Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: profspudhed on July 29, 2011, 03:37 pm
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maybe im just not seeing it the same way but with hedging now an option and the fact that the price of btc has been reasonably stable for a while (between $13-$14) why are there still so many people asking for out of escrow sales, if you are a very respected seller then maybe its fair enough but now we seem to be getting new sellers cropping up asking for instant payment or worse still some listings ive seen for 0.01 btc and asking for the rest of the payment totally outside SR, im just wondering why?
yes i have bought from sellers elsewhere with no escrow system in place (still waiting on the results of that one) but on here the only reasons i can think of are either the seller is expecting a high chance that it will not arrive and want their cash all the same or they dont intend on sending at all. a friend has ordered from one of the sellers who demands instant finalize on the order and it did come through but it still seems sketchy to me. so if you are an out of escrow seller, sell me on the principle as at present the only people id finalize for straight away are people who have proven their excellent abilities (so far ivory and hashuk, and maybe swish, i dont dabble outside my countrys borders often but he managed to get a shipment from the us to uk in a week which is mighty impressive) the only other reason id try an out of escrow is if the product were either very cheap for what youre getting or rare enough that i couldnt get it any other way
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Some of us don't stock obscenely huge amounts of product, either. That just gets you in more trouble if the shtf. Tying up a lot of money in float for 3 weeks is very bad for that situation. I have only done 3 out of escrow transactions so far and all 3 have been good. I offered a pretty significant discount, plus no shipping addon for US customers just to be able to get my money faster.
I wouldn't recommend buyers do this with a new seller at all. But if you are dealing with someone reputable and they are offering a discount, it's up to the buyer to assess the risk and go from there.
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Escrow works pretty well most of the time. The 6.23% charge that Silk Road takes does have some customers asking for out of escrow sales.
I think Silk should forbid any sale less than 1btc. Free listing are a sign of dishonesty in my opinion. There was a troll post about it a little while ago, but I actually agreed with the troll.
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Some of us don't stock obscenely huge amounts of product, either. That just gets you in more trouble if the shtf. Tying up a lot of money in float for 3 weeks is very bad for that situation. I have only done 3 out of escrow transactions so far and all 3 have been good. I offered a pretty significant discount, plus no shipping addon for US customers just to be able to get my money faster.
I wouldn't recommend buyers do this with a new seller at all. But if you are dealing with someone reputable and they are offering a discount, it's up to the buyer to assess the risk and go from there.
Hey Anarcho47,
Since you're out in the open about doing a limited number of out-of-escrow transactions and I think you're a decent guy, I want to ask you how you think/feel about SR missing out on their fee? I totally understand that buyers not finalizing their orders until very late (or not at all) and the three week turnaround (which is very real and accurate) both dramatically affect your ability to get product and keep listings up. I also know that many, if not all, around SR are very anti-anysortofgovernmentalcontrol so maybe this is something that SR is cool with and believe it is up to each persons conscience. I am just very curious to hear all (well, all the well reasoned ones anyway :) ) opinions on the subject.
And please understand this is a sincere desire to obtain information and viewpoints, including SR's if he would be willing to chime in. It's not any kind of criticism or anything of that ilk. I'm asking you first simply because you made the post. :)
Thoughts everyone?
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Escrow works pretty well most of the time. The 6.23% charge that Silk Road takes does have some customers asking for out of escrow sales.
I think Silk should forbid any sale less than 1btc. Free listing are a sign of dishonesty in my opinion. There was a troll post about it a little while ago, but I actually agreed with the troll.
+1 about the BTC 0.01 listings. It's simply dishonest. If you're going to make deals outside of escrow, just be a man and own it. OR a woman and own it while looking good! ;)
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I DO have a listing for $.01 BTC, but that is only for the ability to leave feedback. I request that all my buyers specifically mention they had a successful out-of-escrow purchase and what they bought (since potential customers cannot click "item" to see what they are raving about).
I have had 3 instances of people trying to "buy cheap feedback" for me and each time I cancel the transaction. I am an anarcho-capitalist. All I have is what my customers think of me. I'm not skimping out at all.
I also had someone whine about me having a separate "shipping addon" for US buyers (about 40% of my business is to the states). Sure that's fine someone can complain, but it's pretty obvious in the feedback which are shipping addons because, again, I specifically request US buyers to talk about me successfully shipping a product to the states and what they think of my packaging (this is just as important to me as what they think of my product, because if my packaging sucks we aren't even getting to that part).
And furthermore, I had two options once I started listing US - one is what I am doing now, and the second would be to create an entire second set of listings for US customers with higher prices to reflect shipping costs. This would be a massive pain in the ass because every week, or day even, I would have to constantly adjust my inventory levels depending on how many domestic vs. US buyers purchased so I wasn't witholding product from potential customers (if I have 5 Canadian listings, and 5 American listings, and all 5 Canadian listings sell, what if 2 other domestics want product but they can't buy it and have to wait around until I come on and adjust the inventory levels. or vice versa). All in all a massive hassle. Much easier for me, which means much more consistent for the customer.
if you are putting up a 0.01 BTC listing saying "hey, buy this then pay the rest out of escrow", I think that's cheap. I have a good reason for doing it - i'm not FORCING people out of escrow, I'm offering them a benefit if they choose to go that route because I benefit too, but I still want the community to know that even without escrow protection I am still doing my very best to serve my customers.
As to SR's fee, I'm not really sure. He could easily add on a small direct-transfer fee for money moving around the site and that would solve some problems. But this way there is a lot of time saved for him - he doesn't have to deal with mediation, notifications, etc., and he's not holding funds (and therefore risk/liability in a world of any possible recourse) on behalf of parties or anything. He is just basically a webmaster at that point. If he wanted to add a small transfer fee I wouldn't object, but his views on the function of markets are pretty clear. I could also just be getting people to PM me and send me BTC directly off-site, and therefore avoiding any fees. but I don't, and I wouldn't, because I want the rep.
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I have had 3 instances of people trying to "buy cheap feedback" for me
I also had someone whine about me having a separate "shipping addon"
With utmost respect to you, I consider both of those to be dishonest practices. Not to say you are dishonest, you are helpful on the forums and your feedback from customers is very good. That you discuss it here shows that your intentions are good.
In the first case you are getting credit for a non Silk Road purchase. Should I have my mother sign up and fill out a feedback because she can vouch for my validity. That is not how the system is supposed to work. I would not let my other customers from outside of Silk Road give me feedback here, that would be a fake Silk Road review.
The extra shipping is wrong also. You are getting two feedback for each sale. By your own admission 40% of your feedback is double counted. And your user rating is what? Don't you think that is unfair both to your customers and also the vendors who are ranked below you?
Between the 40% double counted and the untold numbers from working outside of Silk Road you claim to have, I think you should ask Silk Road to manually reduce your numbers. Personally I would never buy from a vendor who did either of those things.
Skimping on Silk Road's fees is another issue and I disagree with your justification for that also.
Sorry to be down on you and I do mean it with respect, but all three of those things are pretty bad.
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No, you aren't being down on me. Again, I have explained here and elsewhere my rationale for having a shipping addon and that is not going to change. It's enough to manage orders, dozens of messages a day, packaging, shipping, and PGP without having to constantly adjust my inventory. This makes my business model run a hell of a lot smoother. I'm not changing it. Not only that but it speaks well to my shipping methods - your conglomerate isn't shipping through international customs into one of the most obscene historical cultures of prohibition in the history of mankind. My buyers can know I package well.
It's not like I'm hiding anything. If buyers want to come onto the forums and take issue with it, they certainly can. If you look at my review thread I have left behind nothing but a group of happy customers who say they are getting the best bud for their BTC on Silk Road. including the separate shipping fees for US customers.
I have only done 3 out of escrow transactions. I don't sell anywhere else online, this started off as purely an experiment in branching out my business. So I'm not funneling users from "other sites" to cushion my feedback, two of the transactions are second-time buyers who asked if I could give them a deal for out-of-escrow purchases, and I said most definitely - it's way more convenient for me. The third had never dealt with me before but he wanted a cheap price so I made the trade-off. He can leave feedback on the transaction either good or bad and the community will know. I do this because I want the trust, not because I want the numbers. The numbers come with me taking my product, some of the best on here, and getting it to customers in Canada and the US for the best price I possibly can. The trust = profits, and profits are a customer's way of saying "you have served me and I value your service more than the money I have paid you for it". That is the modus operandi for my life.
Sure, I could be padding my numbers with out of escrow listings, but it's the same listing and I have a large quantity available, so you could click through every single one of my feedback and see that only 2 of those orders are out of escrow and the third should be up any day now. I only get two feedback for a successful shipment to the US, not for domestic purchases. I think that's a big accomplishment in and of itself, 100% success rate shipping to the US from Canada, plus having product hung up in a postal strike for forty days and still make it through.
I know we are competitors on here, brother, but cut me some slack ;) - I'm making the buyers happy and that, in the end, is what the game is all about.
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Anarcho, good post. Got to agree with both sides though. I agree with the way you want to do things, as you seem a little more profit driven then other vendors on here, which I have to respect.
But KB also has a point, what you are doing isn't fair to other vendors who chose to play by the rules.
You have to decide how important that is to you.
I got to respect the shit out you for saying this is the way you doing things and it wont change though.
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I very rarely go outside escrow, I will have a release escrow before sending listing. This is due to the fact that I don't want to send more than a few pills and either have the person claim they didn't receive or something. I usually will do regular escrow with a limited amount that I will send. they can buy as much as i have available. The only time I ever totally bypass SR is when the buyer asks me too.
Most of opiate buyers are honest. But that small percentage that try to get something for free by claiming they were shorted or it didnt arrive just pisses me off. I know it the nature of opiates, people want their fix and some will do whatever it takes to get one. Some vendors can afford some kind of leakage, but I can't.. I will never force anyone to release before sending or go outside of escrow. If I do offer those options, I usually give a financial break to make it worth the risk for the buyer..
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I just use escrow, and thank each person that puts enough trust in me to pre-release though I would never ask them too.
Peace,
DigitalAlch
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I don't tell people to go outside of escrow, but I have a lot of requests for it because I do discounts. Also I won't take in-escrow from newbs to the site, since my little buyer-scam run in late August. That costs to much to NOT do anything with the new stats to make my cashflow more iron-clad.
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^ Completely agree, hashuk.
A lot of sellers have already come and gone since the site first upped. Especially some of the big cannabis vendors in US. Not necessarily for any legal reasons either, I think just because this really is more work than f2f selling, and requires a bit more of an iron stomach and reserve to ride out the currency fluctuations and time to convert to cash-in-hand. Luckily I do offshore business totally unrelated to the illicit industries, so i have channels in place to migrate these oprations through a non-reporting, non-extradition banking zone. I am lucky to have them, and it's only because someone in my family already did.
It's something that seems so cool at first, but it does require a massive commitment and a whole new level of consistency. This is a fickle business, to boot. It's a tough go, even with the extra margins for all of the headaches.