Silk Road forums

Discussion => Off topic => Topic started by: sumaro on October 31, 2011, 11:25 am

Title: Thieves market
Post by: sumaro on October 31, 2011, 11:25 am
Have you ever seen this?

Buttery Bootlegging
http://627kx22vati6uqkw.onion

I saw it yesterday and I thought that it will be great idea if you open a new "thieves market" :D ( with escrow services as it is now on SR )
You have already the framework, so it should be easy.

Thieves will get scores from users as it is on Silk Road for sellers.
Thieves will write where they can steal ( ex: Buttery Bootlegging )


Option 1:
User will give a look to profiles of thieves, and after he will found a good one  ... he will start a private conversation with him.

Option 2:
The user ( customer ) will write the he/she want an object ( ex: mobile phone model )
Thieves instead will make offers. They wont be able to see other thieves offers ( to avoid cartels ), but they will see offers numbers.
Then the user will make his choice by looking at the offers prices and thieves scores.
Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: anarcho47 on October 31, 2011, 01:17 pm
It's a neat concept.

The only problem is that this idea completely violates the NAP - you know, recognizing people's property rights etc.  It's kind of hypocritical for a website to protect the property rights of one group of buyers and sellers while making its livelihood off of the violation of those same rights in the f2f world. 

Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: sumaro on October 31, 2011, 01:39 pm
You are partially right, but I see a trick on these rules.

The thief is already risking himself, his body, his freedom....
It's already paying for his actions, so I see an "exchange".

To make it working properly, we can add some rules.
1) The thief can't seriously hurt or kill anyone during his actions or he will be blacklisted.
2) He can't steal and/or accept to steal from some kind of persons ( ex: poor people )
3) Other ideas?

So it's possible to add some ethics and rules ...
We can discuss to find some way to force the thief to prove that he has done everything right.
Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: anarcho47 on October 31, 2011, 02:48 pm
Well, I guess my point is that even if it's a "soft" theft (no actual "person" on the line), somebody is ALWAYS a victim when property is stolen.

Even if it ends up being an insurance company that forks over for the theft, every shareholder in that insurance company (and with general insurance you are talking a lot of pensioners/retired people) gets nailed because that comes straight out of the bottom line which normally translates into a portion of that dividend cheque the grandma is using to buy groceries and pay electricity bills with.

The only party I can actually see it being justified to steal from is the State itself.  It is not a REAL entity (exists only on paper and because they have a shitload of guns they use to remind us they "exist"), it does NOT have shareholder representation, and all of its funds are obtained via theft upon the threat of violence in the first place.  If someone steals from the state they aren't really stealing, they are just returning property back to private society and voluntary market participants rather than leaving it in the hands of a destructive, violent monopoly.

If you could work something like THAT out, I would be down for sure ;)
Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: sumaro on October 31, 2011, 03:06 pm
I still think that with some good rules there wont be serious victims.
Stealing some products from supermarkets wont go so bad, and you are also assuming that the theft goes well everytime, and that isn't true.
The first possible serious victim is the thief himself, it will risk everything ... for an object.
However, he remains free to choose to steal it or not.

Buttery Bootlegging is already opened, so I'm sure that others will come.
The best thing is opening a market before it goes on some wrong directions.

ex: I love SR because it's the mainstream but it doesn't allow to sell anything that can hurt someone else.

So I like the idea of "Thieves market" that push some good rules and ethics to the thieves community! :)

Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: anarcho47 on October 31, 2011, 07:23 pm
I can see the appeal.  I really can.

But it's not something I could get on board with.  A non-serious victim is still a victim.  Hell, most of us are victims of theft via state-violence every day.  Why exacerbate it and migrate the damage over to private society.  There are enough assholes on public payroll as it is.....

As such, I have to cast a nay vote.  Unless, again, you are talking about going Robin Hood and hiring people to take it straight to the thieves themselves.  Then I'm all in.
Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: sd4sd4 on October 31, 2011, 08:41 pm
Quote from: sumaro
I love SR because it's the mainstream but it doesn't allow to sell anything that can hurt someone else.
Which is why many of us like it here. You know PLUR and all that. Fuck thieves, scammers and everyone who profits from other people's misery.
Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: sumaro on November 01, 2011, 05:36 am
I understand your concerns, but I see the same problem on the "Assassination Market"
Everyone knows that it will happen. Someone will make it.
There already some hitman pages on onion world.

The problem here is that it can be a bad thing to just hire someone to kill his neighbors, challenger in love and many other "stupid" situations.
So I fell that the solution is to manage it before it get bad ways, as I said by spreading rules and ethics on a mainstream website.

I repeat, even if you don't like it, it will happen ... we should mark a good path.

Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: axaxax on November 01, 2011, 09:30 am
Quote from: sumaro
I love SR because it's the mainstream but it doesn't allow to sell anything that can hurt someone else.
Which is why many of us like it here. You know PLUR and all that. Fuck thieves, scammers and everyone who profits from other people's misery.

This!!!
Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: amush on November 01, 2011, 05:20 pm
I understand your concerns, but I see the same problem on the "Assassination Market"
Everyone knows that it will happen. Someone will make it.
There already some hitman pages on onion world.

The problem here is that it can be a bad thing to just hire someone to kill his neighbors, challenger in love and many other "stupid" situations.
So I fell that the solution is to manage it before it get bad ways, as I said by spreading rules and ethics on a mainstream website.

I repeat, even if you don't like it, it will happen ... we should mark a good path.

Rape, and child abduction are also things that will happen even though I don't like it... That does not mean I will mark a good path. My lines are drawn when people impose themselves on other people.
Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: sumaro on November 01, 2011, 06:19 pm
I'm not talking about a "hurt-someone market".
Mixing rape and child abduction with a theft from the super market is beyond logic.
Anyway, we will see ...
Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: amush on November 01, 2011, 06:29 pm
Thievery isn't just segregated to supermarkets. They can extend to small private owned shops, Pawn shops(where a coveted item might actually be), a persons home(where someone saw something they liked or what not).

Besides, that wasn't your argument. Your stance as to why it should be supported pretty much boiled down to "it will happen whether you like it or not, we might as well try and organise it." Hence what I said as a retort, which is not beyond logic.
Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: sumaro on November 01, 2011, 06:42 pm
Thievery isn't just segregated to supermarkets. They can extend to small private owned shops, Pawn shops(where a coveted item might actually be), a persons home(where someone saw something they liked or what not).
You are right.
All I can say is that I hope nobody gets hurt.
Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: amush on November 01, 2011, 06:50 pm
Thievery isn't just segregated to supermarkets. They can extend to small private owned shops, Pawn shops(where a coveted item might actually be), a persons home(where someone saw something they liked or what not).
You are right.
All I can say is that I hope nobody gets hurt.

As anarcho pointed out earlier, someone always gets hurt. Hurt doesn't always mean the physical. You are also neglecting the financial or even the mental situations of a given victim. I can not and would not put my support behind that type of enterprise.
Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: sumaro on November 01, 2011, 07:00 pm
I still see some exceptions, so as I said I hope that good rules and ethics will push thieves ( current and future ) to work only in that space/range of situations.
Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: amush on November 01, 2011, 07:04 pm
I still see some exceptions, so I said I hope that good rules and ethics will push thieves ( current and futures ) to work only in that space/range of situations.

The problem is you are trying to suggest there can be sets of rules or ethical actions while commiting an unethical act. That is rather backwards.

Hit men could kill their victims using hypoxia(something we know gives a sense of euphoria to the person about to buy the farm) and it would still be unethical to be killing.
Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: sumaro on November 01, 2011, 07:21 pm
Stealing something from a super-market can sure be unethical for someone.
Will anybody get hurt? No.
Is it an exception between many other situations of theft? Yes.
So I quote myself:
Quote
I hope that good rules and ethics will push thieves ( current and futures ) to work only in that space/range of situations.

Stop mixing different topics ( as kill, rape someone ) with the main discussion.
Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: amush on November 01, 2011, 08:08 pm
Stealing something from a super-market can sure be unethical for someone.
Will anybody get hurt? No.
Wrong, just go back and re-read anarcho's posts again

Quote
Is it an exception between many other situations of theft? Yes.
No, there really isn't.

Quote
So I quote myself:
Quote
I hope that good rules and ethics will push thieves ( current and futures ) to work only in that space/range of situations.

Stop mixing different topics ( as kill, rape someone ) with the main discussion.

This is the main discussion and in discussions we are allowed to give analogies to help aid our arguments. It is never ment to be confused with the main argument. That is how discourse works.
Title: Re: Thieves market
Post by: SR User on November 03, 2011, 03:42 pm
This is a shit idea.

You could never implement a "only steal from corporations/governments" system. If there's money to be made, people will bend the rules. SR is a good example of that. Yes there are many great vendors but there's enough scammers around too. While it may be the minority of thieves that steal from anyone, how would you feel if it was you they stole from?

Regardless of religion, theft goes against natural behavior. If an animal steals from another and gets caught, there will generally be retaliation. To me this shows that some things are universal and therefore should be avoided.