Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: Asbjorn on December 19, 2011, 08:27 pm
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Hello.
I do not ask you to agree with me, but do read my reasoning for this petition before you post. Escrow does not only put sellers at high risk, but also hurts buyers. Read on.
The reason I am starting this post is because SR Support sent me a message today forbidding me to work outside of escrow.
The security issue:
Escrow substantially hurts the opsec of large scale vendors. To require vendors to keep a DCN of all transactions made is ridiculous. Firstly, this forces the shipper to show face on cameras in Post Offices and eliminates the possibility to drop at post boxes. Secondly imagine shipping 10-20 orders a day and keeping the receipt. Not only would this be a pain in the arse, but it would also be proof in court against you. Not only could they jail you for the 10 letters they seized from you at the Post Office, but they would find receipts of over 1000 orders which would exponentially increase your sentence. No vendor with the right mind would do this. Also, compromised opsec is compromised security for the buyer.
The scamming issue:
Do sellers scam buyers? Certainly. Do buyers scam sellers? They certainly do as well. Here is the difference: when a seller gets scammed he gets pissed off, everybody tells him to shut the hell up because he gets enough money anyway, the buyers gets the refund. When buyers get scammed, they form a big angry mob and drag the image of the site down. To structure the site policy in order to enhance the marketing aspect of the site is beyond me. Both sides are as likely to get scammed as each other. To prefer either side is not right.
The pricing issue:
If I would work through escrow (which I would certainly not be forced to) I would have to up my prices by 20% to make up for the scams. Maybe most sellers already have and that is why I am the most reasonably prices seller for LSD. Who knows.
The solution:
Is choice. The drug market is self regulating for a good reason. So far SR has put a few limits on this but still gives people the choice to design most of their operation. To enforce escrow as a necessity for sales puts a lid on this. It will make it impossible for me, and other large scale vendors to work on here. Nobody is forced to do business outside of escrow. But if they choose to because they trust the feedback and find the prices attractive, why put restrictions on this? I am about to go off here on a tangent about the differences between dictatorships and democracy but I will refrain. After all nobody is forcing me to sell on here either.
The practical solution:
Let the seller choose if they want to use escrow or not. And let the buyer choose whether they want to buy. You can still charge a transaction fee so you will not loose out on the money.
Either way. I think you scare a lot of potentially good vendors off with this. And I, if you do not let me work outside of escrow, will be the first one to leave. It is not a threat as I am sure you could not care less. But I am sure that in the bigger picture I am not the only one.
Let us talk.
-Asb
PS: It is a petition after all and I would like to add a poll. I guess a short post will have to do.
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Dude, the whole point of this site is escrow. That's how SR takes his cut.
If you don't like it, sell elsewhere. You really have some gall trying to jip SR out of his dues and then trying to defend yourself on his forums.
There are plenty of other sites to sport your wares. The reason SR is popular is because of the escrow system.
I am totally with you in thinking that there needs to be more buyer accountability, but all your other points are invalid.
You can get DCNs without putting your face on camera. If you don't like holding onto the DCN yourself because it can be used as evidence, encrypt the number on your puter and throw away the receipt.
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Dude, the whole point of this site is escrow. That's how SR takes his cut.
If you don't like it, sell elsewhere. You really have some gall trying to jip SR out of his dues and then trying to defend yourself on his forums.
There are plenty of other sites to sport your wares. The reason SR is popular is because of the escrow system.
I am totally with you in thinking that there needs to be more buyer accountability, but all your other points are invalid.
You can get DCNs without putting your face on camera. If you don't like holding onto the DCN yourself because it can be used as evidence, encrypt the number on your puter and throw away the receipt.
Agreed
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Wow.
Every one of your issues is wrong.
Every.
One.
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The security issue:
- i've read, can buy a strip of dcn's beforehand...
- throw out / paper shred the old ones once the sale has been closed.
- i do see there is a lot to take care of its almost like running a business, but then it almost is..
if the buyer could share this load then we wouldnt have any objection, but unfortunately the seller
can't wash his hands of it by simply claiming "its been posted".
The scamming issue:
- whats not been mentioned, what is very seldom mentioned is communication; a major cause of seller / buyer
squables is not being able to communicate / not making the effort to communicate / sellers not wanting
to communicate / buyer side communication.
- every case needs to be examined on its own, there's always different factors at play and no doubt
communication is one of them.
- "When buyers get scammed" by the same seller this is "discussed" in the forum.
when a buyer doesn't get the item, they negotiate either a part refund or the same product again.
- everyone still needs to do and hold up their end of the deal, and not take the attitude they no longer
have to provide a decent service cos of stats or they've been here for months.
The pricing issue:
- don't deal with scammers, or this shouldn't be a problem if finalised early.
The practical solution:
- fear this would lead to no escrow ie protect the seller and nothing for the buyer.
- would result in more abuse / scamming / lost parcels.
- no escrow is a step backwards
- making profit is only part of it.
- guarantee delivery to a drop "house" and buyers collect from there ?! -no, this won't work..ok so are
we back with the postal service?!
otherwise we won't want sellers like yourself to leave if there are better ways to work.
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Some of the top vendors on SR(TV, Mitanox, 3Jane, just to name a few) are pretty successful operating within the escrow system.
If I were LE(not accusing anyone of this but), I think, it would be the best strategy to infiltrate the system and then just over time persistently plant doubt, set up some scam buyers and vendors and make posts like this that say, "hey kids, escrow is bad, you should have %100 faith in a total stranger that seems real nice in PMs" ???
Personally, I would have already ordered from Street Pharmacy and Jeurgan but they don't do escrow for international so I haven't. At least they say that in their write up though, not like some vendors who pop the question after you order.
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I can understand that a high rep vendor doesn't want to bother with scammers.
What the other guys do in this case is require for finalization before posting anything (stating this clearly in their profile and products description)
I don't think that SR admins have anything against that do they? It's just that they don't want you to pick in their pool of customers and bypass them by doing sells directly by email or something
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Hey Asbjorn!
I can totally see where you are coming from and I was also thinking like you are in the beginning of my career here drooling over my escrow stats and thinking of all the new product I would be able to buy if everyone just finalized straight away but I sucked it up and took the amount of time it takes for the money to get released and cashed out in account with my business model. Vending online isnt as easy as IRL business, it just doesnt go so quick but you cant beat the security aspect :) About the DCN's I totally agree!
Warm greetings,
Mitanox
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The problem with escrow is centralization, as I have said since the beginning. Nuff said.
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Escrow is the "killer app" that draws many people to Silk Road. There are plenty of other websites where vendors can peddle their wares but Silk Road is the only one with an escrow system that protects both the seller and buyer.
When I first started I hated escrow because it took so long to get my money after sending out product. But since then I've become more patient and have a steady income stream as the proceeds from sales come in around two weeks after I send them out.
As an American you're lucky to have access to DCNs for so cheap. In Canada there are three ways of having tracking attached to an envelope. The first is registered mail which costs ~$9 and is sent via regular mail, with the only benefit that you can track it. The second and third are Xpresspost envelopes (express mail) for regional ($10) and national ($15). Granted these are delivered next day and within two days respectively, but I can't cover it for each order otherwise my profit margin would be destroyed, and I doubt my clients want to pay for it considering most have orders under $100.
I ship using regular mail and so far I haven't had *any* problems. Service with a smile and good communication goes a long way. :)
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Dude, the whole point of this site is escrow. That's how SR takes his cut.
If you don't like it, sell elsewhere. You really have some gall trying to jip SR out of his dues and then trying to defend yourself on his forums.
There are plenty of other sites to sport your wares. The reason SR is popular is because of the escrow system.
I am totally with you in thinking that there needs to be more buyer accountability, but all your other points are invalid.
You can get DCNs without putting your face on camera. If you don't like holding onto the DCN yourself because it can be used as evidence, encrypt the number on your puter and throw away the receipt.
+1
Ever since Mr Crane fucked me in the ass without a lube (cock sucker never shipped my OX80) I've been using escrow without issues! It keeps both sellers and buyers honest!
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Buyers must be rated too. If nothing else, finalization time frame averages and the "missing product, wrong counts and missing envelopes" issues need also be tracked.
+1
If not buyer ratings, I at least want to see the last 5-10 feedbacks left by the buyer. I'm getting sick and tired of scumbags extorting the feedback system for free shit and refunds.
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Look i'm going to sum it up real clear for everyone.
The Vendors are the scam problem.
Any vendor that suggest out of escrow transaction is not doing you a favor.
Silk Road was built in a way to protect the vendor and the customers equally.
So that each party takes a 50/50 chance on the transaction.
Early Finalizations and out of escrow are voids Silk Road respondsibilties, where if you would have just stayed in escrow and not finalized early there would be no problem.
Protip: Lower SR User ID# the more reliable they are.
:D
nomad bloodbath
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Personally, I would have already ordered from Street Pharmacy and Jeurgan but they don't do escrow for international so I haven't. At least they say that in their write up though, not like some vendors who pop the question after you order.
same here, there are a number of times that i havent placed an order, usually international because of this no shipping until finalize constraint. i see it as the sellers loss, and look for another source.
personally i would like the finalize to be disabled for 1 or 2 days after marking the item as in transit for all non-digital goods, possibly longer. this should stop buyers being pressured into finalizing and sellers being tempted to ask; after all, it has been said many times that the best feature of SR is the escrow. as long as both parties play by the rules, the inconvenience would be minimal.
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I have to this place has really gone to shit in the last few months I've been away. I've been a member since before escrow was implemented and there seems to be a real increase in scamming despite this. The few vendors I've dealt with in the past I trust and would probably finalise early with just to keep the peace in respect for the fact that sellers get scammed too but the whole trend of finalising early is being exploited by a few (or a lot of) people and will really be the undoing of this whole site if it isn't solved.
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cgault, where are you?
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We think the Escrow is a very good system for Buyers. As a Seller, you should have at least 1 month cash flow reserve if you start, this is part of your business plan, isn´t?
Let the market, our customers, decide if they want to be protected with escrow ;D and hedging or if they give you the money straight ??? and wait for your order to arrive :D or not to arrive :'(.
There are tons of threads in the forum all starting with " I lost XXX BTC, because I trusted YYY"
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I don't think escrow should be removed in any way. The only additional piece of information you as a seller need is one more stat from the buyer - autofinalize/total transactions. You already have all of the information - how many transactions they have done, and what % of those transactions they have had issue with.
From this, you create a policy. This is what I hav done. I don't any buyer use escrow that has 3 or less completed transactions, and/or a refund rate over 0%. They have to use direct buy, and do not qualify for discounts. For established buyers I offer an either/or. I give you a price discount and free shipping if you use my "custom/bulk orders" option and send the rest of the funds up front, or you pay full pop if you want to use escrow.
Most established customers on here PM me and say they want the discount for direct-buy. I am more than happy to oblige, because the money I lose on the discount is about equal to value I feel I gain from being able to recontribute to my float immediately. but some opt for escrow, and that is cool. If I see something funky in their stats, I will message them and tell them to get an established vendor to vouch for them. This is another reason I recommend customers post to my forum topic after they have received the product - I can refer another vendor to the forum topic and tell them to do business with you, if they have any doubts.
I have piled up a lot of transactions on here by now. My feedback rating is currently 99.9% and I'm over the max showable transaction number (by a lot). I think this is because of communication. I message my buyers when they purchase, even if there's no issue just to let them know I'm acknowledging their buy, and I always try to send a follow up message once they have received. If buyers have any questions I try to get right on them and grab them an answer (which sometimes requires a fuck of a lot of typing). I think this is the difference between a 99.9% feedback and a 95% or lower feedback - customers know I'm not fucking around because I take them seriously.
There is an important point to be made, as far as being able to put up the direct-buy option in the first place. I waiting until I had 100 completed in-escrow transactions before I even made it an option. I don't think new sellers, or even sellers with only a few dozen completes, should be demanding OOE. Buyers, you should be rejecting this 100%. Any seller that completely rejects escrow period should be ostracized by the buyer community. Despite the centralization aspect, it is the thing that has kept SR growing and keeps customers around for the long haul.
Yes, escrow pisses me off sometimes, and yes, every single OOE order I have ever shipped has arrived and the only two problems i have had have been in-escrow customers claiming they didn't receive. But I'm not going to refuse the system. That's not what selling on SR is about. The only other piece of information I wish I had access to was how often a buyer lets things run to autofinalize, because that always annoys me. I KNOW they are sitting at home smoking my product for days before my funds are released. It's not a problem that happens a lot, but when you've got two or three ounces out of a pound you shipped that week that are rolling on to auto-finalize, it can be irksome.
Anyway this became a massive rant so I'm cutting it off here. Bottom Line: Refusing escrow should be ostracized by buyers and called out. It's a potential scam in the making - if a seller happens to hit a huge volume of sales OOE he might decide to pack up shop for his "free" 5 grand and return in a few months and start over as someone else. Don't tolerate it. Options are nice, dead refusal is a no-no.
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"...don't they know its christmas..time.."
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The DCN issue is not a non issue for those in the US, I can walk into my post office grab a stack of 100 off the shelf and walk out with them at 3am when no one is there. Then it is just a matter of applying the DCN sticker in addition to a $0.80 stamp with your normal postage.
Also keep in mind you cannot use DCNs with a regular first class letter.
Priority Mail or regular First Class parcels, yes.
From the USPS website FAQ
This service provides the date, time, and location of the delivery or delivery attempt. Delivery Confirmation can be used with:
Parcels (Letters not eligible) -
Priority Mail®
Package Services Parcels - Includes Parcel Post®, Media Mail®, Bound Printed Matter (paid by permit imprint only), and Library Mail.
Standard Mail® Parcels - must be less than 16 ounces and mailed at the electronic price.
Parcel Select® - must be mailed at the electronic price
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What flips me out is I have to contact SO MANY CLIENTS and remind them to finalize. Granted, most are new and I have no problem educating or assisting them. But MANY are not and know the rules here all too well. You don't go into Walmart and just leave with a product and send in the money when you get around to it! You pay immediately!!!!
It is fucking annoying. Better than nothing but far from perfect.
- the quick fix is either :
- for newbies or reg buyers - the system finalises the deal based on their poor finalise rate
- for the rest - "3 counts and you're out", 3 clear precise emails requesting to finalise max 1 per day.....closes the deal excl. when item hasn't been received yet.
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yakyak:
- sellers will vary in terms of their own business model, where their main clients are, who is ripping them off, and their supply chain and quantity.
- hence why sellers end up stating conditions of sale, where they're not shipping to, destinations where out-of-escrow is preferred cos it affects cash flow....etc
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good riddance then.
rusty
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good riddance then.
rusty
...what good riddance? -the sooner the seller can turn the product into cash the sooner he can buy more.?!
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How many of the top 10 sellers require finalize early (at least for international order)?
If you are going to terminate vendors like that, just because you are lazy to investigate complaints of scams due to finalizing early, vendors are gonna start their own sites; for example great vendor like DiMiTri, etc. they are going to sell their products cheaper than on SR (no SR commission, no exchange fees), furthermore avoiding the $150 seller's account.
You are going to start terminating sellers without warning from the said date onwards, without even first discussing with fellow members here?
Thanks for being cold-heartedly merciless even if I am the #1 vendor, and had provided SR a sustainable salary of commission for a few months.