Silk Road forums
Support => Feature requests => Topic started by: phubaiblues on October 31, 2011, 02:16 am
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I've never been ripped. I don't propose this for any reason other than to protect inexperienced buyers and help ensure SR's survival. This site is based on three items that make it exceptional. Tor, Bitcoins, and Escrow. I think we need all three to continue.
I may not have been the first, but I hadn't noticed anyone else doing it, so I take responsibility for starting the practice of finalizing early: a few months ago, due to some problems sellers were having with escrow, and buyers not bothering to finalize in a timely manner, I resolved to start finalizing early with trusted sellers. I mentioned it on several threads as a positive move, a way to show appreciation for good sellers. I've never had a problem with it, and I still like finalizing early for sellers I know and trust.
However, over the last couple months it's gone from being a buyer option, to a seller request. Once it became commonplace, ripoffs began. New sellers would request the lifting of escrow, often with no intention of delivery. Worse still, *mediocre* sellers, who would deliver occasionally, began to request it also, and it became coercive. This meant buyers were often left with no recourse if the seller did not deliver.
Buyers often hate to complain in these forums, if they have lifted escrow--or finalized early--as they feel that their chances of getting delivery diminish even further, so I'll just put it out here, hoping something can be done about this. I include finalizing early, along with the bypassing of escrow altogether, in some cases. Both are being abused.
Proposed solutions vary: The only one I can see really working is mandatory escrow for all, using it the way we used to, with no finalizing early, or going outside of SR to pay. Perhaps others have some better ideas on this, but I don't like what's been happening, and feel we need to improve this.
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I agree -- escrow is one of the pillars of SR, and it appears significantly weakened. I don't know what the solution is. Perhaps add a "fraud insurance" fee to a buyer's first purchase on SR, so that sellers don't feel the need to ask new buyers to finalize early?
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maybe sellers could offer a dcn # and make it mandatory for new buyers to purchase this option?
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I think buyers just need to stop lifting early if it bugs them that much. If enough buyers do it, sellers won't make any money, and things will revert back to normalcy pretty quickly.
I don't discourage escrow in any way. However, I also encourage buyers to buy directly from me so I get the cashflow immediately. I don't coerce, but I encourage - buyers can use all of the SR protections they want, but they will pay full price for my product and a shipping fee. Buyers who wish to buy directly from me, foregoing the protection of SR escrow and instead relying entirely on my reputation as a seller, may do so. They will be rewarded with a 5% discount plus free shipping (currently it's 10% for my Halloween sale).
I think coercing buyers to release is dirty. That should be a big no-no. However, if both parties are walking into the transaction knowing the risks full well, OOE shouldn't be eliminated as an option.
Also, I didn't start offering direct-buy off the hop. I EARNED my rep. It wasn't even something I considered until I had 100 completed transactions within escrow. This made the transition natural - I haven't had a single issue with direct-buy customers yet, and they can't scam me for a partial refund (if that's the intent) by using escrow protection. Hell, I even accidentally swapped packages a couple of weeks ago - one guy ordered a half and got a whole oz, the other ordered the z and got half - I have since topped him up, even though I have the money and I could have said "tough luck".
But my rep is important to me. Not like some posers who say "reputation is everything", but because by coincidence my reputation is commensurate to the amount of money my family has. Despite being entirely self-interested, I end up being one of the most steadfast sellers on here, which makes it not "despite" at all, but "because".
That's my 2 cents. Sorry for the rant lol.
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Name and shame vendors who insist on this practice.
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I'm just trying to find a way to make it what it was originally: where escrow is the norm. New sellers, sellers having troubles delivering, they stay in escrow naturally. But I finalize early for guys I know pretty good, they come thru, if for some reason they didn't, I'd work it out with them. Me and other buyers started doing that, to lighten the burden on sellers. I wouldn't want that to go anywhere.
I think there should be something in place, tho, where going out of escrow should be limited to certain people. It's just all too easy now, for a new seller, or a seller who has had trouble making deliveries, to get buyers to go outside of escrow. I'm pretty much talking about new sellers and new buyers. I don't want to complicate this shit, I like this site, but I think it would be right, on our part, to find a way to protect the people who *don't* get over here to forums, and don't realize just how easy the feedback can be manipulated, that it takes a bit of experience, and time on the forums so you can read thru the bs, to know which sellers really are good and respected, which just have a few friends, and which are downright predatory.
I don't think it should be a rite of passage, for newbies to be ripped of a few hundred dollars, which I seem to be seeing a lot of lately. There should be some easy solution...I used to think the best option would be to somehow get newbies to forums, or make new sellers have to use escrow, but none of them seem quite right. As it stands, we're getting too many rips, and this place didn't have that rep when I got here, and it was all escrow...
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I agree with you 100% phubaiblues, Escrow is one of the pillars that make SR strong and we should be using it. I have been on both sides of the fence IRL so I understand the cash flow problems that sellers have, compounded on here by the escrow system, but it is one of those things that should just be accepted. Yes, sellers will need more financial backing to keep things flowing on here but the escrow system is here to protect buyers. I really do not understand it when people go OOE with a new seller then are surprised when they get ripped off, its not difficult people!
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I do agree with everything you guys have said. One big way to help this would be SR throwing a short write-up on the main page with the other notes on the right. Something like "Using Escrow - Important".
There you could cover that if you are planning on doing business with a new seller, do NOT go outside of escrow. I mean, fuck, it's pretty common sense to some of us, but it seems like a lot of newbs come here all starry-eyed at the very concept of legitimately being able to buy drugs online, overwhelmed by the security and BTC acquisition process, and take the juicy offerings put up by brand new sellers. Probably a similar personality to the people who respond to Nigerian princes and their barristers, and people who pay a really cheap rate for an out-of-town roofing company who's around doing roofs "for the next few weeks".
I think you have to EARN out of escrow. Not by any set metric, mind you, but you need to bleed a little, suck it up and take the float tie-up for the first while. I didn't even offer the option for out of escrow until I had over 100 sales. And even still, it's not mandatory unless you are a brand new buyer (I was scammed a couple of times, and they were all brand new accounts). But otherwise, it's totally voluntary and I decide to reward getting my money immediately with a bit of a discount. But if a buyer with clean stats doesn't want to do that, they are more than welcome to use the protective system provided.
The only situation that I won't do escrow for (or even put up a listing) is bulk. I won't risk that much cash for someone to try to rip a 50% refund out of me at minimum, especially since my margin is so much thinner on bulk as it is.
Maybe we should start calling out these sellers? A "Suspicious Practices" thread where only members who have a user # below 10k and at least 50 posts on the forums are allowed to point out sellers sticking it to the new buyers. Or start messaging them and forward their usernames to SR and getting them to contact these possible-scammers. I'm not saying that everyone doing this actually IS a scammer, but a buyer is 100 times more likely to get ripped off by these types than vetted and proven vendors. Especially in categories like H or meth where buyers are a lot more "eager" for their fix. I have no problem going after these guys who can easily scam (and are scamming a lot of the time), because every scammed buyer is someone who could potentially never come back. And that hurts my own bottom line, which in turn makes me want to stomp on the scamming prick's ball-sack.
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Here's a good example:
http://ianxz6zefk72ulzz.onion/index.php/silkroad/item/12297
dmtdoodeelsd has 0 transactions and is ranked 217/217, yet won't ship until he has funds. I wouldn't be using this vendor without escrow ever.
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Yeah, the more I think about it, the tougher it seems: I mean, I want to keep the good sellers right to have people who know them, finalize early, like I do, but at the same time protect newbs from this new tendency of sellers to rip...I've thought of all kinds of things, but they all have some drawback or another...and anarcho47 said exactly how I felt when I got here...I couldn't wait to order something, hell, was chasing down btc in amazon, ebay, haha, anywhere...I didn't even *think* about getting ripped off, and I didn't even understand excrow, I just figured this site was protecting me somehow, since openweb is full of ripoff drug sites...
I don't know if this is new or not, but it's a great warning, when you buy, the one that comes up when you click on 'add to cart, where you put in your addy, says:
"ATTENTION: If you finalize early or pay your seller directly, you do so at your OWN risk"
I hadn't seen that one before, and that is great that it is up now, I'm going to put it in my sig I think :)
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Here is my two cents:
I have been on SR for a little over a month and have some transactions under my belt now. One thing that seems all to common now is "Must Release Funds Early" WTF happened to escrow?
As a new buyer I finalized early for two people themunchies and PaythePiper here is why:
1. themunchies requested I do as a new buyer. Okay I get that, he doesn't wanna be ripped off anymore than I do. If his rep hadn't been as good as it was or if he wasn't active in the forums. i would have gone elsewhere. Things went well and I received my package although next time I deal it will be through escrow as this is a fair shake for my trust in the beginning. The order wasn't huge but it was for several hundred dollars. Thank God I chose him all the other H dealers smell like traps to me.(Aphex excluded) Cant wait for themunchies lists his goods again.
2.PaythePiper's profile specifically stated "if your order is over X dollars you must release funds early" So I knew going into the deal what to expect. I understand this is a way to limit his potential for loss. (Although I did try to keep it under the limit and he has since lowered the limit). Okay so I guess now I will just make multiple small orders if I wanna stay in escrow. Otherwise I will just have to "PaythePiper" (Bad Pun) if I want to exceed his stated amount. His package also arrived no problem. He also had a good rep with numerous transactions.
Now I have established a small rep here and I am working on making it better.
As for the escrow deal.....
What the fuck? I thought escrow was the foundation of the whole system. I don't give my money to some stranger on the street and say okay come back in 3 days with my dope.
I also understand that sellers get ripped of too and they are not in control of the mail. All I seem to read now in the forums is about people getting ganked. 18kct. PUBLICALLY ANNOUNCED HIS INTENT TO START GANKING!
Anyway I digress......
Here are some suggestions for escrow systems changes:
Sellers:
1. Start showing user names along with the items purchased on the seller feedback page.(Oh this seller has been a member for 4 days, has 20 5/5 transactions from 6 users who have only been members for 3 days......hhmmmmmmmm.)
2. New Sellers with less than "X" transactions cannot receive early finalization. Period. Make it so the button does not activate for their sales.
3. After a Seller reaches "X" transactions and a =/> "?" reputation make a 50/50 early finalize available(Both Buyer and Seller share the risk equally)
4. After a Seller reaches "Y" transactions and a =/> "?" reputation make a 100% early finalize available (Buyer still do your research)
5. Add an additional "Received"/"Not Received" ranking for Sellers.
6. Grandfather this so established Sellers get the ranking they deserve.
Buyers:
1. New Buyers with less than say "X" transactions and "Y" reputation must 50/50 early finalize.(Both Buyer and Seller share the risk equally)
2. After Buyer reaches > than "X" transactions and =/> "Y" reputation full escrow system except at their discretion with Sellers of appropriate number of sales and rank.
3. Incorporate the ranking system for Buyers as well as Sellers.
4. Rank Buyers on # of transactions, refunds and auto finalizes.(Higher rank from more transactions, less from refunds, less from auto finalizes and Received/Not Received reports.)
Additionally Buyers must understand this is a Seller's market no matter what you think. If you could score this stuff right outside your door there would be no need to have a SR.
Jesus people if it looks to good to be true it is probably NOT TRUE! Don't be naive. Read the forums!
Well these are just some rough ideas please comment on it. I in no way think this a complete solution to the problem. I would love to here what people think.
If I wanna get jacked trying to score I can walk down the block and get ganked. Escrow is there for a reason and with people bragging about setting up scams something needs to change.
Alright people DISCUSS!
grinny
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I think it's getting worse, not better. I think maybe enough of us will have to get together and make a personal plea to SilkRoad himself, or something. I believe that honest sellers realize this is in their longterm best interest also. It doesn't affect me or experienced people on here, it mostly nails the newcomers...but I"m starting to read more on 'outside' sites that we are ripoffs, and before I could defend SR, but it's getting harder: new people don't come here knowing who to trust, and how to go about things...and a persuasive, friendly sounding seller can convince them he is an oldtimer on here, and because legit sellers are forcing newbies to finalize early, the scammers do it with ease.
I think at the very least, we need to ask that all new vendors stay within escrow for their first 100 verified transactions, or some way to keep this new scam from continuing to proliferate. What's been happening, is, ever since vendors started requiring newbies, or large transactions, to finalize early, scam artists have jumped at the opportunity. We can say all day long on here: who is good, who is bad...but that doesn't protect the majority of new people, who don't know about the forums.
Yes, there is a warning now--the one that's in my signature--and I do appreciate SR doing that, but I think we need to go a step further to protect the longterm viability of the site, and honestly, I don't like ripoffs anyway, and don't like the simple fact that someone is new and trusting, make it ok to steal from them.
Once again: this site is based on escrow and btc: both these fundamentals are being threatened, and essentially, so is Silk Road, so we need to find a way out of this, and I think it will take intervention, and change in rules to where a new vendor simply cannot avoid escrow...
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250+ transactions. 5 months. 100%. Semi active on the forums. Great feedback. Put that all together and you have a good idea of who you can trust. Just an example of some vendor I looked up. 8)
I have asked for early release of btc. Recently in fact. I took care of my business and my friends. Thanks for helping out guys. They all received dcn or tracking numbers. Some got extras. They would have gotten it anyway, it's just nice security for both parties. And who doesn't like a freebie now and again? Right, lol? But it's not a habit. Some frequent buyers that know the deal and are comfortable with it. You know I am. Ya, let it go.
Other reputable vendors have their rules and opinions. And it works for them and their buyers. Great. Just wait on leaving feedback board. I hate reading "will edit later. F.E. Thanks a lot." I almost always let the process go as planned. I WAIT FOR ESCROW to be released. A few days. So what? As long as I'm not in a jam or have expensive shipping costs. I may send a message asking why hasn't escrow been released yet?" occasionally. But not often.
I HATE hearing about someone being scammed b/c they finalized early w/a new vendor w/ fake feedback. Do your homework peeps. Try to stay within the SR system. Escrow is good. :)
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I agree I think these new sellers demanding out of escrow is way out of line. They are leaving all of us buyers to potentially be ripped, which obviously is becoming common place. Yes I understand trusted vendors who have been here and have built themselves a positive reputation, I don't mind them. The sellers I do mind are the new ones who are forcing the early finalization out of escrow crap, what makes them special and trustworthy? Sure they don't want to get ripped, but I feel us buyers have a much higher chance of being ripped.
I have two ideas that may help reduce the risk of being scammed buy an unknown rouge vendor.
1. Make the vendor put a deposit down to SR on top of their buyer account fee. Lets say the deposit is $500 or even $1000. Okay now that deposit is held by SR in case that seller does decide to start scamming. So the vendor begins scamming, SR can then start passing out portions of the deposit out to those who have been scammed. If the vendor never turns out to scam he may get the deposit back when leaving SR.
2. Require the vendor to reach a certain number of transactions before allowing the early finalization, or you could use a a combo of a set amount of time and number of transactions. SR could make it where the vendor has to have 50 transactions and 30days before being able to request early finalization. SR could do this by making the release fund button inactive until 5 or 7 days after the package is marked in transit.
I really don't see the deposit working, especially for vendors moving smaller amounts of product but do feel that the second option would be relatively easy to implement. Actually SR could put the deposit on a sliding scale related to cost and amount of product the vendor is listing.
Regardless of what happens, I do hope SR will step in and implement something to help reduce the SCAMS!
Peace
bupebuddy
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This is an excellent thread. I'm really grateful everyone has posted on here, imparting bits of wisdom here and there.
As a new buyer I feel kinda bad that having to FE is expected of me, I mean, if I communicate well enough and constantly with a seller isn't it enough that I be allowed to stay in escrow? Christ I now about finalizing an order after having received it I'm not vapid enough to let it finalize on it's own way later than expected of me.
Having to pay for others mistakes is never nice, but I get it with the history of scams/scammers.
Like anarcho said, new sellers shouldn't expect established or new buyers to FE, that should be earned.
And new buyers such as myself should remember these people are providing quality product with excellent and PROFESSIONAL service, something I have never even experienced in my LIFE. The Silk Road is like a god send to me!
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Escrow agreements are always acompanied by clearly describing what will happen in the event that in this case the seller does not deliver. On this the buyer can agree to take on risk beforehand, decrease the risk of the vendor as well as the cost for hedging in a possibly tumultuous market. And silcroad would only need to acknowledge such a contract and judge according to the express will of both parties to have clarity of outcome beforehand thus increasing the knowledge of risk and success and consequence to avoid suprises. This goes together with a standard feedback form stating: Item not received, and a neutral feedback score 3/5