Quote from: IgnorantFuck on February 20, 2012, 03:21 amQuote from: anarcho47 on February 19, 2012, 08:23 pmI would need to see any sort of evidence that demonstrates that information is actually added and retained. As far as I know there is no information that can be transferred without marginal losses of some of that information at the edges. I mean you don't actually see material effects unless you have millions of "transfers" of the exact same data, but you do start to see it.DNA is the most efficient information transfer in the universe. but there is still going to be some micro-amount of loss every time DNA is "passed on". There is no documentation regarding DNA that proves otherwise, that information somehow is magically added from nothing. There is no documentation that proves it is possible to have life, whatever that actually is, come from nothing, even the most basic of forms. Macro-evolutionists just jam a bunch of "time" in there when they can't answer certain questions. We've gone from, what, 700 million year old universe to 15 billion year old universe in the past 25 years? I suspect that number will continue to grow.So if it can't be proven that a cell can continually develop onward and upward to become hemoglobin, I can't accept that hemoglobin is stage X of some simple original cell that had life (information) added from nothing. Thus far the laws of physics don't allow for it. Statistical mathematics doesn't allow for it, because anything other than that specific arrangement of proteins makes the cell become toxic to the body it's living in. How do you answer that 'million monkeys with typewriters' question if half the keys on the typewriter are lethal to the monkeys?Because it isn't a million monkeys with type writers trying to write shakespeare, it's a million monkeys who get a banana every time they write the right sentence. It's kind of obvious you don't get the basic idea of evolution so let me inform you:First off, evolution says nothing about the origin of life. It doesn't answer how the first cell arrived, that's irrelevant. Now here's what evolution is: mutations happen every time something is born. You have a child? Well that child will look different. It's expected. Now let's say you live on a planet where all the kids with longer arms than average live healthy lives and all the people with shorter arms than average get killed. Any children with small arms will be killed (and their genes will not be passed on), and all the children with long arms will live. As time goes by the average arm length goes up, until eventually you'll have kids with such long arms that their dna is different enough to forbid their having offspring with the original humans. That is, essentially, evolution (albeit a bit exaggerated).BEFORE YOU BITCH ABOUT HOW YOU KNOW SHIT ABOUT EVOLUTION, HERE'S WHY YOU DON'T:1. "have life, whatever that actually is, come from nothing" This is irrelevant to evolution. We don't need to know how life started to know how it evolved.2. You assume that without evolution, God did it. That is a complete and utter non sequitor and greatly implies you're trying to rationalize a belief in God by refusing to learn. 3. All of modern medicine and biology are based on evolution. Evolution is why we need stronger medicine and why we frequently need new vaccines. 4. We've actually already evolved an e. coli bacteria.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experimentI'm sorry if you don't believe in evolution, but you can't really argue with facts; you can only be ignorant of them.A bacteria developing different genetic traits but remaining the same species of bacteria is not macro-evolution (what I'm talking about). It does not verify in any way that genetic information can be added as a whole to create a new species, it simply means that genetics can shuffle around within the species (which I agree with. It's actually adaptation, a more correct term than evolution).There is equal (at best) basis for the argument that life started 15 billion years ago from some gases and water raining down in mineral concentrates on earth, versus intelligent design. Neither of these theories could be called science, they are both "religious" in their own right. At this point we don't have nearly enough information to form anything CLOSE to a conclusion, so I would argue that the question of origin is more of a philosophical one than a scientific one. Again I'm not sure how you can argue that all modern medicine is based on evolution. It's based on an increased understanding of the human body through observation and testing of hypotheses, and using our increased understanding of genetics and synthesized chemicals to create things that cause certain elements of the human body to react in certain ways. Just because I think it's ridiculous to assume that we are completely random and that information can come from nothing does not mean that I believe that the pursuits of science are in any way wrong (other than my tax dollars being robbed to teach some hokey shit like "global warming" or the "global ice age" epidemic in the 1970's, or macroevolution as if it is fact.I am for free markets, which have always pushed science onward and upward. There are things happening right NOW that we can't even imagine because of humans cooperating together on a scale never before see in human history. The ability to completely re-grow human organs, limbs, and appendages. The ability to attack the most basic of symptoms to almost every disease that old age brings about. Some people might call that "evolution" of humanity. I call it adaptation. I call it what happens when you allow 4 or 5 generations of humans to actually pursue self-interest in a fairly unfettered way (imagine if there were no state!).We do not know how life evolved and how our planet branched off into millions of species that interact in a way so complicated, your mind would blow up if it could witness all of it and understand all of it happening at once. purporting to know that without actual evidence makes most of this macro discussion one of philosophy. Just like karma. They do belong in the same thread after all lol.