Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: SR User on October 26, 2011, 11:54 am
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Hey everyone. Someone a while ago posted a similar thread stating that early finalizing made him/her nervous. I completely agree. On the other hand I can see the vendors point of view as BitCoin is so unstable.
Do you think a 'half now', 'half on delivery' method would benefit both buyers and sellers? In short, the seller receives 50% of the product price straight away and the remaining 50% would be in escrow which gets released if the product turns up. It wouldn't prevent the problem of BitCoin fluctuations but would minimize it.
Persisent non releasers / non delivery would result in the remaining funds being credited where they are due and the user taking advantage of trust being blocked for a specified time.
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hedging is in place to protect vendors from BTC fluctuation. they get the same value in $$. they ask to release early for other reasons.
50% at once and 50% on delivery would mean that scammers would still get 50% of money without sending anything.
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hedging is in place to protect vendors from BTC fluctuation. they get the same value in $$. they ask to release early for other reasons.
50% at once and 50% on delivery would mean that scammers would still get 50% of money without sending anything.
I agree. Escrow is in place. if your vendor doesn't use it. You make the call on whether you use him or not. Bikerbum
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Silk Road Guidelines you ever read it?
In the freeworld that is SR we take advantage of bending the rules that were designed to protect us and what do we do. We act like they don't exist.
Everyday new member, new vendors.
New members think out of escrow because the guidelines are not being followed by the Vendors.
So for the no reputation new vendors, you should stay in escrow and everything is clear until 20 or so transactions. That way you earn your BTC instead hey that scamming looks good to me now.
Finalizing Early for oversea order is ridiculous and if you are on the Early Finalize for domestic that's ever more screwed up.
I've never once finalized early.
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This seems to be becoming more common among new buyers. Yesterday I had 2 new buyers finalize early once I marked their shipments in transit. I didn't request this and I'm not sure why they did it. I don't mind I guess but it seems like they would be opening themselves up to be scammed if they continue this practice. I wonder where this trend is coming from?
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I wonder where this trend is coming from?
It's coming from vendors requesting to finalize early. Eventually it became sort of a nice gesture, and majority of the people on SR are people who like to do nice things.. Too bad SRM isn't that futuristic place of true freedom and humanism it might seem in the first high moments, so there is certain kind of people in here, who try to exploit that kindness of others for their selfish gain, like everywhere else in the modern world.
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I would like to see the finalize button only activated after a set number of days, similar to the resolve button. 2-3 days to me seems fair to protect buyers from either accidentally, or being talked into clicking it early. maybe if it only required the wait time for a set number of transactions, then veteran buyers who want to finalize immediately will be able to do so. I know silk road shouldn't need to hold the hands of buyers by forcing them to wait, but I think it would help to cut down on people being burned this way. I read a post about this before, and people selling digital downloads and such didn't like it, but they don't really have their money tied up in product the way that people selling an actual physical product do, so they should be able to wait a couple days if real sellers can.
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Any BTC I finalize early on are BTC I give a 50/50 shot of losing and keep it that way in my head.
The list of those I would finalize early on is short and the reasons few.
That said, I have taken Mseller up on his 30% more and 30% off deal for early finalization twice and both times he has come through.
An early finalizer should be seen as a venture capitalist. His reasons should be a better deal offered for the risk, a personal want for a given seller to remain capitalized and therefore (ideally) in stock, or, in a rare case of good faith, a gesture to make sure the vendor is paid in case something like last week happens and we can't get on to finalize even though we have had the goods for days. That happened to me and I felt crappy about it. I was quite relieved to get on and finalize the moment I could.
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It isn't possible to track a package once it is out of the USA and it is very easy for a customer to claim they never received anything and there is nothing a vendor could do about it!
I don't think it is unreasonable at all for a vendor to ask international customers to release early. Vendors should protect themselves just like buyers do.
The most important thing is to check the forums and to read feedback before making a purchase.
NEVER go out of escrow with a new vendor. Especially not if you are buying something worth hundreds of dollars. This should be common sense!
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Vendors should protect themselves just like buyers do.
European vendors have no way of tracking their letter even when sending in EU. Once in a while there seems to come that trusted vendor who scams on his way out. I would rather order out of escrow completely for a larger order than finalize early. I don't know how resolution center works, but doesn't it protect sellers as well as buyers?
How many packages of yours were claimed as lost so far, Davidd?
I haven't seem a single buyer scam report on these forums so far. It might be because those are hard to prove, but they doesn't seem to be nearly as common as seller scams.
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I specifically request that buyers not finalize their orders before they receive them because I like to know when exactly my orders arrive or when my packages are taking longer than they should. It irks me when I get a PM from some guy saying, "hey I placed an order from you 2 weeks ago, but it still hasn't arrived" and of course by that time I've already thrown away the tracking number so I don't have anyway of knowing whether or not I'm being conned.
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This seems to be becoming more common among new buyers. Yesterday I had 2 new buyers finalize early once I marked their shipments in transit. I didn't request this and I'm not sure why they did it. I don't mind I guess but it seems like they would be opening themselves up to be scammed if they continue this practice. I wonder where this trend is coming from?
yea i been getting the same well messaging me asking how they finalize thinking they had to finalize for me to send it out. i dont like all this finalize early stuff open up ppl to scaming also i can mix up my DNC #. it looks like new ppl think they have to finalizing early.
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it would definitely be a bad idea for SR to have a built-in early-finalize feature (50/50 or otherwise). the practice shouldn't be encouraged, especially for new buyers. if that's really what you want to do, you might as well pay the seller directly anyways.
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I can understand why some vendors would like to have buyers outside their own country finalize early, especially to some of the more drug war crazy countries such as Australia. Finalizing early within your own borders is pointless really but I think some buyers just do it out of courtesy.
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As someone who just made their first purchase from someone in Europe I'm kind of scared to finalize before I get my product. I haven't been asked yet to do it but I do think that if I'm asked to finalize before I get my shit I should be rewarded with some extras. I just don't feel comfortable doing it and I don't feel like I should be forced to do it or my order is going to be cancelled (I'm not saying this is the case with my purchase but from what I've read in the forums it seems like it happens).
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As someone who just made their first purchase from someone in Europe I'm kind of scared to finalize before I get my product. I haven't been asked yet to do it but I do think that if I'm asked to finalize before I get my shit I should be rewarded with some extras. I just don't feel comfortable doing it and I don't feel like I should be forced to do it or my order is going to be cancelled (I'm not saying this is the case with my purchase but from what I've read in the forums it seems like it happens).
then find another vendor if that happens.
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As someone who just made their first purchase from someone in Europe I'm kind of scared to finalize before I get my product. I haven't been asked yet to do it but I do think that if I'm asked to finalize before I get my shit I should be rewarded with some extras. I just don't feel comfortable doing it and I don't feel like I should be forced to do it or my order is going to be cancelled (I'm not saying this is the case with my purchase but from what I've read in the forums it seems like it happens).
then find another vendor if that happens.
Yeah, I would but what sucks is he has what I want for a decent price.
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ive finalized early, it was my 1st purchase, and was asked to by the vendor, although thought it only applied to int orders, but vendor asked me to Finalize early. Also asked to get it sent SD, and vendor asked for 2bc , which i paid too.
am i in teh shit? the seller has 48 odd transactons and feedback 91%, but a lot of the 5 star feedback is saying "finlaized early..." althogbh some have said theyve received......
ive snet a couple of message shortly after the transaction asking for an et delivery, with SD. no response to 2 messages. In teh event i dont receive anything, how do i go about refunds? what are my chances?
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In teh event i dont receive anything, how do i go about refunds? what are my chances?
There is no recourse except negotiating with the seller directly and convincing him/her to give you a refund. Your chances depend on your powers of persuasion and the seller's good will.
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I just want to sympathize with the seller's point of view.
In the real world you can start selling drugs with only a few $100's. You invest in some product, sell it all, you can reinvest in more the next day.
On the internet it's not so easy. You need enough product to supply the market for several weeks before you can starts to get your money back to reinvest. I see people mention hedging and BTC fluctuations. That's all fine and dandy but it doesn't help you pay your suppliers and restock your inventory.
I can tell you the limiting constraint I have selling on Silk Road is actually maintaining enough supply + enough reserve capital in case the worse should happen. At one point I had as much as $15K in escrow on SR and only maybe $5K in actual cash + product in stock. I needed to keep on increasing prices to keep my exposure to SR below 100%. Imagine how I felt whenever the site would time out and I was wondering when it would be up again? If SR went under I would be practically wiped out.
I was extremely lucky to have a large chunk of BTC I bought in the early days before the last big rally that allowed me to invest many $1000s into starting my SR business. Otherwise I'm just some guy with an average job who has a hard time putting a side $50 out of a paycheck. I can only imagine how difficult it would be for the new seller to start up with only a few $100s. If you figure a turnaround time of a month +/- it could take years to build up a significant capital unless your profit margin was astronomical.
If there were a way for me to get actual cash the moment a transaction were placed I could easily sell 3 times as much and lower my prices by 30% across the board. Unfortunately that's not possible even after funds are released from escrow it may take several weeks to see actual cash.
Obviously you have to be careful who you trust but a lot of sellers out there are extremely trustworthy so please be reasonable towards them and recognize the significant and multiple risks they face and efforts they have to go through to provide you your product!
Cheers,
Mr Ouid
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It's not the good sellers causing problems here. It's that something that started out as a good gesture, a way of showing trust and gratitude to honest sellers has turned into something else, and it is undermining what is good about SR. There are various protections that differentiate SR from all the other sites. The main ones protecting us all is Tor. The main one protecting sellers anonymity is bitcoins. The main one protecting buyers from ripoffs is escrow. I think we need keep all 3 in place. But I don't expect sellers to just take it on themselves to restore this vital piece of the puzzle.
I'm not sure how we'll get it back, but I know when I started here, we all expected escrow, wasn't any argument about it, and ripoffs were very rare. Worst that would happen to buyers was seller wouldn't deliver. Worst for sellers was buyers who claimed non-delivery. By requiring the bypassing of escrow--or finalizing early--we hurt the buyers. I understand the reasoning behind doing it, but it wasn't part of SR in early days, and I've come to see it's folly. As I've said before, I was first person I saw doing it, but I'm sure there were others: our intentions were good, most just wanted to reward the sellers we had come to trust.
It's not good sellers fault it went bad, or it's been abused of, but I think it needs somehow to end.
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Dear trusted seller, when i go out of escrow/finalise early.it shows you that im a serious about you ,that i trust you, and that im not out to just fuck you..so i respect that same kinda love in return...by you giving me drugs....and if you break my heart,you have just lost a customer that you know does not fuck around behind your back...well thats okay, enjoy fucking around with your other customers who are not as dedicated as iam to you.....
wheres a fucking tissue when i need one
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It's not the good sellers causing problems here. It's that something that started out as a good gesture, a way of showing trust and gratitude to honest sellers has turned into something else, and it is undermining what is good about SR. There are various protections that differentiate SR from all the other sites. The main ones protecting us all is Tor. The main one protecting sellers anonymity is bitcoins. The main one protecting buyers from ripoffs is escrow. I think we need keep all 3 in place. But I don't expect sellers to just take it on themselves to restore this vital piece of the puzzle.
I'm not sure how we'll get it back, but I know when I started here, we all expected escrow, wasn't any argument about it, and ripoffs were very rare. Worst that would happen to buyers was seller wouldn't deliver. Worst for sellers was buyers who claimed non-delivery. By requiring the bypassing of escrow--or finalizing early--we hurt the buyers. I understand the reasoning behind doing it, but it wasn't part of SR in early days, and I've come to see it's folly. As I've said before, I was first person I saw doing it, but I'm sure there were others: our intentions were good, most just wanted to reward the sellers we had come to trust.
It's not good sellers fault it went bad, or it's been abused of, but I think it needs somehow to end.
+1 on that. I submit escrow should be MANDATORY for every vendor account with a minimum day delay to execute just as the cancel button has. If a vendor cannot operate within the postal delays and the known seizure risks as the buyer has to, then both vendor and buyer should revert back to the street and those known risks. Street dealers and buyers get ripped off everyday with dealer and buyer no shows, man all I got is half the product you requested, man let me pay you the rest tomorrow, man you can trust me, he told me he'd be here, ie., you get my point. I've read various post's from members and vendors both about the same typical bullshit that occurs on the street. This SR experiment is not immune from the same bad actors on both sides of the fence, so you have to put your trust in the transaction until it either arrives or goes sour. Trusted buyers and vendors both have gone sour in the end on SR and all you can do is move on just like on the street. IMHO.
Bikerbum
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+1 on that. I submit escrow should be MANDATORY for every vendor account with a minimum day delay to execute just as the cancel button has. If a vendor cannot operate within the postal delays and the known seizure risks as the buyer has to, then both vendor and buyer should revert back to the street and those known risks. Street dealers and buyers get ripped off everyday with dealer and buyer no shows, man all I got is half the product you requested, man let me pay you the rest tomorrow, man you can trust me, he told me he'd be here, ie., you get my point. I've read various post's from members and vendors both about the same typical bullshit that occurs on the street. This SR experiment is not immune from the same bad actors on both sides of the fence, so you have to put your trust in the transaction until it either arrives or goes sour. Trusted buyers and vendors both have gone sour in the end on SR and all you can do is move on just like on the street. IMHO.
Bikerbum
Exactly, and what kept the 'iffy' sellers on the street honest, was also fact that you were eyeball to eyeball with the motherfuckers, and they were less inclined to burn...but as you've pointed out so well: once we buyers started lifting escrow on the *good* sellers, same way we'd trust a good seller with our money on the street....the *bad* and *sometimes bad* sellers wanted it too, and requested it, and sometimes demanded it...and, particularly new buyers, just went along with it....
And now, all you have to do is go down thru the 'H' forum, and you can see the crappy sellers, and the same old bullshit going on...with escrow, slow/bad sellers are just a pain, yeah, it takes some time, but u don't loose money on their bs.
Worse, now we've got the sellers who are just *mostly* bad, but sometimes deliver good product, and people wait for weeks, and are scared to say anything, because they figure then they might piss of the vendor, and not get anything at all...and these vendors who don't deliver, naturally, keep product up, hoping for more fish....
After a while, I suppose, the bad ones will just drift away...but it's not their money, it's just fucking theft, dressed up with nice excuses....
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Being a newcomer and seeing this statement on a seller's site:
Please release BTC after shipment is confirmed. Bitcoin fluctuations are a pain in the ass for me.
is the reason why we are doing it.
as for tcobambient I THINK THAT IS A FKN KICK ASSED IDEA!!! We should be rewarded for releasing bitcoins early. The seller gets rewarded by getting their btc released early. Its a win-win situation for both parties.
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Is it just me or does finalizing early when buying heroin seem to be, in itself, a bad idea? Not to bash on opiate addicts (considering I am one) but plenty of them lie, cheat and steal in order to feed their addiction (but not me, I'm perfect in every way)
Even though you can trust a H dealer one day doesn't mean the next day they will just say fuck it and run off with the $2,000 which everyone paid them by finalizing early. That shit would be enticing to anyone, ESPECIALLY a junkie!! After hearing someone vouch for gear2go, and seeing his high rep of nearly 100% with 60+ customers (nearly all of whom finalized early I later realized) and trusted him out of escrow for a gram. I've yet to see any of the money back, but according to his messages he is sending it eventually. We'll see...
This rampant movement towards finalizing early is a certain way not only to attract scammers, but turn otherwise honest people into thieves.
Two oversimplified and negative results of Finalizing early are:
1) Sellers accruing huge amounts of money in their accounts (easily up to $2000 or more in some cases, especially those selling H), and
2) That seller knows that nobody could ever catch them if you decided to keep all that fucking money
Now, try and tell me that these two results don't provide a majorly fucked up incentives for loaded sellers and scammers to screw people over? ESPECIALLY if that person is trying to maintain a dope habit! This is not to say all sellers WILL scam people, just pointing out that (in the spirit of economic theory;) ) the incentives are, well... fucked, for lack of a better word.
By finalizing early, we are creating incentives for otherwise honest sellers to become scammers, and for scammers to get new accounts accounts, easily build up some fake reputation, and run off with hundreds if not thousands of dollars repeatedly. If you can't trust someone with 60+ transactions, all of which are 5/5, and who is being vouched for by multiple reputable members, who the hell can you trust on this website?
The catch 22 here is that by not finalizing early, sellers must wait a long time in order to liquidize their BTC, and buyers can screw over sellers by saying that their package never arrived, leading me to a question for you sellers: how often does that actually happen? I would really like to know, from those with over 100 transactions, how often do buyers claim they didn't get the package when you are fairly sure that they did? Being a buyer who has never tried to pull that petty bullshit, I have absolutely no idea.
I realize the seller has power to make the rules simply by saying "finalize early or I won't ship," an argument I can understand when used against new buyers or potentially risky buyers. But, for buyers like myself, with over 45 transactions, a refund rate of 0% and an auto-finalize rate of 0% and a member for 5 months, isn't it safe to assume that I will not screw you over? I would venture to guess that the majority of purchases are made by members such as myself with good buyers stats, and can be trusted not to screw over a seller. As much as I'd like to help all you sellers get your funds immediately, I think it is also important to consider the consequences of finalizing early.
My point is this: Is this huge move towards finalizing early a greater benefit (benefits sellers through quicker liquidation of funds and less risk of buyer claiming they didn't receive package, am I missing anything?) than the cost incurred? (more scammers, honest sellers turning to stealing, less overall community trust, large combined losses suffered by the buyers)
The rules I am going to follow are:
1) Only finalize early for sellers with whom I have done 4+ transactions
2) If required to finalize early, order the smallest possible amount as a test run
3) Give a 4/5 whenever I finalize early (to let people know) and change it to 5/5 once I receive the package
I think we should all try to move away from this huge trend of finalizing early. While it certainly has its place, that place is not in every single transaction! Especially if you see a seller with like 40 or 50 5/5 ratings "finalized early, will report back" you know that bastard has (depending on what he is selling) at LEAST a thousand dollars sitting there, probably more like 2,000 or 3,000 if they are selling heroin! And that money is sitting there, tempting them to do the wrong thing.
I am a little fucked up at the moment, so there are probably plenty of redundancies and scatter-brained bullshit in my message which I am sorry about. Regardless, does anyone see a good solution to this problem? I would have to say using hedged escrow more often would be a plus.
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Well said, FF, and I agree...I know me, and others who started a while ago, finalizing early, meant well, and it seemed the right thing to do...but, well, fuck just about everything you posted is what I think...and I only know it's true because I've been there....the times I could tell you about, the heartache and serious financial havoc I wreaked on somebody who trusted me...nothing at all to be proud of, and I was trusted, and I 'meant well' but yep, exactly what you said...
...and it's happening here, where people are starting to do business with money that they are counting on to get, and it's changing the relationship between some sellers and some buyers, as once they've finalized early, buyers often feel they *have* to tread lightly online, as seller still hasn't shipped, has too much power over the transaction...and that hurts newcomers, as they don't realize all the 'praise' might not be honest...
I feel that as they once did, sellers will get used to not getting early finalization again, get used to only operating with the funds they actually have on hand, rather than getting all caught up in money that isn't rightfully theira yet...and add that what I know all too well, what happens when one's *own* habit is in the mix....well, I don't care what anybody says, a junky will get right first, and worry about ethics second...every fucking time....good post, thankyou...
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I don't think buyers should be allowed to make finalizing mandatory early, period. Buyers paying for product inside of SR by selecting a listing and checking out are paying the SR fee for escrow protection, and they should be entitled to it. Demanding early release by anyone is just dirty because now you have the buyer's BTC tied up for days and they are essentially hostage. Buyers should be refusing, cancelling as soon as they can, and then posting up in the forums about what a fucking asshole that seller is.
That being said, if both parties walk into the transaction wishing to forego the escrow protection, this isn't a problem. Both people know exactly what they are getting into from the start. I think there needs to be more material available right in a newbs face that says "this is a really bad fucking idea, especially if this is a seller who is new or only has "early release" feedback".
I offer out of escrow sales, and usually ends up saving the customer anywhere between $20 - $45 dollars. But the deal is OOE all the way, no buyer hostage, buyers are sending me BTC right over SR and they are buying a listing so they can still leave feedback and let the community know if I was an asshole or if I came through (obvious answer here lol). And I didn't even CONSIDER offering this option until after I had 100 sales on here, all within SR escrow. I think just being able to do this is something you need to earn, and it's not like you can throw down a tangible number on it or anything, but it's up to the community to call out assholes FAST (we can start a sticky called "The Asshole Seller Thread" just for this).
I hate seeing people get burned. It makes me livid. Scammers and assholes drive customers back to the street, away from the comfort and incredible high of my open arms. They cut right into my customer base and bottom line and I have no problem going on the offensive against them, regardless of whether they even compete with me or not. I want customers happy, safe, and high as fuck when they want to be. SR can offer that, but we need a community sledge hammer to come down on the weak-assed skulls of the pricks ruining it for customers, sullying the site's reputation, and in turn sullying mine by extension. Fuck them.
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Personally as a seller I prefer customers to not finalize early, while I appreciate customers goodwill who do it as a "thanks I know you're legit" kinda way I prefer if people don't because it means that I can track how long my orders tend to take for each country and use this to advise other people who are looking to order or waiting for an order, it also means should something go wrong and an order doesn't arrive then I don't have to find some BTC to refund with as it's already there. That and lastly I've paid for escrow so you might as well use it ;)
Personally I think it helps to keep the market cleaner, while some people may start selling from nothing I think it's better if there is a hurdle to enter over, this means you know your seller is going to be legitimate if they've planned money to cover the first few week of orders. The only time I'd ask for someone to finalize early is if they're a first time buyer or newish buyer and asking to order a large amount of something.
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Like today: this new H seller, came on a little while ago, told everybody what he was going to be selling, sent it when he said he would, and it got here today...I had already started booting up my Tails flash, so I could finalize, as I also believe it's incumbent upon buyers to not delay in finalizing...the stuff was excellent, and it felt really good to say so...give the shipper the expected and well-deserved 5/5, and let the buyers know why...
That's the way it's *supposed* to be, on here. Aphex did his job well, and I finished up the way I'm supposed to :)
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The real question is not to escrow or not to escrow.
The real question is: can we trust you?
It is all a matter of trust: If I know you, I trust you.
If I see your previous behavior, I can foresee probable future behavior.
If someone I trust is trusting you, then I can trust you by extension.
This is basically how trust works in the human world.
My policy is simple: if you have more than 10 successful sales with less than 5% returns, then escrow it! I'm gonna trust your past.
If you have less than 10 successful transactions and higher than 5% returns, then I won't take the chance of risking my time and money in a fraudulent transaction... unless someone from the community vouches for you.
My products are unique for each customer, I can't resell my items to any other person (I sell professionally-made exceptional quality NY Driver Licenses) once they are created you we can't allow to leave any space to "cold-feeting" or "buyer's remorse". Any transaction must be final if the order is placed.
Our operational costs are expensive, not only because of the cost of the materials and the work/hour of the personnel, we also incur in extensive security protocols and routines we have set up to avoid tracking down by LEA. For our protection and the customer's safety as well.
So my main risk policy regarding to escrow is the following:
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1) If you have more than 10 transactions and/or less than 5% returns.
1.1) You can keep the money at the escrow and release it upon receipt of the product.
2) If you have less than 10 transactions and/or more than 5% returns.
2.1) Must Finalize Early, otherwise the order will be cancelled in 4 days.
2.2) Exceptions: If you know a trusted veteran in the community who can vouch for you, let them send me a GPG signed email to me (public key in my profile) vouching for you, then I will accept his word.
Then the sponsor will have to place an order here:
http://ianxz6zefk72ulzz.onion/index.php/silkroad/item/12844
If the customer releases the escrow upon the receipt of the product, I will cancel the "Trust Vouch" of the sponsor. (Simple logic: If your sponsor doesn't trust you with his money, I have no reason to trust you either)
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I think it is a very reasonable policy.
-Peach
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@Peach
I understand your policy, and I like being able to have an older member vouch for a new one...but I have to say again, that this is similar to 'web-of-trust' sites, and I could mention a few...but it's not what SilkRoad is about...we are based on the novel idea--for web anyway--of bitcoins and escrow, and that's what attracts newbies.
If every seller came here, with a their own policy, then we're just like all those other websites. This site is Tor, Escrow, and btc. A person who takes the trouble to come here, figures out tor, and btc, shouldn't need to go thru any more hoops...
Nice thing about SR, also, is that sellers and buyers are both seen kind of the same way, neither is any higher ranked than the other. Everybody knows there are bad sellers, everybody knows there are bad buyers....if the site had wanted to start a sort of level of trust setup, like OVDB has, for example, then I'm sure that's how SR would have designed it. Trust does play a huge part in everything here, but escrow gives buyers somewhere to stand if they either don't receive product, or feel it is not what it was described...and then it get arbitrated, giving both a chance to present their case....
And problem isn't usually sellers like you, anyway...it's the fake seller, who sets up what *looks* like a reputable 'shop' and then bails with the money....no escrow no recourse to justice
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So I have been searching but I cant find it. What is finalizing early even mean. I see it everywhere but with no explanation?
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Pandoh, it means that you're finalizing an order before you've actually received it. The purpose is to release funds out of escrow early to a seller. I think a lot of people do it for reputable sellers that ask for it, but IMO, there's not much reason for it. You're only leaving yourself open to scammers.
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I usually dont even have to ask for the buyer to release funds early, 50% of the time they just do it.
Also Ill only ask if its a large purchase with a buyer who has no history
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SilkRoad is about...we are based on the novel idea--for web anyway--of bitcoins and escrow, and that's what attracts newbies.
If every seller came here, with a their own policy, then we're just like all those other websites.
Part of that deserves repeating:
"If every seller came here, with a their own policy, then we're just like all those other websites."
Demanding out of escrow or pre-finalization before shipping as a matter of individual vendor policy is bullshit, in my opinion.
Unless, of course, if you have customers with say 20/0 or better transaction histories, you then agree to send them your product, and after they have received it, they'll pay you.
There's a whole wide world out there you can go to and get paid up front. This here is an escrow site. Feel free to start your own site with your own policy, but until then, how about we follow both the letter and the spirit of the policies here.
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Awesome thanks for reply. I kinda asked the same question somewhere else but this answers it. Basically the places where I have wanted to order they are not in the USA. They say we need to finalize early outside or the UK. I mean if they have good reviews about them it seams like it shouldn't be a bit deal right? Because it seems to me that if they rip someone off everyone will find out about it and stop buying from them.
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Even if a seller has hundred's of positive reviews, I still wouldn't go out of escrow. You never know when a seller, no matter how good they are, is going to up and leave or decide to selectively scam. I see some sellers offer a discount or a little extra if you finalize early. Call me paranoid or whatever, but I trust nobody and escrow gives me enough sense of security to want to use it every time out.
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Even if a seller has hundred's of positive reviews, I still wouldn't go out of escrow. You never know when a seller, no matter how good they are, is going to up and leave or decide to selectively scam. I see some sellers offer a discount or a little extra if you finalize early. Call me paranoid or whatever, but I trust nobody and escrow gives me enough sense of security to want to use it every time out.
True true but I am just making a small order of about 10btc and this person has 100% feedback positive so I am taking the chance and if it does happen to fail well then im not out that much money and I will know not to do it again.
Thanks for headsup!
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The real problem is, it hurts good sellers too. This started with just a few buyers finalizing early, a way to, I don't know, make life easier for trusted sellers, who were stating how much bitcoin fluctuations were hurting them. I know when I first did it, I hadn't seen anybody else do it: just seemed like a good thing to do...and I still do it, but for a lot less than I used to: why? I got ripped off by IP, plain and simple. He started out with pretty good product, then was 'late' , but still delivered good product, then he got selective with product, but posted a lot, and seemed like a good guy. I'd trashed him the first time I bailed on his late ass, and felt bad about it, so I apologized to him, and finalized right away, and of course, never saw a thing.
Kind of funny, now I think of it. But anyway, as stated, SR is escrow and bitcoins. Sellers have been around a while now, so they feel more comfortable not playing by the rules. That's why I say that SR himself--site owner--will have to step in, if this is to be remedied. My proposed solution is to leave it open to allow buyers to finalize early for buyers we want to, but not to allow it to be requested or demanded, as is beginning to be the case. Longterm, it fucks us all...buyers have absolutely no remedy without escrow, and scammers flocking to site, will make it harder on legit vendors...and our reputation also has been declining because of this. If it were my site, I'd want to make it right.
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i give buyers the option if they are new - they can either finalize early or find another vendor if they don't like it. why is the burden of trust always on the seller? Buyers should have to establish themselves just the same as sellers do. Maybe the answer is for SR to charge a small amount for new buyer accounts or to come up with some kind of insurance fee that is automatically charged to new buyers. Bottom line: prove to me that you're an established, honest buyer, and i'll have no issues using the escrow system as it was intended.
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Now that ive made a couple of sucfesful purchases my answer is to EVER finalize early. if the seller insists, as folks have said earleir, find another vendor. that straightfrward, folks need to stick to the rules.
If a buyer has no purchase history then i would suggest seller only offers small quantities to begin with, but never, ever finalize early, as whether you build up a long term relationship, all well and good, byt te minute you place a large order and they say , u have to finalize early, they could decide to take the cash and run.
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Man! I cant believe the Issue of Escrow & Finalizing is being so hotly debated. Before I came on to SR, I lurked around several other sites, such as Opiphile.org and British run drugs.net. Only reason I decided on doing business with SR is because I kept seeing very good feedback about how SR was established as a "Buyers" Market for individuals who sought out all nice Goodies available. You PAID once you Received a legit, quality product. That is the Foundation of SR, besides the Bc's that are difficult to Trace and the Anonymity. 3 very solid Foundations. Bending Rules for Special Cases is Ok in my Opinion, but when you start reaching new limits on the bending, you'll never be satisfied cause there is a tendency to see how far you can go. Even WallStreet Sharks know difference between bending and breaking. Thus far as a Newbie I havnt had any Issues and the Vendors I've Purchased from already rank at the Top and didnt even mention finalizing early. That has to tell you something. Vendors at the Top 5% did Not make it there by Bending Rules.
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finalize early at your own risk, ive done it several times, most recently getting burned. $200 plus on a supposedly reputable vendor. its not worth it. find someone who does not require that or start with small amounts. my 2 cents. the escrow system is there for a reason.
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most of the opponents of finalizing early are buyers. try becoming a seller for a while, and then come back here and tell me you are still against it. i will use escrow, but only for established buyers. newly registered users/buyers can scam just as easily with the escrow system. at best they'll let escrow auto-finalize, and you're stuck waiting 18 days for the funds to be released. don't be ignorant.
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i give buyers the option if they are new - they can either finalize early or find another vendor if they don't like it. why is the burden of trust always on the seller? Buyers should have to establish themselves just the same as sellers do. Maybe the answer is for SR to charge a small amount for new buyer accounts or to come up with some kind of insurance fee that is automatically charged to new buyers. Bottom line: prove to me that you're an established, honest buyer, and i'll have no issues using the escrow system as it was intended.
And how many successful buys are enough to establish a new buyer? I've had 3 transactions, the first two asked me to finalize early as a new buyer, the third said if I would he'd throw in some extra product. They are all small orders so the risk is not that great to me. But what I want to know is when do I have enough credibility to expect that sellers NOT ask me to finalize early?
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i give buyers the option if they are new - they can either finalize early or find another vendor if they don't like it. why is the burden of trust always on the seller? Buyers should have to establish themselves just the same as sellers do. Maybe the answer is for SR to charge a small amount for new buyer accounts or to come up with some kind of insurance fee that is automatically charged to new buyers. Bottom line: prove to me that you're an established, honest buyer, and i'll have no issues using the escrow system as it was intended.
You're right, it's got to protect sellers too. I remember the threads, and how fucked it was for sellers, because of just what you talk about. I think a lot of this is just a bunch of us who've gotten ripped, letting off steam. Maybe something along the lines of what you say, 'special' new buyer's accounts is going to be a solution...mostly to find a way to keep scammers from just coming on here, and ripping off new people. I've felt for a while, something like your second suggestion might be a solution, where new buyers pay a fee to get on here--and with SR's notoriety, I think there'd be plenty that would do that...and then this money would go in a 'pool' to arbitrate problems, if goods don't show up.
And maybe it'll just sort out, as the 'survival of the fittest' say. So many of us have lost money, but I don't want honest vendors to pay for this either...I do want to make it harder for outright ripoffs to thrive, tho...seems like once a buyer has gotten to forums, and hung out a while, that it should be caveat emptor....we can read the reports, and there are plenty of good vendors here, so we probably just need to be more specific in our focus: how to protect brand new buyers, and get them over here where they can learn to research before purchasing....
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That genuinely sucks. It does show up in their stats I trust?
Maybe a system where a premium is charged for bad buyer stats unless they finalize early?
That would provide an incentive to learn a little about the world of the seller and, for one's own good, give a shit about finalizing as soon as they are cool with the transaction.
It also gives newbies a chance to get some good stats while still in the safety of escrow, albeit at a cost. That cost would, again, provide incentive to learn a little about the seller's world.
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I'm a newbie out of seven (7) transactions I finalized early four (4) times one (1) time finalzed the day I received the product and two (2) times thank goodness I did not finalize early because I never received the product and received 100% refund.
I tried to make a purchase today and the seller told me I would have to finalize early. I responded that I was reluctant but will do so because they are a trusted seller.
Strangely the response to me was they cancelled the transcation and wanted the btc sent out of escrow.
I contacted SR as per the buyers guide when that happens.
The seller contacted me with this message: SCAMMING PRICK
Ok I'm a new but seriously how was I acting like a scamming prick?
I agreed to finalize early so what did I do wrong?
Was I being bullied into sending my funds out of escrow?
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Finalizing early shouldn't be requested unless buyer has less than a handful of past transactions, or an excessive refund rate (this indicates possible selective scammer getting double shipment or refunded on an order they did receive, but claimed they didn't.) This seems like common sense after being here a while, but being a newb ain't easy, and usually doesn't understand reasons for such until they've been here a bit. Hindsight is always 20/20, and I think people aren't very cautious here unless they've been scammed or followed a scam story closely here in the forums.
Then of course, BTC taking a 30+% tumble causes near-panic for sellers that didn't hedge, so obviously and early finalize is damn near a necessity to prevent actual loss on the sale. I've seen plenty of vendors pack up & hault their operations because of the BTC's instability. Hell, when I 1st got here, a BTC was over $12!
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i think it would help quite a bit against scammers to separate the finalizing and review function. since it obviously doesn't work the way it was originally intended anyways. the way it is now, buyers will have to leave a 5/5 review in order to finalize. so the seller can do selective scamming on newbies and still get a 5/5 rating. and when the buyer realizes he has been scammed he has no way of warning other buyers except in the forum. you see what i mean? i cant see any reason to why you would have to finalize and leave review at the same time, at least as it works today. it just makes newbies more vulnerable and the only ones who benefit from it are fraudulent vendors who can keep their (100)-rating even after scamming.
what do you think?
P.S sorry if it's a bit unclear what i mean, i'm a little high right now.
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woops, how emberassing. just realized that u can edit the review later as well. that renderd my revious response kinda useless. sorry guys.
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Finalizing early shouldn't grant the seller an automatic 5/5. It is an additional risk for the buyer and goes against SR policy, so IMO that doesn't deserve more than a 4/5, no matter packaging/product/service quality.
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woops, how emberassing. just realized that u can edit the review later as well. that renderd my revious response kinda useless. sorry guys.
Don't feel like the lone ranger: I don't think most buyers are aware of how easy it is to go back and change feedback, and I wish those who got ripped would do what I"ve done, if they finalized early, and change the feedback. Probably should start a thread, just on this, but this is such a good thread, I don't want to distract from it.
I do sympathize with the vendors, and have always tired to emphasize to buyers how important it is to finalize when they get product. My only real wish here is to have *new* vendors stay in escrow, until they've developed a reputation for honesty and reliability...it doesn't seem like it would be that hard, and I actually think honest vendors don't mind, as it gives buyers a better impression of them. This is just an obvious case of the few bad apples fucking it up for the rest of us, both dishonest vendors *and* buyers.
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Finalizing early shouldn't grant the seller an automatic 5/5. It is an additional risk for the buyer and goes against SR policy, so IMO that doesn't deserve more than a 4/5, no matter packaging/product/service quality.
What is you state is simply bias. Whether you FE or not, it is the end result of price, speed of shipping and quality of product should be the determining rating.
I don't think quality of product should determine what rating you give a seller. What if the vendor is selling some low quality brick weed? Would you give him a low rating just because it's bad quality, even though he advertised it as bad quality? No, you shouldn't. I see your point, but what I'm saying, is that you should determine the rating, not based on quality of product, but on accuracy of the seller's description of the product.
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I would have no problem finalizing early if all shipment were tracked. From the orders I made so far tracking was never an option. If fedex is used the seller does not have to give a real name or address so the risk is only on the buyer. After the awful experience I've had, I would pay an eyetooth for tracking and I would hit that finalize button with confidence.
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I would have no problem finalizing early if all shipment were tracked. From the orders I made so far tracking was never an option. If fedex is used the seller does not have to give a real name or address so the risk is only on the buyer. After the awful experience I've had, I would pay an eyetooth for tracking and I would hit that finalize button with confidence.
I believe FedEx and UPS do a lot more scanning and opening of packages. They don't need a warrant, whereas USPS does. USPS does provide Delivery Confirmation (automatically with Express shipping, I believe optional with Priority?) and if you get a valid DCN from the shipper you can tell if there exists a package that was delivered on a certain day with a certain destination zipcode and whether the final delivery was made. This is the best proof sellers can use in disputes with buyers claiming they didn't receive anything, as well as for buyers claiming their package never arrived (you can tell, for example, if it was shipped and then "disappeared" at customs). So insist on Delivery Confirmation if you want tracking. It's better for both sellers and buyers (except in price).
Edit: I will repeat here what every seller providing DCN numbers says: don't track DCNs over Tor, as LE is watching...
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To bounce back on the subject, I think that this trend of requesting early finalization should stop, especially when it targets new buyers. Escrow was meant to protect people that cannot rely on their reputation to speak for them, that is, new buyers and new sellers. So as much as I appreciate it when a buyer finalizes early because they trust me on my rating and feedback, I'd consider perfectly inappropriate to ask them to FE when they don't feel comfortable doing so. Escrow works because neither the seller nor the buyer have to be trusted, only the 3rd party keeping the money in escrow.
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many sellers do not see the bigger picture and think, "if i want to request early finalization from new buyers, why shouldn't i be able to?". one overriding answer is, as we've established, because you're creating mimic-able behavior which legitimizes and encourages scamming techniques, but:
1. how do you convince selfish and/or ignorant sellers that the practice is bad or incentivize/force them to stop?
2. how do you convince buyers that they shouldn't put up with that and that it has both direct and indirect consequences when they do so or incentivize/force them to leave orders in escrow until receipt?
and BTW (to reattach my shipping tangent to the subject), willbk023, you are suggesting you might finalize early after receiving a tracking number for an order. that has some legitimacy. it is at least some proof that the seller held up part of the bargain (they shipped something). however, it forfeits the opportunity to get any part of a refund through arbitration if something goes wrong in transit or, say, the package is empty or the contents not as-ordered (unless the seller admits fault and refunds you because they are good people). in other words, escrow protects you from more than just a seller not shipping something.
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Any seller who ships his client an empty parcel should be reported & instantly banned.The only problem is, it's 1 guys wordagainst anothers. DCN proves shipment like U guys said, but if there really was product that was supposed to be there, & the seller lies, how would admins/owners here know which side to believe?
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Has that happened before? Seems to me besides from a few bad eggs most of the venders are trustworthy people who want to build a solid reputation of good service.
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When you leave escrow you loose your protection.
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I FE for a couple known sellers in order to help them out.
I ordered from a new vendor who asked me to FE. I said no. It was jabberwocky, not only a scammer but a very obvious one. I got all my money back through the res center.
Escrow: believe in it.
But here's a wrinkle we should not overlook: don't finalize immediately when the package shows up. Try out the product. When I was new, I got some stuff from peepscallmedrugbuyer. I finalized at once even though I couldn't try it out for 3 days. It was bogus but my money was gone.
Much later I got something from a longtime but very obnoxious vendor and selective scammer, TimeTraveler now Mile High Medicine. It too was bogus. I called bullshit and got 50% res. There was a later additional sum sent to me by another person that brought the refund almost to the full amount.
Turn your back on escrow and you have no one to blame but yourself. If I place an order then the vendor marks it in transit and demands early final, I will call bullshit and go to res. I haven't asked but it seems that a buyer would have to get 100% back because SR rules institutionalize escrow. I bet that's a frequent scam pulled on noobs, marking an order in transit then demanding early final.