Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: LysanderSpooner on July 03, 2011, 01:01 am
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Okay without risking sounding like LE I've just made my first 4-5 successful (small) sales on SR and I now have a few BTC it's come to the point where I need to think about how I'd go about converting the bitcoins to cash (£).
Could people with some experience selling or otherwise give me some pointers on what steps you guys take to get the bitcoins off and feel fairly confident on your anonymity?
My current plan is to transfer from SR to Mybitcoin or similar, wait a few days then use one of the tumbling services and send back to a different mybitcoin address and then send to one of the exchanges to withdraw. Is this a sound plan? Should I be adding any steps? Making any further precautions?
At the moment I feel confident I'm anonymous but once I get to a point where I want to actually take money out and put it in my bank I want to feel as secure as possible. Help in this area would be highly appreciated.
-Lysander
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BTC >> Tumbler/Mixer >> Traditional ECurrency >> WU/MG with a fake ID.
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Okay I hear a lot about fake ID's but how the hell do you guys do that? Seems like waaaay harder than all the other steps in the process. What's the point in BTC being so anonymous and awesome if you have to somehow engage in getting a fake ID as well? If I had a fake ID then I wouldn't even need BTC in particular... Not being sarcastic here I just would have no idea where to start with something like that? Is it bad to just go ECurrency > Bank account in that process?
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Just use https://www.bitcoin7.com/?ref=7314 to sell your bitcoins and then you can transfer to your bank account through dwolla. That is what I do. If you use the link above with my reference we both get a discount on the trading of bitcoins to cash I believe. If you want some good karma, help a brother out and use my reference link above. Thanks!
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@saladman100
Bitcoins can be traced to your BTC exchange account which can be traced to your bank account if you do that. Sellers here don't want their bitcoins to be able to be traced back to them. A tumbler usually works fine but there are people who tend to be extra paranoid (not a bad thing) about it.
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Would this be a good option;
Btc>LR (1st acc)>LR(2nd acc)>$(no matter what exchange)
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What does LR stand for?
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Lr - Liberty Reserve
There you can open unlimited accounts and transfer funds beetwen. Its widely used so will be hard to trace funds in LR even with court warrant.
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If you use a tumbler, you likely don't *need* a fake ID, but I'm paranoid and would really rather not go to jail.
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What is WU/MG (I googled but didn't come up with much). And where do I get a fake ID?
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WU- Western Union
MG- Money gram
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I thought bitcoins are untraceable which is why they are used here on SR. So I guess they aren't huh? Well I use bitcoin7 because there are based in Europe (Poland I think) so they are less likely to work with US feds I believe then a US company. I could be wrong but if you use a tumbler and then use bitcoin7 and then transfer to Dwolla and then your bank account I think you are pretty safe. I wouldn't worry to much unless you are like some huge drug kingpin on here selling a shit load.
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Just playing devils advocate here, but LE would probably like to thank you personally for laying your MO out like that.
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Xmachina
That is a good point but for modus operandi stated here no LE would know anything usefull.
They still must have a evidence what cleary connect vendor-btc-exchange (not to mention how much such international operation would cost)
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Who is LE?
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Who is LE?
law enforcement, the man, fuzz, etc.
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Couple questions regarding changing BTC to cash. When opening up a Liberty reserve account, one can use fake name, etc when signing up, correct? I think the only one where you have to give real info is if you use dwolla.
Another question is what are the best tumbling companies out there. or is it best to just open up a couple of mybitcoin accounts and then xfer? Im just trying to figure out the safest and easiest way to change btc into dollars. I know how to do it if I wasn't worried about my identity. So, your help is appreciated..
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Its seems to be very difficult unless you are not morally opposed to some id theft. Which I am.
I suppose fake id and wu xfer sounds the most sane so far. But wu is worrisome post dubya.
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I thought bitcoins are untraceable which is why they are used here on SR. So I guess they aren't huh? Well I use bitcoin7 because there are based in Europe (Poland I think) so they are less likely to work with US feds I believe then a US company. I could be wrong but if you use a tumbler and then use bitcoin7 and then transfer to Dwolla and then your bank account I think you are pretty safe. I wouldn't worry to much unless you are like some huge drug kingpin on here selling a shit load.
BTC are quite the opposite of untraceable; because the bitcoin network is p2p every transaction made can be seen by everyone else.
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BTC >> Tumbler/Mixer >> Traditional ECurrency >> WU/MG with a fake ID.
This is the only answer that makes sense. Looks like there are a couple services out there that will take your bitcoins in exchange for Western Union or Money Order (https://www.wm-center.com/)
You will absolutely need a Fake ID for pickup because a legitimate company like wm-center will cooperate fully with any police investigation.
WU- Western Union
MG- Money gram
Thanks!
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BTC are quite the opposite of untraceable; because the bitcoin network is p2p every transaction made can be seen by everyone else.
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So how does one go about seeing these transactions?
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Do a search for a bitcoin address you've used and you will see.
blockexplorer.com
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Who is LE?
An unusually group of armed criminals, a gang by definition actually, that ALL need to read this:
http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html
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Just because you can see transactions doesn't mean you can locate or ID people making and accepting payments does it?
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Yeah, I am still missing the part where you can see transactions that show who people are and where they used them. Like it will say John Smith, Silk Road blah blah blah...
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Yeah, I am still missing the part where you can see transactions that show who people are and where they used them. Like it will say John Smith, Silk Road blah blah blah...
They catch you in the exchange.
If you send your coins to MtGox and cash out to your dwolla/bank account, the Feds can order MtGox to hand over their records and then your coins will be linked to your bank account. If you don't cash out using an anonymous exchange process like WU/MG fakeID, then eventually the Feds can get the information they need on you.
Using a bitcoin tumbler could work if its large enough, but if you are moving large amounts of chase then you still have to somehow explain where all this cash is coming from unless you use anonymous exchange.
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When they busted egold..the carders using that service had transferred hundreds of thousands of dollars through. In the end some of them had cashed out to their real bank accounts and even given the exchangers real names. Crazy right? The owner of egold tracked these people down without even being asked to do so by the FBI. Didn't save him though, we was arrested for operating an unlicensed money trasmitting service or something along those lines.
Which of these tumbler and exhange services do you trust to protect your freedom? All of them if you cash out to your own account.
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i think this will answer your question,
a unique service that allows you to buy bitcoins and sell bitcoins to them at market prices by cash through the mail. 8)
https://www.bitcoin2cash.com/index.php
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BTC >> Tumbler/Mixer >> Traditional ECurrency >> WU/MG with a fake ID.
This is the only answer that makes sense. Looks like there are a couple services out there that will take your bitcoins in exchange for Western Union or Money Order (https://www.wm-center.com/)
You will absolutely need a Fake ID for pickup because a legitimate company like wm-center will cooperate fully with any police investigation.
WU- Western Union
MG- Money gram
Thanks!
Only problem is wm-center is only offering to buy bitcoins for $5, but selling them for $15.
You would need to exchange your bitcoins to LR to get them to buy at the current value, but LR blocks access when using tor,vpn, or a proxy.
A little planing will help you to get a LR account anonymously, or can you have an exchanger convert your bitcoins->LR directly to another exchanger or sellers LR account?
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Yeah, I am still missing the part where you can see transactions that show who people are and where they used them. Like it will say John Smith, Silk Road blah blah blah...
They catch you in the exchange.
If you send your coins to MtGox and cash out to your dwolla/bank account, the Feds can order MtGox to hand over their records and then your coins will be linked to your bank account. If you don't cash out using an anonymous exchange process like WU/MG fakeID, then eventually the Feds can get the information they need on you.
Using a bitcoin tumbler could work if its large enough, but if you are moving large amounts of chase then you still have to somehow explain where all this cash is coming from unless you use anonymous exchange.
FYI: Under US law, Mt. Gox is required to keep all data transactions and account information for 3 years.
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What about using bitcoin7.com like I stated before which is based in Poland. Is this a better option to go through since they are not based in the US?
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Honestly if you run through a tumbler you should be fine. After that it's basically just avoiding the tax man. Check your region's Western Union rules because a lot of the time <$1k or <$500 doesn't require ID, just the receiver informatoin and full sender information (name, location, amount of funds, etc.).
I personally use LR once my coins have been tumbled and sold. I have received Western Union payments with zero issues.
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What about using bitcoin7.com like I stated before which is based in Poland. Is this a better option to go through since they are not based in the US?
I think anything on another continent is better than the US.
bitcoin7.com is in Bulgaria. It was registered on Godaddy by domainsbyproxy.com and seems to be on an annual renewal plan. The server is on 92.247.13.130 which is hosted by the company spnet.net in Bulgaria. What a mess!
The server is controlled by...
(excerpt from bitcoin7)
"the European operations performed by "AbuDhabi 2010" EOOD, a company registered in the European Union, Bulgaria, Sofia
the US operations performed by "Risk Asset Management" LLC, a company registered in Las Vegas, Nevada, USA"
and this funny little indemnification is right on the site...
(excerpt from bitcoin7)
"Bitcoin7 will not share, publish, or sell any user data contained in its databases. However, Bitcoin7 may be requested at any time to share trade data including, but not restricted to, emails, user transactions, and trade data by government authorities. Bitcoin7 will not deny such requests and cannot be held responsible for the leakage of information by third parties whether the action was performed intentionally or not."
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**"Bitcoin7 will not share, publish, or sell any user data contained in its databases. However, Bitcoin7 may be requested at any time to share trade data including, but not restricted to, emails, user transactions, and trade data by government authorities. Bitcoin7 will not deny such requests and cannot be held responsible for the leakage of information by third parties whether the action was performed intentionally or not."**
This is why a tumbler is very important.
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"Silk Road attempted to soothe the dilemma by implementing a Bitcoin tumbling service, a topic that has yet to be mentioned or spotted by the media. Silk Road can aid anonymous purchases by laundering the transactions among the Bitcoin chain, further complicating and puzzling the public code, so finding the transaction within Bitcoin would become more difficult."
does this mean they are already tumbled???
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"Silk Road attempted to soothe the dilemma by implementing a Bitcoin tumbling service, a topic that has yet to be mentioned or spotted by the media. Silk Road can aid anonymous purchases by laundering the transactions among the Bitcoin chain, further complicating and puzzling the public code, so finding the transaction within Bitcoin would become more difficult."
does this mean they are already tumbled???
Yes, but I would feel safer tumbling them more. Also, they tumble to 1 address where with other services you can tumble to as many as 10 which seems a tad harder to follow.
lrp34bqzebcckrhj.onion for some techniques
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Yes, but I would feel safer tumbling them more. Also, they tumble to 1 address where with other services you can tumble to as many as 10 which seems a tad harder to follow.
lrp34bqzebcckrhj.onion for some techniques
The problem I see here is still that SR tumbles to one address (say you send them to a 3rd party tumbling site) and they are tumbled again to 10 different addresses. Then you consolidate the bitcoins from the 10 addresses to one address and sell them off. Couldn't they just as easily trace that? Or, would one simply sell off each address's BTC individually?
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With the built-in tumbling service all someone tracing can really tell is that your coins were on SR at some point. It would be insanely close to impossible to tell the who/what/where, etc. of your actual transaction. If you use a different address for each withdrawal, do the withdrawals at different times and in different amounts, you won't build up a pattern that can be tracked.
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+1 well said
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I think SR should open its tumbler up as a separate service, that way our coins would get mixed in with a larger and less illicitly-concentrated pool.
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How do I find tumblers?
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My current plan is to transfer from SR to Mybitcoin or similar, wait a few days...
Whatever you do, dont do THIS! There are all kinds of forum threads about Mybitcoin funds just disappearing without explanation. I use Mybitcoin because the local wallet has proved a royal pain in the ass, but if you do it, use it as a laundering step, do it in small increments, and get your money the fuck out of there before someone else does! <3 ~smod
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If you want some good karma, help a brother out and use my reference link above. Thanks!
Dude..Just wanted you to know...I used your reference number. Satan will bless both of us...
thanks
Dr. Forsetti
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Thanks man!
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Mybitcoin funds just disappearing without explanation.
Can someone confirm this matter? Currently SR is endorsing "MyBitcoins" as the site to use.
Dr. Forsetti
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Mybitcoin funds just disappearing without explanation.
Can someone confirm this matter? Currently SR is endorsing "MyBitcoins" as the site to use.
Dr. Forsetti
As long as you dont forget your password or use the same pw as on a hacked database nothing will disappear from your MyBitcoin account.
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I use Liberty Reserve on VPN it works just fine