Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: Kind Bud on August 04, 2011, 03:15 pm
-
Canceling Orders
I hate vendors that cancel orders. They should know better. They are wasting the buyer's time and bitcoin.
I know some vendors canceled orders because of yesterdays bitcoin sell off. This is NOT ok. They buyer purchased the item for the price the vendor listed, the vendor should honor their deal.
Vendors do lose money when this happens, and that sucks. But vendors need to keep their word.
-
I agree Kind, this happened to me yesterday too... those vendors know who you are, and should man up and follow through.. i always send out my product regardless of bitcoin pricing..
-
I do agree on all that so dont take me wrong. I have never cancel order and I would have good reason to do that.
But I have something with phrase "wasting time". That is pointless phrase. What time is really wasted? Time goes anyway and nobody can be accused of wasting somebody else time.
This is drug deal. Its sensitive issue. That venture can not be compared with legal activity. Even there any service can be canceled without stating reason to do so.
Just my 2c.
-
The ironic thing that I, too, never cancel orders. I have a macbook pro without a mouse, only the touch pad. if I hover over a clickable item for a tad too long, it will click it for some reason. I accidentally did this yesterday, it was just before the sell off.
I hope that the buyer didn't think i canceled it on purpose, i would never do that (purposely). I have said it publicly that I never would. Now, Im sure that is what he/she thinks that I did. shit, now I feel really bad..
-
As a buyer I can understand a seller wanting to cancel if they aren't going to make anything off the deal. I rather the seller cancel then not send anything.
Where can I find out the how and why's of this "selloff". Looks to me Bitcoins are none too stable.
-
If you go to Mt. Gox they have an application calld mt gox live, i think, It gives all the transactions in real time. It was kind of cool seeing my transaction take place. its very detailed, it gives you a second by second update.
The weird thing is that the btc has been quite stable the last week or so. Thats why I think the guy over at that bitcoin scam is selling off hit ill gotten goods...This will make the market very unstable until all of his btc's are gone. It looks like hes got 1.4 million worth and that will for sure make the market to huge swings.
-
Honestly, I have sympathy for both sides.
I don't like ordering something only to have it canceled without warning. But I can understand the sellers side as well. If the price drops several dollars a BTC, and you have ordered a significant amount of product, the seller could stand to lose a large amount of money.
Now, if the seller were to communicate to me his situation, explaining the possibility of him/her losing a large amount of coin on the transaction when it closes, I am more than willing to work something out.
But I don't think the seller should just cancel the order without some sort of warning, it's not polite. At the minimum, send a PM explaining why you are canceling so the buyer isn't left sitting there wondering what happened.
A little communication goes a long way.
-
I do agree on all that so dont take me wrong. I have never cancel order and I would have good reason to do that.
But I have something with phrase "wasting time". That is pointless phrase. What time is really wasted? Time goes anyway and nobody can be accused of wasting somebody else time.
This is drug deal. Its sensitive issue. That venture can not be compared with legal activity. Even there any service can be canceled without stating reason to do so.
Just my 2c.
The wasting time part is the 2-4 days waiting for product to ship so you have it by the weekend only to have it canceled without enough time to have another vendor get product to you within the same time frame...
-
I agree. Canceling just bc BTC value has been lost is wrong. If you have time to cancel the order, then you should have time to just pull the listing down entirely.
It's wrong plain and simple.
I certainly understand seller's pulling down listing's in times of extreme volatility and fluctuation but it is the seller's responsibility to stay on top of their own business. If you have a listing up, you should be ready and prepared to ship that item.
-
i thought the point of hedging was so this wouldnt be a problem anymore, or am i misunderstanding this feature.
-
you are right knives, hedging should resolve most of these issues. The only problem is that you have to hedge all or none. So, when I have a listing where you can release btc early to get a better price or whatever I lose quite a bit if its set to hedge. SR explained why, its the buy/sell difference. Sr did say that they are looking into making the option to have one item hedged and the other not hedged.
But, 99 percent of the transactions should be hedged and it really doesnt matter what the btc does.
-
Hedging keep continues to adjust until the item is shipped but GreenCo ships the same day most of the time. Transit time in escrow and also a lot of buyers are a little slow to release. I don't know the exact average escrow release for them but it is close to 7 days and many buyers never log back on and never release.
So in GreenCo's case hedging only adjusts for less than 8 hours our of near a week.
Mostly I am curious about buyer expectation. GreenCo honored sales during the SR outages, on black Friday, during the MtGox hack, and during this last down turn. They considered it their duty to honor all sales even if they lost money. If customers don't care, of canceling orders is no big deal then maybe GreenCo should reconsider canceling orders.
I think canceling orders is bad business and dishonest, but maybe I am in the minority.
-
Hedging keep continues to adjust until the item is shipped but GreenCo ships the same day most of the time. Transit time in escrow and also a lot of buyers are a little slow to release. I don't know the exact average escrow release for them but it is close to 7 days and many buyers never log back on and never release.
So in GreenCo's case hedging only adjusts for less than 8 hours our of near a week.
Mostly I am curious about buyer expectation. GreenCo honored sales during the SR outages, on black Friday, during the MtGox hack, and during this last down turn. They considered it their duty to honor all sales even if they lost money. If customers don't care, of canceling orders is no big deal then maybe GreenCo should reconsider canceling orders.
I think canceling orders is bad business and dishonest, but maybe I am in the minority.
I think it's very admirable what Greenco does with honoring orders, especially during big BTC downturns. But it is also a financial impossibility for a small seller. The financial loss would wipe them out, so I don't think "dishonest" would be the correct term to apply. Maybe "undercapitalized". ;) Keeping product flowing at all times is one of the key marks of a real marketplace. Just think of New Orleans fish market; in any of a half dozen recent situations.
I can't wait for the day when all honest BTC dealers/vendors have bulletproof systems and all the hoarded BTC are out in the system and the BTC never varies more than 1-2% in any given week. A stable BTC is a gold mine for both sellers and buyers. :)
-
But it is also a financial impossibility for a small seller. The financial loss would wipe them out, so I don't think "dishonest" would be the correct term to apply. Maybe "undercapitalized". ;)
Point taken. Small sellers are doing the best they can, and I should not get down on them about it.
-
I agree. There should be some control institution/agency with function for bitcoin stablilty. When sudden drop or opposite, that agency would buy/sell to limit fluctations.
-
I got a question..Does Mt.gox and Trade Hill communicate with each other? I mean, does the btc move the same on mt.gox as on trade hill?
-
I think no, they are separate market places. You can go and check this;
http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/
-
Usually Tradehill value will closely follow Mtgox... There can be no institution to control bitcoin because the very nature of bitcoin is decentralization... Otherwise the FED would control it the same as everything else. Although I think certain people are controlling the market. If you watch the real time buys and sells in the last 24 hours every time the value hits 11$ someone sells 1000 BTC. I have seen this multiple times in the past as well at different values. People are selling off massive amounts of coins as soon as a certain value is reached. Hopefully eventually the early adopters will run out (and perhaps the bitcoin scammers who have stolen huge amounts) and it will become a regular market. Until then I fear the BTC millionaires will control the market...
-
Yes I know that but I think something with no authority. Just a trust fond with enough money/btc for imidiate action when necesary. They can also make a profit like any other.
-
Ya... I was soooo looking forward to opening my mail today and finding a nice package. But instead I opened my messages to being told my order will not ship... Suuch a bummer.
-
I think the seller should honor the sale to a certain point. if lets say the product is 61 and it shows up like 20 or 30. then cancel it. to much of a loss. also the buyer should be aware what the seller is going thru to sell. fees, packing, time involved to send said package, being cautious, etc. i mean they are doin us the service to have their product and shipping it to us. and WE ALL KNOW that GreenCo is the best of the best. i hate to say it but if someone is buying the stuff at a lower price because of blackouts, drop in price of bitcoin, etc just cancel it. GreenCo has proved themselves a honorable and great seller. but a line has to be drawn. also the point that small sellers will lose even more, which isn't fair to them. so i say just cancel it. I know i wouldn't personal hold it against GreenCo. Buyers have to also do their part in this. and understand. silk road is a two way street. buyers dont take advantage of us and us as sellers do not take advantage of the buyers. buyers need us just as much as we need them.
-
I had sold some items when the btc was around 16 then it dropped to 11 or under. I lost my shorts. I honored everything, I had some big orders during that time. Luckily, by the time the btc's were released and I waited a couple of days, i sold them for around 15 (the highest its been since it was 16) So, I feel that I made out really good. Just like now, it bounced back somewhat. it hasnt corrected to the low 13's like it was but at least its not 8..
-
Canceling Orders
I hate vendors that cancel orders. They should know better. They are wasting the buyer's time and bitcoin.
I know some vendors canceled orders because of yesterdays bitcoin sell off. This is NOT ok. They buyer purchased the item for the price the vendor listed, the vendor should honor their deal.
Vendors do lose money when this happens, and that sucks. But vendors need to keep their word.
I ship my orders the same day they are placed. Between the time I shipped and the time the order is confirmed to arrive I just lost 150 USD due to the bitcoin selloff. That's money out of my pocket. Now unless you want to man up and split those losses with me, I'm damn well entitled to cancel those orders if I see fit. Of course I'm going to inform the customer, but I have no obligation beyond that.
-
Here is where i see a problem, lets say a small time vendor comes on to sell off the bottle of norcos they were prescribed this month and they see prices from the bigger vendors @ say 11/12 per pill at the current exchange.. well they say, "hot damn! i will sell at 5-6ea (Current street price) and sell them quick and get my $$!!"
now the next week comes and both vendors have product sold but not shipped, and the BTC drops to 8:1.. well guess what the small vendor will do? cancel his orders.
the vendor with higher prices will just chalk it up to exchange fluctuations and still get street value for them and life goes on.
Lesson: PRICE YOUR PRODUCT AS IF COIN WERE GOING TO FALL IN VALUE ANY DAY!!
This goes both ways too.. lets say the coin hits a low of 7-8:1.. well you buy 10 BTC for 75$ and it bounces back up to 13-14:1 in a week.. now you have twice the buying power as you did! those same 10 BTC would now have the buying power of 135$ USD
Just my .02 BTC lol
-
If we werent supposed to cancel orders, there wouldn't be a button to do it. Like I said, until you want to cover my losses, I'm cancelling orders.
-
Sellers are here to make a profit. If BTC price tanks and the seller doesn't feel like waiting to see if it goes back up they have every right to cancel. Frustrating for the buyer but this isn't a charity :P
-
I absolutely agree. If its before anything is marked as in-transit both sides should be able to cancel. Not really a huge deal, just my opinion.
-
You would still need a dispute mechanism. What if the buyer cancels while the seller is on his way back from the post office having sent off the package. If the buyer was simply allowed to cancel it he might be able to time it right so as to get his package and his money back. (Envision a scam where buyers create new accounts, buy something, then cancel the order, hoping to do so after the seller has shipped, but before the seller has has a chance to flip it to in-transit)
How many other scenarios might there be for when a buyer cancels his order. Do you only allow the buyer to cancel his order within so many hours of having placed it?
Maybe there should be escrow for the buyer (for a small fee maybe, a small percentage) then if the seller cancels because BTC dropped, the buyer would get back BTC based on the dollar value when he placed the order. Could a buyer and a seller working together use that type of system to scam SR?
If the seller doesn't cancel, the the order goes through normally, with the sellers escrow taking care of his/her loss, while SR gets to keep the insurance payment, letting them build a kitty to help when they do have to cover a buyer loss.
What do you do if the buyer cancels because BTC rises and he wants to get his now greater value BTC back out so he can replace the order. Should SR keep the difference between the original dollar value and the new value?
I could see it getting really complicated.
Anybody else with any good ideas on how to better handle buyer/seller cancellations?
I'm sure somebody must have something better.
-
I released my seller's transaction early this time - and ironically about 1.25 days before the complete drop. He/she isn't responding to me, and now I'm wondering if I dicked him/her by doing so - if he/she had it hedged. I thought it was the nice thing to do - to release funds early so they don't have to wait on buyers :(
-
Well they might have still burned themselves if they didn't cash out right away - maybe hoping for higher BTC prices or something. It was a nice thing to do - whether hedged or not it's great to get your float back in play.
I always appreciate it. But I also get the funds out the door on the spot too....