Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: RickyRango on July 18, 2011, 11:06 pm
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I'm sure a lot of you are already familiar with the 5th amendment, not incriminating yourself and all that to the police, but I think it may help to post some resources explaining your rights and how you can help yourself should you be detained by the cops.
http://www.resist.com/donttalktothecops.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyokKFIecIo&feature=related
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Good stuff. Never talk to cops is always rule one to staying out of a cage. Talking to the cops can only incriminate you. They know this and this is why when pulling you over they ask all kinds of questions you are not to answer like: Where are you headed, where are you coming from, did you know you ______________. Also never let cops in your house or open the door for them. If they had enough to arrest you, they will come in with a warrant and arrest you. If they need enough to get a warrant they will knock on your door and ask questions until you give them enough information.
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Have you ever watched 48 hours? the detectives are always saying "this is your only chance to come clean and for us to help you" then they spill their guts hoping for their help, instead, they just handed the detectives their case on a silver platter. Watch that show, its a perfect example on what NOT to do..
I think i've only seen one or two people keep their mouths shut. and one of them totally walked.(even though they pretty much knew he did it, just couldn't prove it)
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+1
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I'm sure a lot of you are already familiar with the 5th amendment, not incriminating yourself and all that to the police, but I think it may help to post some resources explaining your rights and how you can help yourself should you be detained by the cops.
http://www.resist.com/donttalktothecops.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyokKFIecIo&feature=related
That first link looks like a white power website.
Its got a link to Tom Metzger.
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if you want to learn how to deal with the cops,or about courts, or about your rights,or anything to do with the goverment,listen to the anti-terrorist, he knows his shit,love listening to him,have all his books.lol...
heres just one of his vids that has to do with dealing with the pigs-split into parts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkVe2-3eZ34
i highly recommend this vid out of all of them-standing in court-split into parts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76ZEBq66gzg&feature=related
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Bump... The more you talk, the less you'll walk. Unfortunately when the pressure's on it's easy to crack. I got told once when I was young and being drilled by a cop about being in a stolen car, ' you can lie to me but if you lie in court it's perjury'. It worked and I admitted to driving it. I'm a lot older and wiser now.
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the only reason cops ever want to talk is to get enough info to arrest someone. they dont want to help you, or anyone else, all they want to do is make an arrest. never forget this.
if they are asking you questions, its because they dont have enough information yet. the second they get enough information, they slap on the handcuffs. and dont think they wont make up information they need as they go along. want to see a cop lie? go to court. they lie on the stand all the fucking time.
talking about exercising your civil rights in a situation like this is one thing, but having seen far too many civil rights violated by the police, i can tell you that it rarely works out in your favor. cops do what the fuck they want. stay out of their way if you want to stay safe and free.
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Tell them you don't understand how the question is relevent, or you don't remember, or you haven't consented to being questioned. Ask them if you are lawfully obligated to answer their questions - they will have to say no. Then just say "okay great, I will exercise that right then. You guys have any coffee?"
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I'm sure a lot of you are already familiar with the 5th amendment, not incriminating yourself and all that to the police, but I think it may help to post some resources explaining your rights and how you can help yourself should you be detained by the cops.
http://www.resist.com/donttalktothecops.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyokKFIecIo&feature=related
That first link looks like a white power website.
Its got a link to Tom Metzger.
It is, but the posted link is just about keeping quiet when questioned by the police. Whether you agree or disagree with Metzger, it's good advice that we can use.
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Ask them if you are lawfully obligated to answer their questions - they will have to say no. Then just say "okay great, I will exercise that right then. You guys have any coffee?"
I'm not entirely sure this is accurate. LE is allowed to pretty much lie about anything in an attempt to illicit information from a subject, or to get a subject to incriminate him/her self. For instance, they can tell you that your buddy rolled on you, so you might as tell me the truth now....Or they can say they've watched you enter a certain building, when in fact they have not, in order to get a confession from you...That sort of thing. Hell, you can ask an undercover if he is cop, he can legally say no, and turn around and bust you five minutes later. I don't think it would be stretch for them to lie about your right to remain silent.
Even a cop's failure to read the old familiar Miranda warning, while still a technical requirement, is being overlooked by courts all the time. So while there may be a law on the books somewhere stating that a cop must be truthful when asked if lawfully obligated to speak to them, good luck getting a court to rule in your favor on it.
Bottom line, when dealing with a cop, be courteous (even if it kills you). Try to answer any harmless, routine questions honestly. Yes, I know the thousand questions they throw out are designed to get you talking in the first place, but realistically, if the cop thinks you are being upfront with him, it lessens any suspicions about you he may have. If asked your destination, just say "doing some shopping" and when he says where, say something like "the mall." You want to be vague, but also give the cop reason to trust you.
I've had more speeding tickets than I can remember; I'm really surprised they still let me drive :). And I was ridin' dirty on practically every stop, but I've never been busted for any contraband. Most of the time I was dressed nice (my job requires it), was polite to the officer, and answered questions either truthfully or damn sincerely. Even the "did you know you where driving 100 mph" question. Yes, I realize I had just incriminated myself in traffic court, but hell, he probably had me on radar anyway, and at least now I seem honest and cooperative to the cop, hopefully enough to remove further suspicion.
Obviously, if questions progress to the "anything in here I should know about" kind, then you need to shut the fuck up. Never, EVER, give a cop permission to search, you, your car, your house, NOTHING! Don't get out of your car on a traffic stop unless asked. An officer is allowed to pat you down if he makes you get out of the car, but not actually search your person. He is not allowed to search your car either, unless a) he asks and you give permission; b) he can see contraband in plain sight while speaking with you; or, c) You or ANYONE riding with you is arrested for ANY reason, say an outstanding warrant, maybe. Additionally, the trunk is off limits unless something found in the car would reasonably lead one to believe that the trunk contained contraband. For this reason, if you really must carry your shit with you, it is always best to put it in the trunk. And yes, if you refuse to consent to a search, the cop can legally bring in the canine unit, and if the dog spots on something, a search without consent is legal. There is always a chance the cop won't do that, especially if you've been honest with him up to that point, but if you consent, you can bet your ass he's gonna search.
And for god's sake, don't give more info than asked for. If a cop asks for your address, give him just that. Don't keep rambling on about your two sister and mom and who also live there. If he asks if you know how fast you were going, answer yes or no, but don't elaborate on why you were speeding. Just the facts, please!
Sorry that went a little left of topic. Just remember, a cop can and will lie about anything; they are never to be trusted. Also remember giving a little info is okay, just know where to the draw the line. Oh, and slow down!
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I recommend reading everything here. It covers some more specific situations:
http://www.lawcollective.org/
Added bonus: it isn't written by neo-Nazis.
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I'm sorry, I can't seem to read all of this due to a large cloud of Sour Diesel smoke in my home.
But I will add this-
JUST SIMPLY KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!
Snitches are Bitches and Bitches get Stitches.
~B
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If you are contacted by law enforcement of any kind, and you did not initiate the contact yourself (or maybe you did, sometimes), say the following (or a variation thereof):
"If I am under arrest, please tell me on what charges, and if I am not, I wish to go freely on my way. I refuse to consent to a search of my person, property, vehicle, or effects without a valid search warrant. I wish to remain silent, and to have my attorney present during any questioning. I wish to speak to my attorney before I refuse or consent to a breath, blood, or urine test."
Please know that simply remaining silent is not enough (here in the USA) due to new Supreme Court precedent. Yes, you must speak and communicate your desire to remain silent, remaining silent alone will not cease questioning.
Law enforcement can and will legally lie to your face. Lawyers for the state are technically barred from lying to defendants, but as you know, that probably won't stop them.
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agreed.
But don't answer routine questions. If you fuck up a single thing even by accident they have you lying. Then they lean on you for lying.
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They use routine questions to trip you up as a "foot in the door" if you will. It starts with "where you headed" and ends with "can you step outta the car". This is not everyone's experience I'm sure, but if you are a young white male, a black man, or brown; they want to put hand cuffs on you generally.
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usa cops sound like total dicks!! in ireland the cops cant do half the shit ur feds pull. i feel for you guys.
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usa cops sound like total dicks!! in ireland the cops cant do half the shit ur feds pull. i feel for you guys.
It depends. A lot of this is just 'speculation'. Most of the time, you never have to deal with them. All my experience is to be civil: they've got all the cards, and be mentally prepared to go to jail. I keep in my head the notion that I can do a little jail time, and just calm down, and watch what I say, and 9 times out of 10 they let me go, and if I do go, and if I have to sit in a cop car--or a holding tank--for a few hours, or even get locked up and do a stretch, it's not going to kill me. Sometimes I think people have seen to many cop movies or something. It's like anything else, use a little common sense and don't panic and start blabbering and they usually loose interest and go away.
Everybody chats with cops...just don't give up anything vital and you'll do fine. It's panic that gets you in trouble. If you're worried, call a bondsman, and make their aquaintence...tell them your situation. I try to always know who my bondsman is, and have a friendly conversation: this, to me, helps me maintain a calm demeanor of things get rough. Cops are trying to do their job. They don't worry me. Long as I don't tell everybody in the barroom what I"m doing, I'll be o.k. if I get in trouble.
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agreed.
But don't answer routine questions. If you fuck up a single thing even by accident they have you lying. Then they lean on you for lying.
Absolutely. I should make clear that the quoted text I posted previously is the only thing you should say to law enforcement, whether it's a routine traffic stop or they are requesting to search your home. Never consent to a search. Never answer any questions without a lawyer present.
phubaiblues is correct in that in many cases you should be prepared to be arrested and taken into custody, but having not said anything at all will put you in the best possible position to defend yourself if you are ultimately charged with something. It's always a good idea to keep money set aside for bail, restitution (or in some cases, back taxes), and attorney fees.
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Another one for the "Common sense" section!
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Bump
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*BUMP* keep the fuckin mouth shut
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1. Wait :( if we are posting on a public forum, then we are not keeping our mouths shut.
Security analysts, whether CIA or Homeland Security or FBI or IRS or <endless string of authority>, are required by both their job description and their ideology to read these posts. Prosecuting attorneys probably spend some of their time trolling for rare thoughts to gain better profiles or each and every one of us. Do you see the level of PsyWar in which we're now competing? Open your eyes to what's really going on... but don't stop opening them. Just as Tor has many layers of routing encryption, life has infinitely more complex layers.
2. Security Analysts and Analysis
A lot of what we say and do is input for intelligent computer programs. The output depends on the human aspect of programming. It is much easier to search for explosives--and the list of nitrogen compounds or chemical terms essential for securing and manufacturing--and drugs and destabilization (threats to national security). Before the computer program can perform an intelligent search, a human has to read these messages. They have to understand how we think and perform in forums.
If you compare this forum with that of a woodworking forum or gardening forum, you will see that the dynamics do not vary much. There is always a social group that will develop a kind of leadership. The more knowledgeable members stand out, earning respect for their wisdom, and demonstrating leadership. What is different about this forum, is it contains members of organized crime--although through Rothbardism and not through blood rites or cultural traditions. The crime organization is Anonymous: anonymous criminals that are evading taxes and conducting illegal businesses. For certain authorities, we are enemies of the state. When you realize the level of complexity you are dealing with when you operate on the Silk Road, then you will realize what is at stake.
There is much more than profits or personal freedom at stake. It is liberty for one and justice for all. I am speaking not only to Americans, but to every red blooded human alive and well--able to think and do for those less fortunate than ourselves.
3. Human Learning
I have stirred up a lot shit and come off as a bottom feeder to some intelligent members here, community members, long-timers. The point I have been trying to make is about how we learn. We learn from mistakes. Mistakes are what teach us the most about a situation. "Don't talk to the Cops" tells us not to divulge information beyond who we are (personal identification) so that there will not be any incriminating evidence against our individual identity. If you cannot be linked back to this website, then there is certainly more freedom in what we say and do here.
So, one thing I might suggest is to begin thinking more like a prosecutor, more like an investigator. What would it take to stop Silk Road? What would it take to put every bad mother fucking vendor in prison? In a cage? Dank and dark, so spoiled with disease that no one will ever survive....
4. Enemies of the State
If we are all portrayed as enemies of the state, somehow different from a law abiding human demographic, then it will be easier for Silk Road to be taken down in the inevitable event of capture... Remember, however, that even if the servers are captured, or even a single vendor, that through the pirate lifestyle of the Silk Road--deleting messages, using GPG for EVERY COMMUNICATION that might reveal personal identity, and generally staying on top of the game (THIS Human-Computer-Human GAME)--there are limits to authoritarian power. We have invested time into securing our personal identity and personal liberty, but there are deeper mechanisms at work here. When you realize that, then you will see how revolutionary the Silk Road and BTC is becoming.
Enemies of the State, like bin Laden... That's a scary classification. To clever investigators and politicians, that is an accurate and legal title to hand out to anyone on the Silk Road. The title is also very accurate in light of our technological advancements in criminal techniques--and it will remain criminal until Americans (or any culture) get educated about how crime works... because it is either too profitable for LE to change the current model of ignorance and enforcement or it is too expensive (personally or organizationally) to get over the learning curve. Open Source never sounded so dangerous, but that's what it is. It has created a stumbling block for national security.
America now faces a possible war with North Korea. One thing America is good at when it comes to war is propaganda. Imagine the possibility of the Obama Administration, and/or the next administration(s), begin to cash in on the black market that is the Silk Road. I've mentioned in another post about the price of cocaine and its relation to security with regard to the War on Drugs. It is too profitable for the outright and immediate legalization of drugs for politicians and LE commissioners to adopt and amend. Crime warlord of Mexico and Colombia exist because America keeps the price so high... a 5000% increase in value due to trafficking risk as compared to production and actual fuel costs.... sometimes more.
Do you see how the true enemies of the state are revealed when we observe more and more information? This is the information that prosecutors and investigators are not paid to think about. Their only mission and task is to catch bad guys, not think about Right and Wrong. They are foot soldiers in a War on Drugs, fodder for the machine that is Corruption.
If you want to sidestep the label of Enemy of the State, then you need to invest your time and money in education and personal security. That is the first step in changing America for the best. The second critical step to surviving in a hostile market is to avoid being physically hostile. ALWAYS use nonviolent means to acquire your personal wealth.
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Never talk the more you say the more you are likely to trip yourself up. You don't have to be nasty or combative either. Refuse politely.
Also, never consent to a search of your person or property. It amazes me how many people consent to a search when they contraband and then it is dam hard to challenge a search. When you do refuse politely be clear that they may not search.
If they come to your door don't answer it but if for some reason you do talk through the door. Don't let them in. They will use plain site and for their safety loopholes to search as much as they can.
Likewise don't step outside your house either.
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Would there be a problem with stepping outside and locking the door behind you?
Or is it always best to keep the door closed and talk through it?
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i know of one situation that a young fella (who had a good amount of work in the car) was pulled over. asked to step out of the vehicle, which he did but at the same time locked his keys inside his car. They wanted to search the vehicle.. long story short. the tow truck drivers tab was much cheaper then the ride to county 8)
if they have a warrant they will kick your door in, not carry conversation with you... don't give them a reason to get that warrant by talking :-X
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I will say from my own personal experience the following has always worked for me in getting pulled over at night and making the stop about 10 minutes or less.
1. I always turn my interior lights on
As soon as I see those red and blues light up, my hand goes up to make sure every inch of the inside of my car is illuminated I've always heard cops appreciate this gesture as it makes it that much easier to see who and what is in the vehicle, it also puts them at ease and lets them know you at least care about what they may be thinking or feeling during a traffic stop. It also shows you've got nothing to hide, which leads me to...
2. I always keep the visible interior of my car as spotless as possible
No wrappers, no packages, no clothes, no loose change, no loose cds (if anyone even still listens to those), no fast food bags, no bags from Wal-Mart or Target, no backpacks. If I have any of those things on me, I throw them in the truck. Now my trunk is an absolute mess from the 9th level of hell but no one has bothered to look in the trunk in 12 years. I think it was SleepyEyes (can't remember his exact user name, the fellow that is the ex-cop who was also in Afghanistan) that said something to the effect of "The police feel that if your car is messed up, the rest of your life is probably messed up too". I agree 100%. I also make sure not to keep anything suspicious visible in an area I know I will need to reach during a traffic stop, like the glove compartment.
I worked for a manager that would hire candidates based on what the interior of their cars looked like, no kidding. And what was funny is he was usually right, the people with the messed up cars or dirty car interiors didn't last longer than a few months on the job (because they either stopped showing up or were too incompetent) while the people that made an effort to keep their car clean, even if their car was older, were a better breed of worker.
3. I don't make a move and I don't speak unless spoken too
I keep my hands on the wheel, I look forward until he approaches my door and I don't try to get my insurance ready or DL ready before hand, I wait to do those things until they come up to me and ask for them. No sense in needlessly moving around and making them falsely think I'm hiding something or put them on edge. I also don't volunteer information, I agree with the poster who said earlier "keep your answers short and vague"....there is no need to blabber on about whatever. They don't care. And everything I say starts with Sir.
Its amazing but a little common sense goes a long way. Since I've implemented the above I've been pulled over plenty of times at night but only received 1 ticket in a 9 year time span and not once in those 9 years has the conversation even remotely drifted to "you mind stepping out of the vehicle" or "do you mind if I look around your vehicle". I know my advice is no guarantee of results but my thinking is if I do everything I can to make the officer think I'm an average Joe and not a threat, who loses in this scenario? Nobody.
And I do have a question, why is it people think they have to open the door to their home when someone knocks on it? I'm always amazed at the controlled delivery questions because there exists a basic assumption that no matter what else happens, you're going to be opening the door....to me it would be far better to not answer the door than to take your chance with a potential controlled delivery.
Number 1) is a good tip. That could def prevent a number of things. I have never been asked to get out of my car either. Nor has an officer ever asked to search my car.
Keeping your car clean probably helps like you said. People are influenced by first appearances. LE is no different.
I have no idea why people feel a knocked door must be answered. No one comes to my home without calling first and I don't answer the door if I an not expecting anyone. Not because there is anything illegal in my house (there isn't) I just value my privacy. But anyway, I think people are debating what to do in the worst case scenario.
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i know of one situation that a young fella (who had a good amount of work in the car) was pulled over. asked to step out of the vehicle, which he did but at the same time locked his keys inside his car. They wanted to search the vehicle.. long story short. the tow truck drivers tab was much cheaper then the ride to county 8)
if they have a warrant they will kick your door in, not carry conversation with you... don't give them a reason to get that warrant by talking :-X
This is tricky, because it could raise suspicion. Also, every cop I've met know how to use a slim jim--and often has one in their car. It's a public safety issue if there's a baby trapped in a locked car. That sort of scenario. So, I don't think this is a great way to go.
The advice from karensupreme is pretty awesome. It's solid information, anyway. The closer you look to a successful member of society, the less scrutiny you receive. Watch Cops, and it's obvious why people get preferential treatment--meth and crack heads, dope dealers, and fuck ups are usually easy to spot.
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agreed.
But don't answer routine questions. If you fuck up a single thing even by accident they have you lying. Then they lean on you for lying.
This is a big piece. Don't try to come up with any stories to tell them, it's just not going to help you.
If you get asked questions* to lead you into revealing information/making up a story/lying, respond with (off the top of my head):
Why do you need to know that?
I don't want to share that with you.
That is private information.
I'm not going to answer any questions without a lawyer.
* with the caveat that in some states you have to tell them your real name and possibility also your address.
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agreed.
But don't answer routine questions. If you fuck up a single thing even by accident they have you lying. Then they lean on you for lying.
This is a big piece. Don't try to come up with any stories to tell them, it's just not going to help you.
If you get asked questions* to lead you into revealing information/making up a story/lying, respond with (off the top of my head):
Why do you need to know that?
I don't want to share that with you.
That is private information.
I'm not going to answer any questions without a lawyer.
* with the caveat that in some states you have to tell them your real name and possibility also your address.
Well, be sure that you are ABSOLUTELY CIVIL. "How can I help you?" Don't be combative. Who is combative? Assholes and criminals... If you're an asshole to "authority", then expect an asshole response.
I say stupid things on the forum, and I get stupid, angry responses--as I should. These are examples of stupidity and obstinacy. Behave like you always do--under control, cool as a cucumber. If the cop gets riled, follow his lead... maybe there's a killer on the loose! How can you help the man/woman responsible for public safety??? By not being a threat to them or others.
The majority of people in prison suffer from mental illnesses. They don't go to mental hospitals, because in the 70s and 80s, they started cutting back state funding for hospitals. Now they're in the street. People didn't want to pay for disabled people--even though we have ramps for the physically handicap. And this is true today! Our military veterans are getting screwed left and right if they come back from service with a physical or mental injury....
Be civil. Show love for your fellow man. It's contagious. It really is.
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It's usually not actually illegal to lie to a local law enforcement officer (if it is, it's a misdeameaner) but if you're talking to the Feds, you can get a 10 year sentence for lieing to them. If they are at your door, and you haven't opened it yet (buy a peephole) I wouldn't open it. They can bang on it all day long and I wouldn't open it.
Cops also ask you questions that they can easily check out, once they know that you're lying, they know you're lieing over SOMETHING, which just makes them MORE curious.
Cops can do a 'safety' pat down for weapons, but they are not supposed to be able to go through your wallet, your cigarette pack, etc. although they WILL DO EXACTLY that if you are in a 'sketchy' neighborhood. Also if you are a white guy in a black neighborhood, or a black and a white guy driving around. They know you're there to SCORE.
Be polite, say as little as possible. Sometimes it's better to insist on your rights (when you stand to lose by giving them up) other times they'll let you go. I don't like to let the cops search my car, because even if I'm 'clean', it takes so damn long. So just tell them, politely, that you don't consent (they usually ask, or are supposed to) to a search and try to 'wind up' the interview. They'll give you some bullshit like 'we saw a car that was involved in a burglury that is similar to your car' but that's just to hold you while they ask a bunch of questions, try to get you to lie to them, and then try to figure out WHY you are lying.
Oh, and if you are arrested for a warrant, don't think that they won't search your car, including the truck.
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Go watch every episode of The Wire.
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And of course it really helps to look clean, young, you've got a job, you're not just 'cruising' etc. If you're in a neighborhood to score, and you got somebody in your car (who will probably give you up the minute he is asked) better at least know his name, where you all are going etc.
It's really hard to prepare somebody for a significant 'encounter' with the cops. Remember that you're breaking the law (with your friends, partying, it's easy to be confident you won't be stopped going to or from party/rave, etc) It's only after you've spent some time in jail that you believe that things can OFTEN go wrong, and try to have 'redundant' security. Like NOT drinking a beer while driving (or open container in car) NOT having the dope under the seat or in your pocket. There is UNLIMITED number of things that can go wrong, and only a few ways that things can turn out 'right' if you get a cop on 'your tail'. YOU CAN'T FORGET you're breaking the law. The cops can make 5 mistakes and still go home at the end of his day, but if you make ONE mistake, you won't be going home that day.
And the shit that goes with a arrest-towing and storing your car, getting your car out of storage, police release of car, getting a lawyer (they'll ask for MINIMUM $5,000 right off the top, and still have you plead guilty) You'll have to drug test for fucking YEARS, you'll be on PROBATION for years (first two times I went to the pen was for 'violating probation')
You get to eat boloney 'sandwiches' (mystery meat) and shit you wouldn't feed your dog, you'll have to associate with crude talking tattooed (usually shitty tattoo's too) people who have too many muscles to have a job, people who want to see what you're 'good' for-money, to intimidate, etc. And you'll probably be locked up with minorities (if you are minority, everything I mentioned still applies) At least you'll be able to understand novels like 'Crime and Punishment' that might have seemed exaggarated before, and maybe you'll come out with some minor artistic skills (especially Micky Mouse pictures seem popular) You'll watch your cell mate take 2-3 days writing a letter, with pictures and artwork to his girlfriend, and get to hear how bad he was on the outside. Seriously, it will change somebody from a happy go lucky person who likes to get high, doesn't want to hurt anybody into a bitter and quiet person, who no longer has much empathy for other people. A year in jail WILL change you, and not in a better way.
After a few weeks or months behind bars, you can start to look at public situations differently. You're usually ok in a house, even if the neighbors are complaining about noise, it's on the street that's dangerous.
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And with the SR, you can avoid ALL the scoring problems (which is where I always got popped) and stay off the street. The SR changes EVERYTHING. The SR even fucking EMPLOYS people on the other side of the world, selling us shit.
I'm just LOVING looking to the future-I gave up getting high for YEARS.
Maybe fucking cops and fucking guards will have to get a REAL job, cause there's going to be less people in jail for drugs.