had and HAVE to wait, so should they. IT MADE ME A BETTER VENDOR!! FOLLOW THE RULES. Instant gratification is NOT THE WAY!! Patience grasshopper. You will be rewarded. VENDORS w/BTC ;D and TRADERS w/successful completed orders. :D
THAT being said... TRADERS!!! FINALIZE ASAP!!! UPON DELIVERY RUN TO THE COMPUTER AND FINALIZE, help your favorite vendors out!! It's the right thing to do. Read the buyer and seller guides. 8) Stay cool and smart.
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IT HAS TO GO
Why?
I was a buyer with at the time around 18 positive transactions
I had 0% refund, 0% auto-finalize and 6+ months membership
I was still asked to finalize for, pretty much one of the biggest or I think maybe even THE biggest vendor for Europe - Holland
And we all know how that worked out.
Vendor has 5 or more successful sales & Buyer has less than 5 successful buys:
- Finalize Early is mandatory
Vendor has less than 5 successful sales & Buyer has 5 or more successful purchases:
- NO Finalizing Early required by SR Rules (but buyer can still choose to if they wish)
Vendor has less than 5 or more successful sales & Buyer has 5 or more successful purchases:
- NO Finalizing Early required by SR Rules (but buyer can still choose to if they wish)
Vendor has less than 5 or more successful sales & Buyer has less than 5 or more successful purchases:
- Buyers with less than 5 or more successful sales will be advised from registration to only buy from established 5+ sales vendors, aside from this it is down to the discretion of the Buyer
& Seller
This is the best I can think of, anyone want to improve on it?
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I only finalize early if they offer something extra and have good feedback.
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Odd, SR must spend as much time protecting us from ourselves as they do from LE? Silly humans.
There is another element to this FE thing, which is us newbies. When i hopped on SR, i didn't know FE from LE from mods to out of or in escrow. i didn't even know this community forum existed; i was a kid in a candy store. i didn't know we could banter with the vendor, etc. And i got snagged by hybrid mike my first week of enjoying SR, when i thought everybody had to FE, i didn't know it was abbey normal. i'd still have those bitcoins in my pocket if the SR rules would've have required all under 5 BTC transactions to NOT FE. Hell, hybridmike told me to TRANSFER the BTC to him, lol, and cherry as i was, i said ok!!!! (don't make fun of me)
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Odd, SR must spend as much time protecting us from ourselves as they do from LE? Silly humans.
There is another element to this FE thing, which is us newbies. When i hopped on SR, i didn't know FE from LE from mods to out of or in escrow. i didn't even know this community forum existed; i was a kid in a candy store. i didn't know we could banter with the vendor, etc. And i got snagged by hybrid mike my first week of enjoying SR, when i thought everybody had to FE, i didn't know it was abbey normal. i'd still have those bitcoins in my pocket if the SR rules would've have required all under 5 BTC transactions to NOT FE. Hell, hybridmike told me to TRANSFER the BTC to him, lol, and cherry as i was, i said ok!!!! (don't make fun of me)
hey don't feel too bad. Before it was "outlawed", about 75% of my business was people directly transferring me BTC and buying a 1.00 BTC "out of escrow" listing so they could leave feedback. I never once did not send out a package. Assholes are assholes, but some of us are genuinely here to do business and honor our word. The forums are a real key to picking out who's who, and that's something I wish SR advertised more publicly to new buyers.
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Yes, it would be nice if SR put a link to this forum over in the news section they have on the right side of the home page. Surprising how many people come here and say they never new it existed, just putting a link saying official SR forum would help out a lot of newbies and probably stop some of the scamming that people fall for when they first sign up.
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Yes, it would be nice if SR put a link to this forum over in the news section they have on the right side of the home page. Surprising how many people come here and say they never new it existed, just putting a link saying official SR forum would help out a lot of newbies and probably stop some of the scamming that people fall for when they first sign up.
the link is on the bottom navigation bar of every SR page. It's been there since the site was created a year ago...
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yes, the link was on there, but i had no idea what it was for, and the whole thing moves so slow, i didn't want to get caught for another half hour. then when i tried to set up a log in account for the Forum, i couldn't understand the privacy issues, so i didn't bother. just like now, i have no idea what all this karma means, nor the junior members and hero members.
BUT I NOW FIND THE FORUM TO BE INDISPENSIBLE, A VERY VERY VALUABLE TOOL! I WISH I COULD INFORM ALL NEWBIES ABOUT IT, THEY SHOULD READ IT THOROUGHLY PRIOR TO GETTING TOO INVOLVED IN TRANSACTIONS.
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I would say that vendors usually only request that buyers F.E. if they have crap buying stats.. they usually don't force F.E. with everyone.
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My first week on SR was much like Blue Water's.
My first purchase was a scam. Lost like 160$, but hey, I learned a damn good lesson.
I found out about the forums and now I've been lurking here trying to soak up all everything i can. While I'm getting used to it, I'm sort of blown away at how awesome this is. A pretty secure network with a good community behind it.
I've already made another purchase with a NL vendor, hope it gets here soon!
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I am a vendor now for more than 5 month with 100% satisfied customer with more than 80 transactions and even more than 100 shipments.
To me new customers have to finalize early.
Because of this decision I have NO DOUBT that scammers have been mostly stayed away.
I am honest, trustable, reliable and fast and there is no reason why I should not been paid when I ship the order!
In Germany it is the only way to buy something on the internet. You always have to pay forwarding your shipment.
I do not understand the problems some people seems to have with it.
The buyer has to take some risk, too. I am not responsible for seizures from your customs or the postman who takes your order for himself.
I have to pay for stamps, envelopes, printing labels, items and so on.
I spent the whole day by answering to sometimes ridiculous questions and annoying people.
If you are a new customer it is no problem for you to get into business but you have to finalize your order.
I am very successful by doing so and as I consider no problems by this way of payment I will keep on doing so!
By the way:
I absolutely have no comprehension for people which place their order and refuse to finalize then.
If you are ordering you agree to all terms. No doubt about that.
So if you do not agree to finalize early as a new customer or a returning customer outside germany than pleace do not place your order.
Hope I can get some LIGHT into this discussion and this helps you to understand both sides.
Greets JD